Wed Apr 2 06:55:51 2014

At 11 o'clock PM, Day of Deception, 9th of the Month of the Grand Struggle
on the Theran calendar Orenshil perished, never to return.

Give the Marshal, and the Captain, the ability to raise people to maran as they see fit. Make it part of their leadership responsibilities like an imperial sect leader. Same with the Acolyte leadership. They can't see pk wins or losses, they can only see effort and if someone is stepping it up.


In the case of not matching play times with them, immortals can step in and maran people as well if someone gets lost in the cracks, as imms have been known to do with imperials that dont match playtimes with sect leaders.


I just solved the whole problem, without automating it. You want maran? Step it up and impress your Captain or Marshal. Your leaders, that should probably have the say in who they maran to fight at their side anyways.

Just a thought. A totally reasonable one imo.

I'm out. Perhaps you could get that implemented. Getting it automated was just another option I was throwing out (since it was work for empire).

See you in ESO.

I'm not terribly against the way the system is now. I just think it's too easy to fall through the cracks. At the very least the Marshall and Captain should be able to both vote in someone to maran status if they did something that made them feel they earned it. Maybe if both leaders wrote a note to baer or something, getting the double approval and then she can bump him at their request. That would be a good solution too to give them that sort of power.


edited to add

You know, maybe if someone rolled a captain or marshall, and decided thats what they wanted to start doing, agreeing together and taking it to baer when they feel its deserved, she would let it slide.

As a leader, you have the power to make #### happen. Someone just has to try.

It would be in fort leader interests to Maran acolyte lots of people, even if quality is poor, because it strengthens their side.

Don't forget, in empire you have to spend to promote, and that guy might overthrow you even if you are not emperor.

Use tribunal as an example. Provost generally gets to pick his own provincials, and make recommendations for vindicator and justiciar which are usually respected and put into play. All provincials can induct, and promote other tribbys from city to city. In the past players haven't abused the power of making every tribby in sight a galadon magistrate just so defending the cabal is easier against criminals being that galadon is attached and outside the cabal. My experience is that you still have to earn your way up the ranks, and it takes a bit of time. I feel like if both the captain and marshall had to agree on who to promote and when as a team, it would still work. It would also create inner cabal politics and discussions. I see no reason for players to abuse that system when a very similar system in place hasn't been abused. Just playing devils advocate here, I don't generally play team fort so I don't have a dog in this fight.

Within the cabal all magistrates have same powers, bar leaders. In terms of galadon, don't forget you have deputise. Also, I used to find that people generally raided when no one was on unless they had completely overwhelming numbers. At which point galadon vs non galadon is almost irrelevant. Not entirely I'll grant you.

(AFAIK at least battle/fort) leaders get a command called members that gives them a "Guestimate" on how many PK's someone has. A leader can see brackets IE 1-15 pk's 15-30 PK's etc etc

Hope to see you around again after a break. One of the things I always loved about outlander is you get our your powers as soon as you get in.

Yes, and in my death rattle I'm trying to change fortress to be like that. There is ZERO reason that it should be the way it is. Marans and Acolytes only and we can lose this scribe and squire stuff all together.

I don't plan on coming back honestly. I'll lurk all three of the forums for a few more weeks I think, but it'll fade out.

>There is ZERO reason that it should be the way
>it is. Marans and Acolytes only and we can lose this scribe
>and squire stuff all together.

You've heard reasons, you just don't like them so you're disregarding them.

>>It's not an accident that all the cabals in the game look a little different. If Fort's scheme isn't to your liking, maybe something else is.

1) Fort is to our liking and the idea of the acolytes and maran on paper is great. We would like to be able to play Fortress as it is on paper.

Sadly how Acolytes and Maran are promoted is what falls into contention here and we have shown seven PBF timelines that point of evidence how people are made Maran in far less than 100 hours, don't even have double digit kills, or are even in the negative. The lack of formalized promotion system is the breakdown in the fortress "scheme" while also showing showing subjectivity, and bias.

>>By design, the many different options in the game are different. The idea is that you can choose ones you like and other people can choose ones they like. The idea is not that every option should be normalized to what you like at the expense of everyone who prefers something else.

2) What is the expense to "everyone who prefers something else" if we have a formal, tangible, and obtainable goal that states if we do this we will earn Maran/Acolyte?


3) To devil advocate myself. We can agree that the PBF search was for confirmation bias because we shouldn't have to waste 100+ hours of our life to obtain nearly the same level of powers that any other cabal gets, can't we?

I too hate the wait for Acolyte/Maran, but that is the theme of the cabal. Each cabal has their own theme. Carrion Fields is an RP/PK game. Themes are an integral part of that (especially considering the way the majority of the player base sees being in a cabal as integral). Imagine how much worse it the level of roleplay would degrade if it really did just become Team Y vs. Team X.

The Theme of Maran/Acolyte is that you dedicate your life to zealous killing evil and/or protecting good. When you've proven yourself to the gods, they might grant you powers beyond that of a normal soldier. Prove yourself in death and you get to be Maran Tara'bal, forever fighting evil....

Having leaders promote doesn't make sense. Having automatic ways to promote doesn't make sense. Benchmark requirements don't make sense. Those things don't fit the theme and spirit of the cabal. Sure, they definitely would make it more convenient for folks who don't care/aren't interested in theme and just want the powers. That's not what CF is though.

Also, don't be so dramatic about leaving. It's a game. Players come and go. Those that make a dramatic exit seem to be the ones that keep coming back. See you when you get back.

I don't know too much about your personal situation, but here's some things that might make you think:

1) Yes, each cabal have different cabal dynamics. Like Baer's post below with Empire Auto Induct/all above Sect can promote or like Scion get all powers but have a short cap. Maran is that the promotion to Maran/Acolyte is IMM-done.

***This is your point of contention

I've only played one Fort, it was made an Aco and made Leader in hours that are under what people say it takes. It was a disappointment of a character in terms of my RP/PK. I also don't think I would be considered an IMM favorite.

Now having said that. When I was playing it, it was the only character I had. That might go further than you think.

The impact of playing two/three/four different characters in different cabals with different alignments and you kind of get just that. You deleted Qeljgaard and for some reason I thought you won a role contest, but don't know.

I think if you read Rayihn's post and think about her comment about learning to 'flee', you might not have just avoided PKdeaths but you may have been able to garner more PKwins. There's no doubt that when she says people who are Maran'ed/Aco'ed are treated like Leaders is wrong, because they are. So to hold off on promoting someone is pretty ideal for Fortress.

Why not roll up something in another cabal, evil cabal, and just slaughter Fortress squires/scribes?!?

