So double xp this morning, I was excited. I decided to roll something I hadn't played before, do some powerranking with it. Some conjurer asks me to group in the academy, I'm like yeah, sure. That's why I rolled in the first place. We get to level 10, about to head somewhere else, see a gnome shifter at market square, level 9. I'm like cool, a shifter, he'll want to group. So I ask, and he says yes. So I have myself a group to power rank with, it all works out. The conjurer gets to level 22, we're about to go let him learn to make a circle and call an elemental, when suddenly poof, ROTD.

I'm confused. Especially when the imm says that we should read up the helpfile on permagrouping. I'm twice as confused when they say that two of us have the same IP. So I ask who, and apparently that shifter did. I had no idea my roommate made a shifter, I had no idea he was even awake. He hadn't left his room. I try to explain this. In the end, we're asked to disband the whole group.

How is this ok? It was one ranking session, during double xp. If our IP didn't happen to be the same, I'm betting we never would've been called there. It was bias, I'm sure of it.

This brings me to my point, I'm tired of having to avoid someone just because I know they have the same IP as me. Even once, years ago, when he was a last resort to group with, we got pulled to ROTD, after I had exhausted every other possibility. I'm tired of getting punished for following the rules. I'm tired of having to treat someone different than I would another character just because I know them. I'm technically breaking the rules by doing what the imms want in this situation. I'm using my ooc knowledge and treating them different based on that. I'm not happy about this situation. It's stupid, and I'm tired of it. We've even made it a point to usually not tell each other what we're playing, but it doesn't ####ing matter, with the playerbase so small, we're bound to still find each other, and even with no knowledge of who it is, get in trouble. Why, though? And to top it off, I was told to stay away from the conjurer who I didn't know. Again, why? It would make sense if I only ever grouped with them, but it was ONE RANKING SESSION. I've been having a hard enough time getting into another character to begin with, and when this happens, I have to ask myself why am I even playing?

I like to think I'm good for the playerbase, I don't grief people, I try my best to stay IC, and I'm sportsmanlike. And yet I'm losing my will to play because an Imm didn't even want to hear me out, it was their way or the highway, apparently. If playing by the rules gets you into trouble, then what's the point of having rules? Should I just always solo rank every character and never group for fear of running into someone I know?

GG.

In short, it monitors #### flags instead of monitoring problems.

PROBLEM:

Why are permagroups bad? Because they create unfair advantage for limited group of people, which in turn makes the game considerably worse for people who don't perma and therefore can't compete effectively.

FLAGS:

Rolling at the same time
Same IP
Grouping with the same ppl
PKing with the same ppl
Coordinating w/o talking IC
Eq transfer


The huge issue is - it is by all means possible to tick all the flags and at the same time not being the problem described. But enforcement is focused on these mechanical flags and not on the problems.

This causes serious frustration to grown up ppl who tend to play this game (I remind you that the average age of players is above 30 years old, we're not teenagers we once were).


SOLUTION:

Stop monitoring #### flags - monitor problems. If you see a perma that occupies outlander and splatters ppl - monitor and punish them. If you see a hell perma - monitor and punish them. Stop wasting your and players' time by cracking down on under the radar characters - it brings no good to the game. There is no harm if I play with my roommate (WTF is a roommate when you're a 30+ dude btw? get yourself a house or something) if we don't steamroll noobs left and right.

P.S.

Funnily enough, the active and notorious cheaters know all these flags and detour them. So ppl who you crack down on are just dudes who in general do nothing bad. Ppl who actually deliberately cheat cannot be caught like that.

While your post is generally right, didn't you get caught?

Or were you banned for forum posts?

Doesn't change my point in the slightest

That the argument that people need to introduce friends is incompatible with the claim you guys didn't know who each other were, prior to admitting you were roommates.

When I got introduced to CF the guys that introduced me didn't need to group with me etc. They just showed me how to log on, explained how to move etc and away I went.

Let's also recall that the argument of people busted cheating hell is that they just want to play with their friends.

Back in 93 it was super easy to tell someone to dial up their modem and telnet in. This day in age, most people don't know what the hell a telnet client is. And I don't think anyone was linking the OP with teaching someone how to play, so the roommate thing doesn't make sense in your post.

