Mon Mar 12 02:04:05 2007

At 7 o'clock PM, Day of Freedom, 25th of the Month of the Ancient Darkness
on the Theran calendar Zel perished, never to return.

Now who the hell can I use as my meat shield? This makes me sad. We didn't interact much due to your tendency to go off on our own to take care of what you needed to take care of, be it raiding Refuge or gaunting/tesseracting criminals. But I liked you from a player viewing a character standpoint. Forget the haters. I won't go into how my character viewed you until I delete/die. Though I wish I had given my IC advice regarding the servitors a bit earlier. Circumstances may have been different.

For those wondering I basically suggested that she either teleport/leave the city whenever her servitors became aggressive (such as when Outlanders attacked the archon/devil and then would flee so that it would attack them and therefore break the law) or yell out a warning to all bystanders not to enter the area for their own safety. I figured if she gave a warning then she could slide by on a technicality of not breaking the law. Anyone who entered after this warning were basically doing so at their own risk. It's like when cops cordon off an area. They do so for your own safety, not theirs.

Also, regarding a post on this thread. I have outrun Ghenghir after he used insects on me while I was solo retrieving. He caught me in a snare after I fled from the Huntress, hit me with insects, and I managed to flee and then outrun him to make it onto the road from where I escaped. So it can be done if you know how.

I've rewritten this goodbye note probably 20 times now, and I think I have finally gotten it short enough to say what I want without pages of rambling complaints.

Firstly, I came up with Zel right when I age-died with Paskat. I suppose I really wanted to play another successful tribunal, and really had my sights set upon vindicator or justiciar, but that proved harder than I thought. Conjurers are unbelievably difficult to keep from breaking the laws, no matter what precautions I took (and please don't try to give me advice like use noarea, I've had many hero conjurers before this).

I was also rather disappointed with my tribunal experience overall, especially the last 150ish hours of my life where the only leadership/imm attention I would get was negative and for things that were really not within my control. But, them's the breaks. People figured out that just by attacking my archon/devil, they could abuse that by letting the pet track them into town even while I was inside the Spire or on the outskirts of the city, and it got to the point where I couldn't even use servitors anymore when I was on duty.

For all the people that would go to Dioxide's to complain that I flagged them unjustly, get a life. If I wanted to play a trib that was abusing the system, then it was in my role and you should have handled it in the game or spoken to the imms/tribunal leadership rather than trying to publicly flame me. I wasn't corrupt, but I didn't strictly follow the rules that were imposed upon me. I did have reasons for what I did.

Anyhow, thanks to everybody that interacted with me. See you in the fields.

Zel/Paskat/Nivult

I've had two or three tribs with you around. and what put me off a lot was that you would go and retrieve, or attempt to retrieve on your own, irregardless of what plan was being put together.

Was this in your role or just how you are? I can't remember the particulars but twice you tipped our hand (Not with Tallanalas) and we had to bail out because Outlanders had tim to mass.

The other thing was you seemed to be on IRC or something because people would talk to you and you wouldn't respond. But in short order you would ask a question and go silent.

Some times this was in conjunction with you solo retrieving so that can be forgiven. But over all I just got the impression you didn't care about what was happening IC.

That being said, people, myself included, sang high praise of your ability. I don't know howyou managed to keep your Badge with all the exploits availible to people over Tribunal conjurers. Good job!

You probably gave me the most fun I've had so far on CF when you gaunted me to Galadon during the brief stint when I was wanted. I was a little disappointed that you didn't respond back to my "thbthbthbthbt" when I finally managed to find my way out of the city and flee back to the woods. It might have been the start of an RP session between us, but oh well. Was fun seeing you on.

Sounds to me like you wanted the rewards, but didn't want to follow the rules. There's a reason there's very few Tribunal conjurer's. Guess you just weren't up to the challenge of doing it the right way, like most others. You should get a lesson or two from Eoal.

"but I didn't strictly follow the rules that were imposed upon me"

Your lack of adhering to the Tribunal law obviously caught up to you, and you want to try and place blame on other people for posting logs of your corruption. If you can't handle being put in the public eye for questionable actions, then you shouldn't be doing said questionable actions. That is, and always will be, a part of the game. So you have no one other than yourself to blame for not receiving the IC perks you wanted.

"and really had my sights set upon vindicator or justiciar"

I thought you were abusing Tribunal powers constantly, and perhaps because of a lack of immortal eyes, you got away with a lot of it. Pretty crappy. You played Paskat in the same crappy manner. Go plague a different cabal.

