And alienate the PB from the staff. Do you secretly want to pull the plug?

"Lastly, I would encourage players to remember that regardless of how you feel about this or episodes like it, you almost always lack information and context that we do not. That doesn't automatically make us right or someone else wrong, but do try to acknowledge that reality when not only forming your opinion but specifically when passing judgement in writing on a public forum. Thanks."

Why don't you just post the log and fill us in then? I don't see any reason not to.

TL;DR: The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion is that the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players, cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because the game is less fun to play than it used to be.

But as someone who rarely plays anymore, I can honestly say it's not because of the content of the game, it's because of the prioritization of things that have been put in, and how the staff chooses to react to critique.

The problem I'm seeing right now is that the staff appears to be more interested in being right, than making the game better - and they also cater to a crowd that has similar ideas of what's "right". Before, there used to be a much more diverse staff, who were open to different ideas, were more okay with the occasional joke, etc. Nowadays, it's the hammer approach to all dissent, justification of low numbers due to vitriolic playerbase, and any number of other justifications.

The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion is that the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players, cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because the game is less fun to play than it used to be. I haven't found a MUD that is as fun as CF used to be - but I know of plenty of MUDs that are as fun or more fun than CF is *now*.

Being in management, I can point to a few key behaviors that I personally identify with in terms of not wanting to be around them:

1. Lack of transparency or participative decision making.
2. Blame shifting "fun"-ness of the game to vitriolic players, and not the admins responsible for keeping a game fun and playable.
3. Ousting people from staff who represented a large portion of playerbase opinion and preferences through various methods, direct or indirect.

When people don't see transparency or feel like they can participate in what they consider something very dear to them, they cut ties and move on. That's a healthy person's approach to situations like that, in my opinion. Some people stick around, hoping that they can change opinions through words, but that only works when the person in power is legitimately willing to accept constructive criticism on a real level, and not already have their mind made up on the way forward before hearing out the critique.

When blame is shifted to the "vitriolic" players, it bothers me. There were plenty of cheaters, plenty of vitriol, plenty of multikillers, plenty of full looters, and plenty of other douchebaggery through the entire history of CF. That's never gone away, and was part of the fun sometimes. People grow up - that I get, and sure, it's arguable that part of the decline in playerbase is due to different medium for games - but as a person who has an awesome new HTC vive, a pimp as computer, and any number of other avenues for entertainment - CF fulfilled all of the needs I had for a creative outlet, adrenaline rush, relationships, and a number of other aspects of life that I felt a need to have. My personal reason for not sticking around is consistently getting the feeling like I couldn't affect positive change, because my opinion on what positive change was conflicts with the current/at the time crop of imm staff. I can only invest so much emotional effort and hope into something I care about (Like CF), before I have to cut ties and move on.

The last issue from my side of things, aside from the above points, is watching Imm staff that represented my opinions and the things I loved about CF (How they did interactions, what sort of roleplay they fostered, etc) get ousted through political BS, legitimately being unpleasant, leveraging relationships with IMPs, etc. This isn't limited to other Imms - it's been slowly but consistently happening over the last ~10 years. People who disagree with current higher up staff are pushed out the door with a gift bag of "This is your fault" and a letter jacket from "Not my problem" high school. That OOC interaction and watching it over the years has soured my interactions with specific Imms to the point that I legitimately cannot separate my OOC knowledge of their interactions from my IC interactions as a character.

>But as someone who rarely plays anymore, I can honestly say it's not because of the content of the game, it's because of the prioritization of things that have been put in, and how the staff chooses to react to critique.<

I rarely play too, but it's because my RL time has dried up mostly. Recently I finally accepted this, and my last 2 characters are just casual characters that I don't expect to get anything done with other than some cool RP and a PK or two.

I don't think I've ever met someone who said they didn't want to use Verizon because they don't handle "critique" well. They don't use Verizon because there is a better product out there. Or because Verizon is a bunch of cunts who steal your money. Not because of "how they handle critique". The ####?

>The problem I'm seeing right now is that the staff appears to be more interested in being right, than making the game better - and they also cater to a crowd that has similar ideas of what's "right". Before, there used to be a much more diverse staff, who were open to different ideas, were more okay with the occasional joke, etc. Nowadays, it's the hammer approach to all dissent, justification of low numbers due to vitriolic playerbase, and any number of other justifications.<

Really? It doesn't seem that way to me. The "edge point nerf" was in, to me, a correction towards equilibrium in how the system SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED. And, unless you were on Staff, not sure how you can comment on how idea exchanges occurred then/now.

>The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion is that the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players, cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because the game is less fun to play than it used to be. I haven't found a MUD that is as fun as CF used to be - but I know of plenty of MUDs that are as fun or more fun than CF is *now*.<

I mean, I guess? CF used to be "more fun" for me, because it was new. It was fresh. Ignorance is bliss. The game itself was basically the same. I WAS THE ONE THAT CHANGED.

>When people don't see transparency or feel like they can participate in what they consider something very dear to them, they cut ties and move on. That's a healthy person's approach to situations like that, in my opinion. Some people stick around, hoping that they can change opinions through words, but that only works when the person in power is legitimately willing to accept constructive criticism on a real level, and not already have their mind made up on the way forward before hearing out the critique.<

Did you literally only read the Matrik thread and base all your opinions thusly? Because Umiron/Twist/several other IMMs have actually been a lot more forthcoming in the last 2-3 years than ever before. I miss Zulg too, but Umiron has been doing a pretty decent doppelganger of the Big Z for the last 2 years.

>When blame is shifted to the "vitriolic" players, it bothers me. There were plenty of cheaters, plenty of vitriol, plenty of multikillers, plenty of full looters, and plenty of other douchebaggery through the entire history of CF. That's never gone away, and was part of the fun sometimes. People grow up - that I get, and sure, it's arguable that part of the decline in playerbase is due to different medium for games - but as a person who has an awesome new HTC vive, a pimp as computer, and any number of other avenues for entertainment - CF fulfilled all of the needs I had for a creative outlet, adrenaline rush, relationships, and a number of other aspects of life that I felt a need to have. My personal reason for not sticking around is consistently getting the feeling like I couldn't affect positive change, because my opinion on what positive change was conflicts with the current/at the time crop of imm staff. I can only invest so much emotional effort and hope into something I care about (Like CF), before I have to cut ties and move on.<

Sounds like you're growing up (not meant in a sarcastic way at all, I really mean it) and discovering that hey, the world has a ton of cool #### out there and CF just doesn't do it for you. I mean, saying your didn't stick around because you couldn't "affect positive change". The #### does that mean? Roll a character. RP your ass off, interact with people. That's all you gotta do. I mean, were you expecting to start a new cabal with every character you roll? Is your ego that big?

>The last issue from my side of things, aside from the above points, is watching Imm staff that represented my opinions and the things I loved about CF (How they did interactions, what sort of roleplay they fostered, etc) get ousted through political BS, legitimately being unpleasant, leveraging relationships with IMPs, etc. This isn't limited to other Imms - it's been slowly but consistently happening over the last ~10 years. People who disagree with current higher up staff are pushed out the door with a gift bag of "This is your fault" and a letter jacket from "Not my problem" high school. That OOC interaction and watching it over the years has soured my interactions with specific Imms to the point that I legitimately cannot separate my OOC knowledge of their interactions from my IC interactions as a character.<

I mean, if you had posted this after the infamous IMM departure of 2008-9...I would have been banging that drum with you. But this is ####ing 2016...which IMMs have gotten ousted in the last year through "political BS" (I mean, I'm pretty sure Verathi was being sincere when he said he just lost the time)? And your last line is ON you. If you can't seperate a player from a character, that's on you. I do it constantly with every character I play. ####, I try to pretend like I can't spot certain players with every character they play. Just for example, I've had 3 heroes in the last 6 months. 1 loved Daphedee and interacted with her. 1 thought she had betrayed the Light and was being corrupted by Gaspare, and therefore would not talk to her. 1 didn't give two ####s. If it were up to me (Sam the player), ####, all my characters would roll up and be like "Yo Daph what the haps?"

tl/dr CF just doesn't fit your ideal of it anymore. And it shouldn't. You want CF to be like it was in 2005. Stop living in the past.