Say you're an elite blade Duergar warrior. You're not too bothered by mantle of the phoenix or eyes of flame, but ubiquitous goodie wrath type weapons, lightforge, and stuff like prayer beads are going to make your day all kinds of painful.

Heck, phoenix brand + lightforge means you can hit a vuln on anybody without having to carry a slew of weapons. What pre-leader Imperial power can compare to that?

Say you're a non-duergar A-P with less than 75 PKs. You're not already vuln light, you can prep against holy damage. But your spiffy fire control you went through so much to obtain is useless against this Maran, you don't even get a chance to TRY to overcome their saves by casting sleep, and you're an A-P at hero who can't use his controls. Full ABS gives you a shot against a paladin or an offensive shifter maybe, but as likely as not you're just going to have to spend the next hour regathering wands after getting nowhere, while the paladin types 'co sanc'.

It's not 'nearly the same level of powers'. Maran powers give unique, distinct, often gamechanging advantages in a lot of the fights that Maran are supposed to be having. Not all cabal powers are supposed to be a direct boost to combat prowess (although Maran does have one of those too) and some of the best powers in the game IMO don't have any influence at all on the fights that take place.

Or maybe you'd trade mantle and eyes for resist and deathblow? My A-P's would have liked that too.

Same goes for:

Black Circle
Dark Feast
Black Shroud
Black Channel
Imperial Spies

If fort powers were as powerful as they are being made out to be then why is there 2 fortress members out of the top 50 PK'ers from PBF stats while the Empire has 8?

I just don't see fort powers as being "that powerful" Also, the numbers don't point to them being all that great either.

In part, having a record number of PKs is sbout having a lot of enemies. 200 PKs as evil is easier than 100 as good, regardless of powers.

will lead to more PK's. There is no doubt about that, and I fully recognize that PK statistics are skewed by this fact.

this also lends to my Oshui vs. Humbert PK stat opinion that Humbert is more of a "Benchmark" for a proper Maran PK count.

Really it is simply my opinion that when I look at the individual cabal powers offered by the various cabals in the game, rarely do I find myself thinking 'oh man, if I had xyz fort ability this would really do wonders for my pk count'. Conversely, I do find myself thinking that about some of the powers present in other cabals.


At the end of the day, all of that is just my opinion and I realize that not everyone shares it! I am ok with that

I'd rather my fire control A-P was up against an elite blade or even some battel berserkers than a maran warrior.

I can only think of 2-3 fort members who didn't fall under the category of "speed bump" for just about everything I've played recently.

Because I stopped giving a #### after I laughed my ass off.

I mean some powers have a niche that makes it really cool once you find it out. Dark feast all I can think of is the feasting on a PK, or maybe he thinks having the ability to summon/eat to heal is really great. Don't know, still scratching head.

It's a fine power, but uhhh mantle with fly, the auto attack, maybe I need to play a Maran. Cry seems pretty awesome.

Think he might have made mistake on adding dark feast

Imperial training is great. I agree. The rest, not so much. Some nice, but quite readily counterable. Let me know how your imperial training works out vs Necro or ap.

Eyes of flame is very nice against these two. Blinding and coming back to sleep someone with eyes is next to impossible unless they are clueless.

You showed promise and I was looking forward to fighting alongside you.

It was one of those things where I thought an assist (which I think I did the majority of the damage) would count for my first blood. Thanks for the induct anyway and just giving me a time period to get my finishing blow. I in turned walked a guy around (brand new to the game) and helped him to the same thing. He had 4 assists with me but we had to go and get one of his own (and ended up with two).

I was hoping you'd stick around. I don't get to play often much right now due to school/work, but was looking forward to when things die down a bit.

Come back...just don't tell anybody. (Shhhhh....your secret's safe with me!)

This is a game, and if you are not having fun anymore walk away and do something else. So now I am going to take my own medicine, read, and play some ESO.

I don't know your PK ratio, nor do I care. You are a hero (lvl 51 for some time) of the fortress you should be a Maran. Thanks for getting me out of a potential RL hour of sitting in the Kua-toa waiting off a plague.

I was really going to look forward to having 3 of the four spec paladins running around together. Sadly I ran out of fun before then.

I think this was generally a pretty solid character and I do think you got better at playing a paladin each time you took a shot at it.

But I also get the impression, based on your other post, that you think you were overdue for Maraning and I'm really not sure why you would feel that way. Historically, people who die a lot more than they kill (but are out there trying) do get Maran but they rarely get it very early.

Maran/Acolyte should be the default when you get inducted into fort - Maybe, just maybe people are tired of the 2ndary "vetting" done by a certain someone dictating who has full cabal privs vs not.

"Just Sayin!"

Yeah, I took a moment and thought better about stooping to that level. I deleted my post.

NT

I don't think many people who actually play Fort would pick that, if they understand it would come with an overall power downgrade. it

I agree that people want to be full marans, but over all I disagree, why wouldn't a Sub-Maran get some more skills/powers and be happy that they are progressing? Knowing that they are being rewarded for their hard work. Empires give promotions and new powers which are downgrades to the over all sect lord/emperor goal.

Maran/acolyte powers don't seal kills. They are just boosts.

I list fort powers as 'nice' but I don't think they are that out of skew power wise with other cabals.

To put my opinion into perspective, when you look at the top PK'ers sorted by PK wins you have 1 fort guy in the top 25. And that particular fort guy was running with an arguably broken quest form, which would lead me to attribute his performance above the norm being his quest form, and not Maran powers. Humbert was a wrecking ball Maran, I don't care if Oshui's #'s top Humbert's...and I still wouldn't have considered Humbert 'OP'

Out of the top 25 the breakdown is

5 Empire
3 Battle (surprised, but not too surprised at the low battle showing)
10 Scion (arguably best cabal powers in the game, and no IMM vetting to get them..unless you go the road of IMM induct which I haven't had to do)
2 Outlander
4 loaners
1 Fortress

I'm just not seeing any real data that points to fort powers being equal to, not to mention "Better than" other cabal powers.

Of course, you have more data than I do to look at...but...at the end of the day do you honestly believe fort powers are "OP" in comparison to others?

You can harp on Oshui for somethings, but he was a wrecking ball before he had that form. I'm not saying that the form didn't help later, just that he had a great offensive mindset and did well with it.

Take negative comments out about discrediting Oshui.

The fact remains that it takes an incredible amount of time to be Maran and those powers do not a power house make, they are no more an aid than any empire/outlander/battle/tribunal/etc gets against their targets. Yet they are delayed severely or denied to all but those that don't really need them, and oshui certainly didn't really need them. He used a prismatic wand on low HP guys and won, and then he seized the day with flyto/offense combo that could lag. He earned maran through and through, but he was the most absolute rarity to come out of the Fortress community.

