Time and time again I've seen people toss strong, well built characters away for very minor things. Losing a sweet set of eq, getting killed in a way they deem stupid, or being booted from a cabal. I don't think this little post of mine will stop that, but I'm hoping it'll shed a different light on the issue.

Section 1- I lost the best set of eq I've ever had.

Damn. That does indeed blow goats, my friend. I've been there before and I agree regearing is one of the things that will cause even the most experienced player to groan in frustration. So you're dead, with no gear, and thinking abotu deleting. Ask yourself what would Unca Floofi do? As you ask yourself that...feel comforted in knowing this is the answer: Depending on my frustration level, I would either log off and cool down a bit. OR sigh heavily, pick myself up and start trying to regear. This means contacting any IC allies I've built up, any friendly faces, and flat out gear scavanging. You know all those areas that you just let the gear drop because you didn't need it? You're not the only one who just drops the gear....go check that area out for spares. Also, this is part of learning to be a better pk'er....learning how to regear yourself so that you're back in fighting shape ASAP after going down. Keep in mind...a well built character that is solid takes much more time than rebuilding the perfect set of gear. A character can always rebuild a gear set. All the gear in the world won't rebuild a character.

Section 2 - I was totally pk'd in a horribly unfair and #### way.

Damn. That does indeed blow goats, my friend. However, chances are someone you killed felt the EXACT same way. There's a lot of errant testosterone floating around CF...and no one wants to admit they just got beaten down by someone who was better. Deletion is not going to help your case here, in fact it's just supporting the fact that you gave the best you could, and were found lacking. This isn't exactly the image you should portray. If you get beat, you get beat...how many people have you beaten down? Where would the game be if they all deleted? If we (those shining happy faces behind the scenes) wanted people to vanish after one humiliating defeat....we would have coded it so that death is permanant. We established the con system so that one death was nothing more than one death. Get over it. Again...it takes far longer to build a good character than it does to regear, pick yourself up, and dust yourself off. Additionally, if you're really wise...you'll step back look at what just went down and use it as a learning experience. Knowledge is the key in all situations....if you deny yourself a chance to learn, you'll remain ignorant, and while I'll grant you that ignorance is bliss....until we code up power word bliss, I wouldn't rely on it helping you win a pk.

Section 3 - I got booted from (insert cabal x here) my character is ruined!!

Damn. That does indeed blow goats, my friend. However, this is an oppurtunity not a set back. That's right, I said oppurtunity. You get the chance to play what some of the most fantastical heros and villians of lore and legend are made from. The Outcast. You can play it as an Outcast seeking to redeem themselves, who aids their former cabal even though they're looked at as trash by that cabal. Or you can become defiant and rally against that cabal for how horribly they wronged you. Or...there's the path of the noble Outcast, who continues doing exactly what they were before while they were in the cabal, because they're doing what they feel is right and just. The fact that they were part of a cabal just meant they had allies for a time...and now they're back to doing it solo. Being booted from a cabal is almost never the end of a character in the eyes of the imms....in fact I wish more people would run with the character after they've been booted and just use it as a rp tool. It's a way to build sooooo much into your character from one single act. As I said above, if cabals were meant to be the end-all-be-all of this game....at level 10 everyone would just be inducted into a cabal of their choice. You'll note that we didn't code it that way. Sure, cabals get a big peice of the focus...but that's because they're little snippits of storyline that are living and breathing...and while the mud may very much seem cabal-centric.....it doesn't mean there's no place for the uncaballed or the outcast. All in all, I guess what I'm saying is that many times opportunity knocks and a lot of people ignore it.


Basically, to me a measure of a player's skill and dedication isn't in how well they deal with things when everything goes right. It's how the player deals with the unexpected and the negatives. That's when the true measure of a character shines, in my opinion. Do you delete and throw away the character because of something that in the grand scheme of things is minor? Or do you keep rolling with it, playing every hand that's dealt you with the same perserverance and steadiness? Think it over kids...and the next time you feel the urge to delete, ask yourself. What would Unca Floofi do?



"Oh I was just looking for paradise
Anywhere in this world
While they’re gunning for heaven--
From this man made hell"
- The The

Tongue in cheek post is pretty neat! But please lay off of the goats, that is just way too icky for words. Stick to sheep, much more Scottish in nature.

Oh and regarding deletion... when you are a newbie and do not know how the following works you tend to delete in frustration when you are MDKed:

1) Gear stats and where to find the gear with the stats you want.

2) How to run and find a relatively safe place to lick your wounds.

3) How to deal with rogues who absolutely overwhelm any true newbie.

4) Which class and race combo to play to have a snowball's chance in hell! Ooo.. Hell.. tanning fun! :D

5) You get lost trying to find your corpse and die again.

6) Some rat bastard takes all your light sources and you try to find your way home from an extremely long run to your empty corpse in the dark.

7) Your con has dropped eight points even after all the extra trains you spent trying to keep it near max, the Imm you have been trying to follow is quieter than dirt, and you have nothing but life enemies on whenever you log in.

These are the conditions of deletion that I quite frequently encounter. Heck some guy made a character and when I told him I did not think warriors had a snowballs chance in hell against most of the other classes unless you knew what you were doing he deleted. :P

Imms say don't practice up your skills.. well then if you do not know where the decent gear is your are doubly disadvantaged. Imms say don't rely on your gear, well then what the hell do you do? Nice bit of circular logic.

An aside: Lore, as a skill, blows chunks by the way.

Oh and to all the Imms with angst against helping newbies out by making the early level quests highly evident and maybe having a perma map of Thera available to them: You all blow goats.

CF does not have to be the "nastiest game there is" at low levels. Really it does not. At levels 25+ go hard! But if you want players to hang out make the first half of the levels easier. Heck I would shift a lot of skills/spells/comms up towards the higher levels thus making heroing a character a worthy goal.

But I ramble on long enough and you stench ridden Imms, okay that just may be Valg and Nepe, won't play fair on any ideas to make CF more accessible to new players.

Final word: nice post Shokai and I got it! :) Hard to get over the hump of caring about your character's success and just say WTH whenever you die. :P

Peace out!

>Tongue in cheek post is pretty neat! But please lay off of
>the goats, that is just way too icky for words. Stick to
>sheep, much more Scottish in nature.
>
>Oh and regarding deletion... when you are a newbie and do not
>know how the following works you tend to delete in frustration
>when you are MDKed:
>
>1) Gear stats and where to find the gear with the stats you
>want.
>

Asking ic works wonders, if you are not evil or a pest.

>2) How to run and find a relatively safe place to lick your
>wounds.
>

The ic maps are good enough for this. You can always ask (unless you are evil) for someone to explain to you how to reach kobolds, the silverwood, moudrilar's monastery, the manor etc. I mean, take the manor. If you looked at it, you'd see that it is almost always empty of people. So that makes it a good hiding place. It is on maps lowbies can get and you can ask others for help.

>3) How to deal with rogues who absolutely overwhelm any true
>newbie.
>

Agreed, this is a problem. Again, asking for help ic isn't a bad start.

>4) Which class and race combo to play to have a snowball's
>chance in hell! Ooo.. Hell.. tanning fun! :D
>

Not that hard. In fact, you get advised on this when you roll up your character. Sounds like you ignored the advice.

>5) You get lost trying to find your corpse and die again.
>

Yeah, it sucks. But you probably learn from it, and it doesn't keep happening.

>6) Some rat bastard takes all your light sources and you try
>to find your way home from an extremely long run to your empty
>corpse in the dark.
>

Tried typing OUTFIT right after dying?

>7) Your con has dropped eight points even after all the extra
>trains you spent trying to keep it near max, the Imm you have
>been trying to follow is quieter than dirt, and you have
>nothing but life enemies on whenever you log in.
>

Well, imms have other things to do too. Unless you are an empowerment class (which new players are recommended not to play, at character creation), it shouldn't make or break your character if your imm is not around.

>These are the conditions of deletion that I quite frequently
>encounter. Heck some guy made a character and when I told him
>I did not think warriors had a snowballs chance in hell
>against most of the other classes unless you knew what you
>were doing he deleted. :P

And you are proud of that. Well done. Warriors are actually not too bad against other classes although I will agree that they are somewhat more gear dependant than others. That said, again, asking ic can easily teach you how to gather a set with a 15-20 damroll, and that's enough to be getting on with.

>
>Imms say don't practice up your skills.. well then if you do
>not know where the decent gear is your are doubly
>disadvantaged.

Actually, no. If INSTEAD of spending time spamming skills you spent time exploring, you would find the mud growing easier a lot faster. That's the point. Spamming skills helps somewhat, but less so that spending the equivalent time learning about the mud, especially when you spam skills with every char whereas your exploration knowledge is, for all intents and purposes, cumulative between your characters.

> Imms say don't rely on your gear, well then
>what the hell do you do? Nice bit of circular logic.

Again, if you don't spend your time spamming somewhere, a basic set of gear will be enough for you to learn tactics. I guarantee you that if you were given a well geared lich, as a new player, you would still get torn up by everyone else. Does that mean liches are too weak compared with other classes? No. It means that experience is actually useful. You don't gain experience spamming skills. You gain it by going out and exploring and interacting with other characters.

>
>An aside: Lore, as a skill, blows chunks by the way.
>

Lore is a great skill. It just takes time to get good at it. Unless you are an ap, it shouldn't be a problem. You can just use it without lag whilst fighting, resting etc whenever you are at full mana, since classes with lore don't tend to need their mana much. Lore becomes much more useful as the skill increases. Admittedly, this doesn't tend to happen until the mid to upper levels, but if testing gear is an issue to you, you can always play a race or class that gets 100% in lore.

>Oh and to all the Imms with angst against helping newbies out
>by making the early level quests highly evident

Some quests are highly evident. Others are not. Newbies can get a flavour for quests from the highly evident ones, and if they look around, they'll find the other quests just like any other player would. Everything you need to know to find quests, in general, is taught in the academy. e.g. Looking at room surroundings, reacting to mobs that speak to you etc.

> and maybe
>having a perma map of Thera available to them: You all blow
>goats.
>

You have a perma map of Thera available to you. It doesn't include all areas, but it includes -where- almost all areas are. Maybe you don't get the maps at higher level, but if not, they cost almost no copper to buy from the map-maker. And guess what? The imms have set something up so you can find the mapmaker if you are new.

