I postred this before on Zulghs christmas thingie a while back, thought I would try again since no one talked about it on officials.

Improvement to make Armor Class a viable stat.



1. The first step would be to remove the AC gains from dex as this doesn't make sense. Armor class should come from armor, not quickness. Dodge comes from dex. All races would start with +50 AC.



2. Second step is to make every -25 AC below 0 AC 1.25% damage reduction. More accurately, it would be 1AC=0.05% damage reduction. This would not be overpowered since no one would be above 0 AC without armor anyhow. Example is, with -250 AC to bash, bashing attacks would be reduced by 12.5%.



3. This would not be overpowered because there are very few items that even go above -15 AC and VERY few, if any, items with better than -25 AC. With there being a possible 17 slots to wear armor, then the most possible if someone wore a full set of -25 AC armor would be -375 AC before spells. That would be a total of 18.75% damage reduction. That much is with total gearing for AC, though I doubt there are enough -25 AC armor to get that high.



4. With this in mind, a gnome invoker might decide to forgo some +40 HP armor for -25AC to bash armor. It would make for more tactical decisions on what armor you wear and actually make armor class a useful thing in the CF world.

The major issues with this are, in my opinion:

1) Armor isn't currently rated for protective value. AC is generally just a reflection of level, and most area authors haven't spent a lot of time on it. We'd need to reconsider this (and re-evaluate several thousand objects) for the system to be internally logical. This currently bothers me about Gates of the Forge (although that's a more complex issue), but I'd be more concerned if it impacted every player.

2) As proposed, the system would more or less amount to "Give everyone on the MUD X% permanent damage resistance." Most heroes would pick up 5-10% resistance without changing any of their gearing habits. We'd also have to reconsider the impact of a number of spells (Carapace, Barrier, etc.) which swing AC a large amount.

With this in mind, a gnome invoker might decide to forgo some +40 HP armor for -25AC to bash armor.

3) Just to illustrate why I don't think this would change how people gear.... it only makes sense to give up 40 hp for -25AC (1.25% resistance) if you have more than 3,160 hit points. (If you have 3,160 hit points, taking 98.75% damage is equally as good as having 3,200 hit points. In both cases, the attacker must deal 3,200 hp.) This is true even accounting for other multiplicative resistances. And it ignores the fact that picked the -AC item would only deter physical damage, and not mental, holy, fire, etc., and also that the +40 hp gear probably has some AC of its own.

In conclusion, while we have ideas for making armor (and armor class) more meaningful down the road, doing it right is a much larger project than this lets on.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Wanted to put my thoughts out though, incase at some point they could be useful. I made mention that in the empowerment idea that I didn't think this was as important or likely anywhere close to as easy. Thanks.

Yes I agree, ac resistance would have to be something like giant resist where its possible to get around it as you can with giants today.

Still from circle muds they have a nice algorithm to give standard values to ac and so on for mobiles based on level... This could be extended to go against class aswell and then tweek it for balance. When it comes to ac and protection levels I don't think the values should give possibility to get massive damage reduction... A small cap of 5% or maby as high as 10% at hero levels would be nice. Maby even let it count as magic resistance work for dark elves in ad&d where the cap is adjusted based on your level. I would even go as far as saying dam redux cap could work close to how those nice path finding boots where it can be higher at lower levels and lower at higher levels so you will get the possibility to actually get cool fights at low ranks aswell as hero ranks.

Area creators should rather adjust mods up and down from standard from level instead of having to rethink every mob they create. It would then be far easier to do the change, since it would only be some of the mobs who will need tweeking instead of all. And as far as tweeking ranking areas this can be done as things go... You will see if players manage or not. And you will allso see some mages able to actually work a little on their own at low level. Today it can be hard getting a mage post lvl 20 in some cases, because most warriortypes tend to solorank to lvl 25 or so to get their basic skills a tad up.

The reason I like to get high level is the fact you get fights that last more than one or two rounds so you get the chance to actually use some tachtics.

This is just a change that would be really fun to see in general and I hope some of this gives some cool ideas for you aswell. Not only me hehe :D

What you are talking about is already there. Each AC: Slash, Pierce, Blunt, and Magic would only put some resistance to that specific kind of attack. Using a firey sword on a felar would still hurt the hell of out of the felar. But, in any case, it's not really important since as Nepenthe said, it would be far too much work for the rewards. I am surprised people are focusing on this and not my empowerment idea. The empowerment idea I thought was really more beneficial to the CF community and much easier to implement, but no one really seems interested in it.

But I feel it's slightly less likely than Hell reopening tomorrow.

>In conclusion, while we have ideas for making armor (and armor
>class) more meaningful down the road, doing it right is a much
>larger project than this lets on.