Granted, I am biased. Granted, I haven't seen all the situations. But what we saw, let't think?

We saw you making people wanted when YOUR charmies were striking them. Bite me if I am wrong, but isn't it clear violation of the laws?

In general, I would expect a bit more from the char who was leader of Spire once. I bet you was 100% aware you are breaking the laws and still abusing the WANTED button. Using the fact that IC there is nothing Outlanders can do. As they are not the ones applying to laws. Hence people were angry and bringing all these stuff to OOC forums.

But again, Spire conjurer is insanely hard to play. And again, you was aware of that before you rolled him. Hence you didn't have your promotion. Which makes me happy and makes me think Imms are actually watching Spire.

I adore your bravery as usual, and your desire to fight. But from the point of view of being quality Tribunal that wasn't your greatest char. Sorry.

>For all the people that would go to Dioxide's to complain that I flagged them unjustly, get a life. If I wanted to play a trib that was abusing the system, then it was in my role and you should have handled it in the game or spoken to the imms/tribunal leadership rather than trying to publicly flame me. I wasn't corrupt, but I didn't strictly follow the rules that were imposed upon me. I did have reasons for what I did.


If people don't want to stick to the way they ought to be doing things in a cabal, especially a cabal that involves Xp penalties for members doing what they ought not be doing, then don't ####ing join said cabal. It's like making a Maran who decks himself out in tainted but not anti-good eq. It may not be zapping you, but you're still pissing all over the cabal with what you do.

I'm sick to death of all these Tribunals who say "Well I didn't always do what I should have been, but it was in my role". Just because it's in your role doesn't make it okay. If you want to be in a certain cabal, stick to the f'ing guidelines of the cabal. Why is that so hard for people?

Conversely, his point about people using forums to pass judgement on characters remains, and that ruins a lot more characters than flags ever have. The system would run a lot more smoothly if people followed the simple rule of not posting as an active character, possibly excluding uncommented logs. There's a couple players who either don't understand or don't care that their OOC antics unfortunately impact any IC presence they could have established. (Most recently, half of Outlander for reasons I can't fathom. Holy useless forum squabbles.)

Moreover, had the issue regarding the flags or servitors been brought through the proper channels, there may have been action taken, assuming the accusers aren't full of crap, which they often are.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It was obvious this player had no intent of playing by the cabal rules. And in a cabal like Tribunal, it's all about the regulations. If they want to be an asshat in the game, then they should be ready to take the heat that's waiting for them.

Zel was an obvious asshat, flagging people (injustly) and saying things like "You're a career criminal, why would you care?" Paskat played the same way. I'm beginning to have a serious dislike for this person. It's getting old, them trying to play the hardass Tribunal.

That said, if I have a log of questionable actions done by an abusive Tribunal, I'll use the proper channel, as described by the Immortal staff. If nothing results of it after a while, I'll probably hold onto the log for when they are gone.

I interacted with both characters as an enemy and a friend, I never saw anything I would damn either character over. As for taking the heat he did not say he was not willing to take the heat, just leave it IC and not resort to ooc forums to paint a picture of a character that is obviously no more then half the story.

As for Paskat, he was made Provost obviously some Imms didn't think he was doing a bad job.

Read his good-bye thread (Paskat it is). He himself admited he was 'hardarse to known criminals'. Which, if you wish to translate it on normal language, without positive bias that each player grants himself, translates as: "I would mark Outlanders wanted anytime I have slightest reason to do so. Because then my cabal/myself can abuse uber powers on them and find them more easily. But they 1) will break the law sooner or later anyways 2) can't argue with me IC. So screw it, I will use what I can"

While this philosophy might be good enough for some other cabal, it is NOT ok in Spire. In my humble biased opinion.

But anyways, not like I care. All of us are not angels.

>Because then my cabal/myself can abuse uber powers on them and
>find them more easily.

Tribunal's powers are uber? You've been on the other side of the fence too long.

Uber might be the wrong word, but it was not the idea of the post

Vindicator and Provost powers are pretty cool though, don't you agree? When they have Scales it is Which is rare when I work on that, muahaha.

They've got some good stuff. I think Outlander leaders have a better setup in many (not all) ways now (in that their powers are a fair match but work on everyone, not just wanted people), but that's me.

nt

I'm trying to remember the last time I was killed by out-of-range special guards and the like, and I want to say I'd need to go back to the days of Arbiter for that.