Hope all is well with your RL.

.

NT

Nt

> I don't think I've ever met someone who said they didn't want to use Verizon because they don't handle "critique" well.

I work in an industry where how we handle critique is uniquely different from other vendors in our space. How people treat you when you have a bad experience is absolutely pivotal for a lot of people, and is precisely why I left ATT for t-mobile, and why I would leave comcast in a heartbeat if there were a better alternative. When there's an acceptable alternative, even if that alternative is to not use any service, I'd take it if it's a net positive. So yes - absolutely how the other party responds affects whether or not I will use their service. I think you're being disingenuous with your example.

> The "edge point nerf" was in, to me, a correction towards equilibrium in how the system SHOULD HAVE BEEN IMPLEMENTED.

Absolutely not saying that there isn't work being done - but I'm not talking about coding here. I have no doubt the people giving their free time to code are trying to do awesome things for the MUD, and appreciate the work that they do.

> I mean, I guess? CF used to be "more fun" for me, because it was new. It was fresh. Ignorance is bliss. The game itself was basically the same. I WAS THE ONE THAT CHANGED.

The game itself hasn't been the problem for a lot of people - and while I may be putting words in generic "someone"s mouth, I know of at least three other vets that don't play because of their interactions with staff specifically. You're right though - in my case I am also the one that changed - but in this case what changed is what I was willing to put up with to be happy. I would compare it to a bad relationship.

> Did you literally only read the Matrik thread and base all your opinions thusly?

Leading question is leading - I didn't read the Matrik thread at all. My statements come from watching the transition of the mud from when I started in ~2000 to today in 2016

> Roll a character. RP your ass off, interact with people. That's all you gotta do

That's not enough for everyone.

> Is your ego that big?

Implying that this is about my ego with a leading statement is bad form.

>if you had posted this after the infamous IMM departure of 2008-9

That is legitimately when I started playing less, and is a large part of what my basis for the politics statements come from. I was around and active when that was all going down.

> And your last line is ON you. If you can't seperate a player from a character, that's on you

That's a bad assumption in my opinion. After 15+ years, you know who's playing and you get to know play styles - and as much as you can roleplay not knowing, you can't ever 100% truly separate who you are from your characters, and what your RL knowledge is. If that were the case, people would be obligated to RP not knowing anything about anything - pretend to learn the newbie quest all over again every new char, etc.

> tl/dr CF just doesn't fit your ideal of it anymore

I agree wholeheartedly with this statement, and I don't think I'm the only one by a long shot.

> And it shouldn't

I guess this depends on what you mean by ideal. My ideal is fun and involvement, not specific "here is exactly how to accomplish that fun and involvement". There are some things that definitively reduce fun and involvement to me, but I don't have a set "if it's not done this way, there is no fun or involvement". I also have things for me specifically that would personally improve both of those things - but again, I wouldn't narrow my acceptance of alternatives just because I have an idea of what I'd prefer personally.

> Hope all is well with your RL.

Back at you man - as much as I don't play much anymore, the community is still kind of the dysfunctional older brother that ####ed me up in ways I can't express, but you still have a relationship that means the world. GLHF IRL

>TL;DR: The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion
>is that the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players,
>cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because
>the game is less fun to play than it used to be.

That may be true for some people, but for at least most of them I don't think it's for the reason(s) you think, or even the reasons those people might claim. CF is (for a game) very old, and partly to our discredit, maybe a little stale. Players get bored of games. Even when the players themselves don't change much, they tend to go from one game to the next for the sake of variety, amongst other things. To expect that we'll be able to please everyone or to please the same people for 20+ years is a difficult thing to do, but I do believe that by and large we do a better job than we get credit for.

>But as someone who rarely plays anymore, I can honestly say
>it's not because of the content of the game, it's because of
>the prioritization of things that have been put in, and how
>the staff chooses to react to critique.

I'm sorry to hear that, and disappointed that those things make the game unplayable for you despite the fact that you (presumably) do find the content appealing.

>The problem I'm seeing right now is that the staff appears to
>be more interested in being right, than making the game better
>- and they also cater to a crowd that has similar ideas of
>what's "right". Before, there used to be a much more diverse
>staff, who were open to different ideas, were more okay with
>the occasional joke, etc. Nowadays, it's the hammer approach
>to all dissent, justification of low numbers due to vitriolic
>playerbase, and any number of other justifications.

I'm not sure when you mean by "before", but I disagree that the staff is any less diverse than it was then. Smaller, sure, but we definitely have staff of various backgrounds, opinions with regards to gameplay, approaches to policing the game, etc.

>The reality that needs to be confronted in my opinion is that
>the playerbase hasn't declined from vitriolic players,
>cheaters, or "better" alternatives. It has decreased because
>the game is less fun to play than it used to be. I haven't
>found a MUD that is as fun as CF used to be - but I know of
>plenty of MUDs that are as fun or more fun than CF is *now*.

Fair enough.

>Being in management, I can point to a few key behaviors that I
>personally identify with in terms of not wanting to be around
>them:
>
>1. Lack of transparency or participative decision making.

I'd be willing to bet that we're more receptive and responsive to constructive player feedback than ever before, but I wasn't always around so I'm just guessing. I also think we're more transparent than we've ever been before with the exception of rules violations, on which our view hasn't changed since 1994 and I support that.


>2. Blame shifting "fun"-ness of the game to vitriolic players,
>and not the admins responsible for keeping a game fun and
>playable.

I *do* think vitriolic players hurt, but I don't blame them for "ruining CF". I don't think that's our collective position either.

I know this probably isn't what some of you want to hear, but at the end of the day CF always has and probably always will be something that a handful of people do as a hobby for their own enjoyment first and foremost, and that anyone bothers to play it is icing on the cake. That isn't meant to sound selfish, egotistical or rude, it's just the truth. CF is not a product or a startup or something that I feel like we "owe" anyone. A handful of people have years of sweat equity in CF and as long as they/we remain passionate about our game it stands to reason we would continue to develop the kind of game that we get satisfaction from creating. In that sense, it's more an art than a business (which people often try to analogize CF with) in that we do it because we enjoy it, not because we care of anyone buys our paintings. Handing over the keys to someone else, letting players drive us away, or simply letting a vocal few dictate our choices so that the thing we're passionate about and personally invested in might be more appealing to a subset of our players just doesn't make any sense.


>3. Ousting people from staff who represented a large portion
>of playerbase opinion and preferences through various methods,
>direct or indirect.

Believe me or don't (I don't care), I have no idea who you might be referring to. If you care to email me, I'd be happy to hear more because this doesn't seem like something that's happened since I've been on the staff and if it has, I'd want to do my best to make sure it never happens again.

>When people don't see transparency or feel like they can
>participate in what they consider something very dear to them,
>they cut ties and move on. That's a healthy person's approach
>to situations like that, in my opinion. Some people stick
>around, hoping that they can change opinions through words,
>but that only works when the person in power is legitimately
>willing to accept constructive criticism on a real level, and
>not already have their mind made up on the way forward before
>hearing out the critique.

I agree with you.