Granted,

The pbase was lower and the dude loved to kill people, but I just took a look. He had 80 or so PK's before getting blaguar on sept 25 and ended up with over 340 PK's. Thats 260 odd PK's WITH blaguar and 80 or so without.

Edit: This is why I look at Humberts #'s more seriously, Humbert didn't take half the kills he "could have" while its quite obvious that Oshui would PK just about anything, anytime, anywhere, under any circumstances.

That having been said I still would cut that total in half just based on his IMM comments. Hell even Twist took a moment to ####bag this guy on his multikilling..and Twist posting on a PBF is not all that frequent.

Blaguar > any fort power

By the way, if you expand the data to "The top 50 PK'rs with PBF's" Fort only takes 2 spots out of 50, Oshui and Humbert. I completely fail to see how fort powers are "too strong" requiring the governance of an IMM to hand them out

Really, I suspect this is much more a "control" thing than any kind of balance issue. And the fact is, everyone knows it and nobody says it.

Honestly, it's impossible to discuss anything with you.

N/t

Sort PK stats by alignment. See how many of the top good-aligned characters were Fortress. Then talk.

Setting player skill and character combo aside, the largest factor on PK stats is probably how many victims you have available to PK. Good aligned characters mostly have less than a third of the targets that neutral/evil character have. So comparing good-evil-neutral PK stats is obviously not an apples-to-apples comparison, and certainly has very little, if anything, to do with the relative strength of cabal powers.

You're comparing apples and oranges. Making assertions that Fort powers are "underpowered" relative to other cabals based on this kind of PK data is a fairly poor measure for the following reasons:

1. Good alignment characters have a smaller pool of players to harvest PKs.
2. PK oriented players may be drawn to evils because it suits a more aggressive play style.
3. Evils may be far more battle-tested than their good aligned counterparts.

There are a whole slew of reasons why what you say might not be the case. This statistic alone is misleading. You're identifying a correlation in data but making far to many assumptions about the cause.

if you can't kill, you should never get maran.

30 wins to 50+ losses just doesn't cut it

You just made him a squire for life.

until he earned it

the other boosts he likely deserved for rp, trying hard, and doing generally well. but yes, he was maran too early / undeservingly based on the very basis of what a maran is.

How many maran/acolytes have you had and can we check your PBF scores to verify you deserved it?

The armchair quarterback is fun and all but it doesn't score points in the game.

And his numbers don't matter, because he's saying that if he were an admin he wouldn't have made him a Maran.

I agree with Dallevian, though I do think people with all heart should get made Maran, I think it should happen later in life when they're more veteran. If you prove you can kill evil and kill it well, then by all means they should get Maran early.

I'm not saying have a badass ratio like, 100-5 or reward the super conservative player. I'm saying if someone is getting results then they deserve Maran in <75 hours. Maran that guy who is 40-30 at 80 hours.

And if you want to play the 'Name your characters with experience game:'

Garwern
Gurzgred
Avalusci
Quiltell
Gazriac
Arlettien

...Maranation re: IMM watching you.

In Laesron's death thread, RayBaer admits that part of the reason it took so long to Maranate me (~180 hrs) was because when she first noticed the character, I had like 9 total PKs and 1 of them was a goodie (long story). So she probably thinks to herself, well, I'll wait a bit and maranate him when he does something cool or gets better at PK. So then (due to bad luck and timing) she doesn't get to see me and Elanya go into the Empire inners and kill Eleagra, she doesn't see me fighting anyone and everyone with a red aura, and she doesn't see me going ~30-20 over the next 100 hrs. So when she finally looks, she thinks "Oh #### this guy is way better than I thought, Maranation time!".

So the problem is that we have conflicting benchmarks as well as "needed" Immortal oversight.

It's going to make quantifying Maranation stats difficult, and probably going to piss off a fair number of people.

(I'm not going to get into the OOC implications that some people have made)

FYI, non-Baer people have made Maran in recent memory. Other people are paying attention and I think it's harder to fall through the cracks.

You just don't Maran in 50 hours when you're like 13-30 in PK.

At the same time, if we're all about cutting down on the "grind" of CF, how about making it so after 150 hours you automatically get MARAN or ACOLYTE or you get uninducted? I mean, I'd have to say if you can't "hack it" in a cabal after 150 hours, what the hell are you doing there.

Religious characters would still get more love (so there wouldn't be a change there as well-rp'd religious characters might still get earlier Maran or added perks), and perhaps some people would sit around idle for 150 hrs to get "instant" Maran but I'd imagine an IMM might notice that and look harshly upon those actions.

>I'm not saying have a badass ratio like, 100-5 or reward the super >conservative player. I'm saying if someone is getting results then >they deserve Maran in <75 hours. Maran that guy who is 40-30 at 80 >hours.

Which one of these characters met that criteria that you think should be the standard?
---------------------------------------------------------
Wed Sep 21 02:37:05 2011 at level 51 (43 hrs):
Garwern advanced to level 51 <PK: 7-6>

Fri Sep 30 11:17:14 2011 at level 51 (109 hrs): <<<<<<< BAM!
Baerinika made Garwern a Maran
----------------------------------------------------------
Sun Apr 17 02:38:28 2011 at level 51 (35 hrs):
Gurzgred advanced to level 51 <PK: 15-3>

Wed Apr 20 13:15:19 2011 at level 51 (59 hrs): <<<<<<< BAM!
Reksah made Gurzgred a Maran

Tue May 10 14:50:57 2011 at level 51 (181 hrs):
Baerinika made Gurzgred a Squire

Wed May 11 21:52:57 2011 at level 51 (190 hrs):
Rage Delete

Sun Jun 5 00:40:40 2011 at level 51 (305 hrs):
Adekar made Gurzgred a Maran
------------------------------------------------------------
Mon Aug 5 08:28:32 2013 at level 51 (56 hrs):
Gazriac advanced to level 51 <PK: 19-22>

Thu Aug 15 00:30:36 2013 at level 51 (94 hrs): <<<< Never made Maran?
Rage Delete <PK: 33-24>
---------------------------------------------------------------
Mon Nov 4 18:03:40 2013 at level 51 (74 hrs): (DEADLY!!!! BAM!)
Rayihn made Avalusci a Maran <PK: 21-36>
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Sat May 17 18:52:08 2008 at level 51 (64 hrs):
Quiltell advanced to level 51 <PK: 7-9>

Tue May 20 21:04:27 2008 at level 51 (86 hrs): <<<<<<<< BAM! Where is the 40-30?
Baerinika made Quiltell a Maran
---------------------------------------------------------------
Sat Jan 16 23:51:29 2010 at level 51 (16 hrs):
Arlettien advanced to level 51 <PK: 6-3>

Fri Jan 22 10:56:45 2010 at level 51 (44 hrs): <<<<<< BAM! 40-30?
Baerinika made Arlettien a Maran

Wed Feb 17 08:19:40 2010 at level 51 (102 hrs):
Hero Delete

Thu Feb 25 19:02:08 2010 at level 51 (150 hrs):
Baerinika has set Arlettien's constitution to 9 from 5. <<<<< YOU BURNED THROUGH CON WHICH MEANS YOU HAD A LOT OF DEATHS IN 150 hours.