>CF does not have to be the "nastiest game there is" at low
>levels. Really it does not. At levels 25+ go hard! But if you
>want players to hang out make the first half of the levels
>easier.

Again, interacting with others is the perfect way to do this. I travel with newbies quite often, and the things I show them are easily enough for them to (a) rest safely and (b) rank safely.

> Heck I would shift a lot of skills/spells/comms up
>towards the higher levels thus making heroing a character a
>worthy goal.
>

When you've done it, you'll realise that those skills are nice. Owaza, the hunt, pwk, legacies, rot, immolate, improved invis etc are all extremely powerful skills.

>But I ramble on long enough and you stench ridden Imms, okay
>that just may be Valg and Nepe, won't play fair on any ideas
>to make CF more accessible to new players.
>

I don't think there is a lack of fairness involved. They have a better position to judge things from (since you are not the only newbie they deal with), whereas you have a fairly limited perspectice. Of course your input is important, but if obliging you would cause other problems that you don't know about, you can't expect them to always accomodate your suggestions and requests.

>Final word: nice post Shokai and I got it! :) Hard to get over
>the hump of caring about your character's success and just say
>WTH whenever you die. :P
>

Well, you shouldn't "not care". For example, I would say the first thing to learn is how to escape enemies. So that shows an instinct for self preservation. Once you have that sorted, you can start to practice attacks on people, knowing that unless they kill you fast, you can run away again if it goes wrong. etc. None of that is "not caring".

>Peace out!
>

I think if you stop blaming the imms and consider why they give the advice they do, you will find cf gets easier a lot faster than if you bitch and ignore their advice.

Let me restate that for you: Full of ####!

You have no idea how different CF is from the other muds I have taken part in. CF is the nastiest of them all and with all the other options these days being nasty does not sell. Even the open PK, permadeath, and RP mandatory game I played was a hundred times more newbie friendly and forgiving. I am unable to commit to that much RP at this time but I still love RP and CF does have some excellent periods of it in spurts.

1) Death on CF is still too nasty not nearly as nasty as it used to be but still way too much.

2) Movement is an archaic piece of crap that is no longer needed. Let people move endless and make people earn their kills.

3) For the most part players on CF tend to ignore low level people and when they are low level they do their thing solo.

4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read. Look at any MMORPG you can easily jump right in and go.

5) Hiding the intrinsic values of things is archaic as well look at most games they either have readily accessible values or a very simple way to get them.

6) CF is HUGE and most of the problem for new players as people who are so versed in mudding they have forgotten what it is like to learn a new game.

7) On CF you can lose simply due to gear or skill deficits which makes not knowing what certain skills/supps/comms etc do and what gear works best for your race/class sucky.

8) PK ranges are just silly. The penalty for XP for certain race/class combos is also archaic.

9) Assassins are not only stale, but way too annoying in their current incarnation. They need rework badly right now they are the catch all class with too many strengths and not enough weaknesses. I detest all the martial arts BS used for skills. Might as well call them Ninjas and get it over with. Pathetic IMO.

If you want proof of this I offer the lack of players, the lack of newbies staying here and the lack of fun CF can be when you get arrogant jerks IC or on the boards telling you #### you know ain't true. You think you know what my experience on CF has been and in truth you have no clue. And it seems you have no clue about much else that makes CF daunting and inhospitable.

CF should not be a text based game of Quake it has had too much work and development of the world to be treated as such.

However, provisions would have to be made so that various mv sucking maledictions would still function. Resting for mvs is has and always will be boring.

However, to say that moves are archaic and a waste of time is not true.

Personally I would give sleeping people below level ten double movement regen. Although, its also a chance to read some helpfiles and learn, if you are new.

Personally I would give sleeping people below level ten double movement regen.

We upped it maybe a year ago, FWIW. We've also reclassified a lot of terrain (the trail into Aldevari, the trail into the Halfling Lands, the roads through the Northern Foothills, etc.) so that you can traverse the major, high-traffic areas in less time/movement. A few race/class abilities also make minor contributions here- orcs moving very quickly in their own village, dwarves hiking through mountains faster, the bard song moving down in level, etc.

(If anyone's aware of high movement costs in the newbie areas in places where it doesn't seem sensible, please email me suggestions.)

Movement-regeneration-enhancing items also help here, although I think we need to do more area work (creating and placing the items) to supplement that code.

Unlimited movement wouldn't be such a boon to new players, however- consider it would also mean that experienced players could constantly comb huge sections of Thera looking for victims. Presently, that tactic has a significant opportunity cost (paid in time) to keep it in check.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

In general, I wouldn't change it.

But at the lowest levels, I do literally go to sleep (in the mud) and then go and make a cup of tea in the time it takes to get back to 100% moves. I do use regen enhancing rings. I could use footwear too if I wanted but even so we are talking a matter of 7% boost to regen there.

I would just up the regen before people get into pk. After that, by all means let them experience a hike to reach the Forest of Nowhere. (Any chance of that area being brought up the standard of the newer ones btw? It is good for ranking, but not exactly what I would call polished, especially when compared with the newer areas and what the authors have been able to do with them.)

I was just thinking what a good idea it was to re-do the kobold area. After all, lowbie areas are the first things new players see.

.

>You have no idea how different CF is from the other muds I
>have taken part in.

cf is not the first mud I've played.

> CF is the nastiest of them all

True.

> and with
>all the other options these days being nasty does not sell.

It sells to me.

>Even the open PK, permadeath, and RP mandatory game I played
>was a hundred times more newbie friendly and forgiving.

In what way? Because the mandatory rp forbid flattening someone that mouths off to you or something?

> I am
>unable to commit to that much RP at this time but I still love
>RP and CF does have some excellent periods of it in spurts.
>

Agreed. But rp does have a nasty side as well as a nice side. It can often be rp that gets you killed. You insult someone, and they kill you for it? That could well be rp.

>1) Death on CF is still too nasty not nearly as nasty as it
>used to be but still way too much.
>

It is quite nasty, but again, if you rp with other players, a more experienced player will normally show you how to avoid many deaths or how to mimimise the impact.

>2) Movement is an archaic piece of crap that is no longer
>needed. Let people move endless and make people earn their
>kills.
>

What? Movement is one of the MOST fundamental elements of pk. Entangle, plague, energy drain, hamstring, manacles, terrain etc are all really important. Not to mention refresh. It is largely movement that gives wilderness characters an advantage at lower ranks. It is largely movement that makes priests important at lower ranks.

>3) For the most part players on CF tend to ignore low level
>people and when they are low level they do their thing solo.
>

Fighting classes often do. Other classes often do not. If approached right, a high level character rarely ignores a low level character. If you are demanding, petulant, or just a bit too flul-on, they might stop helping you. But the right approach is normally effective (right being friendly and polite, without giving the impression that they are a dumbass in any way). This can, for example, help you get advice as to where your group of three shapeshifters might be able to rank effectively, or where you might be able to go to avoid getting pk'd.

>4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read. Look
>at any MMORPG you can easily jump right in and go.
>

If you can't even be bothered to learn from helpfiles, it is no wonder you can't learn to cope with this mud. Helpfiles do, for example, contain advice about where is good to rank and what equipment is good for stats of newbies.

>5) Hiding the intrinsic values of things is archaic as well
>look at most games they either have readily accessible values
>or a very simple way to get them.
>

Different does not mean archaic. You know, whilst you can't ask a higher level char (particularly if they have the identify supp/spell) to give you "stats", you can ask them what an object does, and they will tell you it makes you stronger and healthier etc.

>6) CF is HUGE and most of the problem for new players as
>people who are so versed in mudding they have forgotten what
>it is like to learn a new game.
>

I know cf is huge. I know it is hard to learn a new thing. But guess what? I learn new things in life too. I also remember quite well the feeling of my first pk (which involved three of us barely managing to kill the guy that attacked us on his own). I remember when the battlefield seemed like the most complicated maze ever, and I couldn't work out how to get from one side to the other. But real life (and cf) has taught me that more experienced people's advice is at least worth considering, rather than throwing back in their face. It's not wonder higher level characters ignore you if you don't show any appreciation for their efforts. (I note a similar theme on your treatment of the imms here.)

>7) On CF you can lose simply due to gear or skill deficits
>which makes not knowing what certain skills/supps/comms etc do
>and what gear works best for your race/class sucky.
>

Not knowing what certain skills/supps/spells do is indeed sucky. Usually asking people in your guild is a good second step after reading the helpfile. Or alternatively just experiment because I, for example, have found that this is a good way to discover stuff that other people don't know about.

>8) PK ranges are just silly. The penalty for XP for certain
>race/class combos is also archaic.
>

Archaic? Do you know what archaic means? Within your pk range, you will have enemies that are going to be stronger than you, and enemies that will be weaker than you. At some points in your life, with certain races and class combinations, EVERYONE can be stronger than you. But usually that is a temporary measure, or down to the fact that, in general, a human warrior isn't quite what a giant warrior is. Would you expect them to be? Not really.

>9) Assassins are not only stale, but way too annoying in their
>current incarnation. They need rework badly right now they are
>the catch all class with too many strengths and not enough
>weaknesses.

Stale? Assassins are extremely flexible, and they do have weaknesses. Firstly, they have low hp, and secondly they only know a limited range of weapons. They also cannot permalag. So shaman should be assassins, generally. Warriors skilled in hands, axes, maces, will generally beat assassins. Vokers at high level will generally beat assassins unless tiger clawed (in which case they can withdraw). Thirdly they can't go right back into the shadows.

Sure, they are a strong class, but not overly so.

> I detest all the martial arts BS used for skills.
>Might as well call them Ninjas and get it over with. Pathetic
>IMO.
>

Umm, does it make a difference whether you call the guys trained in martial arts ninjas or assassins? Not at all. In cf, an assassin is a guy trained in martial arts.

>If you want proof of this I offer the lack of players,

Third mud on the Top Mud Sites by votes, usually.

> the
>lack of newbies staying here

Well, seems that at least some aren't even trying it, because you put them off.

> and the lack of fun CF can be
>when you get arrogant jerks IC or on the boards telling you
>#### you know ain't true.

