The Carrion Fields - Viewing topic #56372 - (DELETED) [None] Murfkam the Battle-Scarred

Subject: "(DELETED) [None] Murfkam the Battle-Scarred"

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Death_Angel	Sat 17-Mar-07 04:00 PM
Member since 27th Sep 2024 17186 posts

#56372, "(DELETED) [None] Murfkam the Battle-Scarred"

Sat Mar 17 14:57:20 2007

At 5 o'clock PM, Day of the Moon, 35th of the Month of the Shadows
on the Theran calendar Murfkam perished, never to return.

Race:	dwarf
Class:	warrior
Level:	37
Alignment:	Neutral
Ethos:	Neutral
Cabal:	None, None
Age:	75
Hours:	44

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so sad,

Nalto (Guest), 19-Mar-07 04:36 AM, #19

Sorry you got looted like that, why'd you delete? NT,

Garkoal (Guest), 17-Mar-07 06:00 PM, #1

Because polespec are the worst in melee.,

Murfkam (Guest), 17-Mar-07 06:57 PM, #2

Your opinion will be given the consideration it deserve..., Daevryn, 17-Mar-07 07:23 PM, #3

Seriously. I couldn't tank for ranking, pk or getting e...,

Murfkam (Guest), 17-Mar-07 08:31 PM, #4

RE: Seriously. I couldn't tank for ranking, pk or getti..., Daevryn, 17-Mar-07 09:33 PM, #5

I dunno. I've played a few polespecs,

Daurwyn (Guest), 17-Mar-07 09:47 PM, #7

With Striking it would actually parry.,

Murfkam (Guest), 18-Mar-07 03:10 AM, #9

I have the log if you don't believe it.,

Garkoal (Guest), 17-Mar-07 09:34 PM, #6

Here it is,

Garkoal (Guest), 17-Mar-07 09:50 PM, #8

Were you being facetious, Theerkla, 18-Mar-07 08:21 AM, #10

RE: Were you being facetious,

Garkoal (Guest), 18-Mar-07 01:03 PM, #13

Nevermind Kastellyn answered that question, I still thi...,

Garkoal (Guest), 18-Mar-07 01:10 PM, #14

RE: Were you being facetious,

Daurwyn (Guest), 18-Mar-07 04:46 PM, #17

RE: Were you being facetious, Marcus_, 18-Mar-07 08:18 PM, #18

RE: Because polespec are the worst in melee., Kastellyn

, 18-Mar-07 09:59 AM, #11

Just so you know.... txt,

Nightwiggler (Guest), 18-Mar-07 10:23 AM, #12

Heh, i posted my below comment without having read this...,

CraftedD (Guest), 18-Mar-07 01:17 PM, #16

BLITZENTURT??? n/t,

CraftedD (Guest), 18-Mar-07 01:17 PM, #15

Nalto (Guest)	Mon 19-Mar-07 04:36 AM

#56447, "so sad"
In response to Reply #0

I'm sad to see you go. Thanks for teaching me all you did. I benefited from you greatly. Although you had your problems with combat, I really liked your character. Best of luck in the future.

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Garkoal (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 06:00 PM

#56374, "Sorry you got looted like that, why'd you delete? NT"
In response to Reply #0

No text.

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Murfkam (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 06:57 PM

#56376, "Because polespec are the worst in melee."
In response to Reply #1

Charge set is the only good skill they get. Cutoff is a poor mans entwine. Everything else is not worth crap. Here's my bitchin' list on why I wouldn't pick one ever again:

1. Poles are very easy to parry if you know them.
2. Easy to dodge if you don't. A lvl 33 duergar vs a lvl 37 dwarf and using only dodge avoided nearly 100% of my polearm attacks for 5 rounds. I switched to axes and he went to writhing in two. WTF?!
3. They parry like axes. Worse even. Distance makes you only average in defenses.
4. If you pick a high-dex race, you can't use most polearms for weight.
5. If you can't outtank, outdamage or hold onto your pole - cut off becomes near pointless except in gangs and legsweep is only lagging yourself out when another spec could be finish them with damage. Assassins with dual wielded weapons outtanked me easily. Thieves, not so much, but again they're not well practiced.
6. In situations you are fighting non-melee classes, polearms have bad damage averages and are still parried okay. But against those classes, cutoff is far less useful because they word if they're not about to grind you into the dust.

If that wasn't enough reason to delete, I was just dying left and right to mobs I couldn't tank while ranking. Polearms are bad against players, bad against mobs and are a pain to use under maledicts, disarming, fights where you need to maledict or fights where you need to defend. Polearms need something more. Taking flail and using a shield would have offered better utility, better offense and better defense in ALL situations. Taking Maelstrom would eliminate all set backs to taking flail over polearms. It was too frustrating to imagine.

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Daevryn	Sat 17-Mar-07 07:23 PM
Member since 13th Feb 2007 11117 posts

#56377, "Your opinion will be given the consideration it deserve..."
In response to Reply #2

At least, I assume the staff of whatever game you were playing will take it seriously.

