Perma lag. I'm a giant sword spec dual wielding iron swords. He does both better offense, and defense, and I'm perma lagged. He gets bats over and over without real lag. Please explain how this is "by design" or "intended".

1153hp 354m 1126mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) wilderness 3 PM e
The Breaching of the Walls of the Ostalagiah Ruins


(White Aura) (Body of Stone) Erhiadkeb is resting here.
A felar stands here, his face looking haggard by the burden of leadership.

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM das e bash erh
Alas, you cannot go that way.
You can't dash that way!

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM murder erh
Erhiadkeb yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Grord!'
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM cross

Erhiadkeb raises a shaft of pure energy on high, and shouts an inspiring cry!
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Knocking Erhiadkeb's shocking smash harmlessly aside, you slide in your own attack.
Your slash decimates Erhiadkeb!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
You dodge Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

1101hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM You execute a cross-down parry and unleash a powerful kick.
Erhiadkeb's nose blooms in bright crimson as your foot cracks into his face.
Your cross-down parry MUTILATES Erhiadkeb!
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

1101hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
Erhiadkeb parries your slash and retaliates with lightning quickness!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
Erhiadkeb can't get his weapons up in time to swing.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

986hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
The impact deadens a nerve, which tingles with a distant numbness.
Erhiadkeb's quick strike MUTILATES you!
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches.

946hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM cross

Your slash devastates Erhiadkeb!
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash MASSACRES you!
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
Holy tendrils lash out at you from Erhiadkeb's belt!
Erhiadkeb's lash hits you.
Erhiadkeb's tendrils entangle your feet and send you to the ground!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

769hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
Erhiadkeb's quick strike MUTILATES you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

729hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
Erhiadkeb's quick strike MUTILATES you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

687hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash and return an attack of your own.
Your slash decimates Erhiadkeb!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

569hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM
Erhiadkeb continues to bleed from his wounds.
Erhiadkeb's bleeding injures him.
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

583hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
Erhiadkeb's quick strike maims you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

547hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
The blow strikes you in the head, rattling you momentarily.
Erhiadkeb's quick strike MUTILATES you!
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
Your slash devastates Erhiadkeb!
Your slash is forced back by the wide arcs of Erhiadkeb's staff.
You dodge Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

399hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM
Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
The blow pushes you off balance, and Erhiadkeb moves in to continue his assault.
Erhiadkeb's quick strike maims you!
Erhiadkeb has some small but disgusting cuts.

365hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM flee

Your slash EVISCERATES Erhiadkeb!
Your slash devastates Erhiadkeb!
Your slash maims Erhiadkeb!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash misses you.
You dodge Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb is covered with bleeding wounds.

200hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM flee

Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
The blow strikes you in the head, rattling you momentarily.
Erhiadkeb's quick strike maims you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb is covered with bleeding wounds.

166hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM flee

Erhiadkeb whirls a shaft of pure energy to strike you before you can react!
Erhiadkeb's quick strike MUTILATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb is covered with bleeding wounds.

129hp 354m 1133mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 4 PM
Erhiadkeb parries your slash and retaliates with lightning quickness!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash DISMEMBERS you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
Erhiadkeb deflects your slash with his defensive spin.
You parry Erhiadkeb's shocking smash.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
You sure are BLEEDING!
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash misses you.
Erhiadkeb's shocking smash EVISCERATES you!
You have been KILLED!!

You have died, but the Carrion Fields are not finished with you yet!
Your soul is returned to the realms in the form of a ghost.
You will return to your corporeal state in a short while.
Be careful, for even a ghost should fear some dangers!

It's cool that you feel strongly about this, but you're not doing yourself, or anyone who has to interact with you any favors. Wait until you delete.

The skill that allows him to push me into another room, not only does it never fail (not once), not only can he direct it specifically, sending me east, so never a chance to fail because a direction is blocked, not only can it be done while I'm fighting someone else and not him directly, but, it can be done to open combat, and, it appears to have no lag. So I can drive him, he can push me back, and then he can start batting before I can drive again, because his pushing out is one round lag at best, while drive and pull are two rounds.

More, I've had flurry perfected for about 200 hours. Not once since then has it every failed completely, never got the "failed to get momentum before". Just got it, and the only affects other than usual on me were bat.