My point was that you need to be getting results, and that hours shouldn't matter overly much to become Maran. You pulled numbers, often times not checking the hours between the pk wins you pulled, and the time I got Maraned. I went back, and filled in the blanks here and sort of updated your chart.


>
>>I'm not saying have a badass ratio like, 100-5 or reward the
>super >conservative player. I'm saying if someone is getting
>results then >they deserve Maran in <75 hours. Maran that guy
>who is 40-30 at 80 >hours.
>
>Which one of these characters met that criteria that you think
>should be the standard?
>---------------------------------------------------------
>Wed Sep 21 02:37:05 2011 at level 51 (43 hrs):
>Garwern advanced to level 51 <PK: 7-6>
>
>Fri Sep 30 11:17:14 2011 at level 51 (109 hrs): <<<<<<< BAM!
>Baerinika made Garwern a Maran
>----------------------------------------------------------

^ This Maranation is 60 hours later than when I heroed, and roughly 20pks later, judging by the PK wins and PK death dates on the PBF. That's not counting assists, so as a paladin I was 27-30 kills deep at 100 hours, not counting kills I didn't get the finisher in.


>Sun Apr 17 02:38:28 2011 at level 51 (35 hrs):
>Gurzgred advanced to level 51 <PK: 15-3>
>
>Wed Apr 20 13:15:19 2011 at level 51 (59 hrs): <<<<<<< BAM!
>Reksah made Gurzgred a Maran

^I was 15-3 at hero in under 40 hours. That's almost a kill every 2 hours while ranking. I checked the PK wins column in the 3 days between heroing and getting Maran. I clocked up 10 more PKs in the 3 days. That's getting results. Again, not counting the assists.


>------------------------------------------------------------
>Mon Aug 5 08:28:32 2013 at level 51 (56 hrs):
>Gazriac advanced to level 51 <PK: 19-22>
>
>Thu Aug 15 00:30:36 2013 at level 51 (94 hrs): <<<< Never made
>Maran?
>Rage Delete <PK: 33-24>

Never made Maran, correct. I thought he should have since after heroing he went 14-2 in that week.

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Mon Nov 4 18:03:40 2013 at level 51 (74 hrs): (DEADLY!!!!
>BAM!)
>Rayihn made Avalusci a Maran <PK: 21-36>

Avalusci was a severe underdog who had it tough from end to end. I never said be super deadly, I said get results, log some wins. Avalusci did that. You can read the PBF comments.

>-------------------------------------------------------------------
>Sat May 17 18:52:08 2008 at level 51 (64 hrs):
>Quiltell advanced to level 51 <PK: 7-9>
>
>Tue May 20 21:04:27 2008 at level 51 (86 hrs): <<<<<<<< BAM!
>Where is the 40-30?
>Baerinika made Quiltell a Maran

Quiltell got made Maran after he put down Kostyan solo. Quiltell's numbers aren't impressive, but his kills came against some of the most elite evil pkers who were once again completely in power. I was fighting Igbah/Kostyan and winning enough of the time to make it be noticed. Still getting results, just in quality vs quantity here.

>---------------------------------------------------------------
>Sat Jan 16 23:51:29 2010 at level 51 (16 hrs):
>Arlettien advanced to level 51 <PK: 6-3>
>
>Fri Jan 22 10:56:45 2010 at level 51 (44 hrs): <<<<<< BAM!
>40-30?
>Baerinika made Arlettien a Maran
>
>Wed Feb 17 08:19:40 2010 at level 51 (102 hrs):
>Hero Delete
>
>Thu Feb 25 19:02:08 2010 at level 51 (150 hrs):
>Baerinika has set Arlettien's constitution to 9 from 5. <<<<<
>YOU BURNED THROUGH CON WHICH MEANS YOU HAD A LOT OF DEATHS IN
>150 hours.

Again there's a 30 hour difference here between hero and Maran. I did a quick check and I added another ~15 wins, not counting assists, in that time.

Arlettien probably didn't deserve Maran that early. However, he was right after the purge, the first or second goodie to hero, I think? Anyway, I was basically the only Fort hero around because I was the first one there. So sure, this one isn't a good example, I'll give you that. When there's a purge you sort of get an express lane to fill out the game some.

My point is that promotion should be automated/put in mortal hands. KPH seem to be the #1 deciding factor and the guy you supported in the earlier posts was stating that you need 40-30 or better PK ration to be maran early or he thinks you're not worthy to be a maran AT ALL. Which is a butt load of kills and your characters proved that it wasn't the case and that you were very near a 1-1 ratio with nearly all your high profile characters. and the latest you made it was 86 hours. Why should others have to wait 130+ hours to get it? It you're getting in there and taking on odds and playing the game why shouldn't you get some boons?

With high KPH and KDR perception requirement it necessitates the need to not want to play when numbers are not favorable or at minimum even, and never take chances. As everyone (at least in this death thread) says they want someone who will scrap but the current mentality of the Maran/Acolyte promoters is you have win only so we can't scrap if we might lose otherwise our chance to be maran at a reasonable time is shot.

I can confirm that some top pk people as per the stats are selectively logging in chars at times when they have lots of enemies. Don't mind this myself as it combats the pendulum, but it does help them achieve the stats they get.

What concerns me about having a pk threshold is that it encourages people to sit at sweet spots. Someone with pk 30 0 may in fact be worse than someone with pk 5 5.

1.) I will point out all you are really talking about is maran and seem to have ignored acolyte with all of this fuss...

Now onto the meat of my point.

Being good at PK is one way to earn maran. It is the hard way to earn it. What constitutes "good" is going to depend on situational factors. If everyone in the cabal is like 5-30 then someone who is 15-30 might look good, if there are a lot of 100-15 chars then 15-30 looks less good.

The "easy" way to get maran is for people to interact with you and think very clearly... that dude is a maran. People who are hyper focused on PK generally come across a little thin to other people so they have a tougher time on this path. You might have a rich inner design on the character but if that doesn't result in creating the same impression on others then it doesn't count.

Above and beyond all that you have the situational limitations of the assessors. They are not around all the time, different people have different approaches, and even the same person can evolve their approach over time.