Except you don't know it isn't true. You just think it isn't true, or it is just a difference of opinion.

> You think you know what my
>experience on CF has been and in truth you have no clue.

Well, I was new once and also, you've written quite a lot about it.

> And it seems you have no clue about much else that makes CF
>daunting and inhospitable.

I know it is daunting, and I know there are elements that make it inhospitable. However, while there are some problems, you are creating others for yourself. e.g. by not reading helpfiles, not asking properly for help ic, ignoring the advice to new players on what classes to play, and believing that 100% skills and gear are why you are losing. As I said, if you were given a lich with good gear and 100% skills, as a new player, you are still going to get beaten. How? By people that have learnt to use the skills better, with better area knowledge.

It is going to be a long time before you can catch up to them, but what I found worked for me, was to learn a very few areas perfectly. Then, in those areas, I had an advantage (as many vets will not know every nook and cranny of an area) that helped compensate for my inferior gear and, at the time, lack of awareness of what some skills did.

Generally though, unless you died to a gang, one of the best ways to learn is to see how someone managed to beat you. Instead of stopping at "well, they hit twice as hard as I do", keep going onto things like "well, I didn't check to see if anyone was around" or failing that, ask someone ic for advice on how to cope with the tactic you just died to.

>
>CF should not be a text based game of Quake it has had too
>much work and development of the world to be treated as such.

cf isn't a text based version of quake. You seem to have so many problems with the game (e.g. assassins being archaic, movement being archaic, etc) that you don't notice the positives. If you don't like assassins, don't play them. If they keep killing you, go to woods so they can't sneak up on you provided you are keeping an eye open.

Use the resources that are there to help new players. Helpfiles. Other players. Your own initiative.

For example, if you play a ranger, it should be very easy to learn areas without being attacked much. A few words to more experienced players will get you advice on where to go to learn as a ranger. You will be safe from anyone that can't see you there, unless an assassin marks you. To get marked, you had to let the assassin see you in the first place. Then, since you are no longer being attacked, you can be a fairly good ranking groupmate and someone hard to pk. Sure, some people will use invis to pk you, and you probably can't afford yellow roots to see them, but again, this is something that other players can help with. Get someone in your group than can see invisible, or ask another player for other alternatives.

If you insist on making things harder by not reading "boring" helpfiles, then it is no wonder the mud seems too hard.

And yes, there are assholes that like nothing better than to pk anyone that seems vulnerable. You can, however, do things that help avoid them.

I don't have the patience to argue the fine details of what you're ranting about, but I think you're way off base. incognito covered most of the specifics reasonably well IMHO, however.

The piece that caught my attention was:
"4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read."

I'll offer that it's probably the root of your problem, and symbolic of how you treat advice given to you on these forums. People have tried to give you detailed, honest, accurate advice on several occasions, and you generally respond and insult them (right in the subject line, in this case), claiming they have no idea what they're talking about. After a while, people get tired of wasted effort, and move on.

CF just isn't a game where you can blindly mash ahead and succeed. That may mean it isn't the game for you. We're not trying to be the perfect game for everyone.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

You have to be a decent game for everyone. That is the biggest problem I see with you and Nepenthe. You are narrow sighted and see only the veteran/CF friendly points of view. Sure I realize that CF is like your baby, hell Nepenthe used to SKIP classes to play it(if he is the player who used wander S'toon).

So let me be blunt in return:

Your game needs work to compete in this day and age. Your game needs work to draw new players AND to keep them. Your game needs to start into it's next growth spurt and iteration to regain old players and draw new.

Ignore those who complain at your own peril. I have seen a lot of the advice given on the forums to me/others and read it and read it. Basically it amounts to a lot of stuff a skilled player could use but not one grinding through trying to figure out the fact that compare is useless. Lore take too long to learn IC to be worth it. The economy is enormously ANTI-NEWBIE and of course the PK focused players really detract from the joy of getting beyond level 11. Way too many PK skills available too early before a new player can get their foot in the door.

I have seen some of the descriptions, speach, and other roleplaying angles used by a lot of players. They amount to excuses for rampant PK in too many cases. Thankfully the wonderful RPers get their roles, descriptions and the like posted to provide a good example.

Finally, reading a load of crap in game is not only boring, it is taxing. Staring at a computer screen is great if you are a teenager/pre-teen and have an endless attention span so you can get ahead... BUT those are all playing MMPORGs. CF's biggest draw at the moment, that I can see, is that it is free. Followed closely by some Imms and players who can RP the daylights out of you. PK on CF is a broken wheel that needs to be revamped bigtime.

You want to create enthusiasm? Start offering more contests in that forum that could lead to in game implementation of player ideas. Start a contest for ideas of new Assassin skill/spell sets. Let players feel MORE immersed in the game:

1) Input taken seriously is cool.
2) Let players create legacy items and/rooms for a cost.
3) Let Cabal leaders create and run quests in conjunction with Immortals.
4) Let hero level characters petition to have something from their role be developed as a story arc.

Let players earn RP points to be spent on such things via completing quests, entering role contests, description contests etc.

You and Nepenthe seem to reply from a CF PK based standpoint. Always. Well that was great when CF was THE game in town. Now there are way too many other options and CF needs a catch. Along with more newbie friendliness.

PS I give up, last post on this thread. I stirred up #### like I wanted to and got opinions flying. Oh and Incognito's thread started out with a rude title, and was a tad condescending too boot so he got back what he gave.

>You have to be a decent game for everyone.

Unfortunately, that is not possible. What one person wants will be what another person doesn't want. You are often going to be forced to compromise.

That is the
>biggest problem I see with you and Nepenthe. You are narrow
>sighted and see only the veteran/CF friendly points of view.

I don't agree with that. If that's the case, why did they act against skill spamming? Why has kobold area just been revamped? Why have signposts gone up on the roads? Why have helpfiles been extended and made more explicit? I assure you it isn't to tell veteran players some of the stuff that is in there.

>Sure I realize that CF is like your baby, hell Nepenthe used
>to SKIP classes to play it(if he is the player who used wander
>S'toon).
>
>So let me be blunt in return:
>
>Your game needs work to compete in this day and age.

Yes. Most do.

> Your game
>needs work to draw new players AND to keep them.

Yes. Most do.

> Your game
>needs to start into it's next growth spurt and iteration to
>regain old players and draw new.
>

This is one of those areas of compromise. What old players want is often to be in ooc groups killing as many people as they can. Is that going to keep new players? Unlikely.

>Ignore those who complain at your own peril. I have seen a lot
>of the advice given on the forums to me/others and read it and
>read it. Basically it amounts to a lot of stuff a skilled
>player could use but not one grinding through trying to figure
>out the fact that compare is useless.

I agree that compare is pretty useless. I don't use it, myself, anymore.

> Lore take too long to
>learn IC to be worth it.

It takes a while, but the good thing is, you don't have to stop doing whatever you are doing in the meantime. You just spam lore ten times whenever your mana is full, unless that is dangerous.

>The economy is enormously ANTI-NEWBIE

A shortage of coin is anti-newbie. The barter system is actually pro-newbie. But you'd have to read the helpfile and make a concious decision to use it.

>and of course the PK focused players really detract from the
>joy of getting beyond level 11.

I think that depends on both your attitude and theirs. If you can't take getting killed once or twice, then basically this is not the mud for you. If they are multi-killing you (and some do), then I agree that it is a problem that needs to be solved.

> Way too many PK skills
>available too early before a new player can get their foot in
>the door.
>

If you didn't have these skills, wouldn't you get kind of bored with just having detect invis, and stuff?

>I have seen some of the descriptions, speach, and other
>roleplaying angles used by a lot of players. They amount to
>excuses for rampant PK in too many cases.

AGreed.

> Thankfully the
>wonderful RPers get their roles, descriptions and the like
>posted to provide a good example.
>
>Finally, reading a load of crap in game is not only boring, it
>is taxing. Staring at a computer screen is great if you are a
>teenager/pre-teen and have an endless attention span so you
>can get ahead... BUT those are all playing MMPORGs.

Come on. Lots of things in real life require reading the instructions. Sure, you can skip that if you want, but don't complain when it bites you in the ass. If you just died to bash, then read the helpfile on bash. If you want to find basic gear and a place to rank, then do what you are advised to and read the "newbie" helpfiles. No one is saying you have to start at helpfile one and read through to 2000, remembering everything in it.

> CF's
>biggest draw at the moment, that I can see, is that it is
>free. Followed closely by some Imms and players who can RP
>the daylights out of you. PK on CF is a broken wheel that
>needs to be revamped bigtime.
>

The only real flaw with the system that I can see is people that delight in pk'ing newbs again and again. Other than that, your complaint seems to be that assassins are overpowered (play one to hero and see if you still think that), and that newbies die a lot. But if I play any game that I'm new at, I'm likely to lose to veteran players.

>You want to create enthusiasm? Start offering more contests in
>that forum that could lead to in game implementation of player
>ideas. Start a contest for ideas of new Assassin skill/spell
>sets. Let players feel MORE immersed in the game:
>

The thing is, assassins are a popular class. They are also a good class to learn the mud with.

>1) Input taken seriously is cool.

It's important to present your input so that it doesn't sound like a whine though, or it won't be taken as seriously.

>2) Let players create legacy items and/rooms for a cost.

Contests have been run to do such, and some characters can create items. What you are asking seems to be for everyone to have the ability to "build".

>3) Let Cabal leaders create and run quests in conjunction with
>Immortals.

This is already done.

>4) Let hero level characters petition to have something from
>their role be developed as a story arc.
>

This is already done. Only you don't petition for it because, in reality, most people would like this all of the time, and the imms just wouldn't be able to cope. But if an imm notices what you are doing (and involvement with other players is really important if you want this to happen), it can happen.

>Let players earn RP points to be spent on such things via
>completing quests, entering role contests, description
>contests etc.
>

Players already get rewards for completing quests, in role contests and description contests. I've been lucky enough to get some of these.

>You and Nepenthe seem to reply from a CF PK based standpoint.

I think game balance is pretty important, and balance is largely down to pk. You yourself are complaining largely about pk.

