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XandryaThu 20-Mar-03 02:16 PM
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#90, "Racial Language(s)?"


          

I have been told that there are some in game resources for learning the drow and felar languages. Though I personally have never actually seen them. I was wondering if there might also be a resource on elven language. I think it might be fun to learn a few words to use. I suppose my best source would be the Lyceum and I will check that out the first chance I get, but if there are other sources it would be nice to know about them.

  

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Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Karithia, 20-Mar-03 05:24 PM, #2
Reply Another way it could work, Hutto, 20-Mar-03 06:48 PM, #3
Reply RE: Another way it could work, incognito, 20-Mar-03 08:15 PM, #4
     Reply Yup., Valguarnera, 20-Mar-03 09:07 PM, #5
          Reply Well what about hard coded racial languages?, Vladamir, 27-Mar-03 03:08 AM, #8
          Reply I don't care for this idea, myself, Yanoreth, 27-Mar-03 08:55 PM, #13
               Reply RE: I don't care for this idea, myself, Valguarnera, 27-Mar-03 09:10 PM, #14
               Reply Awww.....Bing back Pose, and Puff too while your at it., Seanaroo, 28-Mar-03 10:59 AM, #16
               Reply Bring back coconuts! n/t, Boogie, 20-Apr-03 07:07 PM, #18
               Reply RE: I don't care for this idea, myself, Vladamir, 29-Apr-03 04:05 PM, #19
                    Reply RE: I don't care for this idea, myself, Valguarnera, 29-Apr-03 08:48 PM, #20
                    Reply We were each addressing two sides of the same issue, Yanoreth, 29-Apr-03 10:45 PM, #21
                    Reply RE: We were each addressing two sides of the same issue, Quislet, 30-Apr-03 04:05 AM, #23
                    Reply A middle ground translation., Quislet, 30-Apr-03 03:52 AM, #22
          Reply 'Dark Elf', Evil Genius (Anonymous), 27-Mar-03 02:40 PM, #10
               Reply RE: 'Dark Elf', Krivohan, 27-Mar-03 04:28 PM, #11
                    Reply RE: 'Dark Elf', Snyto, 28-Mar-03 03:29 AM, #15
Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Xandrya, 20-Mar-03 09:35 PM, #6
Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Ladrias, 23-Mar-03 03:14 PM, #7
Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Seanaroo, 27-Mar-03 02:12 PM, #9
     Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Karithia, 27-Mar-03 05:51 PM, #12
          Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Seanaroo, 28-Mar-03 11:00 AM, #17
Reply RE: Racial Language(s)?, Krivohan, 20-Mar-03 02:23 PM, #1

KarithiaThu 20-Mar-03 05:24 PM
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#92, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #0


          

I would like to point out something. While a lot of people think racial languages is cute and good role-play, it actually is fairly poor, unless done with a twist. Here is an example.

An elf starts speaking "elven". The rest of the elves around have no clue what you just said. They ask what dilect you are speaking and you reply elven. They ask where you learned it from, you say Darsylon. They being from Darsylon have never heard it. So how would that be good Role-play.

Heck, Karithia, an immortal elf has no freakin clue what some of these elves are saying, and if you knew Karithia's background and character that wouldn't make sense.

Now if you take the angle that it is elven from another lands like "far to the east" or a specific tribal elven that might be fine. My point is, racial languages don't truly exist in such a way in CF, so are not really a good RP angle.


Karithia

  

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HuttoThu 20-Mar-03 06:48 PM
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#93, "Another way it could work"
In response to Reply #2


          

Use "elven" when speaking to everyone but elves. When talking with other elves, use english. This would give you the language challenges when talking to non-elves, yet would allow elves to understand you perfectly as you would expect them to IC.


Infect strangers with CF and turn the world into a giant pool of mudaholics!

  

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incognitoThu 20-Mar-03 08:15 PM
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#94, "RE: Another way it could work"
In response to Reply #3


          

Both yours and Karithia's arguments are ones I used when this point came up before. I think it was when someone posted a log of them talking "drow" to a newbie who was asking to group.

However, with your solution (and mine), you do run into problems when you are in a group with one other elf and one felar.

And, in practice, I've often found myself in exactly the position Karithia describes when people started talking "drow" to my drow. A few key words is one thing because people pick them up from the context. I could always work out what the k'sra based roleplaying person whose name I forget meant. But when I get 20 words of gibberish I tend to give up.