No offense, Valg, but I'd encourage you to think pretty strongly about whether it should change at all. Or, perhaps, just be removed.

This strikes me as one of those "change it for the sake of change" and/or "change it for the sake of realism" type things.

In D&D AC was meaningful -- but, other than two specific epic items (gaunts of ogre power, girdle of giant strength), they didn't - by and large - affect your stats, health, damage, etc. The way gear works, and why people choose it, are just plain fundamentally different in CF. Same deal with parry/dodge/distance, etc -- in D&D that type of thing figured into a single cohesive AC system where wearing plate protected you to some extent.. wearing cloth protected you to a lesser extent, and being super-ninja-quick and dodging like a mad monkey protected you to some extent.

In the code that CF was based on, AC was stuck in. It was, marginally, meaningful. It rapidly became meaningless. But AC is something that RPGers semi-expect to see, based on the culture and history. In some ways, having it exist in a meaningless fashion is confusing: my first character (back when J was level 53, and there were daily echos from Saher and Trouble's bears) geared for AC. Ugh. Don't ask.

CF just plain doesn't have the cohesion to factor this in. Not only would all of the items have to be rebalanced, and all of the AC affecting spells -- but the entire concept of parry/dodge/shieldblock/distance/spin/flourentine would have to be reexamined. Things have been pretty carefully balanced in terms of damage avoidance + damage resistance. Adding additional avoidance or resistance, across the board as a fundamental change like AC, would require a thorough reevaluation of the entire combat system. I'm not saying it can't be done... but, uh, why? It'd be a different game.

To be completely honest, I'd be a lot happier seeing AC values stripped off of items, AC removed from the equations it exists in, and gates of the forge changed such that if you're wearing gear in every torso/limb slot and a shield it gives its maximum reduction, and reduce that max reduction based on slots that aren't worn.

I really think that it _COULD_ be done. But the rebalancing of gear, skills, physical attacks vs magic attacks vs magic attacks that cause physical damage would be nightmarish. Equally, you'd start seeing some rediculous charecter builds for a while as people tried to exploit the system and you kept circling behind closing holes (max out dex, defensive skills, and STILL gear in all plate with no damage or saves and such just to be an uber-dillo but still do damge, etc).

And, really, just because it _COULD_ be done... should it? We all love the CF gear/combat system. If we have concerns it's about growth pains (every area writer wants one uber-gear piece in his area... add enough areas, and there are a stupid amount of uber-gear pieces, etc). I'd think that the effort involved would be significantly higher than revamping a class, or adding a class, or writing another Silent Tower. I think the end return would be different than what we have. Maybe better, maybe worse. But worth it? Eh. I dunno.

>To be completely honest, I'd be a lot happier seeing AC values
>stripped off of items, AC removed from the equations it exists
>in, and gates of the forge changed such that if you're wearing
>gear in every torso/limb slot and a shield it gives its
>maximum reduction, and reduce that max reduction based on
>slots that aren't worn.

Revised:

I suspect that it's very difficult if not impossible to reach the gates of the forge max reduction right now. So. Take the max reduction, and drop it by two points or so. Take the NEW max reduction, and set that as the reduction value for gear in every "armor" slot. Drop this value by two points for every piece missing :p

Covering every armor slot could be done in Galadon for about 200 copper. Basing Gates of the Forge on something as trivial as that would be pointless.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Yeah, and I know it. Which is why I suggested reducing it's max utility. That was the _only_ thing that truly affects real combat that is based off AC. The whole sub-point was "ditch AC entirely, fix Gates such that it doesn't need it".

Make gates rock if you're wearing full armor and a shield (well, make it as good as it is practical to attain now). Make it less good with just full armor. Make it increasingly less good as you move towards nekkid. Make it ratio'd off gear level vs your level in all slots.

Lots of options on how to have the skill do its intended job with its intended difficulty and utility without relying on something old, dumb and broken.

But the whole Gates thing is just one tiny thing thrown out off to the side of the main post. One subpoint of the only thing you'd have to think about and fix if you just scrapped AC entirely. The revision was to account for the fact that it's easier to cover ever slot than it is to break X number of thousands of AC.

And, honestly, so what? Make Gates a 10% dam redux if you're fully geared.

That's no big deal. Just because it _IS_ a sliding scale doesn't mean it has to be.

I have no idea what the range is now, but if I had to guess I'd say probably 0-15%, with it being damn hard to get above 11. Sooo. Make it a "pick this legacy to get 10%" and be done with it :p

You're right that implementing a bad system would be worse than doing nothing. I admitted straight away that it would be a large project.

