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DaevrynThu 11-Mar-10 06:40 PM
Member since 13th Feb 2007
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#2283, "Tweak(s): Air Shifters etc."


          

Coming in the next reboot or so:

- You may or may not already be aware that characters who have very recently (realtime) died can't be targetted by Bind Nightgaunt, a protection that typically extends just a couple ticks past the ghost period. Spotting characters from the skies above Thera, flyto, and glideto have essentially gained an identical restriction -- recently dead characters won't be seen from above and can't be flown to.

- Shifted characters that have afflictions that cause them shifting trauma will experience a very small (a fraction of a combat round) additional delay following flyto, swimto, and glideto.

Generally speaking, I'm trying to find solutions to the cases where air forms feel too unfair/unfun to deal with (e.g., air shifter stalking you as you're regearing as a ghost and pouncing on you as soon as you unghost) without doing too much to impact their power and playability in the general case. We'll give this a try and if it works, great; if it's too much or not enough, I'll revisit it.

  

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LightmageThu 15-Apr-10 08:17 PM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#2296, "Thats funny.."
In response to Reply #0


          

I like the ghost change idea.

Flyto lag?.....Maybe would work to prevent newbie multi-killing...Has it really been abused lately?

Swimto lag? You got to be kidding right? Late April fools?

I'd really recommend you trying a water shifter with the current forms. Not talking out of my ass here. I heroed and played every new water major form except for two. If anything you should remove the lag that was added to them previously (swimto, murder lag)

Have not played for a while now but feeling that itch.

Later.

Hope is the worst of evils, for it prolongs the torment of man.

  

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KlaakFri 12-Mar-10 10:24 AM
Member since 04th Mar 2003
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#2284, "RE: Tweak(s): Air Shifters etc."
In response to Reply #0


          

I don't have any problems with the not seeing the recently dead, but the additional flyto delay when maladicted seems too much. Even when not maladicted, someone who knows how to do precision running (i.e. not running into walls and getting the "Alas you cannot go that way," message) can avoid flyto/peck a good 20 times in a row. I've chased Knacnar from the weald after he raided the island all the way to the village and only landed a single peck the entire time. I was boneshattered at the time because Nurok stepped in the way at the very start of the chase. With even the tiniest amount of additional delay in flyto, it will be completely impossible to catch anyone while maladicted. That means dagger, mace, spear, polearm (slice), axe, whip/flail, and hand specs can all escape with ease after doing just one command when the fight begins, and then running. Assassins (nerve and axe kick), orcs, anti-paladins, and thug thieves can also do the same thing. Mages and priests can already escape via recall/teleport. Other types of thieves can just hide unless in wilderness or facing an owl at night (yeah, bat can see them too, but let's face it, vampire bat is not exactly a fearful form either, and only has two-round combat initiation ability.), rangers can camo unless in civilized terrain. Necromancers generally don't HAVE to escape unless they have no army. I don't remember if bard songs cause shifting trauma or not, but in most cases, bards have little to fear from air forms unless the shifter knows how to get their save vs mental really high, which, while doable, is not an easy thing to accomplish.

The low delay on flyto is the only thing that enables air shifters to land any kills at all, and even as it has been, there's enough of a delay for people to escape if they know what they're doing. Engaging in a chase like the one I just mentioned is incredibly draining to an air shifter's movement, and most of the time, it can only last for a very short time. The only reason I was able to chase Knacnar as far as I did was because I had lots of extra movement from explore xp, form bonus, was using spirit of the thunderhawk, and had full movement when I began the attack. I've lost quite a few kills due to chases like this against more opponents than just Knacnar.

I know that people complain A LOT about air shifters, but I stand by the same response I've given many times. They're not an "I win" button like so many people make them out to be. I used to see them that way too. Then I tried to play one for the first time and was astounded at how easily some people were able to avoid me, and other people able to kill me outright. Eventually I learned all the things people were doing to avoid me or just plain kill me. The next time I played a warrior, someone with falcon/tiger thought he had an "I win" button and came after me. I proceeded to tear him up using the lessons I had learned as an air shifter myself. I never had to deal with that particular air shifter again.

I think a much better way to deal with air/shifter griefing than increasing flyto delay (even conditionally) is to get the wiki back up so that someone (possibly even me) can write up a FAQ about dealing with air shifters. I've played a fair number of them now, but I also play a fair number of other characters. No matter what it is I'm playing, I never ever fear that I'm going to die to any type of air shifter because I make sure that I prepare for them properly. Even ragers have things they can do to ensure they either kill or drive off air shifters, or at the very least avoid them.

I will grant that on occasion there are a few air shifters who are particularly skilled players who know how to counter anti-air tactics (high saves, high hp, stat bonus gear, just the right action at just the right time, etc...). Those people SHOULD be able to kill people with their forms, since they've been through the fire already (probably from both sides), have learned from their mistakes, and have come out the other side stronger than ever. They've earned their stripes.

By nerfing flyto, the effect will be less attacks at opportune times (opportune for the groundling), and more attaks at times when the victim is vulnerable (i.e. waiting until someone is sleeping, then flyto/shift offense/rake, trample, etc...). Catching people off-guard will become the preferred tactic of air/offense shifters, and we'll see much fewer fights along the lines of up-in-your-face-when-your-prepared-and-stand-a-fighting-chance. The air/offense shifter will start thinking, "Ok, I know that if they start to run, flyto is guaranteed to fail in catching them now, so if I want to win, I'll have to make sure they die before they ever get a chance to run. I'll wait in the sky until I see that they're completely unprepared, then I'll swoop in and own their face off before they even know what hit them." Personally, I find that counter-productive to the end you're hoping to achieve. I would much rather face air shifters who are confident in using flyto as a kill tactic than an air shifter who thinks the only way to kill me is to wait until I'm sleeping or engaged in a fight already.

Klaak

Great spirits have always met violent opposition from mediocre minds.
-Einstein

  

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DaevrynFri 12-Mar-10 06:06 PM
Member since 13th Feb 2007
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#2285, "I'll be honest:"
In response to Reply #1


          

I would care more about your opinion if you weren't one of the people who had spam-killed people with air shifters just as they unghosted. (Or if there hadn't been that other incident this week.)

As far as precision running goes, you're missing something huge there which leads me to believe you've never seriously played Battle or any other character that couldn't just quaff the problem away.

If you don't think air shifters are good post-changes, don't play them anymore.

  

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HumbertFri 12-Mar-10 09:14 PM
Member since 13th Jun 2009
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#2286, "To clarify"
In response to Reply #1


          

What Daev said below about precision running - the trick to making a rager unable to escape by fleeing is to catch them in rough terrain. Knacnar could evade you because Weald has civilised road and Ashes main road is civilised road type too. Minimum movement lag. See if the same rager can run from Akan to Voralian while you spam flyto-peck.

  

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