>When blame is shifted to the "vitriolic" players, it bothers
>me. There were plenty of cheaters, plenty of vitriol, plenty
>of multikillers, plenty of full looters, and plenty of other
>douchebaggery through the entire history of CF. That's never
>gone away, and was part of the fun sometimes. People grow up
>- that I get, and sure, it's arguable that part of the decline
>in playerbase is due to different medium for games - but as a
>person who has an awesome new HTC vive, a pimp as computer,
>and any number of other avenues for entertainment - CF
>fulfilled all of the needs I had for a creative outlet,
>adrenaline rush, relationships, and a number of other aspects
>of life that I felt a need to have. My personal reason for
>not sticking around is consistently getting the feeling like I
>couldn't affect positive change, because my opinion on what
>positive change was conflicts with the current/at the time
>crop of imm staff. I can only invest so much emotional effort
>and hope into something I care about (Like CF), before I have
>to cut ties and move on.

Fair enough. At the end of the day though, if it does come down to what the majority of the staff thinks is the right direction versus what you think is the right direction, I hope you understand why we go the direction we do. Likewise, I certainly understand why if you felt or feel like the game just isn't for you anymore that you'd find something that is.

>The last issue from my side of things, aside from the above
>points, is watching Imm staff that represented my opinions and
>the things I loved about CF (How they did interactions, what
>sort of roleplay they fostered, etc) get ousted through
>political BS, legitimately being unpleasant, leveraging
>relationships with IMPs, etc. This isn't limited to other
>Imms - it's been slowly but consistently happening over the
>last ~10 years. People who disagree with current higher up
>staff are pushed out the door with a gift bag of "This is your
>fault" and a letter jacket from "Not my problem" high school.
>That OOC interaction and watching it over the years has soured
>my interactions with specific Imms to the point that I
>legitimately cannot separate my OOC knowledge of their
>interactions from my IC interactions as a character.

I have to assume you're referring to Baerinika, I guess. I don't feel like going there (again), but if it matters to you or anyone else, Baerinika hasn't logged in for quite some time and her husband hasn't played in almost a year. As for IMPs, only one plays with any regularity whatsoever. So the past being what it is (or isn't), while I think some of you have fair points and reasonable feedback, it's time to start blaming somebody else. Or maybe that paragraph went way over my head and I'm woefully clueless about something, who knows. Again, you're welcome to email me with anything that isn't obviously a conspiracy theory and I promise I will at the very least read it and take it seriously.

> I have to assume you're referring to Baerinika, I guess.

Yep - that would be the one.

> Believe me or don't (I don't care), I have no idea who you might be referring to. If you care to email me, I'd be happy to hear more because this doesn't seem like something that's happened since I've been on the staff and if it has, I'd want to do my best to make sure it never happens again.

The stuff that happened more than 5 years ago at this point is what I was referring to here - that may have all been fixed, but I'm definitely still packing baggage from the Imm above still being a part of the MUD after the stuff that was pulled. When you don't get rid of the bad apples, they sour the whole patch - and the good people leave.

I'll be honest, just reading your responses makes me want to give it another go, but I'm jaded to the point where I feel like I'm just going to get let down again when I give it another try - that's #### I need to work on from my end, but like most, it's hard to build back up that trust after it's been lost.

From qhcf:
http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?2,1082458,1082494#msg-1082494

Let me break down why I'm frustrated watching this and why it makes me not want to be a part of CF:

1. We've set up a system where these points are incredibly useful to compete if you're playing competitively, and still really useful if you're just playing for fun.

2. We've made it incredibly boring to get them.

3. We're angry at people for using automation to slog through the boring crap, even if they're available, and the response is "Well...don't cheat".

How about - instead of saying "Why do these people cheat???", ask yourself how to set the system up so that people don't have to cheat to be competitive or have fun. Mmmmmkkay?

When lots of people do it (And if you're telling me lots of people don't script, I'm going to point out that you're lying to yourself), it's not the people, it's the system and/or administration of said system that needs to be improved. The problem isn't the specific example here - but this is a perfect example of the *mentality* that drives me away. I don't disagree with the points the Imm made, but I also don't disagree with the points that the player made - and instead of saying "Yeah, maybe we *should* ask ourselves why people are doing it", someone is handed out a slay, given a curt response, and left with a sour taste in their mouth.

Leaving a script to do it where somebody could easily run up and trip me? #### that.

It's fine that they want fewer edges. I'm not even angry about THAT anymore. What I AM angry about is:

1) It's not merely less benefit, it's BOTH more effort and less benefit.
Simply put, it was 20k explore for 40 points...
...and then they made it 20k explore but only for 20 points.
...and then 40k explore for the same 20 points.

2) Imms wanting to have manual control over everything. Except they refuse to acknowledge that the staff is overworked and cannot handle it - characters are regularly going unnoticed for hundreds of hours. Playing off-hours was bad enough, and now the edge nerf hits these characters harder than it does anyone else.

The guy did the exact same thing twice on the exact same day AFTER he had already been punished and told why he was breaking the rules. I would also suggest that you start a new thread that isn't so full of other unrelated things if you want to try and open the door on a better discussion about EP related things.


Edit to add: If this same person was punished for trying to pass sweet gear from a hero to lowbie bash spec of his own instead of boting for obs/explore exp would you still feel the need to try and defend him?

An Immortal tells you 'The helpfile says it's at my discretion. You were slain just this morning for the exact same thing. Why you thought it would be a good idea to turn to the same behavior again is beyond me.'

Chances are he didn't. I personally believe him because a self-interested person wouldn't want to waste the time to make another character just to have the same punishment. He can't be too short fused if he was okay with the first slay like he says.

He says he was sitting at the keyboard the whole time and occasionally reading helpfiles, probably with the sole intent of establishing that he is at the keyboard to the benefit of the imm (and therefore himself), which seems to jive with the rules excerpt about botting:

Generally speaking, if you the player are still in attendance to respond
appropriately to any incoming stimuli for your character, you're not breaking
any rules. You the player always needs to be in control of the character.

I think he does meet that criteria.

Especially since he is apparently ESL and may have had trouble understanding whatever was first said to him about it, can you see why he would think it's still okay?

What constitutes legal use of triggers and illegal use of a bot is at the
discretion of the immortal staff, so please be aware that we may ask you to
stop if we deem what you are doing inappropriate.

Discretion is generally a good thing because you can't write an all-encompassing rule set and it tends to help enforce the spirit of the rules rather than just the letter. However, it also says you may be asked to stop if an imm determines that what you are doing is wrong. But for him the first line of defense seems to have been a slay instead of a warning, that may also be open to discretion but the other way of doing it is probably much better. I get how this case is blurry since he was actually cheating before.

And I get if someone doesn't like seeing it, I don't like edge farmers either, especially ones that I think are AFK, it bothers me for some reason and I tend to summon and plague stuff next to them if I can (because if they're playing they'll move). I'm actually glad he got slain the first time, I think that without a warning was appropriate, but so did he apparently.

But I think the guy might not have cared much if he weren't mocked for trying to get clarity on what rules he was still breaking.

pray I sit at the keyboard for two hours.
An Immortal tells you 'Stop farming observation experience with triggers.'
An Immortal tells you 'The helpfile says it's at my discretion. You were slain just this morning for the exact same thing. Why you thought it would be a good idea to turn to the same behavior again is beyond me.'

He took two hours to repeat the process correctly according to the helpfile, got slayed, and then mocked for saying something about it.

With regard to gear passing, no, I wouldn't defend him for that. But I would defend him for something that isn't wrong.

Feel free to continue separate threads on topics as needed, but at this point, the thread has become massive cumbersome to dredge through.