The end result is that you have a mechanic that is unique to the fort. Which is ultimatly the goal of differentiation. Is it frustrating and sometimes unfair, sure, but having goals to work towards increases investment in characters and makes for a better game.

I don't think any of your ideas about eliminating first tier or giving the power to leaders are bad (though the leaders thing is literally the same restraints as imms doing it, it could even make it harder because they have less visibility). I just think that fort is fine as is, it has even been on somewhat of a roll the last couple of years.

So I will conclude with the proverbial, if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

Personally, I would be surprised if someone that had 30 PKs in 100 hours did not get Maran.

Last time I played a Fort leader, which admittedly was 2+ years ago, 30 PKs, period, would put a guy in the top 20% of the cabal, as the vast majority had under 10.

I mean, other stuff goes into the equation, like not being a D-Bag, but I think it's reasonable to pose the question why you weren't made a Maran if you had 30 PKs, regardless of losses.

nt

1) I have gotten better at it far and wide. Not why I deleted.

2) I think we all are entitled to Maran/Acolyte as a whole. Name one other cabal that gets a pittance of the cabal power until Immortal gets a warm fuzzy to promotes? Empire is the closest numbers comparison and induction/promotion/and powers are automated, and also in the hands of Mortals. How many kills does an scribe need before their promoted? Why does it take SO long for promotions in general? How long has Daellyn been a to be squire? Seriously, He is helping the fortress that gives him "powers" he already gets before he is in the PK range. He is hero and been one for quite some time!

2.1) I mixed it up and took on odds because that's what keeps the game interesting for EVERYONE and sure I lost more than I won when I mixed it up. How many people can go in against an experienced War/Healer War/War Orc/War Orc/Healer Orc/slave war/war/shf combo by themselves and expect to come out victorious all the time I.E. "X is dead!". I ran off people MANY MANY times, but when you have ZERO lag and Call lightning is the only thing you get can get off before they hide in the city/cabal to heal. That's the breaks. You can only "rope-a- dope" with the powers you have so far. That answer is NO ONE is going to do it. There just not enough preps and chase skills only work so well.

2.2) Ref for Paladins can't finish without help outside of basic dedication skills: Tolgrumm timeline

Sun Aug 5 08:05:39 2012 at level 23 (21 hrs):
Tolgrumm has pledged to the Fortress of Light <PK: 1-2>

Thu Aug 9 07:36:54 2012 at level 27 (32 hrs):
Setfaith FAITH by Rayihn. <PK: 2-3>

*** Critical offensive boost here Dispel and AoE for hiders/groups.

Fri Aug 10 07:58:23 2012 at level 30 (37 hrs):
Tolgrumm advanced to level 30 <PK: 2-3>

Thu Aug 16 11:28:54 2012 at level 31 (54 hrs):
Inducted into FORTRESS by Clahier <PK: 4-3>

Mon Sep 10 11:45:53 2012 at level 40 (94 hrs):
Tolgrumm advanced to level 40 <PK: 6-10>

*** With only one virtue he was negative.

Mon Sep 17 08:42:39 2012 at level 43 (108 hrs):
Setfaith FORTITUDE by Baerinika. <PK: 7-10>

*** Offensive boost with Essence of Fortitude alone is awesome (not to mention Aristaeia (which he didn't seem to use much).
*** Defensive boost against axes, knifes, spears.

Mon Sep 24 10:06:48 2012 at level 44 (118 hrs):
Baerinika made Tolgrumm a Maran <PK: 7-11>

*** This is "historically" early, yes, but his kills where high.

Wed Oct 10 11:54:18 2012 at level 51 (147 hrs):
Tolgrumm advanced to level 51 <PK: 8-17>

Mon Oct 22 07:53:22 2012 at level 51 (164 hrs):
Tattooed by Baerinika <PK: 9-18>

Tue Oct 23 11:07:57 2012 at level 51 (169 hrs):
Baerinika set Tolgrumm's edge points to 56 from 66. <PK: 9-18>

***With two fairly nice virtues, Maran powers, AND a tattoo (I don't know if it lets you pounce from the moment you get it)he managed to get THREE kills in 70 hours!

Tue Oct 23 11:08:05 2012 at level 51 (169 hrs):
Baerinika has set edge pupil of baerinika for Tolgrumm. <PK: 9-18>

***More push for stronger power for the paladin who could only get a three kills in 70 hours.

Fri Jan 18 08:43:34 2013 at level 51 (301 hrs):
Tolgrumm has been granted by Baerinika <PK: 45-29>

Looks like all that paid off, because he is finally sealing kills. My thoughts to why? ... Pounce to finish them, and it took nearly 300 total hours!

Thu Feb 7 08:22:05 2013 at level 51 (348 hrs):
Setfaith RETRIBUTION by Baerinika. <PK: 49-33>

Fri Feb 22 06:33:49 2013 at level 51 (383 hrs):
Baerinika has set edge mantle of righteousness for Tolgrumm. <PK: 51-38>

Fri Feb 22 06:33:59 2013 at level 51 (383 hrs):
Baerinika set Tolgrumm's edge points to 0 from 87. <PK: 51-38>

Fri Feb 22 06:34:16 2013 at level 51 (383 hrs):
Baerinika set Tolgrumm's edge points to 77 from 0. <PK: 51-38>

Tue May 28 11:22:09 2013 at level 51 (676 hrs):
Tolgrumm moved to Hamsah Mu'tazz <PK: 98-59>

Wed May 29 05:33:09 2013 at level 51 (678 hrs):
Tolgrumm moved to Akan <PK: 98-59>

Tue Jun 4 10:27:06 2013 at level 51 (694 hrs):
Baerinika has set edge shining soul for Tolgrumm. <PK: 101-62>

Tue Jun 4 10:27:51 2013 at level 51 (694 hrs):
Baerinika set Tolgrumm's edge points to 68 from 78. <PK: 101-62>

Average Group Size Per Death 1.70
Average Group Size Per Kill 1.75 (got to bring A friend to net kills)

Is that not telling for the life of paladins, especially monks?

2.3) There is not listed do X to get maran or Y to get acolyte. We are left to the decisions of Immortal(s) that don't see how we play other than snapshot, a short snapshots.

2.4) I was given some Imm XP for one fight in which I went war/war vs. me and came out victorious. Was that not Maran worthy? Answer - Nope. Perhaps lets look at why I won? I won because the two guys didn't flee and lost like they had been, which as I said in cabal chat, "I got lucky." I had historically done same combo quite a few times and lost to bash/lash and or they fled with no kill seal for me. To be honest I felt I got the Imm xp more because I attributed it to luck (Whiysdan my god) than I did to actually winning.