  

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ValguarneraThu 20-Mar-03 09:07 PM
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#95, "Yup."
In response to Reply #4


          

More importantly, goofy-web-language-speak fails both the playability and IC tests. We don't want to add "You must memorize or install triggers for hundreds of words in order to communicate with members of your own race." to the CF learning curve. Key words for color/emphasis are fine for the reasons you give- context can be used to grab them, and people can keep track of a common couple things like that without a problem, just like I know how to say hello and good-bye in a ton of RL languages.

It doesn't make IC sense either. If you were speaking elvish IC, other elves would understand you if their role specified they should. If you're speaking some goofy-web-language, you're taking an IC (character) skill and turning it into a OOC (player) skill.

Also, what if one elf is using some Forgotten-Realms derived dictionary, and another one is using Tolkien-elvish? IC, we've never given reason why two elvish languages would exist.

I dealt with far too much goofy-web-dark-elf(*)-speak as a Master, until I thought about it more and just started demanding they speak to me in my language. I'd be more open to ideas along this angle if people played their racial culture up in other ways (i.e., dark-elves are evil/cutthroat, not just snooty humans with lots of apostrophes), but it seems ridiculous to emphasize something that is a pain in the butt for most players (learning web-languages) instead of things that enhance the game for everyone.

(*) You'll notice the word 'drow' appearing less and less within the game. There's a lot more 'Dark-elf' these days, which is on purpose. More to come on this as our related culture projects see the light of day.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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VladamirThu 27-Mar-03 03:08 AM
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#98, "Well what about hard coded racial languages?"
In response to Reply #5


          

I'd LOVE to be able to type race blah blah, and say blah blah in my racial tongue, only to be understood by those of my people. IMagine the dark elves, travelling with a felar, discussing in their own language how much they were going to enjoy bedding down latrer that night on a brand spanking new felar hide blanket, all the while smiling and nodding and feeding him little bits of fish. THIS makes much more sense to me than every single person in Thera speaking the SAME damned language.

  

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YanorethThu 27-Mar-03 08:55 PM
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#103, "I don't care for this idea, myself"
In response to Reply #8


          

It takes away the challenge of roleplaying something other than a human in a funny suit and gives you a mechanical way to feel like you're doing something. But then it is like the difference between using the old "pose" command and "emote". When you typed "pose" you would randomly emote something appropriate to your class. Some people thought this was great and did it all the time, but it was just repetitive, unimaginative, and ultimately silly. Giving people an automatic way to speak "felar" would be similar to "pose", IMHO.

Doing a good job with hard coding languages is a huge undertaking that I do not think will add more to the game than it subtracts. If you know a language or two (or at least smidgens), consider how it is possible to understand some but not all of what another person is saying. And then there is the question of even recognizing what language is being spoken. In addition, in our world there is no guarantee that a dark-elf raised in Galadon would even know the dark-elf tongue. Add quests to let people learn the languages? Sure, but that's more coding. Wouldn't you rather have new skills like 'panache'?

Plus, it would be a challenge in itself to write the language encoder so that the resulting "language" actually looked like language. But then again, encoding partial understanding of the speech would be most neat and realistic but would be a huge headache. I just have other things I'd much rather be working on.

We have no problem with small partial language sets, such as the one Vella came up with. I came up with the felar tongue in the Lyceum, and there are other partial languages scattered through the mud to be found. A few catchphrases and greeting terms for a race are fine and show creativity. If you want everyone to see gibberish when you speak... you might try to goad Pico into casting an indefinite garble on you.

  

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ValguarneraThu 27-Mar-03 09:10 PM
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#104, "RE: I don't care for this idea, myself"
In response to Reply #13


          

Wouldn't you rather have new skills like 'panache'?

She's finally lost it. You can't just give people Pänäche. There's no saving throw. Need more lag. Only one class can counter Pänäche. It gets more powerful as the user does. Pänäche ate my dog. In the First Age, everything was perfectly balanced because the imms didn't ruin the game with overpowered Pänäche. Imms give their mortals Pänäche. Wield äxe.

Oh, wait. Wrong forum. My bad.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com Anonymous.

  

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SeanarooFri 28-Mar-03 10:59 AM
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#106, "Awww.....Bing back Pose, and Puff too while your at it."
In response to Reply #13


          


I loved the incredible feats you could pull off as pose. "You kick the head of a paladin around." "The grey mouser comes up and heck he did something, can't remember what now.." And Puff! heck I could watch her all day, and how people reacted when she was near.