I don't actually have a problem with him being slayed for botting edge points, just that he was potentially slayed again without breaking the rules and most of all I don't think the way he spoken to was at all respectful or conducive to solving the problem.

I get it's volunteer and that's a little different, but I've had a few jobs where policy enforcement is just part of the deal, and if I ever said something like "No, what's "funny" (i.e., not) is how many people's response to being punished is "b-b-but THAT guy got away with it!". You got caught, you got punished. Move on."

I'd be told it was immature, reflects badly on everyone and I might even lose my contract. It's just one of those things where you should disassociate your feelings from the task, or risk doing more harm than good. Even when the other person was being a cock.

Because they're not being paid for it a great deal more leniency makes sense, but it's hard to look at this and say he's wrong to be left with a sour taste over the interaction.

Edges are a complicated problem because some people like them and some people probably want them gone (me) but as a PKer (before and after) I never focused on them much. I hate obs botters and I try to get them killed/otherwise interrupt. :p

1.) I think edges can be nifty but very very few of them are incredibly useful.

2.) if you don't like exploring then don't. I never used to but with my last few chars because of the edge system I have done a lot of low level exploring. I have come across places and content I must have passed a thousand times without noticing. I am glad I did and each char I find something else I missed before.


The topic of bot exploring is clear cut to me. Just don't do it, even if you are at the keyboard. I don't like triggers for actions, they have basically nuked the usefulness of many forms of disarm in their simplest form and can be really unfair with things like chasing and initiative skills.

With Soelela I just made multiple passes at it. It'says so much of a grind if you split it up a bit.

You are complaining about a game that you don't even play?

If you haven't played this game in so many years, how can you actually pass judgment on the state of CF?

You no longer need edges to be competitive in CF.

The current system isn't as boring or laborious as you are claiming. It can be if you make it that way but it isn't by default.

No one made that guy "do the docks" all in one sitting. It was his choice and it was his choice to cheat while doing it. Cheating has never been acceptable. I don't see how this is even a big deal.

Play the game and see for yourself.

I started playing my freshman year of high school after I overhead some other students discussing a staff of striking in the common area.

About 12-20 people in the school played and it was a very social experience. Things that stand out to me are discovering Camelot and thinking jeweled broadswords were the bees knees.

Over the next decade I continued to play. I went off to college and developed dozens of online cf friends. By the time I graduated the number of people playing in my region had dwindled down to half a dozen as players got jobs/relationships/found other interests.

I saw new classes added, cabal purges, cf go down for several months, wand systems change a bajillion times, he'll opened and closed like a revolving door, new cabals came and went. (Bring back masters :p)

Lots of change happened, some people thought were cool and others folks thought sucked. Some of those sucky changes drove players to take a timeout. But most of them came back eventually.

When I entered the professional world my play time dropped. When I got into a serious relationship it dropped more. Getting a pet dropped it a little. I imagine when a kid comes around my discretionary time per week will only be a few hours and I don't know what kind of priority cf will get but I imagine it might be a bit low.

Over all that time CF had been there as other popular games have waxed and waned. The games chance at capturing the interest of young players that have cell phones and tablets instead of traditional computers is low. Let's also not forget that you have to intentionally enable telnet on most operating systems post 2003. The imms have done a better job of keeping CF online and introducing new content then most products that pay their staff. But content alone can't change the fact that as the player base ages they have more demands in their time and even if you removed the grind (which some players enjoy) year on year both staff and players are going to have less involvement.


Now if they can just hold on another 40 years everyone will be retired and we can get back to 100 players!

My point is, if there is a change you don't like then take a deep breath and get over it. Discuss the game mechanics if you want but attacking the staff for something out of their control is counter productive(and childish)


I want to thank the staff and players for giving me so many years of joy and engagement.

Really well put.

Sorry I couldn't make it to the wedding, but my life is like a choose your own adventure book with the ending ripped out.

Hope to see ya around the fields. And hope the new job is going well.

Obviously, first and foremost, no - the Imms are not trying to
kill the MUD.

Secondly, to address your Umiron quote -

> "Lastly, I would encourage players to remember that regardless
> of how you feel about this or episodes like it, you almost
> always lack information and context that we do not. That doesn't
> automatically make us right or someone else wrong, but do try to
> acknowledge that reality when not only forming your opinion but
> specifically when passing judgement in writing on a public
> forum. Thanks."

Having to deal with Umiron WAY more often than most players, at no
point is he a control freak. The one bit of truth I'll possibly
give Mr. HardTruth is that he may not always come across as the
best PR guy. In all my dealings with him, Umiron is very much
like many other coders who've also been maligned at times
(Valguarnera, Zulghinlour, etc) - he's direct, no-nonsense, and a
get-the-job-done sort. I tend to feel like it's a personality
trait of coders.

As far as posting the log of the whole scenario, it's not that
we're keeping it from everyone for our own nefarious purposes,
it's for the players' own sake that we don't spew those situations
into the realm of public knowledge. As an example, I've deal with
multiple RotDs this month, and the entire goal is to address
whatever concern/problem/cheat there may be, punish if needed, and
then hopefully that's the end of it. As with anything, some have
been characters I've had to keep an eye on, others have been ones
I never expected, and haven't had a problem since.

Also, for those who continually whine about favorites, or jalim's
supposed hookups - that's part of exactly why Matrik got the
punishment he did - because he got punished based exactly on his
actions, and nothing to do with who he is or isn't. Most of the
time Imms don't want to know what player's behind the character,
and often don't know. I happened to be on later on after the
original incident, and spent a good bit of time looking into it
myself...and until these threads had no idea it was Matrik who got
banned.

I'm actually rather surprised to find out it was him, as I feel as though for the most part, I've generally enjoyed Matrik as a player. As far as banned - yes, bans are permanent - but perhaps the better term is they're indefinite. Doesn't mean someone can't be unbanned, but it's not going to happen w/o Immortals specifically choosing to remove it. Given the fact that he got banned, a forum crusade definitely isn't the way for it to happen (though yes, it has sparked a great deal of discussion, awareness, etc). I expect the better option to possibly see results would be a civil e-mail to Immortals. It's quite possible, perhaps probably, that he remains banned, but it's the proper route to approach it, if he wants to convince the staff he's not going to run into further trouble. It's also something he'd have to initiate.

Ultimately, I am rather pleased to see that aside from perhaps a bit much passion, and assumption that the Immortals have no clue what we're doing...overall this has been a relatively civil conversation. For that, I'd like to offer at least a small thanks to those involved.

This is a good post.

>Birth certificate when? Alex Jones says you were born in Kenya

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZNlaiWNvqU

Zulgh was maligned? I always thought he was a favorite even among those who generally dislike the staff.

I have never made any claims about Jalims, so I can't speak on that. Though I did confirm some claims about Jalim and Sam in this thread, it was my duty as the trusted reader.

"and until these threads had no idea it was Matrik who got
banned."

From what I've seen anyway, I actually didn't think the imms at the time, let alone the community, did know that it was Matrik who got banned. That's why I'm glad he posted the log, because regardless of what happened, if it lost someone like Matrik it's worth examining. At least we should be aware of it.

"that's part of exactly why Matrik got the punishment he did - because he got punished based exactly on his actions, and nothing to do with who he is or isn't"
People don't want players to get in-game hookups based on who they are. But, people getting individual, reputation based treatment ooc is already a well-established thing. Right? Or else you can't say "No, that's Krilcov, he doesn't get to play here anymore." Your reputation for rule-breaking (I have to admit I am surprised this kind of thing is apparently considered more serious than cheating though) has everything to do with whether or not you are allowed to play, nothing to do with in-game rewards. That makes perfect sense to me.

