Why not make it against the rules?

1) Because then I'd get the job of enforcing it

2) Gray areas (this is a long discussion I'm not excited to rehash)

3) You get to be a ghost for 24 ticks

4) As Zulg is fond of saying, "Any damn fool can type quit."

>1) Because then I'd get the job of enforcing it

No fun at all.

>2) Gray areas (this is a long discussion I'm not excited to
>rehash)

Agreed

>3) You get to be a ghost for 24 ticks
>
>4) As Zulg is fond of saying, "Any damn fool can type quit."

And yet, imm comments do reflect the perception that it is poor form shown in multikilling. Likely because we don't want people to type quit.

To more clearly define it as a flaw, let it also lenghten the corpse decay time, so you have to wait longer if you can't walk to your corpse.

I'm not saying I'd take it with every character, but it'd be viable.

>And yet, imm comments do reflect the perception that it is
>poor form shown in multikilling.

Sure -- but people have different ideas about what constitutes it and obviously circumstances do vary.

E.g., as a player, I've had people that I've recently killed try to kill me again or try to raid my cabal again and then bitch when they die again in the process. To me that's completely unreasonable. I feel like there's a sort of informal contract between killer and killee: I won't try to kill you again if you do your best to stay out of my way and, for example, don't keep getting XP in the same area where I'm still trying to kill one or more of your groupmates. The "stay out of their way" clause is important to me, because if I'm a warrior and you're a necromancer and I see you coming towards me on the road, I have to assume you're actually coming for revenge and if so, I can't afford to let you have the first attack if I can help it so I'm going to bash/pincer/whatever you.

We should assume that our killer will kill us again if possible (and react accordingly) and if we do it shouldn't happen.

But that's my idea and not everyone's idea, and I would *hate* to try to enforce that.

I say that because the few characters that have been shown to be yours have all been kick-ass power builds that don't really seem to have much to fear from anyone.

Do you actually play characters anymore that routinely get their butts kicked?

Daev pretty much said the exact things I did, which were 'Learn to avoid being multikilled'.

Calling him out on the fact that his characters are successful, and therefor not really NEED worry about being multikilled is kind of irrelevant to the argument.

I pretty much agree with everything Daev had to say, and honestly it isn't that hard to avoid people. Yes, it will be harder if you don't know your way around CF etc, however some ass-hole constantly gunning for you is a pretty good motivator to learn new places to hide!!!

Just saying, as I said before...CF is all about 'Adapt or die'

-Sarien

although Twist's standards for what he considers to be unsuccessful probably differ from the average player.

I was not calling Nep out on unnecessarily taking preemptive strikes. I've seen him jump on the freebie kill, but I don't recall anyone every accusing him of being a jerk. He is good enough (experience, gearing, prepping, tactics, strategy) that I doubt (expect? hope?) he doen't pad his pk ratio by multikilling: Dave doesn't need to stroke his ePeen to have a big CF presence.

Absolutely. I tend to err on the side of not underestimating my enemies; if I think I could still win the fight if we swapped characters and I didn't loot much or anything from you, I'm going to assume that you still have a real chance of beating me.

>I say that because the few characters that have been shown to
>be yours have all been kick-ass power builds that don't really
>seem to have much to fear from anyone.

"Kick-ass power builds" kind of surprises me. I mean, if you told anyone a year ago that wood-elf sword warrior was a power build, would they have taken you seriously?

Evil conjurer, I'll give you. (Although it's rare that there's more than about one decent one per year.)

The two last characters I claimed before that were, what, Battle scout thief and Nexus assassin? Does anyone seriously consider those to be power builds?

>Do you actually play characters anymore that routinely get
>their butts kicked?

I almost deleted a warrior at 0-2 last year.

I wonder where the heck I was when you claimed them.

It's good to know you feel paranoia every now and then after all these years.

Could we have a PBF stat that states # of unique PK wins? This is the number of different people the player has gained PK win from.

This would reward people who are able to fight more people (evils, role breakers, pure pk characters). I am not sure that I like the notion of that.

Probably 80% of my characters are goodies. 3/4 of those are paladins. I generally have a very narrow range of players that I can actively hunt and kill.

I'd still like an easy way to see how many unique characters I kill. Even if it wouldn't be hard to run down the list of 20-30ish PK wins I usually have and count them out myself.

For the same reason that looting isn't against the rules. That's the game. It's possible to lose respect if done repeatedly or an extended fashion, esp against newbs, just like with looting. But there's a wide difference between tarnishing reputation/respect and breaking the rules.

If a player doesn't want to be multikilled, very simple.
Log out before your ghost timer is up and play that char another day.

However, Battle Commander vs Scion Chancellor, multikilling is great.