2.6) I helped confessed/obvious new players learn the game and tried to be a good steward (yes, I said steward) of the game.

2.5) I very well could have held back from PVP and just hid away to avoid death until situations were able for me seal kills (bring a friend). How well were you aware of all the times that kills couldn't be sealed but it sure as hell ended the fight.

2.7) You tell me what the paladin squire should look like and why it takes over two 60-hour work weeks of time played(which is historically early) to earn being a maran. I would wager statistically that most get maran in their late 40s or just at Hero... Yet the Maran powers start WAY early. Why doesn't anyone get to use them early?

2.8) You tell me what the scribe should look like and why it takes over two 60-hour work weeks of time played (which is historically early) to earn being a acolyte.

Over all the system isn't right and doesn't come close to mirroring the promotion/access to skills + powers of other Cabals.

It never hurts to make precedence now and overrule historically wrong issues.

It's not an accident that all the cabals in the game look a little different. If Fort's scheme isn't to your liking, maybe something else is.

By design, the many different options in the game are different. The idea is that you can choose ones you like and other people can choose ones they like. The idea is not that every option should be normalized to what you like at the expense of everyone who prefers something else.

>It's not an accident that all the cabals in the game look a
>little different. If Fort's scheme isn't to your liking,
>maybe something else is.

>By design, the many different options in the game are
>different. The idea is that you can choose ones you like and
>other people can choose ones they like. The idea is not that
>every option should be normalized to what you like at the
>expense of everyone who prefers something else.

SO you say letting people have acolyte and maran powers before 120-150+ hours of game play is "at the expense of everyone who prefers something else?"

We can all accept different but handicapped powers until immortal promotion is the sole ownership of the Fortress. I dare say my choice is at the expense of myself and to the betterment of those that prefer something, dare I say anything, else.

*EDIT to add
**Edit didn't mean to put Outlander in team evil and take them out of contention.

Further more team evil has Empire/Scion/Scarab while team good has ONLY fortress. Tribunal/Outlander/Battle is not a for good or evil preference. They are Order Vs Anarcy or Magic vs Battle so they are out of contention. Fortress is the ONLY choice for someone that wants "good vs. evil". Evil gets to be, well evil. I will contend that my perception on choices maybe slightly biased but it isn't far from the truth if it is.

Huge support from allies.
Lots of gear handouts.
Generally high level of exploration (translates to edge points).
Generally higher imm-provements than all but perhaps Herald and scion leader.
Ability to attack in town (unlike empire) depending on role.
Generally support from many outlander since easiest place for them to kill people, outside of the tree, is outside of the fort, and it's easier to kill someone who can only flee into the wilds from the outer.

How you can say outlander is team evil is beyond me.

And to put this in context, I've had a couple of +200 hour scribes, one of whom was very aggressive in pk. It's not the massive handicap you are suggesting. Not to mention that I can grant you squires favour of the sun too.

Having played scion ranger (great powers... I think not), trib druid (trib powers useful?... I think not) etc., I think you are vastly overstating the fortress's problem.

>Huge support from allies.

Empire/Scion/Scarab have that too, especially Empire.

>Lots of gear handouts.

Cabals all do this, even scions.

>Generally high level of exploration (translates to edge
>points).

All have this, and do this.

>Generally higher imm-provements than all but perhaps Herald
>and scion leader.

Are you talking Imm exp ratio for edges? They get dished out across the board.

>Ability to attack in town (unlike empire) depending on role.
>Generally support from many outlander since easiest place for
>them to kill people, outside of the tree, is outside of the
>fort, and it's easier to kill someone who can only flee into
>the wilds from the outer.

Only empire is hesitant to attack in town and paladins aren't supposed and flat out cannot if they are Jaguars. The rest are serial wanted. Being a criminal and attacking town is in no way a "fortress perk".

>
>How you can say outlander is team evil is beyond me.

That was a tyypo that missed the proofread. They are out of contention as I stated Outlander is Order vs Anarchy not good vs. evil.

>
>And to put this in context, I've had a couple of +200 hour
>scribes, one of whom was very aggressive in pk. It's not the
>massive handicap you are suggesting. Not to mention that I
>can grant you squires favour of the sun too.

What was your class? That makes all a huge difference.

>
>Having played scion ranger (great powers... I think not), trib
>druid (trib powers useful?... I think not) etc., I think you
>are vastly overstating the fortress's problem.

The time it takes to be promoted is a problem and it is not overstating in the least.

>>Huge support from allies.
>
>Empire/Scion/Scarab have that too, especially Empire.
>

>>Lots of gear handouts.
>
>Cabals all do this, even scions.
>

Not to the same extent. Not even close.

>>Generally high level of exploration (translates to edge
>>points).
>
>All have this, and do this.
>
>>Generally higher imm-provements than all but perhaps Herald
>>and scion leader.
>
>Are you talking Imm exp ratio for edges? They get dished out
>across the board.
>
If you are in other cabals you need one of a few religions that doesn't naturally fit the cabal. Sure, there are exceptions, but if you look at the average 150hr plus?
>>Ability to attack in town (unlike empire) depending on role.
>>Generally support from many outlander since easiest place
>for
>>them to kill people, outside of the tree, is outside of the
>>fort, and it's easier to kill someone who can only flee into
>>the wilds from the outer.
>
>Only empire is hesitant to attack in town and paladins aren't
>supposed and flat out cannot if they are Jaguars. The rest
>are serial wanted. Being a criminal and attacking town is in
>no way a "fortress perk".
>

My point is that fort aren't restricted (Baer pally aside) and a big chunk of their enemies are. I've had to pass up a lot of kills because of this when playing empire.

>>
>>How you can say outlander is team evil is beyond me.
>
>That was a tyypo that missed the proofread. They are out of
>contention as I stated Outlander is Order vs Anarchy not good
>vs. evil.
>
>>
>>And to put this in context, I've had a couple of +200 hour
>>scribes, one of whom was very aggressive in pk. It's not
>the
>>massive handicap you are suggesting. Not to mention that I
>>can grant you squires favour of the sun too.
>
>What was your class? That makes all a huge difference.
>
Both were 2h desiccant paladins. One no virtues. One temperance. Also had a hope pally but don't remember much of that.
>>
>>Having played scion ranger (great powers... I think not),
>trib
>>druid (trib powers useful?... I think not) etc., I think you
>>are vastly overstating the fortress's problem.
>
>The time it takes to be promoted is a problem and it is not
>overstating in the least.

Ok. Maybe the difference is that I didn't feel the lack of full powers much because of all the other pluses. Would I have liked them? Hell yes. Are you unable to compete without them? Not normally. As cagocluse the Arial sword spec monk pallies were actually among my toughest foes when they used the right tactics.