I'm not still posting about it because I expect Matrik to be unbanned or get an apology (he said he's done and I haven't known him to say it before), but because many of you are at least making an effort to hear out the dissent, I know many people feel the same way and I wish someone easier to get along with (not me) would speak up, because I hope this can turn into something positive.

I'm also not saying freak-outs are okay but I have a feeling you guys would see a lot less of them if you just treated the people you bring there like adults.

Or maybe you generally do and when that doesn't happen it's a slip-up. Because hey, that happens. Maybe everyone on both sides can remember that and make an effort to take a deep breath.

>Zulgh was maligned? I always thought he was a favorite even
>among those who generally dislike the staff.
>
>I have never made any claims about Jalims, so I can't speak on
>that. Though I did confirm some claims about Jalim and Sam in
>this thread, it was my duty as the trusted reader.

My apologies. I had been trying to summarize my thoughts on generally the entire thread into my post, so that was referencing other posts and other posters. My comments towards your posting were near the bottom in the civil discussion part.

>"and until these threads had no idea it was Matrik who got
>banned."
>
>From what I've seen anyway, I actually didn't think the imms
>at the time, let alone the community, did know that it was
>Matrik who got banned. That's why I'm glad he posted the log,
>because regardless of what happened, if it lost someone like
>Matrik it's worth examining. At least we should be aware of
>it.

As far as I'm aware, the log I've seen is a secondary RotD, in which the Immortal was able to determine that Matrik had apparently circumvented his ban (intentional or accidentally). From Matrik's perspective in that log, he seems to have thought he was just unbanned, but the Immortal is more or less just closing up whatever gap Matrik had used. As far as what got his original ban, I won't go into the RotD aspect of things, but when a player is rolling lvl 1 characters that are problems, denying them isn't going to solve anything, which means a ban is about the minimal level needed to end the issues.

>"that's part of exactly why Matrik got the punishment he
>did - because he got punished based exactly on his actions,
>and nothing to do with who he is or isn't"
>People don't want players to get in-game hookups based on who
>they are. But, people getting individual, reputation based
>treatment ooc is already a well-established thing.
>Right? Or else you can't say "No, that's Krilcov, he doesn't
>get to play here anymore." Your reputation for rule-breaking
> I have to admit I am surprised this kind of thing is
>apparently considered more serious than cheating though) has
>everything to do with whether or not you are allowed to play,
>nothing to do with in-game rewards. That makes perfect sense
>to me.

If I understand you correctly, I'm in somewhat of an agreement. Overall, the goal is always for rewards/punishment to be based on the character or current situation as much as possible. Beyond that, we get into more long-term situations, where a player's reputation has more of an impact. Applying to the staff, for example, or in this particular situation reference - appealing to have a ban removed. In that, I think yes, you do consider the reputation as you're concerned with whether there's going to be repeat instances. But keep in mind - the ban happened based on the situation. Asking to get off, to me, would have multiple considerations - player's reputation (likelihood to cause more problems), time since offense, severity of offense, etc. Though we're also arguing over theory, since I'm not aware of anyone who's recently asked to come off (though if they went to IMPs, I wouldn't be aware).

>I'm not still posting about it because I expect Matrik to be
>unbanned or get an apology (he said he's done and I haven't
>known him to say it before), but because many of you are at
>least making an effort to hear out the dissent, I know many
>people feel the same way and I wish someone easier to get
>along with (not me) would speak up, because I hope this can
>turn into something positive.

I, at least, have generally taken it as such. There's certainly a tone of "Bring Matrik back" that is clear people have, but the thread has been much of a discussion and voice.

>I'm also not saying freak-outs are okay but I have a feeling
>you guys would see a lot less of them if you just treated the
>people you bring there like adults.

I'll admit, there's times this can be difficult. Overall, I believe I try to approach a situation with this in mind, but even I often have the feeling a player's trying to take advantage of it, or that I'm being too soft. I deal with this sort of situation frequently in my RL job, and when you're going into situations that say...80% of people or more are lying to you, it's difficult to be interested in holding a discussion. Consider any time you've played a Tribunal, and people start arguing their flag. You're sure they did it, else you wouldn't have placed it, but they're swearing up and down you're wrong. How often do you ever unwarrant someone? Not very often, I'm guessing. Most of the time, by the time an Immortal pulls a person into the RotD, we're doing it because we're confident there's a problem. If we weren't certain, we're much more likely to watch or investigate to become certain.

>Or maybe you generally do and when that doesn't happen it's a
>slip-up. Because hey, that happens. Maybe everyone on both
>sides can remember that and make an effort to take a deep
>breath.

Probably a good note to end on.

This is a lot of drama over an incident which most likely started out with good intent but got derailed by drink and bad behavior.

Participants in the community can use this as a reason to lose it and sour the atmosphere of the MUD in a manner similar to what we've seen in the past, or they can use it as opportunity to adjust behavior.

There's not really much more I can say on it without exact details, which I do not have. And even if I did, I am not the best staff member for rule enforcement anyway.

Edit: I will say this. If you, as a member of the community, still enjoy/love CF, try to think the following..

..does slinging blame at other community members achieve anything positive?
..have I done something positive for this game at any point recently?
..would I be happy to dedicate 5-20 hours of my life a week to this game as a staff member?

I say this because it seems to be a general trend these days with polarized opinions on many issues (not just CF related). To build, it takes compromise and understanding on all sides, as well as pulling together. Things can be lost/destroyed much faster than they are built.

(It might take 6 months to build a house, but you can tear it down in a week.)

This pretty much sums it up, seriously--

"... it seems to be a general trend these days with polarized opinions on many issues (not just CF related). To build, it takes compromise and understanding on all sides, as well as pulling together. Things can be lost/destroyed much faster than they are built."

People just need to chill out. Forgive others, forgive your own missteps. Take a deep breath.

Imms-- why not just acknowledge that Matrik screwed up, give him another chance. Not a lot of harm in that approach.

Players-- play the game for fun; do something constructive for the community, stop blaming everyone else (primarily the Imms) for any short-comings you may have.

Lastly, give up the drama on all the boards as it's just an utter waste of time and energy. Put your energy into making the game fun. It's that easy.

>People just need to chill out. Forgive others, forgive your own missteps. Take a deep breath.

Yes, but moreover, they need to understand that they share common goals and interests.

It becomes a drag as a contributor seeing the same cycle of nonsense over and over from community members.

People get heated and divided over CF because they are passionate about CF, but it's important to remember there is common ground and at least one thing that most players/people who still enjoy this game can agree on, regardless of other opinions. And I'd like to hope it should circumvent the minor differences, and allow for compromise and problem-solving.

It's why, for instance, I might occasionally disagree with Strienat, Umiron, Destuvius, Baerinika, Emnon et al. but a respect for their views and opinions remains, it extends to players too- you'll note most staff try to respond to ideas and give their input, even if they are wildly infeasible or impossible. The common ground is MCGA: Make CF Great Again

n/t

CF, as a game, is already great. It simply needs more players, and it needs the existing playerbase to stop filling the forums with information that would drive new players away.

I think that's much more of a problem than the potential for a anal-retentive Imm to deny their character for using an obscure name from Hungarian folklore. New players come in without grudges and without issues... until they read the forums.

Newbies are just so far behind when they start. Especially if they've never played a MUD or have minimal experience with them.

We just need a way to help them out, IMHO. However, anything that could be implemented mechanically would have the possibility of being abused. If it isn't obvious by now...someone will abuse it. So we are right back where we started, newbies being behind, through tactics, gear/prep knowledge, area knowledge, etc. Because CF is so great, dynamic, and diverse, there that HUGE learning curve.