But saying we should avoid large projects because we might do them wrong is a cop-out.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>You're right that implementing a bad system would be worse
>than doing nothing. I admitted straight away that it would be
>a large project.
>
>But saying we should avoid large projects because we might do
>them wrong is a cop-out.
>

Uh. So, I didn't even mean to imply that you'd "do them wrong". Really. I have all the faith in the world in some of the immstaff that would certainly be involved in this (yourself included). The random off the cuff "nightmarish" things I threw out there would be very clearly analyzed by people that are more current on this #### than I am. I believe that if it were undertaken, that it would be done right.

My whole point is... why? Jebus, why? Why fix something that ain't broke? We have a hugely intricate detailed combat system that has probably thousands of hours of balancing and tweaking to give realism and fun to the concepts of avoid/absorb/physical/magic/etc.

Gear, in CF, is about the stat modifiers.

AC... armor class.. is used by other games AS that system. We _HAVE_ one. It's a _GOOD_ one. It's constnatly updated.

Why invest that much in something that isn't broken?

Gear, in CF, is about the stat modifiers.

AC... armor class.. is used by other games AS that system. We _HAVE_ one. It's a _GOOD_ one. It's constnatly updated.

Why invest that much in something that isn't broken?

Largely because a common complaint from area writers is that there's only so much you can do with gear with that. Once the Skull Ring and the Garnet Ring exist, there's not much point making more +2 damroll rings-- every character can grab one of the two from a centralized area with low risk.

It's why we continually try to add new dimensions to objects (movement regeneration, morale, mental saves, etc.) as time goes by-- it gives new options to players. Tired of getting whipped on by bards? Pile on the mental save stuff (*) and laugh at them. Just look out for that Rager berserker warrior.

Armor being more than a stats vehicle would open up those kinds of avenues. I'd argue that our AC system is broken (**), you're just used to it. And that's not an argument against some day tweaking or redoing it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

(*) To be fair, we need to make more changes on this front, introducing more high-end items that do this, before this is overly feasible. But it's possible in principle, whereas previously it wasn't even that.

(**): CF ripoffs tend to try to emphasize this fact often enough.

>(*) To be fair, we need to make more changes on this front,
>introducing more high-end items that do this, before this is
>overly feasible. But it's possible in principle, whereas
>previously it wasn't even that.
>
>(**): CF ripoffs tend to try to emphasize this fact often
>enough.


** (two stars first. There are two, it must be more important!). I guess I'd agree. AC is busted. But the system has migrated to the point that the initial "implementation" is obsolete. Sooo.... yank it. It's a vestigal 6th finger. ####it, cut it off. People can't call it "broken" if it doesn't exist. And, in practice if not in name, it doesn't exist.

* Good point. More variety is a good thing. Introducing true armor as a consideration certainly adds another dimension. I think we both agree on the magnitude of the project. I guess my whole deal is run a virtual ROI on the project, and on the other projects that would use the immstaff time. Perhaps FOI is a better TLA (Funstick on Investment)

*** (three stars. For the hell of it) Totally divergent topic, but somewhat related because of gear. As CF has matured the ratio of players/roomcount has continually decreased. Are you absolutely certain this is a good thing? I guess same deal with players/objectcount.

Why NOT remove skull/garnet rings? Add a +1 dam -5 mental, + 1 dam -5 spell, +1 dam + 10 hp, and add a +2 dam. Make all 5 equivalently hard/easy to get, and make all 5 be from different areas. Give people more flexibility, encourage more exploration.

Hell. Why not remove aldevari? Why does the room count have to grow grotesquely in comparison to the playerbase? Don't get me wrong.. I think aldevari is a great noob area. I think it's well written. But there is something to be said for having TOO many options.

Anyone that has played long enough can remember the days where it didn't really matter which area you went to, you'd always find 1-10 other people in it. These days.. it can take you 3 hours to check all the spots that an enemy group could be levelling (by which point, if they're good, they'd have levelled out of your range!).

It could be delusion "golden day" memories, but I'd guess that ten years ago we averaged 60-110 during evening hours. I'd also guess that our room count has more than doubled (perhaps more than tripled), while the playerbase has remained the same. That makes it a different game... today you REALLY COULD level from 1-51 without ever seeing more than 2 other players in the same area. Is that REALLY a good thing? Does all RP/PK _require_ raiding/defending/camping the eastern road? Bleh.

Well I can't say I agree with most of what you say here.

First of all if you remove AC all together lowbie mages will be more or less fooder until they get their stuff at high rank, making warriors even more popular than they are today.

AC goes against way more things than a sword dropping on your head, and parts of the AC system works today (maby not as good as it could but it works), luckilly (esp at low ranks).