You can't rid the world of _ALL_ the fun and silliness now can you? Maybe we can prey for some insanity spores or a hot patato or two just to spice things up. P

  

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BoogieSun 20-Apr-03 07:07 PM
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#114, "Bring back coconuts! n/t"
In response to Reply #16


          

asdf

  

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VladamirTue 29-Apr-03 04:05 PM
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#118, "RE: I don't care for this idea, myself"
In response to Reply #13


          

You say..."It takes away the challenge of roleplaying something other than a human in a funny suit and gives you a mechanical way to feel like you're doing something." And..."If you know a language or two (or at least smidgens), consider how it is possible to understand some but not all of what another person is saying. And then there is the question of even recognizing what language is being spoken. In addition, in our world there is no guarantee that a dark-elf raised in Galadon would even know the dark-elf tongue."


However Valg says...'More importantly, goofy-web-language-speak fails both the playability and IC tests. We don't want to add "You must memorize or install triggers for hundreds of words in order to communicate with members of your own race." to the CF learning curve. Key words for color/emphasis are fine for the reasons you give- context can be used to grab them, and people can keep track of a common couple things like that without a problem, just like I know how to say hello and good-bye in a ton of RL languages.

It doesn't make IC sense either. If you were speaking elvish IC, other elves would understand you if their role specified they should. If you're speaking some goofy-web-language, you're taking an IC (character) skill and turning it into a OOC (player) skill.

Also, what if one elf is using some Forgotten-Realms derived dictionary, and another one is using Tolkien-elvish? IC, we've never given reason why two elvish languages would exist.'

Your points are completely different. You say you don't want to institute languages, in part, because not every person of that race will speak the same language. Valg says he thinks all people of a given race should speak the same language. I'm not trying to start flaming here, but you two have completely different opinions of what makes good RP here. How are we, as a playerbase, supposed to know what is acceptable and whats not, without resorting to looking through the OOC forums to see how each immortal feels about racial languages IC?

  

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ValguarneraTue 29-Apr-03 08:48 PM
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#120, "RE: I don't care for this idea, myself"
In response to Reply #19


          

Your points are completely different. You say you don't want to institute languages, in part, because not every person of that race will speak the same language. Valg says he thinks all people of a given race should speak the same language. I'm not trying to start flaming here, but you two have completely different opinions of what makes good RP here.

I'm honestly confused how you got that from the context given.

We're both telling you the exact same thing- "speaking another language" by substituting words according to some dictionary doesn't add to the RP experience. It forces an OOC mechanism (who has a script installed to translate back and forth) over what should be an IC mechanism (your character's background should determine what IC languages are spoken).

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

  

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YanorethTue 29-Apr-03 10:45 PM
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#121, "We were each addressing two sides of the same issue"
In response to Reply #19


          

I agree with Valg's viewpoint, too. I made this argument because I thought it addressed the issue at hand. I never said that different members of a race would speak different variations of dark-elf, merely that some members of the race might not speak dark-elf at all. Some of them might speak dwarvish instead, or in addition to speaking dark-elf. But then that makes it nigh-impossible to encode in any sort of fun and realistic way. And I'm certainly not interested in spending the time coding such a system when there are so many other projects to do.

Valg's point was that if I'm playing a character who was raised as a dark-elf and presumably knows how to speak dark-elf, it doesn't make any sense to not be able to understand the "dark-elf" language someone else is speaking. His argument was not specifically against the idea of hard-coded languages in the mud but rather the tendency for some players to use OOC languages as if they were IC. The only IC languages we have are in the Lyceum, and they are the smidgeons that we all agree on.

If you want to know what we all agree on, there is a simple language helpfile in the game - help LANGUAGE. We're working on making races and racial languages a little more defined, as well. I suggest you stay tuned for developments.

  

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QuisletWed 30-Apr-03 04:05 AM
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#123, "RE: We were each addressing two sides of the same issue"
In response to Reply #21


          

> We're working on making races and racial languages a little more
>defined, as well. I suggest you stay tuned for developments.

I'm very glad for the new speech help files, and pleased that so far they've exceeded my expectations in that the examples largely match the better roleplayed examples of each race over the years.