I started before neo rangers. That change brought around so many skills, with the right combo, it's a completely different class almost. We all had alot to learn right there. Someone who comes in and doesn't have the original baseline forester/survivalist knowledge (vanilla ranger), it's alot to learn of just that class alone. I love the diversity, it's ####ing awesome. It's also a part of that learning curve, as well, though.

Attachment #1, ( file)

I've been a defender of CF. I've been accused of being an Imm cheerleader more than a few times due to my stances against those who want to turn CF into something it isn't. Even the night in question, though we don't perma due to our hatred of cheaters, I was invited along to help introduce this new player to CF and agreed, but then refused when I found out they were all rolling variants of the name Stevers. Quite frankly I'm a CF goody two shoes. I've never tried to sour CF before, and I don't think I'm trying to now, but this just seems heavy handed and hits very close to home. I was so close to being there and two of my best CF friends got perma banned for it.

None of this suggests anything outside of the polarization you're speaking of, which to me sounds like a jab at the two party paradigm so thumbs up, but I've just watched the contractors knock the storage shed down on top of my two best work buddies because they were horsing around on the job. I'll stop voicing my opinions on the matter because of you, Ralt, but I'm still very sad about this. The response over this has overwhelmingly been one of massive disappointment, I wish the staff would rethink this decision. We want Matrik back, even if he wouldn't return, please just open the door.

What this amounts to is a policing issue, essentially, right? I'll point out some things here. The staff side:

- The staff member who handled this probably didn't know (or care) it was Matrik. This wasn't a personal attack.
- Matrik was being an ass. (Hi Matrik, if you're reading this- also see bottom of post) And got dinged for it.
- The actions taken after the RotD are likely to be the ones that got him in trouble.
- Staff members do have tools to try to keep the MUD running without cheating, or disruption, to try to keep things running smoothly and as such have access to details that most people might not see.

So, with respect to perceived heavy-handed moderation:
- It's fine to voice an opinion, criticize, and/or call people out on this, otherwise no changes will/would be made.
- It's also true that MUD numbers are down.

However (and I have seen this myself):
- Some people try to use the rules and/or turn the system against those who are trying to enforce them.
- Some people try to use popular opinion to turn the tables against moderators.
- As hard as it is to be in this mindset for the average person/player, some people are habitual miscreants, or cheaters. They look to game the system at expense of everyone else.

(Case in point: guy who rolled up multiple characters to hoard high level limited gear, and then tried to start a pity party/moral crusade on forums when caught. This was because, in his eyes, this was not a rule violation- he had found a loophole, so the staff were in the wrong.)

When you have to deal with incidents like the above, staying as the "good cop on the beat" becomes difficult. It's fair to say that this is probably the case for a portion of modern law enforcement too.

(To garnish with a real world example: When witnessing a dashboard video of a police officer running down a perp. in his cruiser (yes this actually happened), it looks horrific that anyone could even consider that. An abuse of justice. But for all we know, he may have just been at a homicide scene of a young child, or witnessed a gang shooting up a public area and people getting caught in the crossfire. It doesn't justify what he did. Not at all. But it may provide context as to why he acted that way. The people involved in policing are human, and are not exempt from bad, or awful days. They're not exempt from feeling strongly about things. They're not exempt from making mistakes etc. They/we should be held to account for abuse of power, and rightly so, but expectations of perfect moderation at all times are idealistic.)

Over time, people become weary of shoveling and endless mountain of #### and get jaded. Also, whereas I tend to believe that carrots are a better motivator for good behavior than sticks, some people are just completely unable to help exploiting whatever system is in place, usually at the expense of others. Note: carrots work both ways. Being a respectful and not ruining an Imm's day if they are unfortunate enough to have to call you into the RotD is likely to see better and more lenient moderation. People sometimes forget this. It's why I always pop up on these threads and try to keep people from name-calling and pointing fingers- on a human behavioral level this does not achieve much at all.

>I wish the staff would rethink this decision.

As do I because I think a permanent ban is probably a little heavy-handed, but it's not my call. Also I don't have the details of exactly what happened. So I will defer to people with a better idea and more details. Whatever their judgment call on this one, I stand behind it, though there are valid points raised by some of the more community oriented folks, like yourself.

Also, I will point out: with all of the opinions on this matter, and all of the people jumping in- there should really only be 3 parties involved in this that should matter. Matrik/other permabanned players, the Imms involved in policing the incident, and the IMPs/senior staff if the issue is appealed.

It is probably fair to say that some opinions from the people debating this stuff here are liable to be skewed/biased. We do have a history of players bandwagoning various matters and hijacking the narrative/broadening the scope to push their own grievances rather than speak on the specific incident. It actually reminds me a bit of dissident political movements BLM (in terms of the general rhetoric employed).

A longer post than I intended, but that's more or less where I'm at here.

Edit: A final personal message to Matrik and other party- if you feel you have suffered injustice, you should email the senior staff/IMPs and explain things. On a personal level, I'd probably recommend leaving the boozing out of mudding if an appeal is lodged and is successful, but that's just me.

I do know the staff gets endless amounts of, what amounts to drunkards yelling bacon jokes at police, thrown their way. I do know that people try to capitalize on any perceived mistake by the staff to slander them (I even accused Onewingedangel of it over this whether that was his intent or not). I also know what it's like to drastically alter your life to help someone, only to have them start spitting venom in your face for it. I think that the two banned were yelling bacon jokes and not spitting venom.

I made such a fuss because, like I mentioned, I was invited along. I was instant messaging them while it was happening. I felt like an annoying little sibling then, following them and telling them they were going to get in trouble. And, even though I kept telling them they were going to get banned, after it happened I felt like the parents banished my siblings from the house. It's been bothering me and now that it's in the open I needed to vent, I guess. I can't change the staff's mind, I can't change Matrik's mind. Now uncle Raltevio sits down next to me and says, "It's okay, kiddo. It's not your fault. It's up to them, there's nothing we can do about it."

Oh well, all I can do now is enjoy a 0 luck stat for association with Matrik. Sorry, bacon joke.

Participants in the community can use this as a reason to lose it and sour the atmosphere of the MUD in a manner similar to what we've seen in the past, or they can use it as opportunity to adjust behavior.

^-- This is a party right? And your users are the guests. All 30 of them better ackrite or they can gtfo amirite?

Fwiw I don't even know what this thread is about. Saw a funny post on Dios and dropped by. Still you guys need to just stop projecting your expectations on the people nice enough to even care you still exist.

I consider both the staff and the players to be part of the community.

I'm amused that you posted this, since I saw this and was about to make my own post. Could there be a more perfect example than the thread that just got locked?

Umiron is one of the worst admins this game has ever had. What a sad little control freak, really. He refuses to bring even one iota of transparency into the administration of this game, and then tries to use the lack of transparency as a sort of rhetorical "gotcha!" whenever he's called out on his bad behavior.

The worst thing about him isn't really that, though. He's just another example of a cf imm who doesn't seem to understand that if your PR skills are about as appealing as a sunbaked turd, you're going to drive the playerbase away. There are like fifteen people left playing this game, and the reason isn't that muds are old or that people don't want to play them anymore - there are still successful muds out there. The reason is that you've continually defecated all over your players and expected them to stick around.

They didn't.

They left.

All that's left are poisonous individuals and sycophants. Matrik, on the other hand, is actually an extremely good influence on the game, and frankly if I was him I'd feel like the biggest cuck in the universe if I continued to play this game even if you apologized to him and unbanned him. The best thing that could happen to this mud is if you just GTFO forever along with almost everybody on the immstaff except for Sacer and Ralt. They seem to be the only ones left with good attitudes.