I think as a new player I'd rather be killed than fulled. That new player is likely not attached to their first char and probably are slowly realizing how steep the learning curve is, but likely have no idea where to regear to become functional again which makes the game completely unfun for them.

Don't think my proposed rule would interfere with this, since every raid/retrieval attempt is a seperate RP reason for a kill.

1. When you kill someone once every 1 rl hour - is it Multikilling? (My own answer is yes, but only if you are 101% sure that there isn't anything else going on.)

2. When you kill someone once every 2 rl hours - is it Multikilling? (My own answer is no.)

3. When you kill someone, then log off 15 minutes later. And when you login few days later - you immediatelly kill that same person. Is it Multikilling? (My own answer is that technically no. But some players who don't play often really use it to their own advantage.)

4. When you just killed someone at your inner cabal guardian. And your enemy comes back and gets unghosted by fighting your inner cabal guardian just few minutes later and so you kill him - is it Multikilling? (My own answer is no.)

5. If you kill someone and that person sends you 100 really bad tells, and explains who you are and who are your parents and the whole family. When do you feel it is right to kill them again? (My own answer is right after they unghost.)

6. If you just killed someone, but that person came to attack you again (by himself) - and you kill that person. Is it Multikilling? (My own answer is no.)

7. Sometimes you really hate some characters. For example you was playing an anti-paladin with 200 charges and was afk or lost your link. Someone killed you, even though they were killing you for 30 rounds and it was obvious that you was either afk or lost link. Then they full looted you and sent you many bad tells of how good they are right after you reconnected. If you kill that person you really hate many times in a row - is it Multikilling? (My own answer is no.)

8. And the most important question is. Does it matter who looks at it and will it matter what does that the looking person feel towards you? (My own answer is that some people get punished for doing totally the same things as someone who gets rewarded for doing the same.)




P.S. Now when i think about it more, it's not that hard to imagine good login: You login. Then retrieve. Then kill everybody you can find and can actually kill. Raid everybody you can. Then regather preparations and gold. Explore somewhere to get an item or two when you have an ally. Kill everybody you can find and can actually kill again. Logout. Estimated time - 2,5 hours

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. No

4. No

5. As soon as they unghost

6. No

7. I would say yes. A full loot begets a full loot. If they then stfu and stop bothering you and you kill them again, then yes I'd call that multikilling.

8. I would say it shouldn't which is exactly why it should be codified into a rule, so you can say "this is against the rules whoever does it".

I agree with Daevryn complete and Kagumaru's answers with the caveat on #4 that if they enter the inner and unghost to get their corpse and then flee out and you kill them then you're being a douche. If they look like thy are staying to heal and attack then kill away.

I'm very much the 1 kill per session kind of guy. Even so much as 1 kill per day on multiple session log ins. But that's me. And that's with no cabal things involved.

We already have an implemented and well-working anti-paladin's system to count charges. We could also use the same system to count everybody's pks.

It will be really hard to compare pk's stats to the characters of the past. At the same time there will be all new totally blank different pk lists and people who are still actively playing will benefist the most.

This system deals with everything. The only reason to multi-kill with that implemented system would be to harm the feelings of a person behind a character, not a character. It could only be possible when you face not a newbie and so multi-killing will be limited only to the most specific situations where newbies don't participate.

And even then you have to think twice - "i can kill him again right now or wait 1,45 rl hours more and then kill him to actually get a pk". So it will actually make multi-killing happen less anyway. Also you will always think to yourself "Alright, i can this newbie and than another newbie on another part of Thera. But i can go and try to win against this skilled opponent as well to get 5 pks at once!"

The system also deals with the village berserker's randomness from the deatlblows. Berserkers are not supposed to group to take down big PC's to get many pk's at once. But this system also improves grouping/social part of CF - instead of making big group to take down big dragon - you can form a big group to try to take down big PC ... there were 2 PCs worth 15 and 16 charges just few days ago. And even at lower levels there are some PCs who worth few charges so it may be better to hunt them instead of random NPC's yet again.

The idea sounds radical, but it could be totally new era for CF with all the lists being blank .... like new opportunities for some players, so most of the people don't only remember characters of the past.

I am not sure how it can play out practically and this is only a suggestion. And of course there is a need to actually tweaken and balance the system. Even though i understand that many players like to remember their old characters and it will be impossible to compare old and new characters and it will kill a bit of fun for them. But it could be an attempt to bring a bit of fresh air and maybe few old players.

Compare the number of charges killer and victim would be worth in any pk. The one who's worth less gets a chance for random skill improvements. So, mid-level killer worth 5 charges rolling over people worth 1 would at least be giving them a little consolation, from the skill ups. And if one of those less deathful players kills someone worth a few charges, they also get a little pat on the back. It seems like it could encourage people to mix things up in a way that's a little more fun for everyone. And it also gives a different route for skill improvement than tedious practicing.