You guys really need to look at this stuff.

you have such a narrow pov yet go on and on. kindly stop

That's the mistake you and Umiron make. It doesn't matter where you are standing, the things are the things, what it does is what it does. It shouldn't do all these things, without fail, without lag, stacking, etc. etc. etc. etc. Frankly it takes someone like me who is facing it all the time to know all this and show it. Others don't get to see it all in action. It's got nothing to do with who you've played before or what you think, the facts are the facts.

For the most part champion paladin is just not very deathful (like all paladins). There have only been a couple that really stood out and I think they were all played by one or two people who make basically any build tough.


Paladin is kind of a tough matchup for evil berserkers since they basically always have at least sanc protection and decent melee defense(hard to overwhelm fast). Just play positional tactics and you can mitigate a lot.


For example, they Marshall, flee and move around for a few ticks, then lash, then flee and move around, bait them out and try to get enlarge/sanc to fall then blitz them. If you are at half health just retreat and heal up.

Controlling the engagement is the difference between a good and a great villager(since you can’t change as much through gear/prep/gank. I have fought grord a bunch and honestly I could almost replace you with a script since you are so centered on a single approach and tactic. Mix it up bro.

Like is it like trance? You get for 5 but can’t use again for a day or so?

Or can you just keep Marshalling?

Close to a tick in length but I think it’s cancelled when out of combat.

Thanks iPhone and me being lazy.

It's measured in rounds, not ticks iirc. Less than a tick normally but may cross over a tick change.

My recollection is that it had self lag and can fail at times.

There are choices you have made in your build. With those choices it means you are going to be good at some things and bad at other things.
Some people you will curb stomp others you may not and sometimes you will be the one who gets stomped.

I am not going to comment on bat but just as one of the many options for a way to beat a champion paladin if your build was different. But guess what then you would have weaknesses in other areas for some of the strengths you may gain.

Could there have been other things on my end at play certainly! But ill show the part that's important!

Batman yells 'Help! I'm being attacked by the Imperial Warlock!'
the Imperial Warlock: Intruder! Intruder! Batman is raiding the Cabal!
Batman yells 'Help! I'm being attacked by the Imperial Assassin!'
Batman yells 'Help! I'm being attacked by the Imperial Prelate!'
The Imperial Prelate mauls Batman.
The Imperial Prelate wounds Batman.

Batman whirls an eagle inscribed staff to strike you before you can react!
You yell 'Help! Batman is batting me!'
Batman's quick strike MUTILATES you!
Batman has a few scratches.

Batman starts aiming at you!
Batman has a few scratches.

You say, 'I'm Batman!' *** Totally should have said this!!!

You bring a thorn-encased ironwood shillelagh around with bone-shattering force!
Batman can no longer find the strength to wield an eagle inscribed staff.
Your bone-shattering blow wounds Batman.
Batman has a few scratches.

The Imperial Warlock's slash mauls Batman.
The Imperial Assassin's slash mauls Batman.
The Imperial Assassin's slash mauls Batman.
The Imperial Prelate's slash mauls Batman.
The Imperial Prelate's slash wounds Batman.
You dodge Batman's punch.
You parry Batman's punch.
Batman's punch EVISCERATES you!
Your piercing venoms misses Batman.
Your crushing force decimates Batman!
Your crushing force devastates Batman!
Batman is covered with bleeding wounds.

I mean as soon as ppl find out, the character will delete b/c he can't kill anyone.

But yeah, unfortunately for Grord, he doesn't have much ability to drop stats.

1. I've added some logging to get a better idea of how well bat works, against who, etc.

2. After reading the code, Erhiadkeb checks about every box that one can when it comes to things that juice bat, so bear in mind that you're complaining about the worst (for you) possible bat matchup. That doesn't mean you may not have a point, but it's worth considering just as equally as how badly you got your #### wrecked.

EDIT: spellgni

nt

nt

Welcome, great warrior.

Have no way to check, but there may be some preppage going on here. I doubt RBWs were designed to have the advantage against someone who has the absolute maximum amount of preps up. They are, however, supposed to have the advantage against someone who has no preps other than what their class provides. So while the paladin out-tanks him, it could be due to him sporting prot/sanc/stoneskin/aura/shield.

Whether "bat" is poorly designed is a separate question.