Before the arial speech help file is finalized, I have one request: Please, please, please, please, please do not make chirping a common speech style for them. Maybe mention it as something akin to an accent some of them have, but please keep it to less than half the population. Even if I weren't playing any arials any more, too much chirping just plain gets annoying. Extremely. One or two well known chirpy speakers at a time is plenty, and adds all the chirpy flavor the race would ever need. Other common speech traits I've seen in arials over the years include run on sentences, or the reverse in many short sentences one after another. Both indicate the tendency I've seen from many arials to ramble and not shut up.

Personally, I like the slightly superior sounding attitude with unreasonably 'big words', while being in personality rather friendly and personable. It seems to show the awkwardness arials have in other cultures that think differently than they do. Unfortunately, except for me, I haven't seen this much at all for a very long time.

  

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QuisletWed 30-Apr-03 03:52 AM
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#122, "A middle ground translation."
In response to Reply #19


          

To base it off of what you(Vlad) took Valg and Yanoreth to be saying:

Valg is saying that if people would ICly know the same language, they should all understand each other. (this is a good reason to not use your own invented languages, or multiple forms of fantasy Elvish, etc, etc, etc)

Yanoreth is saying that not everyone of the same race would automatically know the same language. (a half elf is the most obvious example of this, as they'd typically learn the language of one parent or the other)

Therefore, while not everyone knows the same languages, everyone who would know the appropriate racial tongue ought to be able to understand it. Without using something like the Lyceum texts as a basis, there is no suitable common ground. So, if you want to speak to someone in a language both of you would know IC, roleplay the discussion. Anyone present who ought not ICly know the language should get the hint and roleplay accordingly.

So, in truth, they're saying the same thing from different angles, just like they each already personally said. By the way, those notes in parentheses are entirely my own examples, just so nobody thinks I'm putting words in anyone's mouths.

  

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Evil Genius (inactive user)Thu 27-Mar-03 02:40 PM
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#100, "'Dark Elf'"
In response to Reply #5


          

Any chance of making Dark-Elves have the same skin tone as other Elves. The Dark in Dark Elves is a reference to their personalities, not their skin tone.

That and the fact that creatures that move underground would develop very pale skin by comparison to normal (ie Elves and D-Elves split at some point in their history, D-Elves moved underground).

  

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KrivohanThu 27-Mar-03 04:28 PM
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#101, "RE: 'Dark Elf'"
In response to Reply #10


  

          

"Evermeet" provides a good history of the development of drow. I think Elaine Cunningham wrote it but I may be wrong.

  

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SnytoFri 28-Mar-03 03:29 AM
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#105, "RE: 'Dark Elf'"
In response to Reply #11


          

Elaine Cunningham wrote it yes and it's a darned good book but... (always these "buts") it's set in the Forgotten Realms and sadly, this is not the only universe out there that contain the ebony elves as I think Valg pointed out in a post above.

  

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XandryaThu 20-Mar-03 09:35 PM
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#96, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #2


          

This is why I asked if there were any in-game resources. I just was wanting to pick up a word or two not speak a whole lot pf elf-speak. I know there are some places in CF where certain Felar words are spelled out along with their meaning. So I was wondering if there was anything like that for Elvish.

I have seen several sites on the internet for other games, but prefer not to use them because there is so much difference between them and no one in CF would know what I was saying. If CF does not have any reference material like this in-game then I would prefer to speak only common (English) anyway. I just was curious about it.

  

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LadriasSun 23-Mar-03 03:14 PM
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#97, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #2


          

It might be interesting to have languages as part of the game code. For example, elves could set a language toggle to elven, so people who knew the language would see english while everyone else would see messages like "JoeElf says something in another language". Whaddya think?

  

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SeanarooThu 27-Mar-03 02:12 PM
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#99, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #2


          

Being creative is very important. The way people speak/type is the most powerful first impression tool on the mud. And its not poor RP. There have been _several_ top-notch players who speak with accents or in strange languages, its interesting.

As Vella Ar'Tzar (Storm warrior in Troupe years ago) I spoke broken english, in stages based on my age. When young I spoke mostly stormish, and let my "common" develop until he finally keeled over of old age. I found that the trick was consistancy. I used the same words for the same thing all the time. And if I needed to express something new in stormish, I would make something up write it down and remember to use it _always_ for that time. I still have friends who talk to me in stormish, and I've been flattered to hear storm giants on the mud, running around saying "Kellesh!"(hello) to one an other. It annoyed some people *cough Twist* *cough Nepenthe* but I didn't care, I found for ever person who hatted me for speaking stormish, I had 5 others talking back in stormish. It can get annoying if you speak gibberish, but when done correctly it can be quite contageous.