I don't want to take the imms words out of their mouths but this is bout PK and RP mud, and to be able to do any RP sometimes you need time to get it going. PK is fun aswell, but its anoying if you have no possibilities to find an obscure place to rank which might not be optimal but semi safe. You know not all play all rank pk able characters. Some just need to get those ranks before they can do anything.

If you have problems finding PK in other spots than eastern or in raid you really have to revise your playstyle, seriously. I have no problems finding potential PK's in my path. I even think the hunt is just as fun, and some times even better than the PK itself, remove those aspects you find today and I think it will be boring to play CF for many of the current players.

I think the immstaff is doing a great job now, and I even think the original suggestion where this thread started is good, and if nothing more than a good input for the brainstorming the imms do around these issues its more or less perfect. So instead of throwing flames and showing obvious anger you can instead skip in and make some "outrageous" ideas which the imms can get into their brainstorming pool to be able to make a system that is even cooler and better than the current suggestion. If nothing else, maby give us all a good laugh, I appreciate that way more than a series of flames on the board.

I hardly think 10% dam redux would pose a problem, if anything you will get longer, more interesting fights and longer adrenaline surges to cope with.

If you think the room count is what makes playerbase drop, I think youre wrong. First of all its summer, and MMORPG games finally started to get interfaces that work and players, esp new ones play these. But I think CF will be a strong mud as long as my generation lives, it has something you will never see in a MMORPG until we find another userinterface then joystick, mouse or keyboard. The features are to complicated to make a good interaction design around it to draw users to a MMORPG which is as complicated as CF. And until they do I hardly believe I will get addicted to one. Yes I tried, but I find it hard to chew in those RP breaks to get answers to your home work and other stuff that comes in and just ruins the entire feel that can exist in a session.

When the last cabals died and was redone the mud had a little setback, since many of those cabal was loved by the old players, but if you don't see the immstaff working their asses off to create a new just as good alternative for the current age in the mud you should sit back and try sense what is going on. Changes as big as was initiated about a year ago is not done in a month or two, its huge projects which can really tear a mud appart if not done correctly and using a big portion of patience in the process.

I have a feeling that by xmas you will see some of the old players starting to sniff at the mud again. And to be honest I think its good for CF to have a little down period. Imms get more time to work on those details which obviously make this mud stand out compared to other muds out there.

So. I suggest your re-read some posts. I really don't think there was a single note of anger, anywhere. Lots of wild ideas, but no flames and no anger. Now.. the subject of this post, on the other hand, is flame-bait ;)

>First of all if you remove AC all together lowbie mages will
>be more or less fooder until they get their stuff at high
>rank, making warriors even more popular than they are today.

This is actually a good point. It's easily remedied (modify the armor spell to give you a 20% chance of being "missed" by all attacks from a level 20 or below mob, rather than being -20 ac.

>I think the immstaff is doing a great job now,

Me too. And I said it a couple times in each of my posts.

>So instead of throwing flames and showing obvious
>anger

Really, man. Reading comprehension.

>If you think the room count is what makes playerbase drop,

In my post I said, and I quote "I think the playerbase is about the same". The DIFFERENCE is if you divide player base by total number of rooms the RATIO is lower.

Ugh first of all, sorry about being slow to answer, but work prohibits CF connection.

I did read, and the general feel was in between line blame and anger. The playerbase has dropped. I am pretty sure of that, just see how many is online at any given time. I do think this will change within the next 6 months. And I just can't say I have a prob with all the new zones and so on. Its hardly many ranking zones that comes in, but its some cool new zones to explore and get away from copyrights and so on.

Your idea about the armour spell is cool but today ac at pre 20 can mean way more than 20% miss. I just hope the imms are soaking up ideas for what is going to happen... I really look forward seeing what happens to the current AC system in the end.

Oh and don't worry I won't flame I kinda hate to do it myself, allways regrets it when I do... I've seen way to many threads being destroyed and overlooked by imms because of flaming wars.

I like the idea of making what AC does for you more obvious, but that's true of saves as well.

What I don't like is the idea of giving anyone with the mind to gear for AC a 25% damage reduction. I don't think it'd be the roughest task for you to figure out ways to get -500AC if that's what you wanted, at least as things are now. I think that that right now AC probably does more than you think it is. I also think it's one of those little things where you're not going to get exact formulae on, because then people start freaking out about numbers and forgetting about gameplay. It may not do what you believe in theory it does, but I do believe it helps more than people credit it. And no, it's not that you're going to see "misses" from level 60 mobs that you're hitting at hero because of your AC, either.

It worked very well at the mud I played before CF, if you were naked you took tremendous amounts of damage, while if in full plated armor you took less damage, makes sense, but then you allso have to add on dex loss for "overweight" characters.

I might not exactly agree with the numbers, but the general idea would be nice to see come into play.