>Always. Well that was great when CF was THE game in town. Now
>there are way too many other options and CF needs a catch.
>Along with more newbie friendliness.
>

I agree that cf needs more newbie friendliness, but I don't think the problem is the areas, or the helpfiles, or the skills. I think it is the playerbase that multi-kill. Other than that, nothing seems to be broken that I can see, after reading your post.

>PS I give up, last post on this thread. I stirred up #### like
>I wanted to and got opinions flying. Oh and Incognito's
>thread started out with a rude title, and was a tad
>condescending too boot so he got back what he gave.

Ahh, guess I imagined reading about "stench-ridden imms" in the first post of yours I replied to.

I stand by what I say. You do have issues. You've slagged off much of the imms' work but given the impression in the process that you haven't really explored their work. Not being willing to read helpfiles is a problem. It may put you and some other new players off, but I genuinely can't see a good way around that.

The fact that half of your suggested changes already exist makes me think two things. One, that you and the imms are not as far apart as you seem to think, regarding what the mud needs, but two, that you haven't given the mud a fair chance yet, else you'd know that half of these things existed.

There's still something around today that was based on something a character of mine did. It appealed to some players, and at least one imm (Qaledus) has picked it up and run with it. What you don't get though, is attention on demand from the imms, because they simply can't afford the time to give everyone individual attention. Usually, if you run into a problem with mechanics, one is there to help you. But when you tell them you can't be bothered to read the helpfiles, do you really expect them to think "Wow! I'll drop what I'm working on and spend lots of my time helping this guy that couldn't be bothered to read the helpfiles I wrote"?

>(if he is the player who used wander
>S'toon).

I grudgingly admit I have no idea what you're talking about here, if you don't mind clarifying. I'm not sure if this is because you're thinking of someone else or I just have no idea what you're saying. :)

Ignore those who complain at your own peril.

Correct. However, as game administrators, our job isn't "do everything that anyone posts to a forum". It's "read everything that gets posted to the forums, then make changes that improve the game."

You and Nepenthe seem to reply from a CF PK based standpoint.

The experienced players usually claim the opposite. *shrug*

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The imms could bland down CF to the point where its like just about every game. But then, what would be the point of having it exist at all?

And how easy they are to use.

>You have no idea how different CF is from the other muds I
>have taken part in. CF is the nastiest of them all and with
>all the other options these days being nasty does not sell.
>Even the open PK, permadeath, and RP mandatory game I played
>was a hundred times more newbie friendly and forgiving. I am
>unable to commit to that much RP at this time but I still love
>RP and CF does have some excellent periods of it in spurts.


I've only had limited experience with other muds. Quite frankly, I found every other one that I tried to be very lacking in comparison, and so I always came back. Yeah, it can be one helluva inhospitable game for new and old players alike, and a part of the problem is the mindset behind some of the players; some people have this "jock asshole" attitude that drives them not only to defeat a character IC...no no, that's not enough. They want to get at the player behind the screen and cause whatever anguish they can. These people are sad individuals who should seek help, but the good thing is that they are the minority, so don't be discouraged by the assholes.


>1) Death on CF is still too nasty not nearly as nasty as it
>used to be but still way too much.


What's your solution, then? Is full-looting the problem? Don't you hate it when you die in front of waiting looters? Now, ask yourself, have you honestly never watched two characters fighting and got excited about looting the one that's about to die? Sure you have. It's a part of the game. Sucks for the guy who dies, but it's great for the guy who loots. Maybe this could change, but as the game is right now there would still be ways around it. For instance, if looting were limited to, let's say, 3 items per kill from a PC, people would just call in rangers, outlanders, black sect members, and ragers to destroy corpses so that all the stuff ends up on the ground. I'm getting way off-base here, but I'm trying to anticipate what you are going to say, so bear with me.


>2) Movement is an archaic piece of crap that is no longer
>needed. Let people move endless and make people earn their
>kills.


Well, as you've said before, CF is HUGE. Endless movement would make PK'ing for classes that can't perma-lag (all but one? maybe two if you're lucky?) extremely difficult. People could just run around like a chicken with their heads cut off until the attacker gets sick of it. I hate waiting for movement to regenerate, just like everyone else, but I think the real problem here is that you haven't played enough at the higher levels when movement doesn't seem like such a hassle. So, I challenge you to get a newbie friendly class, such as a warrior, up to 51 and tell me that movement is still a pain in the ass.


>3) For the most part players on CF tend to ignore low level
>people and when they are low level they do their thing solo.


Pretty much. Everyone despises the low, low levels. I'm no different. I think waiting on movement to regen after every 30 steps is crap. I hate the limitations and the amount of time it takes to get out of that "hole of suckiness" that is 1 through 25. I can't tell you how many times I've thought about rolling characters, and then thought about the hassle of the low ranks and said "#### it. I've got better things to do with my life." But in the end I look at the rewards later on and get on with it at some point. Still, the low levels could be made twice as easy and I don't think anyone would complain, and I don't think "game balance" would be jeopardized in any way, shape, or form.


>4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read. Look
>at any MMORPG you can easily jump right in and go.


Come on now, give a little. The helpfile system is GREAT on CF. The problem is that people can be led to water, but they can't be made to drink. Newbies, who could learn just about every useful piece of info they'd ever want to know by looking at the newbie helpfiles, often just sit and ask questions on the newbie channel just to feel like they're getting interaction with Imms, or other players. Well, suck it up, read the damned helpfiles, and let the interactions begin when you know enough of the game to really do something. Do you realize what a luxury it is to have the helpfiles? Not to sound like the old man on the block, but back when I started there wasn't a god damned thing to help me out. I learned by walking around and dying. Yep, dying. No, not dying to players, but dying to huge, nasty aggro mobs that could be summoned into Market Square, or drawn all the way to Galadon by people who would hit them and run, just to watch newbies get fragged. None of that is a problem now. The whole game has been pacified to be more inviting...and the funny thing is that is seems like it has had the opposite effect!


>5) Hiding the intrinsic values of things is archaic as well
>look at most games they either have readily accessible values
>or a very simple way to get them.


Sure, I'll buy that. How about this, though: What if "lore" was dependant not only on your skill in it, but the level of the item? The effect would be that lower level items could be detailed fully at a glance while higher level ones would demand that you either have better lore skill % or a higher level in your guild? Would that be enough?


>6) CF is HUGE and most of the problem for new players as
>people who are so versed in mudding they have forgotten what
>it is like to learn a new game.


Nah, I remember.


>7) On CF you can lose simply due to gear or skill deficits
>which makes not knowing what certain skills/supps/comms etc do
>and what gear works best for your race/class sucky.


One thing you need to realize is that CF is *very* logical nowadays. This kinda thing is lacking in other muds. What I mean is that if you find some piece of armor called "the ensorceled breastplate of Faruq", you can bet it's probably not going to have +5 dam roll, +5 str, and all that other #### that non-mages want. It's going to be good for mages, and you can tell just by seeing the name. Sure, this doesn't hold true for all of the older areas in the game, but for the most part it does. Just go out there and grab the nicest, shiniest, coolest sounding stuff you can find and go kill people who have nicer, shinier stuff. That's how we do it here.


>8) PK ranges are just silly. The penalty for XP for certain
>race/class combos is also archaic.


Well, in some cases I agree. A drow AP should definitely not be as expensive in the XP department as a fire AP, but I don't know if that will hold true whenever they get around to giving the drow a nice new inherent ability. I mean, look at elves now. They are SICK. I'd take an elf paladin over a storm giant any day, and that wasn't always the case. Imagine, if you will, two level 15 warriors. One is a human, one is a fire giant, and both (for the sake of this argument) have an XP penalty of zero. The giant has two two-handed axes, perfected bash, perfected enhanced damage, and resistance to physical weapons. The human has two one-handed weapons wielded. If all skills are equal, chances are that the fire giant is going to PLOW through the human's forehead in about two seconds. The XP penalty helps to offset the huge racial advantages that some have.


>9) Assassins are not only stale, but way too annoying in their
>current incarnation. They need rework badly right now they are
>the catch all class with too many strengths and not enough
>weaknesses. I detest all the martial arts BS used for skills.
>Might as well call them Ninjas and get it over with. Pathetic
>IMO.


Assassins in CF are monks with assassinate tacked on. I think they should be reworked too.


Well, that's all I've got to say on it. Hope it helps a little.

>You have no idea how different CF is from the other muds I
>have taken part in.

I suspect he does.

>1) Death on CF is still too nasty not nearly as nasty as it
>used to be but still way too much.

Are you suggesting the nastiness of death on CF is driving people away? If that's the case, how come the numbers were higher "back in the day" when death, according to you, was even nastier?

>2) Movement is an archaic piece of crap that is no longer
>needed. Let people move endless and make people earn their
>kills.

Except some classes earn their kills precisely by taking away their opponent's ability to move. Shamans come to mind. Necros. I think movement should always be a part of the game, though I could definitely make the case that regen rates should be upped for characters not suffering some move-sucking malediction (plague, poison, etc.)

>3) For the most part players on CF tend to ignore low level
>people and when they are low level they do their thing solo.

Depends on the class. Some do, some don't.

>4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read. Look
>at any MMORPG you can easily jump right in and go.

That's because it's buttons on a screen. There are no buttons on CF's screen. You have to use commands, which means you need to read helpfiles. If you're too lazy to use the help that's out there then it's hard to have alot of pity.

>5) Hiding the intrinsic values of things is archaic as well
>look at most games they either have readily accessible values
>or a very simple way to get them.

Dude. Lots of classes have identify object. Lots of other people have 100% lore. Lots of classes can recite scrolls, which means they also are capable of identifying objects. If you're high enough level you can also *wear* the item and notice how your stats change.

>6) CF is HUGE and most of the problem for new players as
>people who are so versed in mudding they have forgotten what
>it is like to learn a new game.

So your solution is to make it smaller? So people can learn everything there is to know in a short amount of time? Don't think that'd get boring?

>7) On CF you can lose simply due to gear or skill deficits
>which makes not knowing what certain skills/supps/comms etc do
>and what gear works best for your race/class sucky.