Also, in younger years there were more players playing, now if I have a friend take the initiative and create a character, they most likely wouldn't be able to find anyone willing/wanting to group with them at newbie levels when it can make a huge difference.

All very subjective opinions, but not everyone is trying to game the system when it comes to mudding.

Sounds like they were doing their job according to the concensus among IMMs regarding same-IP interactions. Politely, I might add.

IMMs: Word of mouth is about the only way the playerbase will increase. Friends introducing CF to each other is the primary way new players will join us. That was how I found CF. Please stop discouraging this. I get Imperial Council and Hell trips....or passing EQ outside of role. But, no one will play CF for more than 5 minutes if their friend cannot show them the ropes and play with them. It takes a while to get hooked.

I'm a performer on top of the two regular jobs, and I constantly feel as if I could entice a few fellow colleagues into playing since so much can center around "acting" and character development, etc. But there's no way to just point someone who has never mudded before at carrionfields.net and expect them to do the rest. I "should" be able to invite them over and set up my pos laptop and make a throw-away (fully rping) character to help guide them through the academy, answer questions IC as well as verbally next to them.

I get the rule, so I'm not fully arguing against it, but I know for a fact I'd have been able to get a couple players into the game a few months back in my last show were I not having to worry about the IP conflict.

Knowing both parties involved personally and I am not his room mate. I know they weren't cheating. That means nothing to the Immstaff or anyone else in the playerbase which is fine.

When I am at his house I play from a proxy just to prevent this kind of issue but that is me. The problem comes from the fact from his point of view everything was legitimate. From the Immstaff it wasn't. They were doing their job to try and make the game fun.

The problem is since he was following the rules and has been for a long while. He likely feels as if he was judged as guilty without any form of due process and that is exactly what happened. Circumstantial evidence is what you had. He got a warning AND a punishment of having to use OOC knowledge to avoid a character in game even though he did nothing wrong. Yes you didn't shoot him in the face for it but you spit in his mouth.

Did either group do anything wrong? No. It was a misunderstanding that was likely mishandled by both groups. It makes people who legitimately follow the rules to ignore them. On the other hand cheaters make it hard to believe for the Immstaff that this was just an innocent mistake.

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

You're going to want to get a VPN for one of you.

Me and my roomate were given the go ahead a few years back to mud whenever together, we were just told don't PK together and don't give each other gear.

Times seem to have changed though because if you didn't notice before I got a warning not to perma after one ranking session as well, and we don't even live together any more. Just the fact that we got something like 18 levels together in one sitting and rolled up around the same time was enough.

So don't roll on the same day, and VPN, and you'll be fine. With the smaller player base it is way more likely nitpicking is going to be done with regards to rules now, other than blatant violations.

ALSO. Don't be a dirty cheater.

My preference is that IMMs don't warn people. A warning is the same as a deny for me because I'm deleting anyway. A black mark is a black mark and most IMMs don't ignore them regardless of their public stance. If I'm cheating just deny me. If I'm not cheating leave me alone.

Treating every character without bias is incompatible with treating characters who you know the player of differently because of the situation. Those two expectations contradict. Fair conversation to have.

I don't think this has been a major issue in CF though even with lower numbers. People more or less know each other personally and the imms realize that, it's largely ignored as long as there doesn't appear to be a clear bias. Being roommates with someone is an outlier case, it sounds like all you were asked to do is not group with them. A flawed system yes, but a compromise that I don't think is a big deal.

That said, it sounds like you're flipping out about what is essentially nothing to people who were as nice as they could be while enforcing the rules, which I don't buy that you didn't understand, contradictory or not. I'm inclined not to buy your story either because of that impression, you're not helping yourself in this respect with your drama-whore "I'm a victim" responses.

When there's a legitimate discussion to be had about something, everyone's already sick of hearing it or assume it's coming from a place of bad-will, since, in the case of the squeaky wheels (on either side), it's routinely the case. Thanks for that.

I hope Bear Grylls kills you, drinks water from your intestines and sleeps in your stomach to stay warm tonight, camel-boy.