Nt

Not only is this a small sample, but you're also complaining about being lagged by a special item, and then being lagged at the perfect time from his skill, which lagged you until you died. Yes, it landed the lag a second time, but functionally you're being lagged no worse than someone landing a lucky bash or trip with cheap shot once.

You're also in among the worst-case scenario where Erhiadkeb has among the best-case scenario of offense for a paladin, and is out-damaging you due as much to his blows vs. you landing through protection, sanctuary, and other damage reduction.

Admittedly, the short lag period for himself makes it much more difficult to "screw up" through over-extending himself. Personally, I have one key issue with the way bat works that I would like to argue for change, but we'll see what (if anything) happens.

gr

Cross makes absolutely no sense against someone you suspect is about to perma-lag you.

I say roll the dice and flurry right off the bat. Your 8? hits already got him down to covered. Use his low hp against him.

Bash? Disarm? (EDIT: Or flee, I mean you don't HAVE to fight the elf paladin.)

Hell I don't know. Cross just doesn't make any sense to me, but maybe I'm just an idiot. Doubly so when you think bat is just SO broken that you know it's going to perma-lag you.

If anything is broken it's how few times a giant sword spec with fourth attack just hit a pansy sniffing elf.

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM murder erh
Erhiadkeb yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Grord!'
Erhiadkeb parries your slash.
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches. 

1153hp 354m 1120mv 27100tnl (-23.18%) civilized 3 PM cross

Erhiadkeb raises a shaft of pure energy on high, and shouts an inspiring cry!
Erhiadkeb has a few scratches. 

This is haste.
Plus sanc, plus stone, plus whatever essence he has from virtues. Idk. But looks like a ####ty fight for someone who hates mages....

I'll reply to you and Bemused both.

Can't thirst. Felar bandit is right there, and when we fight at the giant, entrance to cabal, he has a skill that drives me out to the bandit. It has never failed yet. So, I thirst, he pushes me out, I am fighting the bandit, done.

I have flurried. He has sanc, protection, stoneform, I'm sure others. Even with a high damroll and two iron swords, I got mixed upper and lower case damage, and of course all he does is flee, heal, and come back, all as I'm coming out of flurry lag. So, done.

He is reduced, and flying, so no bash, no trip.

Cursed weapon, no disarm.

This was the first time I tried cross, mostly to see if the marshal skill haste effect made him bleed more. And, despite being a sword spec giant with flourintine and all that, he outmelees me, so I figured try and see if taking out an attack helps.

Of course all of this doesn't matter because other than a first command, I've been perma lagged and die before I can either do something else, or flee.

And yes, if he defended better than me, but didn't hit often, ok, maybe. Or, if he hit often (bypassed my parry perhaps somewhat like bows?) but did not defend so well, ok, maybe. But he does both. With perma lag. With maledicts. With multiple bats in the middle of one round. With the ability to push me into combat with a mob in any direction - and he has done it when I'm not even fighting him directly, he was ganging me and did it from the side.

So I say again this is broken. I'd be thrilled to hear what you two would do differently. Chances are I've tried, but maybe not, go ahead and suggest away. I'm not deleting because of this so I'm sure there will be more opportunities to try it out.

To be honest I get the sense this player is doing it to show just how broken this is. There is no skill or ability here, he essentially does two things. Period. He doesn't have to worry about place, location, etc.

By the way, to the people who talk about thirsting, it's pretty obvious you don't get it. Thirsting is the thing a berserker can do to counter pretty much everything else. Everyone else has access to insane dam reduction, potions, blah blah blah blah blah. And none of those come with the insane drawbacks of thirst. This build effectively takes bloodthirst away (in combination with the felar bandit, as I posted about) and that's just not right. I want challenges. I want rock and paper and all that, but this skillset and the combo with that one mob is just too much. Shrug.

Flurry still works, him fleeing and healing is burning his mana.

Choke/eyejab and discern preps. Hope sanc and/or enlarge drops.

Entwine so he cant push you, then thirst flurry.

This may still not work, he may be your ultimate counter. Then you just need to avoid him.

You're a fire giant, thats a fire wielding Felar. Lavawalk and ignore it.

