A scientist accidentally discovered a way to cause plain ol' salt water to burn like fuel, reaching a temperature of 3,000 degrees farenheit.

I want you all to keep your eyes peeled for news about this. With any luck its potential won't be stymied by people who wouldn't want it to succeed as a fuel source.

In my mind this is already a perfect solution. Hell, if you can get it to burn, it is fuel. Period.


The story
http://green.yahoo.com/index.php?q=node/1570

Sadly, I can't access it from home (subscription needed), but Nature's news section published an editorial this week about Kanzius, essentially slamming the idea. They didn't address one possible outcome (a more energy-efficient way to do electrolysis), but they did a more thorough debunking of the 'perpetual motion' model of energy this guy was apparently claiming. (Essentially, you break apart water to get hydrogen, then burn the hydrogen to produce water again. That's a closed loop, so it can't produce energy, and will always lose a little.)

Nature is, in general, fairly conservative in their claims, and it's not a good sign for this guy's physical evidence that they're already taking a position.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

In my mind this is already a perfect solution. Hell, if you can get it to burn, it is fuel. Period.

If it was a self-sustaining process, sure. The process described requires a continuous input of energy in the form of radio waves. The seawater would only be 'fuel' if you're getting out more energy than you're putting in.

A similar process has been done for years, using electricity instead of radio input. You apply a current to water that contains some ions (to conduct the charge.... highly pure water is actually an insulator), and produce the same reaction described by this guy-- water in, hydrogen and oxygen gas out. The fuel value of the hydrogen is generally about half the energy you put in-- useless as an energy source, but useful in the sense that it converts grid electricity into something portable. If you had cheap, plentiful low-pollution grid energy (fission or solar at present, fusion down the road), hydrogen solves the other half of the enegy problem-- portable, non-polluting energy.

Now, it's possible that he may have made the process somewhat more efficient than electrolysis, but until someone measures the numbers there's no way to know. I'm suspicious of the fact that as of now, the only news stories I can find on this are general media outlets-- the science-y news sources seem to be ignoring it. Plus, this same guy claimed about a month ago that he invented a cancer treatment... he might just be a crackpot.

Maybe not, of course, but we'll see what he can publish and what other people can reproduce and verify. Peer review is a rough process.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

I actually searched around after posting this and came to realize, as well, that this wasn't getting coverage by the sources that really matter. Oh well, hopefully it'll turn into something good.

Mostly because 1) The article I read said he was trying to invent a cancer treatment with these radio waves, and 2) It seems to have been a happy accident that he found out the waves would make salt water burn.

Generally, does producing radio waves take less energy than electrolysis? This is something I haven't found, but it seems (based on absolutely nothing) that it would be the case, especially since you could (presumably) supply the RF over a much larger area than electrolysis would be feasible. I wish they would have included the frequencies and that sort of detail so others could verify (or disprove) rapidly.

It does make me wonder (if this is true) what these frequencies would do to a person since we are mostly salt water...

On a psuedo unrelated note, I saw some stories recently about RFID tags and the such causing cancer in animals due to irritation at the implant site. Have you seen anything/have any insight into that?

It does make me wonder (if this is true) what these frequencies would do to a person since we are mostly salt water...


I think it might be similar to the V-MADS:


http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/v-mads.htm


Edited to add:
I wonder if the scientist in question was curious about what V-MADS might do to cancerous tumors and stumbled upon this. Let's hope the "salt water" wasn't someone's eyeball.

Mostly because 1) The article I read said he was trying to invent a cancer treatment with these radio waves

As a quick note, he's reinventing the wheel there-- there's a couple dozen groups like

http://www.stanford.edu/dept/chemistry/faculty/dai/group/research5_3.htm

with clinical results on techniques like this, and techniques like BNCT have exploited the general principle for a while. (Essentially, you build some molecule or particle that absorbs some form of radiation that the human body is transparent to, and also sticks preferentially to cells undergoing rapid division.) Techniques that kill cancer cells in a dish are a dime a dozen, in any event. Clinical results are the tough ones.

This sort of thing is the most common reason 'garage' type scientists frequently run into walls-- the pros have all the journal subscriptions (and the student manpower to scan them), funds to attend conferences, ready access to patent lawyers, etc., and they're able to build on existing knowledge, rather than starting from scratch on everything.

It does make me wonder (if this is true) what these frequencies would do to a person since we are mostly salt water...

Likely cause burns, starting at the surface, for the same reasons kitchen microwaves or infrared lasers (see also: Valg's right hand near the wrist) would. You're sending energy into a substance, and it's getting absorbed. It has to turn into something, and heat is the most common side effect.

This is something I haven't found, but it seems (based on absolutely nothing) that it would be the case, especially since you could (presumably) supply the RF over a much larger area than electrolysis would be feasible.

I agree that's based on absolutely nothing. After all, what are you using to generate those radio waves? You already have one extra step in generating the energy, so the bond-breaking method needs to be two steps better. It could be, but without a measurement there's no reason to think it is a priori.

On a psuedo unrelated note, I saw some stories recently about RFID tags and the such causing cancer in animals due to irritation at the implant site. Have you seen anything/have any insight into that?

That story is getting reported by more reputable media, and it's definitely going to spur a specific study. All they know so far is that they saw a high tumor incidence in mice with the chips implanted, but without control groups/etc. (the investigators weren't looking for cancer) it's tricky to interpret. My gut feeling is that it'll end up being a materials problem-- something leeching out of the particular RFID chip or a conseqeunce of the implantation method, rather than a consequence of the radio waves themselves.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

For the longest time I thought I was the only dolt
with a scar from a laser burn. Whenever people bring
up scars I have always told them I had one no one else
did. Mine's in the center of the palm of my left hand.
How did you manage yours? Mine was just plain stupidity.
I was using my hand to "aim" where to set up some mirrors
with an optic laser which before that day I thought had less
"oomph" to it than it did. *rofl* The dumber move though is the
fish hook scar in the middle of the right hand.
All I need to do now is drive a motorcyle into a barbed wire
fence and stick myself in the side with something sharp and I'll have the goofy version of the stigmata.
oh wait... I forgot the feet.

nt

I'm curious about what the salt water turns into after it's lost a bunch of hydrogen atoms. Hydroxyl (OH) is apparently not the best substance to have around, and you have a bunch of Na and Cl sitting around from the salt. Then there's the question of how much energy you need to pump into it to keep the reaction going. Also, at what rate the water can be forced to emit hydrogen, and for what duration per unit volume before becoming exhausted.

It looks like it would be better utilized in an electrical plant
rather than "a car or heavy machinery" as they brought up in the
story. Producing radio waves to get the hydrogen out of salt water
HAS to be cheaper than splitting out the hydrogen and oxygen
electrically. the Na and Cl should still be NaCl at least. cut a deal
with mortons? hehe. As to what to do with the Hydroxyl well every electrical plant has their own special nasty by product, but if the radio waves keep cutting loose the hydrogen, it might end up a pile of salt alone. Need to look into it more. either way it's pretty nifty.
Ahh wait the supervillan would come up with a plan to direct massive
blasts of this frequency at the earth's oceans setting the whole world
ablaze. Sorry, had myself a lex luthor moment. Holding the world hostage for cash, which is used to pay off the bills for the machine
you built to threaten them all with.