You power level to hero and then try to gank someone to learn riposte or flourintine or flurry as giant.

P.S. The suggested system would also encourage the most unique builds ... like i don't know, the different types of thiefs for example. The log of Flaayin vs Mharladin comes to mind and later Mharladin vs Flaayin. It's like ... 2 strong people fought and both of their battles were unique, it would be really cool if they both got many pks after this.

The best example would be a binder thief vs thug thief. Binder can kill stronger people, but thug thief can kill more people. It would be interesting to really find it out what are they worth.

However Oshui and Buereneus could potentially ooc with each other to increase their already big pks. But there are always so few such people and all their battles are become famous in some way and are easy to track for immortals.

The idea to scale everything with level, with maybe something else itself is very good.

You see, there is an inherent problem here.

CF is indeed an RP mud as you have pointed out....

However, CF was a PVP mud LONG before it became 'RP enforced'

In your example below with rager vs mage

A rager is always in the right when killing a mage. They want to destroy ALL magic in thera. That generally means they can kill you at any time, with no reason other than 'you are a mage'

By that same token, Good vs Evil can be looked at the same way.

Personally, When I've killed someone I generally leave them alone for the rest of my session unless special circumstances dictate otherwise.
(They are raiding/Attacking me/Ranking with a group/Etc) Generally I feel that most people act this way.

There is no hard-set rule against multikilling, and it will never be 'bad rp' for a rager to kill a mage.

Also, bear in mind many people play this game for the PK, with RP as a side effect. CF has bar-none some of the best competitive pvp I've ever seen.

So, I am glad you have taken an interest in this mud, but in doing so you need to understand that first and foremost this is indeed a PK mud, regardless of what people may say

People _WILL_ try to kill you, always.

I offer you the following advice since you seem new:

Minimize your enemies

Having trouble with ragers? Play a warrior/thief/assassin/ranger/paladin/shaman/etc non mage. - Ragers will leave you alone

Consider playing a non caballed character, or a herald/forty style explorer.

Generally speaking good alignment is going to have the most allies/people willing to help you. This will help with maximizing allies, while minimizing enemies.

>There is no hard-set rule against multikilling, and it will
>never be 'bad rp' for a rager to kill a mage.

Bad RP? No. Terrible sportsmanship in the context of a game? Sometimes yes.

>People _WILL_ try to kill you, always.

That's not what this is about, it's about people killing THEN killing you again without having given them any further reason to do so.

I have no problems with losing 1/3 con to anyone once a day it's the second and third kills I have problems with. I'd rather be fulled than multi'd.

It IS what this is about, I was trying to dance around the issue, so here it is as bluntly as I can put it

If some person is continually kicking the crap outta you. Do 1 of 2 things.

Improve, and beat his ass (my personal favorite)

Or, avoid them. Those are what you're left with. Multi dying/killing is a part of this game, hell back in 02/03 I got multi'd myself. I have overcome it.

I am now at the point where if someone gets me a 2nd time, I blame myself. As you should. Person A kills you ranking in specific spot.

If Person A comes back 20 minutes later and you are still ranking there, and he kills you AGAIN..that is your bad bro.

Some more advice

When PK happens, whether you win or lose do not stick around. Leave whatever area the encounter happened in ASAP and don't go back right away.

Try to make your ranking/practicing/whatever patterns erratic, and yourself less predictable

In essence, CF really does push the 'adapt or die' adage to the extreme.

I'm not talking about getting killed ranking in the same spot they first found me (I even gave that as an example of when it should be okay to do it), I'm talking about getting found again in some low traffic area doing something completely different, but the principle is the same. The principle being that continually hunting down the same guy who's just doing g all corpse and going about his day is largely seen as not cool, so why not make it officially not cool.

Sort of saying that CF is a RP/PK mud. Part of it is dealing with pk situations. You either learn how to do it fast or you get rolled over. Being multikilled definitely taught me how to run away and survive better. It is part of the challenge of this game, learning to survive. RP wise if you have your most loathed and hated enemy killing your kin repeatedly, say evils ranking on elves in darsylon, how could you not go kill them until they leave? What if you keep getting attacked by the same person over and over again?

You log out?

If I were to make rules on it I'd make them very loose, and allow a fresh kill for each RP reason. i.e. First kill "I'm good aligned and he had a red aura", second kill same day "I'm good aligned and he was ranking on elves" third kill same day "I'm good aligned and told him if he kept ranking on elves I'd kill him again".