No, flurry doesn't work. Lots of reasons. Because not doing enough damage, he doesn't need more than a heal or two. Also, he's elf, he'll never run out of mana in a fight. Also he doesn't use mana when he fights, not like he's draining it for anything at all. So that doesn't work.

All the other stuff also doesn't work, including the entwine, but again he can push me away. It's like the bard song, doesn't matter that he's entwined, I am the one moving away, not him.

So yes, all this, plus the mob that should not be summonable, comes up with this situation. And I don't think there ever should be something that really is so powerful that you can't beat it or even survive. It's too much.

You're a Giant Sword/Whip RBW. You're unbeatable to a ton of combos out there.

I think you just need to avoid them.

My recollection is that Marshall uses mana. As does sanc etc.

As a whip spec you have some options to draw out the fight. But your main issue is if you can't get the weapon from him.

If you can, retaliate won't stop you for ever. Champs can be disarmed.

Also if you can bash him before he gets the Marshall off and he hasn't fended either, you may well out melee him depending on virtues.

Also he may be using extra preps, which again means you want to draw the fights out.

What Would Matrik Do?

Not cross

I might do a few things. What you describe, btw, is like 70% of my fights. I'm out-geared, out-prepped, and otherwise just a speed bump to any of the ultra-competitive players.

WWMD

Take the death and drive on, staying in character all the while. Maybe.

Maybe I avoid the guy altogether. Or try some of the things others suggested such as the choke move. I would most definitely keep trying different tactics against the guy until I find one that works, or I give up. None of which would be cross

Though I totally get trying to see if the bleed is worse like it is for haste.

If you think you're going to have to face the paladin, beat the felar chief down to convulsing and take his weapon. Then you can kill it if he summons him.

I find it interesting how you declare there is no skill or ability here.
I mean, he's prepped heavily, which takes a degree of skill and how is spamming bat ANY different than spamming bash, throw, cranial, pincer... You tell me because i don't see it.

Also, there have been probably at least one hundred champions since they were implemented, and its suddenly this huge problem over a decade later? Sure maybe bat could use a tweak, but alot of this is A) a poor matchup for melee classes, B) A skilled player, C) Heavy prepping vs a battlerager who cannot bloodthirst.

Sure there is some discussion to be had but it isn't broken by any means. I love your character but just understand sometimes a rock can't slam through a sheet of paper.

Bat was complained about long before today.

So has practically every skill in CF, that doesn't mean they all hold weight. Bat isn't the reason Grord lost the fight here. I'd encourage people to play a champion (i've played several) and you'd see it is not so easy when you are simply an above average player.

Second. Grord is a sissy, noone cares about his particular complaint. But bat is broken regardless.

Bat is different from throw as it can open combat and there isn't a known counter such as protective shield or wraithform. Although I'd consider wearing a high ac helm to avoid lag, intuitively.

Likewise not the counters that exist for bash, which to some extent includes size adjustments.

If I'm wrong about high ac helm as a potential counter to bat lag, then that's another advantage over cranial, which also misses quite a bit, unlike bat.

Fwiw I played one of the very early champions.

>Bat is different from throw as it can open combat and there
>isn't a known counter such as protective shield or wraithform.
>Although I'd consider wearing a high ac helm to avoid lag,
>intuitively.

There is no counter to lag, confirmed by Frosty.

>Bat is different from throw as it can open combat and there
>isn't a known counter such as protective shield or wraithform.
>Although I'd consider wearing a high ac helm to avoid lag,
>intuitively.
>
>Likewise not the counters that exist for bash, which to some
>extent includes size adjustments.
>
>If I'm wrong about high ac helm as a potential counter to bat
>lag, then that's another advantage over cranial, which also
>misses quite a bit, unlike bat.
>
>Fwiw I played one of the very early champions.
>
>
>


Another thing that hasn't been brought up is he doesn't have to redirect to you to bat you. Making him able to lag you at inners on gangs and what not. Yes I know bash/trip/cranial can do this as well but not with malads (other than some lucky int from cranial?)

Just seems like a huge niche that hasn't been niched.

That can be an advantage to cranial.

Since if the guy being cranial led isn't tanking you he will be stuck in the reading position and unable to flee or do much.

I learnt not to fight djabree at the inners for that exact reason.

Having been changed so that it no longer puts someone not tanked in a resting position. Like many years ago, though I don't remember ever seen such a situation since the announcement.