Take this quote for instance. "That is the extent of the public discourse we'll allow on this subject and these forums." Really? What a sad, sad little man you are. Does it make your weewee all hard to exercise your authority on a text-based game? Guess what: if you were worth anything at all as a good influence on CF, you'd understand that just as much as it's a privilege to play this game, it's a privilege for you to retain each and every player. You forget that, because you're a scumbag and a loser, and you think you can shovel abuse on players and expect them to just take it. Normal human beings don't do that, though. They walk away. And that's why nobody is playing this game anymore.

Sam, you want to know why their default choice is "not to communicate"? It's because the people currently in charge are tiny, weird little control freaks like Umi. And control freaks don't want to be held accountable for their asinine behavior. Let me explain to you just how crazy this guy is: in order to "catch" Matrik playing from work, or whatever, he has in all likelihood created a script which compares the CF IP banlist to server logs of forum logins and/or cookies. Frankly, this is totally nuts, particularly at a time when almost no one is playing CF. The truth is, if you want to play CF and are permabanned, you can - I am permabanned on my main IP, and currently have a hero and they will never figure out which one I am or punish me for it - but the fact that they'd go through so much trouble to create gestapo software is just mindblowing to me. The fact that they'd permaban ANYONE (except, like, Krilcov I guess) at this stage in the game is mindblowing to me, let alone Matrik. Aren't we playing a game where the original TLB, Aether/Torak, is around and still cheating to this day?

Honestly, whatever. Robdarken has the right of it: they're trying to destroy this game. Or, more to the point, their current behavior and administration of CF is completely indistinguishable from trying to destroy the game.

Also that there's waaaay more than 15 people playing the game.

Pretty sure his 'Seek help.' quote is accurate here.

Alas, he's not cheating for most of us. Sorry, Jalim.

I can add Umiron to my collection of cheat IMMs.

Never lose your passion for this game, but maybe redirect it into a healthier expression of helpfulness?

And the only thing that could possibly save CF at this point is dumping the garbage, like I said in my original post.

gr

.

I don't agree with every change or thing, but their inentions are to help. It's clear to me.

There is some delightful irony to be had in your post. You talk about us not wanting accountability, and yet you flaunt how you are hiding who you really are. A+ for that I suppose.

You also mention how there is a shoveling of abuse on players, all the while you are attacking someone.

Its one thing to cheat at the game, its another thing to pass around info in the game. Those are things we can punish a character for or adjust info for if we care enough for things to stay secret. At the end of the day, the root problem of what happened with Matrik had nothing to do with the mud.

It had everything to do with him as a person making a choice to harass a staff member who lacked the means to prevent it from happening more. That's just not okay, and regardless of what sort of quality characters that player brings, or how long they have been playing.

So they had to ROTD some players a bunch in the wee hours of the night. Is that so bad that we have to get rid of one of our best players? The staff gets a lot of venom thrown at them, so I can understand how one might become very defensive, but a permaban for this seems unreasonable. Matrik is a benefit for veterans and new comers alike. I happen to know that the new character block and bans happened after the incident was long over. They weren't trying to hurt the game, they were just having a bit of fun. This decision seems like it was made with an overly sensitive state of mind. Please bring Matrik back!

Even he doesn't think that.

Did he make the game better? Yes.

But by his own admission he hadn't really played that many characters that were high profile in the last couple years.

The best players are the players that drive conflict, create interesting dynamic RP possibilities. You know, someone like the Lich. Or Grimghal. Or Daphedee.

Edited to add: This is not a slam on Matrik at all. Like I said, players like him make the game better, even if they aren't high profile or one of the "best".

That's your perspective, and it isn't wrong, neither is mine. The best players are not those who are high profile, they are those that increase the immersion factor. No one did this as well as Matrik. Perspective, Sam, it's a thing.

If anyone was around who had the tools to newlock and ban when it was happening, they would have. What did end up happening is that higher level imms received an email from said staff member at 3am and responded accordingly when it was possible.

The logic that its "trying to have a little fun" is obscene. Our playerbase has done a lot of really messed up stuff while "trying to have fun" and a lot of these things involve wasting the time of other people (namely the staff).

Edit to add: Also, if he was one of our players with only the best interest of the game in mind, then we wouldn't be having this discussion in the first place.

..reaching out to bring in new players and walk them through the newbie academy is having the best interest of the game in mind. That was the initial action that got punished that started the snowball.

This discussion is a result of the avalanche that followed.

There wasnt a punishment for their new player academy stuff. It was a talk about bad names and lack of ic communication. It could have very easily been done in a way that didnt disrupt the game for other people, which is all that we were hoping for. If you consider a talking to over bad names and a try to show some rp punishment the i dont know what to tell you.

..."I was just trying to have fun" when you are knowingly breaking the rules.

You can always roll Jim the Trapper and hang out in galadon shooting the breeze with quasi-OOC roleplay.

You can't roll Jizzstain the Trapper and shout "DOLLAR DOLLAR BILL Y'ALL!" in the middle of Galadon.

There is a clear delineation between having fun being goofy and "having fun" being a ####. Now, I'm sure alcohol had more to do with Matrik being a #### than anything (though, like me, he can be a #### sober at times), and sadly, had this whole sordid situation taken place behind the scenes, I'm sure something could have been worked out.

I mean, look at the log Matrik posted. He didn't even act like he wanted to keep playing CF (and we've all been there...####, I was there like 2 weeks ago and now I already rolled up a new character).

And even right now you're pretending to be concerned in an effort to keep this ball rolling.

Much like you being an IMM pet.

I'll leave it up to the trusted reader to determine the truth in either of those.

Case closed.

no teenage pokemon allowed

Graatch will be serving you with my appeal soon.

gr

I'm not saying it is okay to break the rules just because you want to have fun, I'm saying that to permaban someone for it while you have players who have cheated or who have claimed to only play to ruin the game is ridiculous. That's what's obscene here. That players cheating, stacking the game against others, players raging out declaring eternal war on CF.. this is okay, but to annoy a staff member? This decision has way more to do with pride than what's best for CF. It was pride that started this whole thing on the players' side, and it was pride that brought it to this conclusion on the imm's side.

Whatever, it's your game. You got rid of a good player though. It's really just too bad.

We punish people who cheat based on the severity of it. Its not against the rules to be a giant turd when you play, so if we start to punish players for things unrelated to rules violations, then we start to lose credibility. None of those things are okay, and those are all things relating to the rules of the game and the integrity of the game. We handle those things on a character level.

This incident is the first (and only one I am aware of during my time as an imm) where we have had a player act out in this manner for this extended period of time. Regardless of the quality he brings to the table or has brought to the table in the past, the antics he pulled are not okay. It has nothing to do with a character at that point, it however has everything to do with the choices of the player. And if those choices are something that he considers to be acceptable as a way to treat the staff and the game at any point then I consider a perma-ban of said player to also be acceptable. Contrary to popular opinion, we do not treat players differently because of who they are (well outside of chances to join the staff).

"It had everything to do with him as a person making a choice to harass a staff member who lacked the means to prevent it from happening more. That's just not okay, and regardless of what sort of quality characters that player brings, or how long they have been playing."

No power to prevent it? You mean like, clicking the x on the mud-client window? I can't imagine anyone but an absolute man-child being so hurt by some text-based drunken antics that it seems necessary though.


What did he actually do?
Did he use his ex-military skills to track you down and send you threatening phone calls?
Threaten to come to your homes and kill you?
Pillage your wombs?

I mean he was a medic so if that happened it's more likely you just misunderstood the slurred speech and he actually just wanted to patch you up or something.

I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this, what he could have done that was so bad that someone has now apparently been victimized.
Do you know how silly you sound?