Yes, you can lose because you don't know what skills do. That surprises you? Figuring out what gear works best for a given class is pretty simple. There are forums, or you could just use your brain. You definitely can lose because of lack of gear and poor skills, but you probably aren't going to die due to lack of gear and poor skill. If you don't know what skills do, don't know areas, and don't know how to keep aware of your surroundings...nice gear and good skills won't avail you much.

>8) PK ranges are just silly. The penalty for XP for certain
>race/class combos is also archaic.

So your storm paladin should have the same penalty as a human thief? I don't think so. No PK ranges? Would you feel the same way if my hero character decide to multi-kill your lowbie?

>9) Assassins are not only stale, but way too annoying in their
>current incarnation. They need rework badly right now they are
>the catch all class with too many strengths and not enough
>weaknesses.

Not enough weaknesses? Umm. How about no way to avoid lag. How about relatively low hp. How about no inherent dam reduction. How about only learning weapons most people also learn. Etc. If you think they're so strong, play one and kick ass?

>CF should not be a text based game of Quake it has had too
>much work and development of the world to be treated as such.

How can you simultaneously call CF a text-based Quake and also complain about how hard it is to pick up and how harsh the penalty for death is? Quake is easy to learn. There is no penalty for death in Quake. CF is not text-Quake.

>Let me restate that for you: Full of ####!
>
>You have no idea how different CF is from the other muds I
>have taken part in. CF is the nastiest of them all and with
>all the other options these days being nasty does not sell.
>Even the open PK, permadeath, and RP mandatory game I played
>was a hundred times more newbie friendly and forgiving. I am
>unable to commit to that much RP at this time but I still love
>RP and CF does have some excellent periods of it in spurts.

Apparently something didn't grab you about those other muds, hence you being here.

>
>1) Death on CF is still too nasty not nearly as nasty as it
>used to be but still way too much.

It is rather nasty, you're right. But, the bright side is, when you get good at the game its not bad. I get full looted and I'm back up with a comparable set in maybe, I don't know, three hours of active cabal warring. If that, depending on how strong my allies are.

>
>2) Movement is an archaic piece of crap that is no longer
>needed. Let people move endless and make people earn their
>kills.

Its part of the tactics of CF. Its very easy to say 'This killed me, it sucks, remove it', its better however to say, 'This killed me, let me see how I can make it kill other people'.

>
>3) For the most part players on CF tend to ignore low level
>people and when they are low level they do their thing solo.

Varies player to player, but there's no reason why this 'badass hero' whose slain 5000 armies of undead and defeated the combined forces of Empire, Scion, and whatever, to want to sit there and chat with a new adventurer. Consider it like this, if you're an Ensign/Private/whatever in the military, do Admirals/Generals/etc spend a lot of time chit chatting with you or are they usually too busy?

>
>4) Help files are retarded to access and boring to read. Look
>at any MMORPG you can easily jump right in and go.

I don't see how help files are 'retarded to access', but whatever. Jump right in and go to me, means easy. I don't want easy. I get bored with easy. Apparently you do too, thats why you're here. If you loved having things ridiculously easy, you wouldn't be here. This is where the real men/women play. This is the school of hard knocks. Thats why its fun. Doing something here is an accomplishment, not a reflection of mindless time/money spent.

In CF the smarter people usually get ahead, not just the people with ridiculous oodles of free time.

>
>5) Hiding the intrinsic values of things is archaic as well
>look at most games they either have readily accessible values
>or a very simple way to get them.

In CF, knowledge is power. Whats hard to access to you is easily accessed by others, therefore making that other person a commodity. If everyone had identify, locate object, etc, people who have those things now wouldn't be as wanted.

>
>6) CF is HUGE and most of the problem for new players as
>people who are so versed in mudding they have forgotten what
>it is like to learn a new game.

Again, dumbing down CF is not going to increase the fun of it. Its just going to make me go 'Gah, this is boring.'

>
>7) On CF you can lose simply due to gear or skill deficits
>which makes not knowing what certain skills/supps/comms etc do
>and what gear works best for your race/class sucky.
>

On CF, if you try and stop bitching, you will learn. In CF, you can become good at the game and it means something.

>8) PK ranges are just silly. The penalty for XP for certain
>race/class combos is also archaic.

Its to prevent nine million elves and storm giants running around. It keeps populations in line with what they should be.

>
>9) Assassins are not only stale, but way too annoying in their
>current incarnation. They need rework badly right now they are
>the catch all class with too many strengths and not enough
>weaknesses. I detest all the martial arts BS used for skills.
>Might as well call them Ninjas and get it over with. Pathetic
>IMO.

Some people like me, find assassinate ridiculously overpowered given the small amount of risk incurred on using it on some combos. I wouldn't really say you're knowledgable enough just yet about the game to make balance complaints.

>
>If you want proof of this I offer the lack of players, the
>lack of newbies staying here and the lack of fun CF can be
>when you get arrogant jerks IC or on the boards telling you
>#### you know ain't true. You think you know what my
>experience on CF has been and in truth you have no clue. And
>it seems you have no clue about much else that makes CF
>daunting and inhospitable.

You know what? There's always plenty of people in my range and I've had way more fun on CF than I can ever remember having outside my newbie years. Your problem is rather than open-mindingly trying to adapt to the game, you'd rather come here and beg them to change it in a way that will make us veterans not want to play it. I don't need 200 people online. What matters to me is the content, RP and PK. I always have people to PK so thats good enough for me. Numbers will peak more in a few weeks.

>
>CF should not be a text based game of Quake it has had too
>much work and development of the world to be treated as such.

CF is what it is, it should not be the 9 million other MUDs/MMO's that you are encouraging it to be. Its not those for a reason. Thats why I'm here for over 6 years. Thats why some people have been here for 10. Thats why people will always play CF, even if its not 250 players online at all times. Because the game is awesome, even though its hard.

Disclaimer: Incoherence and excitement ensues.

I'm always up to hear new ideas about how to make CF a better game. The key is, I don't want to make it a different kind of game. I just want it to be the best game of its unique kind that it can be.

If tons of player ideas get rejected for every one that's implemented, consider that a damn high ratio of immortal ideas get rejected rather than implemented too, and these are people whose "job" it is to know the game. ####, 90% of my ideas don't go in, and I'm ####ing awesome.

Some things have stagnated, it's true. We've seen a lot of smaller revamps that I think are good improvements (repetoire for bards, mass spells etc. for transmuters, etc.) and add interesting strategic options to the game. It's been a while since anything really major has happened, I agree.

As the saying goes, I'm from the streets and I'm taking it back to the streets. (Except I'm more from the suburbs and that have the same street justice ring to it.) I tell you now, it might not be today, and it might not be tomorrow, but some #### is going down.

If tons of player ideas get rejected for every one that's implemented, consider that a damn high ratio of immortal ideas get rejected rather than implemented too, and these are people whose "job" it is to know the game. ####, 90% of my ideas don't go in, and I'm ####ing awesome.

It's true. 91% of my ideas never see the light of day (I concede Nep's higher 'hit' rate), and I'm super-####ing-awesome. Sigh.

More seriously, I know I make sure to point out to every new staff member that the vast majority of Immortal ideas get shredded into tiny bits long before anyone thinks of putting them in. I usually point them to our archived discussions so they can see all of the horrible ideas that generations of Immortals before them have belched forth, including my own fetid, decaying ones.

Good staff members (and players) roll with the punches of idea rejection.

We've seen a lot of smaller revamps that I think are good improvements (repetoire for bards, mass spells etc. for transmuters, etc.) and add interesting strategic options to the game. It's been a while since anything really major has happened, I agree.

Part of the focus on smaller revamps is my doing. I'm more comfy taking on smaller projects where I feel like I can estimate the impact of the change with a high degree of precision. (Other recent-ish examples: Partial shifts for shapeshifters, Commerce XP, etc.) Sometimes this is a technical issue, as large changes often require the kind of coding that is over my head. Other times it's just being (overly?) cautious.

That said, I'd also like to see us (maybe even me!) throw down with some more daring revamps and expansions in the near future.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>These are the conditions of deletion that I quite frequently
>encounter. Heck some guy made a character and when I told him
>I did not think warriors had a snowballs chance in hell
>against most of the other classes unless you knew what you
>were doing he deleted. :P

I remember when Sarolan and I(as newbie Fungor) went to PK Destrofen(duerg thief) in Ruined City. I spammed scissor kick in that fight, even though he told me to throw(I was hesitant to use 51% throw skill). After we got our asses kicked by Destrofen and his buddy, Sarolan told me to delete and roll a warrior. I almost did, but managed to screw up the deletion process somehow. A 'How do I delete my character'-pray got an answer: Just quit and reroll. I did. And was unhappy with my duergar warrior(which was supposedly the kickass combo of the game, from my assassin perspective) and his skills, which seemed boring and non-versatile(I didn't have slightest clue of weapon specs and legacies back then). In the end, I went back to Fungor and age died him.

My advice to you and any other new players who suffer the problems you listed:

Play a healer or transmuter instead of a warrior.

1. You get identify, so you're not hampered by lore's suckage.

2. You get locate object, which helps when you're trying to figure out where some item comes from.

3. Your utility during ranking (or exploring with others) isn't largely dependent on gear.

4. Your utility during ranking (or exploring with others) isn't largely dependent on your skill percentages.

5. You are an enabler. Especially if you're a healer. Sell or offer your services to more knowledgeable players in exchange for what they know.

6. Between duo-dimension and gate, you're not terribly vulnerable to rogue classes.

7. You get detect invis for free, so you're never without.


Another idea: gnomes, svirfnebli and bards all get 100% lore. Additionally, all classes with the scrolls skill effectively have identify object.

Also: if you choose healer, do some research and pick an imm that's around often.

har?

As if my say matters much anymore...

However, it has always been the case that Shokai actually 'cares' about the morale of the players of this game. This comes from someone who was an immortal with him. He's one of the most selfless people I've had the honor of meeting. Heed his words. They come from many years of playing the best and watching the best. I have found his advice to be sound and valuable. Many of us have grown up, to the younger generation of players we may seem to be chiding their efforts when in reality we are simply offering our own past experiences to learn by.

The tragedy of a great player often tends to be their ego. We all want to be immortalized or 'remembered' in some fashion on this game. There are many ways to do so. As a player, you can do so with class. Back that up with a solid, well presented (good or evil) character. To trash talk both in and out of game, on message boards at that, will only serve to make your fall from the self-erected pedestal that much more painful. Take this from someone who is guilty of all of the above.