I mean, yes, when I'm a level 25 wanted guy I sure as hell am looking around with my head on a swivel for the Vindicator if one is around. I've been beat silly by out of range Provost Lieutenants. Killed, even indirectly? Not that I can remember. Out of range doesn't so much scare me.

In range, I'm more worried about the Outlander power set. Not that, even with insect swarm, it's crack-ass awesome, because it isn't -- but it's a relatively good set of power for killing better players. You can get surprised by insect swarm. You shouldn't generally get surprised by manacles or even bloody shackles.

Insects scares the crap out of me simply because you CANNOT (*) out run a druid or ranger in a forest. You'd better be able to outdamage your opponent(s) at the Refuge if you get insected there, otherwise there is no escape. Getting insected on terrain where I can run as fast as my opponent is no big deal.

As far as I recall though, Outlander have just as many out of PK powers as Tribunal and can use these powers on anyone (unlike tribunal who can only use them on criminals). So..

(*) Unless you're a shifter with gazelle/cheetah, or a shifter with air forms.

A good example how a poor choice of one word can make thread go away from topic

Addition of insects was a nice move. If I had them when I was playing ranger, I would be deadly as hell. I can't argue with that.
And I agree with you on Tribunal powers as well. They are nice but have their limitations.

The whole point of the initial post was that many Tribunals like to place wanted flags to remove these limitations from their powers. Which angers people.

I think making Outlander leaders perma-wanted would cause less hatred *shrug*

Moreover, had the issue regarding the flags or servitors been brought through the proper channels, there may have been action taken, assuming the accusers aren't full of crap, which they often are.

Without going into details as to my character, I ran into this with Zel, and DID take it to proper channels. Whether anything came of it, I sure as hell didn't hear anything. I know you really can't due much based off specific incidents, as people DO make mistakes, but it IS irritating as hell to have the nuisance of a warrant thrown on incorrectly. Especially when it *FEELS* like you have no recourse, because even if something is done, it seems to tend to be after a bit of observation is done, and is rarely mentioned to the accusers. Secondly, by the time that's done, you've usually gotten killed with the flag, so it doesn't really serve you much good. It'd be nice if the Spire had some sort of "Alright, you're right. Soandso DID #### up, and here's our settlement of your lawsuit".

While it is hardly realistic and I don't think we will see anything like that, it would be nice to have some kind of feedback on these requests. Because, as you noticed already, Zel might have been punished during his career, but sure is hell noone of us, outsiders, noticed anything. Which breeds hatred and disappointment. And brings people to OOC forums to punish the char in some way at least. With public FOO or something like that.

Just my two cents.

You know, if you are an Outlander and have been marked ... let us say X+ times in Galadon.. I would love to see you get automarked the next time you entered Galadon. This would make people who flaunt the laws have something to truly lose when they build up ill will in a center.

Seriously, how can you gripe when your entire freaking cabal is basically Outlaw with nature hugs? You start fires, you corrupt the law officials, you strong arm merchants... hmm, I would love to see you get the selection for perma-criminal status.

X+5 for the rest of the populace would be nice to see as well. Battle tends to be filled with unlawful characters and having their members get perma-marked may actually make a few of them give a damn about obeying the laws.

Being in Tribunal is a "damned if you do & damned if you do not" proposition. Basically everyone who gets flagged takes umbrage and them you are a target to them for the rest of yours/theirs existence, whichever ends first. Couple that with having a dedicated enemy, Outlander, that seems to get more and more powerhouses in their cabal makes it poor choice for anyone not a glutton for pain.

Now I have a limited viewpoint having only played one Outlander, one Tribunal, a couple of Villagers and a few Fortress guys. But seriously even my Imperial saw Tribunals as dirt beneath his toes to be used to regear and gold source for donations.

Tribs should get the ability to petition for a player to be denoted as career criminal. Whether it be for a single settlement or the entire Tribunal jurisdiction.

Still ####ty to get misflagged though, I can understand the angst.

>Conversely, his point about people using forums to pass
>judgement on characters remains, and that ruins a lot more
>characters than flags ever have. The system would run a lot
>more smoothly if people followed the simple rule of not
>posting as an active character, possibly excluding uncommented
>logs. There's a couple players who either don't understand or
>don't care that their OOC antics unfortunately impact any IC
>presence they could have established. (Most recently, half of
>Outlander for reasons I can't fathom. Holy useless forum
>squabbles.)
>

Unfortunately this is all too true. I've been guilty of this myself. It's easy to post when you're pissed off. I will also say though in large part people do this to "out" the players because even when proper channels were followed in the past, nothing was done. (No not every time, but often enough)

>Moreover, had the issue regarding the flags or servitors been
>brought through the proper channels, there may have been
>action taken, assuming the accusers aren't full of crap, which
>they often are.