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Murfkam (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 08:31 PM

#56378, "Seriously. I couldn't tank for ranking, pk or getting e..."
In response to Reply #3

Polearms just don't parry well. Dodge doesn't go off as a dwarf. That left distance. When perfected, it will stop about 70% of hits. There's nothing to stop the other 30%. That is a lot more than some warriors can afford when tanking. A sword spec, spear spec, dagger spec with a shield and a hth spec with a shield all took the mobs better. All my weapons except for staff, spear and whip were in the 90s.

And mobs disarm polearms way too easily. I assume its true for all weapons but it was especially annoying here, relying on distance to defend. Charge set was my fallback. When I wanted to be annoying, I would just keep on fleeing and letting it land. Against mobs, it worked too, but in the end I did more damage and defended better using other weapons or a shield.

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Daevryn	Sat 17-Mar-07 09:33 PM
Member since 13th Feb 2007 11117 posts

#56385, "RE: Seriously. I couldn't tank for ranking, pk or getti..."
In response to Reply #4

For a counterexample of a dwarf polearm warrior, look for logs/PBF of Alriac.

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Daurwyn (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 09:47 PM

#56389, "I dunno. I've played a few polespecs"
In response to Reply #4

They defend very well indeed imho.

I've played arial, felar and minotaur polespecs with reasonable success.

The secret to arial and felar is to get a light polearm and wear lots of +str gear. I think with my arial I tended to use the good udgaard ones, which are not that light, so had to wear a lot of +str gear. With my felar, other felar often gave me the flaming bardiche after killing the chief for other stuff. The extra dex should help you land hits too, plus your dodge will be nice.

The thing about polearm is it isn't so great where people are doing "active" damage, by which I mean stuff besides their ordinary hits. But it is good against folk like conjies, or druids, etc. At least, I found it was.

Leg-sweep is good for combining with cut-off and parting blow. You catch a guy raiding, and leg-sweep him, he'll have a tough time fleeing. He'll only get one chance between each legsweep, and you can either parting blow it or cut-off, bearing in mind that when fighting outers, people often flee into the guardian. (If you dirt him first, even worse.)

Cut-off is nice because it lags people when they try to flee. That means you can theoretically prevent a mage from recalling with it if they have wimpy high (not that I managed, but that was the plan).

Charge set does more than maelstrom. One of my polespecs had both. Charge-set is nice for keeping air-shifters with nightwalkers off of your back, for putting thieves in trouble when they try to jack you etc. (Maelstrom is also an excellent legacy btw.)

Chargeset also means that enemies know they have to eat some pain right at the start of the fight, which is offputting if you know the guy can then switch to axes, like you could.

Polearm to me, felt harder to disarm than many weapons. My gut feeling is that two handed weapons are harder to disarm if you have both hands on them, so this includes polearms.

As far as defenses go, they are hard to practice when you have a polearm. You pretty much need to work on them first, or work on them whilst defending with another weapon. Using the polearm will mean that distances stops you learning the other skills effectively.

It's not too original, but I think the Jaguab (if I recall correctly) build of striking the shadow's footfall + polearm would work quite well, because then you have skills working more effectively and have the legacy as a backup cut-off, if I understand it correctly.

Maybe polearm has changed a little since I played my last one (around a year ago, I think). I know with non-specialists it seems really really bad, even with distance added. Worse than any other one-handed weapon + shield in fact, and worse than two handed weapons.

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Murfkam (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 03:10 AM

#56416, "With Striking it would actually parry."
In response to Reply #7

I'm just too grumpy/impatient to wait for legacies to waste one on ward of blades.

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Garkoal (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 09:34 PM

#56386, "I have the log if you don't believe it."
In response to Reply #3

For most of the battle I was completely stunned (bad fillet), I had a bard healing but he wasn't doing that much damage. Finally he switched to axes and ate through roughly 400 hp in no time. Polearms really need some beefing up.

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Garkoal (Guest)	Sat 17-Mar-07 09:50 PM

#56391, "Here it is"
In response to Reply #6

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Theerkla	Sun 18-Mar-07 08:21 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003 1055 posts

#56420, "Were you being facetious"
In response to Reply #8

Or am I just bad at reading logs? Looks to me like he was defending like a champ and kicking your ass, until he switched to axes and you started hitting him.

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Garkoal (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 01:03 PM

#56427, "RE: Were you being facetious"
In response to Reply #10

True he defend better with polearm, but he hit maybe four times with it. Polearms shouldn't be dodged so easily is what I mean, eleven rounds of combat I dodged every blow. Polearms need some more offense.

If you would take polearm over anything, why?

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Garkoal (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 01:10 PM

#56428, "Nevermind Kastellyn answered that question, I still thi..."
In response to Reply #13

notext

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Daurwyn (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 04:46 PM

#56432, "RE: Were you being facetious"
In response to Reply #13

Well, I find polearm is good against the wilderness characters. Against druids, you can tank the CoW and Treant (and beastcall) and still put out decent damage with chop etc, if your saves are good.