This post has come as close as any to making me want to start playing this game again.

You have to bear in mind, not all rage deletes are from ego. If you stop enjoying a character, why would you keep it around? For some people having died to a bug which resulted in loss of set and a bunch of #### talking from their enemies or some such makes them no longer enjoy that character. A lot of time its like, if I have to deal with these ****'s, then why bother? Its not just frustration, that's certainly part of it, but its a general "I don't want to play this character anymore" type of thing. And as Enbuergo stated, thats part of the way the game is. Any game where there's a lot of reward for the victor there is often a lot of frustration for the loser. Its what CF is all about. Its about great reward versus great punishment. Its also the single thing that keeps away players and keeps players here. Its a Catch 22.

Its fine and well to say its merely immaturity and pride and etc. In some cases it is. In other cases its what should be expected based on the high-testosterone gang-down-full-loot PK world that is CF. Berating people for having natural emotions seems like an oversimplification.

I don't think people quite got the grasp of what I'm saying. If you delete because a character is not fun anymore...that's fine. I do that, I'm not going to bne hypocritical and say you shouldn't. My point was that I see too many people give up on a character because they find themselves faced with a hardship not because they're bored.

Hrm...lemme try to clarify that a little. Hitting a point where the character is just no fun, you're not into it, or there's just no life left in a character is a bit like having a dried up orange. Sure you can try to rehydrate it...but ultimately what you have isn't going to be tasty no matter what you do to it. On the other hand, when a character losed gear, dies to a gankdown squad or gets booted from a cabal...that orange is still vibrant and full of juice. Oh sure the outside looks bruised and nasty, but I assure you there's enough juice in that orange for a good glass of oj or two. This is really what I was trying to get at....the mentality that once a character runs into one of these, admittedly demoralizing, conditions the worth of the character is null and void. I hate seeing that. It was not my intention to chide or chastise people for 'natural emotions'....but rather my attempt to tell people that in the 10? years I've been playing the game, I've seen too many people throw away wonderful characters that still had a lot left for them to do...simply because they got frustrated.

"You're perfect yes it's true
But without me you're only you"
- Faith No More


PS...Good to see you still roaming the forums Thror, drop me a line sometime and lemme know how life is working out for you these days.

I've con died nearly all of my characters, lost sets that have made me want to cry and then gotten back up and died again and lost my outfit set from my guildmaster, but I had a hell of a time doing it. Unca Floofi hit the nail on the head, just smile when you die say DAMN, and jump in there kicking/scratching/biting/limbs flailing.

I despise this mentality.

I may be reaading you wrong, but people who live to condie hve been in my opinion unfun to be around. Mostly because they care so little about their character that they think nothing of having my go down. Whether as an ally or an enemy there's just nothing there.

Never found an exception to this.

You may have a point, but I don't think it's so much about not caring about your character. as it is caring a lot about your character and roleplaying him to the max. Take one of my paladins, Peryll, I con died in under 100 hours and played pretty seriously, I just tried to embody what I felt a true paladin was..maybe I do need to rethink my nature. Oh well.

I would say that much of what your argument runs contrary to the base charter of what Carrion Fields is: a place where the weak get smooshed by the strong. Isn't CF about totally demoralizing your opponents to the point where they quit and go play a console game because they can't hack it here? Isn't CF designed (by you and other imms) to reward those who can spend 8 hours a day playing and punish (less interaction, less ability to gather preps, imm comments that say 'logged on for a short bit and left right after a raid. pfft!') those who only have 45 minutes?

The biggest hurdle involved for me is the sheer amount of time required to compete at the top level nowadays. I'm not interested in being a mediocre character with mediocre RP and a mediocre PK record. However, this isn't the 'pick up and play' CF of 6 or 8 years ago, when if you died, screw it grab some purple potions and go nuts. In order to compete with the Cerunnirs, Astillions, and the rest of the prep-crazy crew, you have to do the same. This adds such a significant time investment to most classes that it makes it 'unfun' for me. CF is, in the end, a game, and games should be about fun. Spending 10 hours regearing isn't fun. Sure, maybe I'll go 30 or 40 hours without dying, but *right after a death*, I know that on average, it's going to be 10 hours or so until I'm back to somewhere near where I was. There are exceptions to this both ways, there you have it.

So while your arguments seem salient here, at the time of a death losing a nice set, it's like you're in another dimension where the laws of physics don't apply. You just got ganged down by a sanc'd rager at the Maran and lost your stoneform/glasseye/troll amulet? I can't say that deleting wouldn't seem like a good idea to me.

I disagree with you. I don't play much in any given week. I have no problem gearing,getting cabaled, getting imm interaction, consistently. The only problem I've found from playing very little, is having less IC companions or at least being known, making it harder to level. But then again, there are also benefits that come with that depending on the type of char. 10 hours in a week is A LOT for me. I'd say it's usually in the neighborhood of 5-8, usually on the lower end.

~

We'll take these point by point.


I would say that much of what your argument runs contrary to the base charter of what Carrion Fields is: a place where the weak get smooshed by the strong. Isn't CF about totally demoralizing your opponents to the point where they quit and go play a console game because they can't hack it here?

No. It isn't. If that's how you've been playing it...then perhaps we begin to see why there's such a prevailing mentality of people who play this way. CF is a game, kids. If you're using CF to feed your ego and 'demoralize' another player...seek help. Nothing pisses me off more than people who go beyond IC grudges and decide to hurt the person playing. I have no truck with assholes....if you want to be an asshole, please...for the love of god find another game. CF isn't CS, Unreal, or Quake...don't play it as such.

Isn't CF designed (by you and other imms) to reward those who can spend 8 hours a day playing and punish (less interaction, less ability to gather preps, imm comments that say 'logged on for a short bit and left right after a raid. pfft!') those who only have 45 minutes?


Ooooooh...I see, you're being snotty and sardonic. Gotcha. Which instantly begs the question why I'm actually responding to this. Perhaps it's futility, but respond nevertheless I do. No...CF is not desgined to reward the person who spends their life playing CF. At least, no more than any other game. You ever get smoked down in an arcade (remember those?) by some 14 year old punk who spent the entire day doing nothing but popping quarters into the game? You know why you got schooled down? Because that kid does nothing more than pop quarters into the game all damned day long. OF COURSE HE'S GOING TO BE BETTER THAN YOU. Equally speaking...if I'm looking for a leader, do I want the guy who is on for 1 hour a day? Sorry, even if that guy is the best Maran/Acolyte I've ever laid my eyes on...he's on for 1 hour a day. Which isn't exactly fair to him or the applicants seeking him. So yeah, maybe people who can spend all day on the game get a few extra perks. Is it because CF is set up that way? No. It's because that's how life works. If you don't like it...see if the bus driver can stop at the next exit for you. Additionaly, you twit, if you're on for an hour and some other guy is on for 8....by a realistic factor...who the hell do you expect to get more immtime??!?!? Quite honestly, if the guy who is on for 8 hours was recieving less...I'd be really worried. Again, life works this way...you put more in, you get more out. If I'm sounding pissed...it's because the more I think over the accusation here, I'm certainly getting more aggravated.

The biggest hurdle involved for me is the sheer amount of time required to compete at the top level nowadays.

Why does everyone think the game revolves around level 51?!?!?! For the love of monkies people! There are 41 ranks where you can compete on the pk level. Yes, 51 is the 'endgame'....but (and I'll say it again) if we wanted 51 to be the only arena in town, we'd start eveyone off at 51 and every area would be designed for 51s. Stop bitching about the time it takes to hit hero and start mixing it up when you don't have a full arsenal at your disposal. You want to be impressive, show that at every level of the game you can compete.


I'm not interested in being a mediocre character with mediocre RP and a mediocre PK record.

So roleplay your ass off, and as I suggested above, compete at every level...and I think you'll find you shine and shimmer with the greatest of greats.

However, this isn't the 'pick up and play' CF of 6 or 8 years ago, when if you died, screw it grab some purple potions and go nuts. In order to compete with the Cerunnirs, Astillions, and the rest of the prep-crazy crew, you have to do the same.

Do you? I don't think so...there are plenty of people I've seen who don't give a rat's ass about preps that do more than their fair share of damage. Do they die? Sometimes. Do they take people out? Sure. You know what makes them really stand out? They put down the abacus, they stopped counting numbers, and they decided to play the damned game. They decided to compete at all levels, and do the best they could and learn from their mistakes...instead of deleting at the first sign things may not work the way they want to. Furthermore, do you think *anyone* wants to go down as a crappy pk'er? No. Not a damned person does. But it's part of the game, you count your positives with your negatives and you roll through it, instead of ####ing out when it looks like you're not going to be the top dog. Additionally I'll toss in, anyone who rage deletes and then has the nerve to claim they're a good pk'er is talking out of their ass.

This adds such a significant time investment to most classes that it makes it 'unfun' for me. CF is, in the end, a game, and games should be about fun. Spending 10 hours regearing isn't fun. Sure, maybe I'll go 30 or 40 hours without dying, but *right after a death*, I know that on average, it's going to be 10 hours or so until I'm back to somewhere near where I was. There are exceptions to this both ways, there you have it.


Dude, it doesn't take me 10 hours to get back up to fighting form...and if you even think of saying it's because I'm an imm, I'll let you in on a little secret. Ready? I don't know 85% of the areas in CF anymore. There are fancy gear items I see on people that I have no idea where they come from, nor how to use them properly. So when you say 'there's a huge time investment needed'...I ask you, 'how the hell do you think I feel?'. If I decide to play a mortal, I have to split the little time I have for CF between Shok and my mortal...meaning I learn even less than you do. So quit whining, pick yourself up, tell yourself you're not going to have the perfect pk record, you're not going to have all the immteraction you want, and ultimately....you're going to have frustration...but in the end, you're going to have fun. Why? Because you put down the abacus, you stopped counting the hours, and you played the character you wanted to play. Additionally, I dare you to name me one game that involves competition that doesn't have some level of frustration or time involvement. You say it's a game, you're exactly right. It is. Maybe if more people looked at it like a game...we'd all be better off.