There's plenty of language articles in the lyceum, it would be wicked cool if people used the ones already written. Even the greetings, what would you say in response to a felar who greeted you with "Mree!" Probably "Hello!" or some such thing. While I don't think that it should be hard coded into the mud (with the Minotaur exception of course) There's still more languages out there to be discovered, roll a Herald and scribble down everything you can think of and get it in the Lyceum.

Well, sorry I'm a bit long winded. All in all, as an Imm I think you should encourage people trying to be creative and add some depth to thier character. Sometimes its a good crutch for newer people trying to get the technical aspect of their game up. As it was for me and Vella. As an imm you're seen as a leader, lead on, lead by example.

Ti di trabbish a da shaw! (With the strength of the waves)

Attachment #1, (jpg file)

  

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KarithiaThu 27-Mar-03 05:51 PM
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#102, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #9


          

>>>Being creative is very important. The way people speak/type is the most powerful first impression tool on the mud. And its not poor RP. There have been _several_ top-notch players who speak with accents or in strange languages, its interesting.<<<<

Yes, being creative is very important. The way people speak adds flare to a character, however SPEAKING a langauge that would be considered a main langauge among a race and the rest of that race having no clue what you are saying is Poor Role Play. Now if your language was an off shoot of a normal language (ie a different dilect of elven) that would be fine. However too many people say this is Elven, this is Dark Elven. That does not fly when the rest of the world doesn't understand it.

>>>>As Vella Ar'Tzar (Storm warrior in Troupe years ago) I spoke broken english, in stages based on my age. When young I spoke mostly stormish, and let my "common" develop until he finally keeled over of old age. I found that the trick was consistancy. I used the same words for the same thing all the time. And if I needed to express something new in stormish, I would make something up write it down and remember to use it _always_ for that time. I still have friends who talk to me in stormish, and I've been flattered to hear storm giants on the mud, running around saying "Kellesh!"(hello) to one an other. It annoyed some people *cough Twist* *cough Nepenthe* but I didn't care, I found for ever person who hatted me for speaking stormish, I had 5 others talking back in stormish. It can get annoying if you speak gibberish, but when done correctly it can be quite contageous.<<<<

Yes, some people's preceptive would believe this to be a good role-play. Some would not. Consistency is a key element to good role-play. Heck, I remember Vella, it was the consistency and the ability to change over time and during circustances made the character good, not the fact he spoke stormish.

>>>>There's plenty of language articles in the lyceum, it would be wicked cool if people used the ones already written. Even the greetings, what would you say in response to a felar who greeted you with "Mree!" Probably "Hello!" or some such thing. While I don't think that it should be hard coded into the mud (with the Minotaur exception of course) There's still more languages out there to be discovered, roll a Herald and scribble down everything you can think of and get it in the Lyceum.<<<<

Now you see, that would be great and fine. Why? Because it is a langauge that is in the game and that people could learn if they choose too.

>>>>Well, sorry I'm a bit long winded. All in all, as an Imm I think you should encourage people trying to be creative and add some depth to thier character. Sometimes its a good crutch for newer people trying to get the technical aspect of their game up. As it was for me and Vella. As an imm you're seen as a leader, lead on, lead by example.<<<<

As I said, being creative is good, however there are times for the plain ole simple warrior, the intelligent mage, daring thief, humble priest, and couragous paladin. Always remember, consistancy is the biggest key to roleplaying. If you can handle that, that alone will make many people good roleplayers. Filter in stuff like emotes, speech patterns, and the ball park begins to fill. Hope that makes some sense.

Karithia

  

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SeanarooFri 28-Mar-03 11:00 AM
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#107, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #12


          

Sorry Karithia, I must've mis read you and then fell off my high horse that was standing on my soap box.

I agree with you 100%

Cheers

  

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KrivohanThu 20-Mar-03 02:23 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#91, "RE: Racial Language(s)?"
In response to Reply #0


  

          

http://www.iespana.es/DestinyHeroes/libros/tolkien/Elf%20Language.htm

there's your love.

  

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