Who knows. Maybe it was really that bad.

Some guy was saying in your defense it's a shame we'll only see one side of the story.
I think that's ironic since you're the only ones who can clear that up.

Yes, the staff member could have just logged off and closed the client. That being said, the staff member was attempting to prevent the spamming on the newbie channel and the loss of immersion that was present for the other people on when they were seeing the spam and the bad names and the other things like that.

I am not saying he was victimized. What I am saying is that Matrik's actions were done deliberately to annoy/bother/poke fun/waste the time of the staff purely out of spite. Sadly at the time it occurred the only staff member around lacked sufficient tools to stop said headache from continuing for himself (and for the players who were logged in praying about it.)

I appreciate the effort to keep the tone civil, since mine was ridiculing.

I don't have a solution for all of this. I think you hate me and everything I have to say, but some of my thoughts if you care:

Respect has to go both ways to survive. I know there are some people who play this game that get into moods where they won't be happy unless you walk on egg shells around their feelings, and trying to keep them pleased without sacrificing something (usually your dignity) is impossible. But it seems like some of the staff get into the same kind of mood as a response, and the next guy to rub them wrong gets to deal with it.

If you ROTD someone who is doing something that looks suspicious and immediately make a remark that sounds like you are already fed up with them, you're are setting the stage for an awful interaction, feels like someone is bullying you, or like someone has decided you are the enemy, and now you are negotiating terms. They are now dealing with the same kind of experience as the imms who have to deal with ragers (nerf db pls). Anyway it's polarizing. Players see the actions of the worst players and think "wow look at what the imms have to deal with". Players see the actions of the immortals at their worst and think "wow, look how awful the imms treat people". Sometimes the relationship of the staff to the playerbase just looks like a train-wreck.

I feel like people are disproportionately good at remembering bad experiences and when they pick a side (usually opposite to whoever angered them first) they tend to just stay there for years to come.

When this was first mentioned to me (two months later) I replied "Well, technically they are just enforcing the rules, do you expect them to do nothing?"

Then I found out he may not have been treated very well right off the bat and got permabanned for his reaction and preemptively banned from the forums. Meh. Okay, that's pretty lame, seems overkill. But whatever, wasn't going to say a thing. Nothing I can say is going to make it right. It's not worth causing an upset and dragging the mood down.

Then I saw the discussion that comes up about it get locked, and I don't know about you, but I think that's pretty disrespectful. You're saying, we're done with Matrik. We don't talk about what happened Matrik anymore. We won't suffer public opinion to remain public, you can send it through our private channels.

That tipped me to a "side" again.

I wish I felt like I could actually help this situation.

I think its a fair statement that at the end of the day, we all need to remember that its another person on the side of the keyboard. I feel like a lot of the animosity that is directed to the staff has nothing (or at least very little) to do with the actual active current staff and things to do with previous staff. I may also be way off base in that regard.

I cannot speak for the rest of the staff about their opinion of you, but I can tell you that while I think you have done some pretty messed up stuff over the years, I am not willing to completely write off your opinion when you are attempting to have a civil discussion about something.

I also agree 100% that people are better at remembering the bad than the good and it skews perception drastically. I think that locking the first thread was actually a good idea because the whole thing just started off poorly. This second thread is rooted in the exact same topic as the first and continues to be a back and forth, potentially giving more light onto the matter as well as a chance for people to weigh in.

If nothing else I think this shows that both our players and are staff are willing to be adult about a topic that both feel passionate about. Who knows, this may even open the door for some other positive things.

You know... the kind you like to dole out?

I've never seen a more open imm. Most players I think would agree that he's been pretty awesome for the game. Sure, he isn't the best communicator but he's not the bad either. Hell, just read the Umiron responses to all the questions in the forum and you'll see he explains things quite often in a clear and concise manner without attacking anyone. Destuvius's responses usually piss off more people than Umiron, but from what I've seen those are usually just his immediate responses and if you get past his initial gruffness he will be pretty cool with you.

Also remember, you are only seeing the emotionless text of someone trying to relay feelings. This means that anything you read will be edited to show only the parts they think are needed or want you to see. In this way the context and feeling of any post will be skewed towards showing the poster or the posters messaged in a positive light and the opposite in a negative light.

>Umiron is one of the worst admins this game has ever had.

Disagree.


>He refuses to bring even
>one iota of transparency into the administration of this game,

That's a feature, not a bug. And it's one on which the rest of the staff largely agrees. So if you're going to tear down Umiron accountable for a general lack of transparency then you should probably also hold accountable the other imms you "like".


>another example of a cf imm who doesn't seem to understand
>that if your PR skills are about as appealing as a sunbaked
>turd, you're going to drive the playerbase away.

It's not that his P.R. skills suck; it's that he, and most other IMPs, feel no need to treat players who break the rules and/or act like children with kid gloves.

If you take a dump in the sink at a restaurant don't expect them to be super-polite when they kick you out.


>reason is that you've continually defecated all over your
>players and expected them to stick around.
>They didn't.
>They left.

Given they put in place an indefinite ban, I think they're probably fine with this particular group of players never coming back. That's kind of the point of an indefinite ban.

>except for Sacer and Ralt. They seem to be the only ones left with
>good attitudes.

Guessing they take Umiron's side on this and not yours. Should add them to your #### list as well.

>likelihood created a script which compares the CF IP banlist
>to server logs of forum logins and/or cookies. Frankly, this
>is totally nuts

Not nuts. It's called "actually enforcing a ban". If a ban is so trivially circumvented it wouldn't be much of a ban, would it?

nt

Well if not you may want to rethink your PR strat, because ####ting all over the people who play the game is a good way to go about it.

If you really think someone like Matrik should NEVER play this game again there is something seriously wrong with your thought process. Nobody would say a thing if it were a temp ban. And on top of that you feel the need to lock the thread that pops up about it and get the last-word in?

What's wrong with you?

It took several years.

He came back once as himself and then Valg banned him again

But then he proved he wasn't a total doucher and they let him back in the sandbox.

Matrik could play via proxy if he so desired...he said he doesn't want to.

Yeah but Torak should have actually been permabanned in the first place. It sounds like Matrik was just really disrespectful or something, so drop the guy a temporary ban and let the feeling wear off for the next few weeks or so. It's a one-off in 20 years, it's not worth losing the guy.

Matrik's a solid player, might even be the only who doesn't engage in cheating. He shouldn't have been permabanned in the first place, it's a big '#### you' to matrik the person. And I'm just really bothered it happened and they decided to lock a discussion related to it and say "we don't talk about this anymore." They even banned him from the forums. I don't blame him for not wanting to play now.

He doesn't deserve to be made out as some type of bad guy here, I keep hearing about something awful he did but nobody will say what it is.

Maybe.

Did anyone make him act like a douche? No.

You don't get to pick the consequences of your actions, so why act like a douche in the first place?

Don't be a douche and these debates won't be needed.

But then, it seems you've decided to come out in your pack, which is what normally happens after one of you doesn't like the consequences of being a twat. So stop being twats.

I'm also confused. What consequences are we talking about here? Matrik isn't going to play again, so there's no negotiation going on there.

My point is that matrik decided to troll (light heartedly perhaps but knowingly in breach of the rules) and now people are upset with the result.

My point is that the result not only required imm action to come to pass, but it required matrik action too.

Had matrik not done what he did there wouldn't even be an issue to whine about. It is thus within matrik's ability to determine whether he gets any excessive punishment.

And I said as much in my posts.

That's really the only part that looks bad on the IMMs.

But ####, for all I know they said "Well, if you aren't going to play CF anymore why do you need an Official's account?". Not saying I'd do that ever if I was in charge but...yeah.