Uhh, in one log posted, the Tribunal imm was on and talking and aware. You may notice Zel con died while still a Trib. I'm not going to start badmouthing imms (Mostly because I like Maarmath), but I know one of my current characters tried going through the proper channels about this and nothing ever got done. I know someone else on this same thread did the same. Zel blatantly flagged people for attacks caused by Zels own servitors in protected cities, and not just once or twice. This was never a big secret, it was not an uncommon thing to see, and yet nothing was done.

On a completely related note, in my many years on CF I've probably been flagged wrongly about 2 dozen times. Better than half of those were deliberate and not a result of a misunderstanding. Most of those times I did try going through appropriate channels via notes and tells. Do you know how many times the flag was ever removed, even when speaking to an imm from the cabal? 0. What good did it ever do me to try and go through "appropriate channels" when the imm will tell you to talk to the Provost, and the Provost has and always will have the opinion "why would I take the word of a criminal over a Magistrate"?

I'm trying very hard to be non-confrontational here, but your post really does sound very naive. In the entire history of CF how many bad flags were ever actually removed by a higher up in the Spire or cabal imm? I don't think I've ever once heard of anyone having it done. Thats something to think about.


>
>valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It can be hard to get a flag removed when it's been placed incorrectly. One of the biggest things that makes this impossible is that most of the time the person has died by the time a complaint is read.

In the 99% of the times when no imm is watching, someone has to be fetched to go through the logs, which adds time to the process. You know all of this, of course.

With my Trib leaders and as a heroimm, I removed a number of flags. Generally, if the Trib that made the mistake was on I would make them remove the flag.

As for "going through the proper channels," there can be several, which does make it more difficult to tell how to get results. Of the whole time I was a heroimm (4 months?) I can count the number of complaint emails I received on one hand, and they were all emailed after a log had been posted about it on Dio's.

Ironically, while Lino was a mortal, I had more complaints to handle as a result of Spenner than the rest of the Spire combined. And you weren't even handing out flags for much of it.

I get that. The biggest complaints I got as Spenner from people bitching at me were for not flagging people who had broken laws while I, as a Vindicator, were standing in town. I tried so hard to explain to some people that Vindicators CAN'T make people criminals and they just never seemed to get it. I'd also get people complaining to me about flags other people had placed. Again, not anything in the Vindi guidelines about removing flags or making other Magistrates do it. Not if you are following the chain of command properly anyway.

I can understand you not getting many emails as a heroimm though, since really all heroimms can do is work in the description room and work on their area. A heroimm really doesn't have much to do with the running of the cabal. Anytime in the past I've tried to talk to the heroimm of a cabal about anything, I was always foisted off on a leader or told to find a higher imm.

Actually, most of the complaints were people saying you were breaking the laws. For example, attacking them in town when they weren't wanted (though perhaps had done something worthy of being warranted) or other similar stuff. If you played a "by the books" Trib as you implored others to do above, you can see that baseless accusations plus people not understanding the laws or the positions of the cabal add up to a lot of fruitless complaints.

Back at the end of December there were a lot of people getting hysterical about no imms watching over Trib. A large part of my time at that point Was spent watching the cabal as opposed to what most heroimms are stuck doing. I posted on both forums asking people to email me if they had concerns about abuse that couldn't be handled IC. At this time, I was the only official immortal for the cabal and I still didn't get any emails.

Sure, people might not have read them or forgotten, but I think even if they had, a bigger part of the problem is petty player behavior, trying to damage another character in OOC environments. Which is a shame. It always sours my feelings toward a cabalmate when I see them post things like that, and when I see things posted about them. There's a lot of ambiguous behavior in this game, and once you start viewing things through a negative lens a character can look pretty bad, pretty fast.

Paskat I think....

I hate to say it, but that's how it went down.

Sometimes artery and such make people scream even if the fight is started so they removed it after I was flagged for defending myself with an artery strike.

Which, of course, I think has great value

I've had two bad flags removed, both by Tribunal Imms. The problem was that the Imms refused to remove the flags OOC. Which meant my character had to have a legitimate roleplay reason to challenge a flag. As far as getting bad flags, until I played an Outlander, I only received those two. Once I started playing an Outlander, I've gotten at least 5 that I can recall, maybe more.