Rangers, who are good at dodging melee, will struggle to hit you much past distance, and yet you will be able to damage them using chop. So that's not bad either (particularly if they are outlanders or beastmasters).

Finally, it will make a number of thieves think twice before jacking you. Maelstrom is good but it does have things that prevent you using it in certain scenarios.

BUT, the main thing, I guess, is that you might not be alone. So improved defense is worth it if tanking is your job and damage is other people's job.

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Marcus_	Sun 18-Mar-07 08:18 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003 681 posts

#56435, "RE: Were you being facetious"
In response to Reply #17

All that being said, polearms took kind of a harsh blow when the weapon dodging table was tweaked.. they used to be both hard to dodge and hard to parry..

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Kastellyn	Sun 18-Mar-07 09:59 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003 864 posts

#56423, "RE: Because polespec are the worst in melee."
In response to Reply #2

Right on, I know where you're coming from, since my first polearm warrior had some of the same thoughts. Fighting polearm specs changed my mind, though. My opinions:

Charge set is the only good skill they get. Cutoff is a poor mans entwine. Everything else is not worth crap. Here's my bitchin' list on why I wouldn't pick one ever again:

Cutoff is badass; way more people spam flee than you might think, even knowing you're a polearm spec.

1. Poles are very easy to parry if you know them.

Yup. Not many classes do, but they're still pretty easy to parry.

2. Easy to dodge if you don't. A lvl 33 duergar vs a lvl 37 dwarf and using only dodge avoided nearly 100% of my polearm attacks for 5 rounds. I switched to axes and he went to writhing in two. WTF?!

I'd say polearms are 'relatively easier to dodge if you're a high-dex race', but then again, so are axes. Based on the log posted below, you hit him 4 times, he dodged 15 times (pretty sick, but he is a high-dex race), and parried twice. That's right about what I'd expect to see against a defensive weapon like polearm. If he was a fire giant, that would have been a much different fight.

Don't legsweep someone who's held; see 'help thrust' instead.

3. They parry like axes. Worse even. Distance makes you only average in defenses.

Meh. I don't know the actual numbers, but my experience has shown they parry better than axes.

4. If you pick a high-dex race, you can't use most polearms for weight.

Drawback to a high-dex race polearm spec. I'm cool with this. There are lighter polearms out there, just not a lot of them.

5. If you can't outtank, outdamage or hold onto your pole - cut off becomes near pointless except in gangs and legsweep is only lagging yourself out when another spec could be finish them with damage. Assassins with dual wielded weapons outtanked me easily. Thieves, not so much, but again they're not well practiced.

Yeah, I suppose, though cutoff is still pretty badass.

6. In situations you are fighting non-melee classes, polearms have bad damage averages and are still parried okay. But against those classes, cutoff is far less useful because they word if they're not about to grind you into the dust.

Remind me again why you're using polearms against a non-melee class? You're a warrior, you have ten weapon types to choose from! Don't use the worst weapon choice against a certain type of class just because you spec'd in it.

If that wasn't enough reason to delete, I was just dying left and right to mobs I couldn't tank while ranking. Polearms are bad against players, bad against mobs and are a pain to use under maledicts, disarming, fights where you need to maledict or fights where you need to defend. Polearms need something more. Taking flail and using a shield would have offered better utility, better offense and better defense in ALL situations. Taking Maelstrom would eliminate all set backs to taking flail over polearms. It was too frustrating to imagine.

Polearms are not the uber-weapon. Neither are swords, flails, axes, daggers, hands, spears, etc. They each have their uses, strengths and weaknesses, and the superiority of each type is situationally dependent. The best warriors, the ones who scare me the most, are the ones who know *exactly* which weapon to use at each stage of the fight, and are willing to go off-spec because they know that's their best choice.

In the fight below (I know I'm armchair quarterbacking this, and it's easier to see things in hindsight, but still, that's why people keep logs and review them - it might help you next time), going up against a held duergar dagger spec, I'm starting with polearm charge, switching to axes, hitting a whirl (huge), once he's down to gushing, switch to polearm, and either thrust or legsweep depending on if the hold has worn off. 90% of the time, that's one dead duergar.

Again, just my opinion, but I hate to see frustration like that interfere with your learning curve. And I'll also say that the addition of thrust as a skill was due to the staff (not me) recognizing that was a gap in the polearm repertoire.

Kastellyn the Devourer of Magic, Lord of Legends

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Nightwiggler (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 10:23 AM

#56424, "Just so you know.... txt"
In response to Reply #2

The killingest warrior (I won't say of all time, but *certainly* of the third/fourth age) was a polespec. Search for Blitzenturt.

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CraftedD (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 01:17 PM

#56430, "Heh, i posted my below comment without having read this..."
In response to Reply #12

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CraftedD (Guest)	Sun 18-Mar-07 01:17 PM

#56429, "BLITZENTURT??? n/t"
In response to Reply #1

n/t

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