What I think detracts entirely from the game is: First kill "He was sitting in his guild/walking down the road and is a mage and I'm a rager" Second kill same day "He was sitting in his guild/walking down the road and is a mage and I'm a rager". The mage talks smack to you, casts a spell in front of you, trails you around waiting to jump you, fine kill him again.

I'd only put in a rule against the most gratuitous kinds of multikilling and give the benefit of the doubt in most cases but I think there would be some value in at least a nominal rule against doing it with impunity.

Also, considering that every interaction is different means that: "I'm good aligned and told him if he kept ranking on elves I'd kill him again" and "He was sitting in his guild/walking down the road and is a mage and I'm a rager" become the same thing when the rager "tells" the mage stop using magic.

It would become a massive ordeal (probably fought out in Dio's logs)to determine who did or did not have RP justification to kill whomever.

I feel that by making more rules we decrease the meatiness of the RP in general and I'm opposed to that.

Another part of the problem is that what you refer to as "the most gratuitous kinds of multikilling" are really open to interpretation. What's gratuitous to you or me might be a-ok to certain players or IMMs, or vice-versa.

Also, I don't really feel that multi-killing is a big problem. The vast majority of players don't do it and those that do are often easy to identify and avoid.

And if you can't avoid them, learn how to kill them. Believe me, that goes a long way towards putting the kibosh on them hunting you relentlessly.

You wouldn't have to catch every instance. But if every now and then, one time in twenty, someone lost a con or caught a slay/eat when an imm was watching the whole thing play out it would serve as a deterrent. I don't think this is that radical.

I thought multikilling in general was disapproved of and seen as bad for the game, and if so, why not make a rule?

There are certain things that are policed by the IMM staff. Specifically everything that counts as a "rule."

There are other aspects of the game that are policed by the player culture. Multikilling is one of these.

Again, the problem is that your definition of egregious multikilling will likely differ from the guy doing the killing or an IMM watching.

Where do you draw the line?

If I kill a guy and he sends me a nasty tell am I justified in killing him again?

If I kill a guy when he's fighting a mob that I don't think he should be fighting and I tell him to stop, then he finishes the mob while a ghost, can I kill him as soon as he unghosts?

If I kill a guy and then he camps at my outer to report movements to his cabal, how many times can I kill him as he unghosts to prevent him from using this tactic?

Also, the more rules you make, the more time the staff has to spend enforcing them instead of RPing with us.

I'd prefer to deal with getting killed twice in one log-in by the same guy (this happens to me about once a year) and have great IMMteractions, than to give that up so I don't get whacked twice on that one occasion.

"If I kill a guy and he sends me a nasty tell am I justified in killing him again?

If I kill a guy when he's fighting a mob that I don't think he should be fighting and I tell him to stop, then he finishes the mob while a ghost, can I kill him as soon as he unghosts?

If I kill a guy and then he camps at my outer to report movements to his cabal, how many times can I kill him as he unghosts to prevent him from using this tactic?"

Yes to all the above. The only situation I would legislate against is when the guy sucks it up, does get all corpse and goes about some other bit of business somewhere else without threatening or insulting the guy who did it, and then the same guy hunts him down and does it again.

"I'd prefer to deal with getting killed twice in one log-in by the same guy (this happens to me about once a year)"

Often happens to me more than once a week, which encourages me to simply log off as soon as I see certain characters logged on. And I'd rather not use that as a solution.

I might be out of touch, but I don't run into this anywhere near that frequently.

Also, I'm rarely aware of people in my cabal doing this or suffering this.

But, even if it is happening a lot, I don't think that making a rule against it is the way to go. I think CF has too many rules as it is, though the only one I ever flout is the naming one.

CF simply wouldn't be CF if people would PK each other once a week. Anti-paladin's system tells anti-paladins to pkill someone every 2 hours (i am not sure about the actual number, 2 hours is a wild guess from someone who played a-p long time ago).

And 2 hours is about the right time in any case, CF is PK mud. When RP comes into play - for example during the cabal raid/retrieve the time can be even shorter, but not to give someone a chance to kill someone who is trying to retrieve few times. It will help villagers a bit on other hand (if imms implement a-p's idea for everybody).

The other issue is that this is relatively easy to deal with once you become more experienced - multikilling is only really dangerous to newbies who aren't very familiar with the game yet. Even mildly experienced players know how to teleport or run to the ass-end of nowhere and sit around for a bit.

n/t

Flee if you aren't winning and run far away. Learn how to do both of these and you'll be better off than trying to get IMMs to change something for you.

If you just killed someone and they suicidally attack you as the aggressor that is absoloutely a fresh RP reason for a kill and I'd allow it if I were making the rules. I'd allow second kills for far less.