So while your arguments seem salient here, at the time of a death losing a nice set, it's like you're in another dimension where the laws of physics don't apply. You just got ganged down by a sanc'd rager at the Maran and lost your stoneform/glasseye/troll amulet? I can't say that deleting wouldn't seem like a good idea to me.


And here's the entire point of my post summed up. If you're willing to bitch about all the time invested into making a hero, and then you say that because of ONE peice of equipment lost in a bad way...you're willing to delete? Your arguements of time investment fall flat my friend. I think I'd be a lot more sypathetic to people's cries of 'you have to invest too much time if there was less rush to delete as soon as something doesn't go their way. My above post was as a sort of 'don't give up guys...there's hope' attempt. However, like everything else in the world...you're going to hear what you want to hear.

" And try to be the best and...
Let everybody know before I blow
For the sake of what's right
I wanna know who stole the soul?"
- Public Enemy

> Additionally I'll toss in, anyone who rage deletes and then has the nerve to claim they're a good pk'er is talking out of their ass.

No offense but that is one of the most ridiculous things I have ever read on any forum, ever. That is as ridiculous as saying that anyone who HASN'T rage deleted obviously can't PK their way out of a wet paper bag.

You shouldn't post when angry, because most of what you wrote was just biased garbage.

Clearly you missed what I was saying. Yes, you may have skill at pk'ing...but if you can't suck up the loss, then I refuse to accept your mad skillz as being worth anything. To me people who profess mad pking skills and use the word 'elite' and then rage delete because something didn't go their way are akin to the school bully who is tough until someone refuses to bow down to him. The difference to me between skilled pk'er and someone who is essentially a wanker with a big mouth is their ability to roll through the rough times. To use an old cliche, if you can't take it...don't dish it out.

As for my post being biased garbage, you are, of course, entitled to your own opinion. However, I stand by what I posted. If you see it as biased garbage well...now you know where I stand on issues. Feel free to disregard all my further opinions.

A lot of the old-school "PKers" who talk the most were also the people who did their best to exploit permagroups, bugs, and other cheating as well. When their crutches were (forcibly) removed, the majority of them became rather ordinary in short order, usually crying all the way home.

The playground bully is a useful analogy for those people.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that some people only play games such as CF, not to completely immerse themselves in a fantasy atmosphere, but to just flat-out have fun with friends (after all it is a game right?). Take away the friends aspect and all of a sudden, you're just looking at text scrolling by on a monitor attached to a computer in a dark room - the funstick gets a severe case of brewers droop. It's very easy to lose interest under the current guidelines enforced by the Staff. CF is too anti-social for a lot of people.

This isn't a gripe. It's your game, you do with it as you please. If I don't agree with some of your decisions, then that's my problem.

Another is that some people only play games such as CF, not to completely immerse themselves in a fantasy atmosphere, but to just flat-out have fun with friends

Fun for whom? If you were (hypothetically) running around with your three-man-tag-team du jour, with fancy sets of gear you multi-ed over from your IRC pals... it may be fun for you, but it's not very fun for the newbie you just rolled over for the fourth time in two hours.

There's a very good reason we've stamped down hard on that sort of play. If it means losing some of that crowd, so be it. Vaya con Dios.

Heck, we've tried losing some prominent members of that crowd with talks and bans, but they're often the ones who keep popping up like weeds.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

It's hard (and is a process always in refinement) task to strike a balance between allowing CF to be a social game, and allowing six people in a computer lab to repeatedly gang down their entire PK range without talking to them.

If some of the always-play-with-bunches-of-their-friends crowd doesn't like the direction the rules have had to go, maybe they shouldn't have been such jackasses about it when they could do so unchecked. It's clear now that 'no rules about RL friends' can't be the answer.

Come up with an alternate solution that still makes it so one random person can play the game and not be seriously disadvantaged or spam-killed by murderous Iowans and we'll talk.

>A lot of the old-school "PKers" who talk the most were also
>the people who did their best to exploit permagroups, bugs,
>and other cheating as well.
>

how this different from an imm playing a poisonerthief and do all sorts of cool stuff, but when he deletes some imms tweaks the poison path down?

>Ooooooh...I see, you're being snotty and sardonic.

I would say yes, I was being sarcastic, although certainly it wasn't targetted at you. Not all criticism means "this guy is being an asshole to me." Personally, I have always thought you were a good addition to the game. But I can't agree with all of your points, because you're oversimplifying. If this makes me "snotty...sardonic...asshole" etc, that's fine.

>So when you say 'there's a huge time investment needed'...I ask you, 'how the hell do you think I feel?'. If I decide to play a mortal, I have to split the little time I have for CF between Shok and my mortal

Well, I would guess you feel like you're crunched for time. I don't see how this defeats my point about the game taking up too much time to be competitive at the highest level. You're spinning off on a different topic. The question is, 'how does the average player feel about changes over the last few years that require much more time invested to stay competitive on average?'

>Because you put down the abacus, you stopped counting the hours, and you played the character you wanted to play.

I've never been a number cruncher, and I hope you mean the universal 'you.' If you mean me in particular, this reminds me of when Valg told me to not make spurious accusations, and that people like me who sit in IRC CF chatrooms are essentially tearing down CF. I found that amusing as well, considering the last time I was in a CF chatroom was 1998. See the irony?

>Dude, it doesn't take me 10 hours to get back up to fighting form

What I said was back to where you were before you died. Not back to fighting form.

>If you're willing to bitch about all the time invested into making a hero, and then you say that because of ONE peice of equipment lost in a bad way...you're willing to delete?

Please point out where I said anything like this?

>Why does everyone think the game revolves around level 51?!?!?!

Top level as in top level of competitive play, not guild level. Although I would encourage you (as in imms) to stop giving folks like Daurwyn crappy titles when they don't rank quickly enough if you honestly believe what you're saying.

>Additionally I'll toss in, anyone who rage deletes and then has the nerve to claim they're a good pk'er is talking out of their ass.

The two aren't the same thing. I could go 500 and 0 with a 1.0 gank-o-meter and then rage delete my next lvl 11 character, and according to this standard, I wouldn't be a good pk'er. It's apples and oranges.

>So roleplay your ass off, and as I suggested above, compete at every level...and I think you'll find you shine and shimmer with the greatest of greats.

Well, I'm no Challen, but I think I do just fine. You can feel free to check out any of my characters' pbfs if you want to see what you and your fellow staff members thought about them.
__________________________________________

The bottom line is that I don't think you really took the time to read my post. You saw a qualification of your argument; then you saw red. If you want to take a pretty benign response, get personally offended that someone would qualify your points, I can't stop that. Most of your comments weren't actually direct reflections of what I was saying in any case. I think you had a preconceived notion of what the criticism would be and responded to that, rather than my post.

I did actually read your post, and my reaction to it was pretty much what I typed down....admittedly mingled with annoyance. (You'll have to give me this one, as many times as the imm staff gets knocked around these days I tend to get a little sensitive to imm bashing. Even when it's posted as a sort of generic broadstroke type of way.)

I would say yes, I was being sarcastic, although certainly it wasn't targetted at you. Not all criticism means "this guy is being an asshole to me." Personally, I have always thought you were a good addition to the game. But I can't agree with all of your points, because you're oversimplifying. If this makes me "snotty...sardonic...asshole" etc, that's fine.

I'm a sensitive guy, I tend to return the attitude I sense being given me. I can take criticism (hell, my job requires I have a thicker skin than most people), but it's all in the nature of the tone as to how I react to it. In that I'm pretty much like most people. Disagreeing with my points is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I've never said 'I am right, and only I am right'....however, once again...come at me baring your teeth, and I'll respond in the same. Human nature.

What I said was back to where you were before you died. Not back to fighting form.

So you did, I still contend that 10 hours to reach 'peak fighting form' isn't that bad at all. Once again you seem to be focused on the upper tier and not the levels inbetween. Hammersong made a really REALLY brilliant point...everyone wants to be remembered and no one wants to go down as just another face in the crowd. I suffer from this as well, it makes me sad that three of my favorite characters to play only a handful of people remember. Such is life though. Ironicly one of the single most influentual characters I've ever encountered in my entire span of playing CF...I'd doubt many people would recognise. Btw...Robilar, if you're still out there...I'm talkin' about you buddy. I guess the point of my post was an attempt to say point out the incongrutiy between wanting to be rememberred and deleting when you get frustrated. How can you ever be rememebred as anything but an almost ran if you burn down your character because something bad happens? Like any good golfer will tell you, it's all about follow through and playing the ball where it drops.

Top level as in top level of competitive play, not guild level. Although I would encourage you (as in imms) to stop giving folks like Daurwyn crappy titles when they don't rank quickly enough if you honestly believe what you're saying.

I've never personally given anyone a title for being at one level for too long, however I know that generally when this happens...someone is blatantly sitting at a level and refusing to move. While I do want everyone to compete at every level...that doesn't mean I want, or encourage, someone to permanantly park themselves at a level and just hang out there. This is why distention came about. Yes, we do push people towards the hero ranks....but that doesn't mean that it's only at the hero ranks that we want to see people competing. If that makes sense.

The two aren't the same thing. I could go 500 and 0 with a 1.0 gank-o-meter and then rage delete my next lvl 11 character, and according to this standard, I wouldn't be a good pk'er. It's apples and oranges.

I hardly consider a level 11 a true rage delete. That's what? 5, 6 hours at the most? I'm not saying a level 11 character isn't important and that it should be treated as a throw-away....in fact I tend to growl when I see people ditch low level characters because they feel they're off to a bad start.* My point, was that part of being a good competitor (in this case pk'er) is being able to gracefully deal with defeat and use it to bolster themselves the next time. Where as the (as my old football coach use to call them) ankle-grabbers can only deal with winning gracefully. (Some people on CF can't even win gracefully...you people who feel the need to taunt and demoralize someone after you've pk'd them...and not because of an IC issue...I'm talking to you). On the whole what I'm saying is...if you stack the deck with only characters you feel were successful...you're not playing a fair judgement. It's called stacking the deck. I think the people who have played all their characters good and ill out and have moderate ratios are far more impressive than the people who have only played the characters that went well from day one and have stellar ratios. If that doesn't make sense, maybe someone who understands what I'm driving at can chime in and say it with 'better' words.