In light of that disparity, the appropriate channel IC approach is unfortunate because it means that an Outlander, for example, will never be able to make use of "the appropriate channels" and get a bad flag removed. And yet conversely, the Outlander is the cabal character most likely to receive bad flags - and often do.

So that's point one - that the person most likely to receive bad flags is the same person that can't get it removed "through the appropriate channels."

Point two is related:
One of the saving graces to bad flags is that they are little more than an inconvienence... with one exception: raiding Tribunal while you are playing an Outlander. Under that circumstance, they can be extremely debilitating.

Again, the person most likely to receive the bad flag is the person who not only cannot go "through the appropriate channels," but is also the person likely to suffer the most consequences from it.

So, overall, I'm not sure "the appropriate channels" is an effective solution to the situation of most harm from bad flags.

Now. All that being said:
Outlander leaders have insect swarm now.
I'd be happy if Outlanders were just perma-wanted at level 40 at this point because the situation now seems balanced to me. I feel just as sorry for the raiding wanted outlander dealing with a wanted flag as I do for the raiding trib dealing with an Outlander leader and insect swarm. Either one has to be very good at what they do to succeed. In conclusion, IMO bringing back insect swarm makes the appropriate channels process workable again from a balance perspective.

OK. There's my opinion on the balance.

Now, my request from you and the Imms:
Could you please give clarity to the role that bad flags and corrupt Tribunal play in CF? Could we just have an Imm come out and say "You know what, bad flags are part of the game and Tribunals are given extreme leeway to make them. In fact, a Tribunal will probably never be punished as long as s/he can justify his/her actions."

From my perspective, that is the status quo, but it's not official. If one of you could come out and make that official, it would alleviate so much complaining about corrupt Tribs.

I mean, at first I got frustrated at things like Tribunal leaders letting Imperials come into the Spire. Then letting them strike the Executioner. Then letting them actually kill the Executioner. And yet not flag the Imperials. But then I realized a pattern - the Imms wanted corrupt Tribs to be part of the game as long as they don't go too far. If you could somehow express that, I think it would aid immeasurably.

Thanks for reading.

But how much leeway is too much for corrupt Tribs? What we have here is someone who serially plays Tribs who are pretty loose with the RP restrictions supposedly imposed on a Tribunal character. This is just bad roleplay, and ignoring the things that should make playing the character more of a challenge. Anyone can do things they shouldn't do when they know the odds of an imm catching them are slim. Tribunal unfortunately has a long history of not enough attention paid to the actions of it's members, and I speak as someone who was in the cabal several times. I LIKE the Spire. But you can't keep having every other person in the cabal "roleplaying" being corrupt. That just defeats the entire purpose for the cabal to exist.

>...Just because it's in your role doesn't make it okay. If you want to be in a certain cabal, stick to the f'ing guidelines of the cabal. Why is that so hard for people?

This is for the Imm's to regulate if someone is abusing the system then they can take action. Roles that don't perfectly adhere to a cabal's philosophy or stray from the norm in terms of how people play them should not be disallowed unless they are abusing game mechanics/rules to give themselves an unfair advantage. It's tricky with tribs because being wanted can have significant implications and any use of it that even remotely looks uncalled for can feel abusive but I don't think this is always the case.

As for Zel, she was promoted to Galadon, played 250 hours and was not booted/demoted for any of her actions, I think that itself says volumes of how the Imm's felt.

>As for Zel, she was promoted to Galadon, played 250 hours and
>was not booted/demoted for any of her actions, I think that
>itself says volumes of how the Imm's felt.

This would fall in the category of running your mouth without knowing all the facts.

ok, so she was demoted 4 hours before con death (According to a post below) sorry I haven't played much for about a week and missed that. But I think that strengthens the main point I was making that this is something for Imm's to regulate and in this case it looks like that worked, that being some Imm did think she broke the rules and busted her down for it.

So I will amend what I stated:

As for Zel, she was promoted to Galadon, played 250 hours and was not booted, but was demoted in the end for her actions, I think that itself says volumes of how the Imm's felt.

He obviously was doing shady things. He wasn't some carebear wrapped up in a blanket. He was an abusive prick. Often.