I have noticed a few active perma's running around lately and it's very frustrating. It's really not too hard to figure it out. In the past, perma's were used to grief the game on such a level that I simply have to be in favor of a VERY harsh policy regarding it.

With the player base as it is, 2 or 3 people cheating to work together will have a massive impact. And quite frankly, the game deserves better.

So, if your case is as you say, then I feel for you a bit. However, I'm in favor of HARSHER penalties for engaging in perma behavior. Stomp that #### out. By any means necessary.

“It was bias, I’m sure of it”.
No. You had people with the same IP ranking exclusively together on a double xp day. If you’re on the same IP, you’re already suspicious. Heck, if you’re on the same IP and not even hanging out together, you’re still going to end up watched.

If your IP wasn’t the same and you just grouped together normally, I doubt you would have been tossed into ROTD. I don’t get what is groundbreaking about the issue of same-IP folks grouping together. Back in my day, when I wanted to even BE ONLINE as the same time as my brother, I’d pray ahead of time with “Hey my brother and I are going to be on at the same time but aren’t going to associate”. Then I’d get an imm’s comment on it, and go ahead from there.

If you’re on the same IP with someone, you should in general avoid any appearance of impropriety. That includes ranking together.

No matter if there are a ton of players or few players, of course we all “know” each other. A given char I meet MIGHT be any number of people who have played chars I’ve liked before. That’s entirely different from the expectation that you can freely enjoy the safety of ranking with your roommate. It doesn’t matter if it’s one ranking session or a million, if you and your roommate are on together, you should avoid the appearance of impropriety.

If I sound less than pleasant on this situation, I admit I’m a bit ticked off. I watched the interaction, and the Immortal was treated terribly despite being insanely patient and reasonable. I don’t like or appreciate that.

“I was told to stay away from the conjurer who I didn’t know”
- Given it looked like a perma, and given the discussion changed from “We don’t know each other” to “We’re roommates”, it was insanely reasonable of the immortal to ask you to just abandon the group altogether.
“an imm didn’t even want to hear me out”
- The imm did hear you out, so did I. The imm was reasonable. Asking you all to find a different group was fine.
“If playing by the rules gets you in trouble…”
- It didn’t. You weren’t denied. You shouldn’t expect to be able to comfortably rank with your roommate.
“Should I just always solo rank”
- You’re being silly. Just don’t rank with your roommate.

If it just so happens that it was entirely by chance that you and your roommate ended up ranking together during double-xp, then okay, you weren’t malicious. But even so I’d STILL ask you to break up your group since you’re on the same IP.

I personally find this entire thing silly. You were ranking with your roommate, and you were asked not to.

You weren’t denied, slayed, or anything other than asked to find different groups. I don't think that's an insane or unreasonable request.

-Ish

Sorry I don't want to walk on eggshells to play this game. Sorry I want to treat every character the same as I would regardless if I knew them or not. Sorry that I accidently grouped with my roommate, and sorry for thinking I could have fun with something I haven't played on double xp.

I don't come here to complain, I usually stay quiet or try to be constructive, I don't flame people. But you know what, I might just be done with this game.

Stuff like this has happened occasionally before, and never intentionally. Usually I just go about it and leave it be. But it gets tiring. It's hard enough to find a group as it is sometimes.

But you know what, why should I put my time into this game? Because apparently the only way to keep this from never happening is for us to just announce whenever we make a new character, which is stupid.

But whatever. I guess this the straw that broke my back. See ya.

So I'm gonna take my ball and go home. WAAAHHHHH"

Bye.

nt

I've got a single #### to give...and it's just for you.

gr

I still don't see how asking you not to power-rank with your roommate during double-xp is a straw breaking the back.

Good characters are good characters. People playing from the same house should, in general, avoid compromising situations.

You don't need to walk on eggshells to play the game. You're encouraged to treat every character the same. In grouping with your roommate, all you were asked to do was find a different group. You can have fun with something on doublexp.

Only one of those pseudo-apologies has anything to do with what happened - and even then, the only penalty was "Please find another group".

That's the last I'll say on it.

-Ish

Edited to add Kenny Omega: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ixgufGLvFc

The only reasonable explanation I can come to, is that you as immortal staff can't differentiate if it's two people or one who is dueling characters.