>Not to the same extent. Not even close.

I'm going to semi-disagree with you here:

As Fort, it's very easy to get as much lower end gear as you want.

But when I play Scion, people try to hand me gear less often but the gear they do try to give me is phenomenal. Stuff like troll amulets, orb of the twilight lords, convegnos, etc.

Which is better: lots of jeweled broadswords and midnight dragon equivalent, or a couple pieces of unique gear? It depends on how much you die.

As a scion, I tend not to need gear and get given maybe one nice (not über) piece per char. As fort I've been given stacks. Maybe that's because things like helm of brilliance, prayer beads etc are things I view as nice that aren't that rare. Also request seems to mean that people who trade up hand stuff on. An evil will often just sac it to save the effort of taking gear back to the cabal when upgrading gear.

A better way of describing it is that my evil dudes get more nice stuff from fort chests than from their own cabal.

>By design, the many different options in the game are different. The idea is that you can choose ones you like and other people can choose ones they like. The idea is not that every option should be normalized to what you like at the expense of everyone who prefers something else.<

I totally agree with this. However, in practice, this doesn't play out at all. It's obvious that certain types of characters are getting more "love" than others. And this has probably been true for YEARS (even back in the "salad" days us vets harp on).

However, in the past, you had a lot more options to direct your character. Didn't like Fortress goodies? Well you had 3 evil only cabals. Hrmmm...scratch that, Scarab is gone, but Empire is back and Outlander lets in evils! Yay! Oh wait, now Empire is in the ####ter and Tribunal have made it so no evils can join without hours and hours of hoop jumping....but Scarab is back? Oh wait, Scions in the ####ter again.

Add that to the fact that most "evil asshole roles" have been phased out of the game due to the player sportmanship over-correction (and the strong stance against those characters by most active IMMs), and honestly, you can't do whatever you want re: playing CF anymore.

You can say you can roll a chaotic evil transmuter who just wants to see everyone die (and not give a #### about edge points, immortals, cabals) but in practice, that character can't exist on CF anymore.

Basically, if I am introducing a new character to CF, I'm just telling him/her to roll Fort Baer/Rayihn followers for his first 5 characters because that's what CF is now.

>>By design, the many different options in the game are
>different. The idea is that you can choose ones you like and
>other people can choose ones they like. The idea is not that
>every option should be normalized to what you like at the
>expense of everyone who prefers something else.<
>
>I totally agree with this. However, in practice, this doesn't
>play out at all. It's obvious that certain types of
>characters are getting more "love" than others. And this has
>probably been true for YEARS (even back in the "salad" days us
>vets harp on).

I don't agree this was ever true, but I definitely don't agree it's true now.

Name two Fort characters in the last year to get a significant reward. I can't. Fort did have one quest form go out, but so did a few other cabals.

>Add that to the fact that most "evil asshole roles" have been
>phased out of the game due to the player sportmanship
>over-correction (and the strong stance against those
>characters by most active IMMs), and honestly, you can't do
>whatever you want re: playing CF anymore.
>
>You can say you can roll a chaotic evil transmuter who just
>wants to see everyone die (and not give a #### about edge
>points, immortals, cabals) but in practice, that character
>can't exist on CF anymore.

You and I have had this discussion before and I still don't agree.

About the Fort chars, a couple got things, nothing earth shaking.

Trenloch got an extra legacy, so did Yuolod. Yuolod was maraned for longevity/effort I'm assuming (though he did become Marshall and Immort so I also imagine his strengh was his RP?).

Sun Dec 30 12:37:54 2012 at level 24 (41 hrs):
Inducted into FORTRESS by Oshui <PK: 1-0>

Thu Jan 17 10:39:34 2013 at level 30 (71 hrs):
Yuolud advanced to level 30 <PK: 5-1>

Sun Jun 2 12:02:38 2013 at level 40 (119 hrs):
Yuolud advanced to level 40 <PK: 5-3>

Sun Jun 2 13:04:41 2013 at level 40 (120 hrs):
Yuolud has specialized in sword <PK: 5-3>

Tue Jul 23 09:27:57 2013 at level 41 (173 hrs):
Baerinika made Yuolud a Maran <PK: 8-7>

You already mentioned Dwybean who had what seems like a pretty kick-ass quest form but perhaps it's disqualified...

You've mentioned in the past you (as IMMs) like players to play a certain style. If I reference that by saying certain players always get love from IMMs, I don't see how you don't think that is true or true now (especially with lower player numbers and the shrinking of the CF community in general). There is also a well-documented history of immortals being more receptive to people they know OOC (with certain mud-slinging IMMs of CF past being some of the worst practicioners of this). I don't see why sticking your head in the collective sand is addressing this problem.

Was that you wouldn't even attempt retrievals when I was (probably) online. There was one occasion when you did so and I happened to be cursed in a far off area for exactly 1 tick longer than you took to retrieve, after having been logged in for around an hour or so. you then worded from me and teleported away once I caught up. Maybe you mixed it up more with others but I didn't see it.

Also, Fortress is a unified front against evils. Empire is an enemy of scion, outlander and usually battle, who are an enemy of scion, who is an enemy of outlander, etc etc. Empire powers are pretty moderate for anyone who's not a council member, scion inducts are incredibly difficult, etc.

Just my opinion

I wasn't in your range for that long.

Once when I walked into the Imperial Palace unprepared for an Orc fight and was bashed to death quite quickly, once in that cluster-f*(k-fight in the nightwalker ruins, and once in the village.

Fighting my way into the village to get the orb back with you hiding in ambush is guts all together.

With this character alone here is my experience with the GSV. Each time I came there I was plagued for just being their (didn't even get to tremblefist.) Spine breakered by the door guards that alert you that I am there so you can quaff back and mount defense easily, and then tremblefist with his plague/poison/dispel/blind/illuminate. I also contacted Yellow fever and mononucleosis. GSV is a defensive wet dream compared to everywhere else.

So fighting tremblefist with you on and already being elf so you get free autoattack on me, and also you having 3+ levels on me is stacking it VERY high in your favor.

Also might I add that after I did get the orb and was leaving I saw you popped in so I gave you the fair gamer fight. Your willbreaker dispels my crusade/bless/frenzy buffs and made it so I couldn't intensify or rebuff for 15+ hours. Also I was down to less than 100 mana with 20% health. What would you have done if you were in my situation? Welcome to the world of a paladin where people get away and you don't get the "X is dead". Also I didn't teleport I Worded again (to the same area) and ran into silverwood/Loch Grynmear to heal wait off willbreaker.

Also: Gate guards don't CB, only tremblefist does that. Gate guards only yell. Didn't realise you hadn't ported, I typed where, moved a few rooms typed where again and assumed a teleport. I'm not saying it wasn't the right thing to do or whatever but my only experience of you stepping up to fight me ended up in you wording almost right away.