I got demoted at about my 246th hour out of of 250, and it wasn't for doing anything shady, it was because a servitor hit somebody in town that it wasn't supposed to. Saying the that all of the hundreds of my warrants and interactions I had was shady is like saying you're an idiot based solely upon your two posts in this topic.

You seem to have a personal vendetta against me, and that's fine. Just be sure and post your current character's name so I can tell you what a ####head you are on your goodbye thread.

I tend not to bring publicity to myself by naming off a cock list of characters. So, no, I'm not going to compare sizes. If you want to list your previous characters, go right ahead.

I'm going for you slid by under the radar. Tribunal has one Imm, and not a very active one either.

I still stand by what I posted save the demotion, which came right at the end of her life and I missed because I haven't played for much for the last week.

Corrupt or misplayed Tribs are nothing new in a cabal that has perennial issues with not having enough imm oversight and things being allowed to get ####ed up. The cabal FREQUENLT lacks an imm who has the time to really watch the members. Not being booted isn't an indication of correctness of action, it's just a matter of falling through the cracks. The demotion to Seantryn from Galadon is a pretty good indicator that things were NOT done correctly by Zel.

nt

>Corrupt or misplayed Tribs are nothing new

Yep, seen it a hundred times but what I've never once see is an IMM post that says "corrupt" or "hard ass" trib is not allowed or against any rules.

>The cabal FREQUENLT lacks an imm who has the time to really watch the members.

I don't restrict my RP nor do I feel others should restrict theirs due to the lack of an IMM, if there is no IMM to watch them, and the other IMMs online can't handle the oversight then the cabal should be shut down simple as that. But to say because no one pays attention you can't play how you want to is just asinine, if that was the case the mud should shut down whenever there are zero IMM's online since there is no one to watch anyone.

>The demotion to Seantryn from Galadon is a pretty good indicator that things were NOT done correctly by Zel

That's the only point I sort of agree with you on but considering the fact that it was a demotion and not a boot, I would say it does not look like who ever demoted her felt it was too serious. Either way I am done littering this goodbye thread.

>As for Zel, she was promoted to Galadon, played 250 hours and was not booted/demoted for any of her actions, I think that itself says volumes of how the Imm's felt.

Uhh did you notice her title on con death? While I appreciate your POV, try to have a clue first. Kay?

> If you want to be in a certain cabal, stick to the f'ing
>guidelines of the cabal. Why is that so hard for people?

Specifically, I disagree with this part. Why shouldn't people make rulebreakers? I think it's interesting when characters toe the line don't necessarily get along with everyone in their cabal, and so forth. With tribunal it's a bit worse because you're inflicting ooc pain when you play a rulebreaker, but I think that's more an argument for changing the dynamics of wanted flags than it is an argument against edgy (for want of a better word) characters.

It would be completely awful if everyone in the cabal were a misfit type, but if a few people are that keeps it interesting. If anything, I've always thought there should be more corrupt tribs and it's just too bad that it can't happen because wanted flaggings need to be policed due to the harshness of the penalty.

>> If you want to be in a certain cabal, stick to the f'ing
>>guidelines of the cabal. Why is that so hard for people?
>
>Specifically, I disagree with this part. Why shouldn't people
>make rulebreakers? I think it's interesting when characters
>toe the line don't necessarily get along with everyone in
>their cabal, and so forth. With tribunal it's a bit worse
>because you're inflicting ooc pain when you play a
>rulebreaker, but I think that's more an argument for changing
>the dynamics of wanted flags than it is an argument against
>edgy (for want of a better word) characters.

Edge is not the same as someone who deliberately pisses all over the reasons for the cabal to exist. How long would a Maran last who killed good people or who hung out with Evil? One of them got booted for buying a sword from an evil guy one time. What we have with "corrupt tribs" is the equivalent only on a much much more frequent scale. How is this GOOD?

>It would be completely awful if everyone in the cabal were a
>misfit type, but if a few people are that keeps it
>interesting. If anything, I've always thought there should be
>more corrupt tribs and it's just too bad that it can't happen
>because wanted flaggings need to be policed due to the
>harshness of the penalty.

The problem is already too many "corrupt" Trib roles. It's stupid. Every other guy in the cabal can't be corrupt or it just defeats the whole purpose for the cabal. See my Maran analogy. Or think about a rager using magic. Outlanders using coins just because it's easier than following their cabal guidelines? Each cabal has it's positves and negatives. The standard "I am a corrupt trib" excuse is just that. An excuse to ignore roleplay restrictions, and have an easier time of it and thats just ####ing lame.