Introducing technology... Any schmuck can figure out how to use a VPN/proxy and just have his one computer play two characters with two clients. Some clients even have this feature integrated into it to have proxy settings.

There is also the "They can talk in real life" argument. You can also do this with discord, steam, raidcall, teamspeak, skype and so on...

The sad part of it being that anything you can do with a roommate on the same IP, can be done with them being across the world and likely being done by people who don't share IP addresses currently. Just because you can hug trees, doesn't mean the playerbase doesn't sees!

The problem is intent. You can't tell intent and just because it's two people on a shared IP shouldn't make a difference in the matter as long as they aren't obvious. Of course the same IP usually triggers an IMPs attention on the matter, but same IP or not, the cheats regarding same IP can be applied without sharing an IP.

This situation is one that I feel has been terribly overblown for no good reason. The complete extent of their "reprimanding" was being told to group with other people instead of someone you live with. Thats all there was to it. Its generally handled the exact same way when we notice a trend with people who do not have the same IP. Most people react well and heed the simple warning. Others do not.

As a reply to someone else in this thread that I can't remember who it was but I also don't care enough to create a second post:

It doesnt ruin a character if someone gives you a finger wagging about something that looks suspect. The extent of what happens is that the rest of the staff becomes informed that Dude X has gotten warned for behavior Y, if it keeps up then something more than a warning is needed. So really as long as you arent a habitual turd/cheat there is not an actual consequence.

It's just annoying when you know you can/do follow rules but you still get spoken to just because you ranked together. After one session. In 2 hours. Roleplaying. Different cities. I believe it was equated to stacking the Imperial Council and becoming Emperor, ranking from 12 to 31. Totally the same thing.

Jerks!

Still love you.

I had no involvement in your situation but I want to stress a few points. Permas are a problem and they do negatively impact other players so it is something that has to be taken seriously to maintain a consistent and level playing field.

Sharing an IP is a pretty big red flag, we have no way to confirm what you are saying and have to assume the worst because it can and has been abused in the past.

You have to understand as well this isn't a public service, if I have a slip and slide setup on my lawn and some kids come play and I think they're ruining fun for the other kids I can tell them to get off my lawn.

The idea is to maintain a competitive balance and perma-grouping drastically affects those balances and general fairness to other players.

Anyway, try to understand it from our point of view as immortals. All the best.

But no one seems to want to understand it from my point of view. As far as I knew, up until that point apparently, it was a perfectly legit group. Whose fun were we ruining? If we were ruining someone else' fun, then that means every time I find a group to rank with, I'm ruining other peoples fun who aren't in my group. I'm fine being pulled and talked to, it's the fact they made us break the group up that I'm unhappy with. In essence, whatever Imm handled that ruined much more fun than any of us did.

I don't care if you were ruining fun in that moment or not, it had the full appearance of a rule-breaking perma. Despite that, you weren't denied, and instead were just asked to find a different group.

By asking you to break up the group, the immortal did the most gentle thing possible.

Try doing as mentioned by me in the other post, or the other player mentioned. Pray, knowing how it will look, that way you're up front about it.

-Ish

I ran into this a few times in the long ago past and the IMMs gave a warning like this to break it up. In the end, they were cordial about it and allowed us to group together over time. What they did warn us about was that if we were doing it often or weren't communicating in game enough, then they'd revisit the conversation. If it were me, I'd simply just go by this advice and make sure you're communicating and not exclusively grouping with said person. I'm guessing that the same IP thing is a coded flag. One meant to stop perma groups.

there was zero OOC communication, everything was in game, and it was just one ranking session during a double xp. There was ZERO indication it was a PERMA, aside from an IP sharing that I had no idea about. That's what I'm unhappy about. They gave that whole grouping exclusively spiel, but again, it was one ranking session. They gave us no chance to have to try to find other people to group with, just forced it on us.

The same IP grouping with the same IP is a huge red flag. It doesn't matter how many ranking sessions it is.

That last sentence is absolutely false.

You were asked to find other people to group with. After saying that, you then had time to find other people to group with. You weren't denied and told DON'T PLAY.

Given what went down, I legit can't understand the dramatic description.

-Ish

Red flags or cheating?