Cluster#### in the ruins was great fun. I didn't realise you'd broken my mainhand wield and was fighting with one less weapon than I thought for nearly the whole fight. Turns out I was unarmed when what was left of your group finally took me down. Also are you sure that was me in the palace because I don't remember that at all?

Anyway. Paladins have a ton of advantages. They may not be able to seal kills well but they can sure as hell put out a favourable damage done/damage taken ratio. Sucks to lose a player I really don't think fortress paladins have a tougher life than most evils. It's just that fortress dominance is finally waning for the first time in two years. I'm really look forward to a paladin who will step up and actually face the growing adversity, and I'm sure the imms are too.

You all look alike to me :p. None of deaths where the reason for leaving. It was a growing disenfranchise of the game as a whole

. I was always willing to scrap and it appears that it causes a detrimental down fall for characters. I enjoyed the initial banter we had before you could touch me and i tried to be reaspectful or rank power differences and I loved you bringing in euchess for me to run off because I was bored to tears healing the watcher.

I think you bring up a lot of good points. Since Fort promotions are tied to an IMM, there is a lot of subjectivity. For example, my character prior to Tolgrumm didn't get Maran until:

Fri Feb 3 07:53:58 2012 at level 51 (237 hrs):
Baerinika made Shaendath a Maran <PK: 12-28>

Objectively, that's a lot more hours and more kills, though a lower ratio and PK/hr with a hiding class with lag options. Of course, I put in easily 10x the RP effort with Tolgrumm, was religious, and there were a lot more Maran around when I played Shaendath. It would be naive to say that following Baerinika wasn't a factor, but there were a lot of other factors as well.

I'd be curious to hear what the downward tweaks would be to Fortress powers if people automatically became Acolytes/Maran, say, after 50 - 75 hours in the cabal. I probably wouldn't favor that change, because I tend to play long-lived characters, but others might have disagreement.

As an aside, I think you're reading things into Tolgrumm's timeline that aren't (necessarily) true.

* Pounce was definitely nice. That being said, if we define it "playing a part" of a fight as me pouncing within 150 lines of the killing blow, it only played a part in about 10% of my killing blows.

* Eyes of flame and phoenix brand were significant advantages, no doubt. Zeal and pupil of Baerinika I have a harder time measuring.

* The real uptick in my kills (subjectively) was due to evil finally getting some players and me getting more comfortable with the class. For a long time I'd sit online with absolutely no one to hunt, but that gave me tons of explore time.

Just some thoughts -- I hope you consider returning at some point, because you sure seem like an asset to the game.

I remember thinking you really should have got MARAN before you did.

We had some good times, like getting perma-lagged by Eleagra in Arkham.

Eh, depends. I had some good moments and some atrocious moments. There were at least three occasions where my screwups (the really dumb kind you make when you haven't played in six years) directly led to Vallinane's death, and I was generally inept at fighting. When I got Maran with Shaendath, I remember thinking it was as much for pity as it was longevity.

I was using you as an example that Paladins (especially monks) are not the kill sealers and PKH dominate that allow for them to become marans. You didn't come in to your own at all until you were well into two virtues, a tattoo, and edges and maran, and then you got a third virtues. From my experience with Toktok I didn't get competitive at hero until I had my second virtue and the role contest wins to help.

I don't think you are calculating pounce as I envision it. It may not have been the pounce in the last round kill but it aided you and that is how I envisioned it. Any time you got an auto chase it helped. If they had 90% health or 2% it still helped. If you were for example intensified and someone fled right away and you pounced and got two or three more rounds on them and then finished them while they were stuck in item fumble lag (quaff potion while fighting) It helped you seal a kill.

I just needed some stats of a successful Paladin and thank you after the fact to use it.

No problem -- I didn't take it as an attack at all. I just wanted to give a few clarifications and opinions.

FYI, I expanded my grep to 1000 lines between pounce and killing blow, and only got 16 KBs, with 3 being pounces against people other than the one I killed.

n/t

That was a whole lot of IMM love given to a single character.

When so much of a character's ceiling is determined by Imm love and all its subjectivity and variance; it's a recipe for disaster. Setting a precedent like Tolgrumm will only result in a whole lot of disappointed and disgruntled players who do not receive similar rewards.

Maran for <PK: 7-11>?? Were those 7 kills against uber elite veteran borderline professionally skilled midbie necromancers or something?

Meh. I still don't understand the hate directed at RayBaer/Daev but I totally understand the perceived favouritism that some players have/had.

I have no vested interest in this particular topic but I do not like seeing good, long-term players leave the game (*). Thus I propose the following compromise; you can choose upon induction as to whether you want to go for full Maran via a Scribe, or you can opt to go for partial Maran instantly.

* when I get sick of ESO I still want there to be a playerbase here as my eternal fallback game of choice

How about we all stop expecting things to work a certain way, and let the owner of the Fortress explain her reasoning for things being the way they are now.

And the tradition of it. I know I am no Shokai, but I like the system he set up and want to pay homage to it. I like that Fort is unique about the way it handles promotions. I think it enhances the game that there's a cabal for achievers, for the people who want to know that the reward is earned and not just for spending 150 hours idling in their guild. I like the way Scion gives powers immediately but has a unique cap. I like the way Empire is both manual promotion but some automatic and easier in general than Fortress. Ditto Trib. I like that Nexus has its own niche. You'll note that there are people on this thread who like the way Fort is. Not everyone, I know that it is exceedingly difficult to make everyone happy, but I believe that Fort's niche is where it should be based on the people who have come forward to say they like it as is. Those who like a more automated system have other cabal options. All in all, I love the Fort, I think it's an awesome place to be and an experience that fosters and encourages RP over grind.

This is not to say that I or the system are perfect. I would never try to claim that. It's a bit like that slightly off kilter and splintered dresser your grandpa made you. Imperfect and prone to stab you or shred your favorite shirt, but you cherish it and wouldn't have it any other way.

As for Orenshil in particular, I was impressed some moments (see his reference to getting immxp for a couple of 'lucky' kills) and less so others (sending up OOC prays berating Whiys for ignoring him). I personally set his Maran bar a little higher than average because I felt he was given special treatment as a Squire with no evil pks. There's also a fine balance between quality 'mixing it up' and seeming to forget that you have the flee command, and sometimes Orenshil struck me as the latter. There isn't anything wrong with that precisely but I believe that other Fort look at those promoted to Maran as leaders in general and I tend to notice that those who are like that often lead others to the same fate and that seems to be less fun for the cabal. So those don't count for Maran pts in the book, if that makes sense.