>So roleplay your ass off, and as I suggested above, compete at every level...and I think you'll find you shine and shimmer with the greatest of greats.

Would it surprise you to find out that I have no clue what characters match up to this user name? I know that you're someone (and here the you is not generic) I've never felt was famous for talking out of their ass, or being overly flamerific. However, outside of that...I've got no idea who you've played. I'm like that with almost all of CF. There are a few execeptions I admit. (Chronic Marans/Acolytes I can spot as well as some of the more flamboyant of our playerbase.) However, I generally hate knowing the player of a character and get slightly annoyed when someone tries to tell me who they're playing. Namely because I want to focus on the character, not the player. (For those of you wondering how Jezeral became a leader...reread the former line again and again and again, until it makes sense.)



* As I mentioned this is akin to stacking the deck. Imagine if on a pk counter you could edit it to show only your wins. Everyone would be a force to behold on paper. I guess really that's where I was going with the comment. On paper it's easy to look good when you scrap your 'failures'. Of course the fact that most people consider losing one pk a failing character just makes me sad all over. As I said before, (generic you again) if you can't take it...don't dish it out.

"connect the goddamned dots
who am i trying to impress?
who could care less?"
- Ministry

Believe it or not, you're one of the imms I respect the most. And this is coming from the guy whose first character you smited for asking for a sword when I had no idea how to get to market square }(

First off, I happen to agree that 10 hours is right on the money to get back to feeling "fully recovered" for me. But here is the ironic part - what does deleting because you are now faced with 10 hours unfun time create?

Those other aspects of the game that you complain about being too hard and unfun - i.e. spamming skills and ranking.

It takes longer than ten hours to hero a new character, it takes longer than 10 hours to perfect defenses, it takes longer than 10 hours (barring extrememe good luck) to deck out a new character. All of this we all know and realize, but seem to never consider when that urge to type delete;delete becomes overwhelming. I've gone through periods of never rage deleting, and I've gone through periods of constantly rage deleting so I don't claim to be above it all, but I do feel that if everybody who was in the process of deleting stepped back and analyzed the situation better, fewer rage deletes would happen.

>First off, I happen to agree that 10 hours is right on the money to get back to feeling "fully recovered" for me. But here is the ironic part - what does deleting because you are now faced with 10 hours unfun time create?

I personally feel that CF requires too much time investment. I've felt this way for the last year, which is why my last major character was a healer (almost no need to prep/extremely quick recovery time). 10 hours is almost half a day. Half a day spent doing stuff I don't find fun (I can do that at work and at least get paid). Other people might disagree, but this is my personal opinion. It's also why I'm AWOL from CF and have no real future plans to return. Maybe I'll get the bug again, maybe not. Unfortunately, I'm not a college kid anymore. I barely can stay awake after work/gym/spending time with girlfriend etc, and I am not in a place where spending long amounts of time to be competitive is attractive to me in a game. Sorry for all the short sentences.

I may get mildly irked by your forum posting on occasion, but I've liked almost everyone of your characters alot. Any (well, almost) loss of a player is regrettable. So I can sympathize with your sentiments.

My response was more general than to you specifically.

Here's the situation I'm actually thinking of:
- player gets to hero, hones their skills to a level they are comfortable with (whether it is 100s across the board or something less), gets inducted into a cabal, dies and up and decides to rage delete.

- same player immediately starts the roller for the next character and fully plans to invest the time to write a description, come up with a semblance of a role, hero, equip, and practice skills, yada-yada-yada.

The difference between those two just doesn't add up because no matter how boring or how long it takes to fully recover a character after being killed, it is invariably longer to delete and build up a new one.

"A lot of the old-school "PKers" who talk the most were also the people who did their best to exploit permagroups, bugs, and other cheating as well. When their crutches were (forcibly) removed, the majority of them became rather ordinary in short order, usually crying all the way home."

-Valguarnera


I don't exactly know who you're talking about, but up until the good players i knew left.. they still kicked people's asses solo. I see you spew that line out or something similar to it on a regular basis but i don't see it. The smuggers can all kick ass solo, all the neosofters pimped it left right and center solo. Diku's could all hold their own.. TPK was just on another level of playing than anyone else.. Cathoir kicked ass solo, Marcus, the russians even do well solo most of the time. I do alright on my own, i don't see where you come to the conclusion that the majority of them became rather ordinary because even after all your so-called 'forcible removals' of exploits and other whatever the hells.. these people still kicked ass on their own. So no points to Valg. Go back to the drawing board.

"Additionally I'll toss in, anyone who rage deletes and then has the nerve to claim they're a good pk'er is talking out of their ass."

-Shokai

Ok, now Shokai.. with that line of reasoning there are no good pkers on CF. I would challenge you to show me ANYONE.. that has played CF that has not rage deleted. Maybe you were being obtuse for a reason there, but that's the dumbest thing i've ever heard.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

Remind me not to try to post inspirational posts anymore that speak of a happier side to CF life that doesn't involve throwing away characters. While I don't mind stirring up the stink, I swear I never thought I'd be putting out this many fires over what I thought was a pretty un-flamatory post.

As a response...read my post below "the you was indeed generic". I re-explain what I meant by my comment. Additionally Valg summed it up nicely (and less verbosely than I) in his response to Enbuergo.

"Remind me not to try to post inspirational posts anymore that speak of a happier side to CF life that doesn't involve throwing away characters. While I don't mind stirring up the stink, I swear I never thought I'd be putting out this many fires over what I thought was a pretty un-flamatory post."

It was probably just your choice of words then. I was pretty boggled as to why you would post something like that.


"As a response...read my post below "the you was indeed generic". I re-explain what I meant by my comment. Additionally Valg summed it up nicely (and less verbosely than I) in his response to Enbuergo."

Ok, at least that's cleared up. I didn't want to think you'd lost your marbles.

Now from your reply to Enbuergo.


"I'm a sensitive guy, I tend to return the attitude I sense being given me. I can take criticism (hell, my job requires I have a thicker skin than most people), but it's all in the nature of the tone as to how I react to it. In that I'm pretty much like most people. Disagreeing with my points is fine, everyone is entitled to their own opinions and I've never said 'I am right, and only I am right'....however, once again...come at me baring your teeth, and I'll respond in the same. Human nature."

This is why you're one of three.. maybe four imms that i genuinely like. You don't have Valg's autoresponse bot that shoots out the same drivel time and time again that doesn't really bring up anything new, but just tries to repeat what he's said a thousand times before with bigger words. You have that human element when you deal with the playerbase.. Valg. sadly lacks it. If his forum skills are akin to his social skills, i could probably then understand why he is like he is. But chin up Shok, we think you're great. You're not the kind of imm to judge someone on the amount of emotes they spam or even the use of proper punctuation and grammar. Human element. Some people have it, some people don't.



Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I'll place two of your quotes in sequence first.

Isn't CF about totally demoralizing your opponents to the point where they quit and go play a console game because they can't hack it here?

You just got ganged down by a sanc'd rager at the Maran and lost your stoneform/glasseye/troll amulet? I can't say that deleting wouldn't seem like a good idea to me.

CF is, in the end, a game, and games should be about fun.

Ultimately, the rage-deleter, PK-focused, boy-am-I-angry-today crew tends to think the game should be "fun" for them, meaning that they always win, and everyone else always loses. They tend to talk the most #### on the forums, only fight the weakest people they can find, taunt the defeated, and they're the first ones to complain when the unfair advantages (permagroups, overpowered tactics, etc.) they (partially) rely on are removed or toned down. They usually roleplay just enough to not get busted.

There's another crowd that is also focused on PK, but they're the people who go after challenges, not victories. They'll play odd combinations, go after the other top players, and take the occasional loss with some element of sportsmanship and humility. You rarely see these people tooting their own horn on forums (other people vouch for them as needed, but not more), and they're usually happy when something that is too strong is toned down, or new countertactics become available. They're usually consistent roleplayers, even when their role means making a decision that makes PK harder in some fashion.

Guess which crowd we're going to fight to keep?

As you said, CF is a game, and games are about fun. However, from our angle, the goal is for everyone to have fun, not just the top of the killing heap.

Losing gracefully is part of that, and rage-deleting is the antithesis of losing gracefully. (Bonus non-points for ranting at the person who beat you first, however.)

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

As you keep writing things like this Valg, please.. never ask yourself why CF peaks at around 45 players online during primetime.. you've been evolving CF in to what *YOU* want it to be.. not what the playerbase wants. I'm sure you'll have fun coding new classes for Daurwyn when he's the only one left playing.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I mean, the imms are not drinking Valgy Kool-Aid and most, if not all, changes are discussed ad infinitum before being coded in. I'm sure if Valgy was off doing his own thing, coding stuff that nobody else in the immhood supported that he would be unceremoniously dismissed.

The problem with CF is not Valguarnera, the problem with CF is an aging playerbase that finds itself with things other than CF to do. I know that as soon as the 40-hour work-week hits I'll probably stop with the CF'ing. Other people are getting married, working hard, raising kids, etc., and as such their game-time is diminishing. What little time they have is better spent on PS2/Xbox games because you can play for an hour, save, and quit and have accomplished something. If people are quitting CF I doubt they're picking up with other muds. Some do, but most aren't. They're doing other things entirely. The kids coming up aren't getting into muds because muds are so 1995. They're getting into video games.

Fourty-five at peak hours sucks, granted, especially for those who are trying to rank, but I doubt it's because Valguarnera and the other imms got tired of Arolin.

Let's get this straight real quick, Arolin was never brought up in this conversation at all.. (until you posted). Their game is diminishing because people are moving on to other things, because the game does not have what it takes to keep them around anymore. It used to. These same people that are leaving/already gone used to play for insane playing times.. i've seen some of them do 24 hours easily, multiple times a week. Some of them have jobs, some of them would rather play X-box because it's more fullfilling than playing CF now. To tell me that a player that goes from playing CF for days to not playing at all is because of all these other reasons and not because CF isnt' as good as it used to be gameplay wise... you're just tossing blame on to everything else but the real problem. THE GAME IS NOT AS FUN.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

The game isn't as fun to me anymore because of the playerbase, not because of the imms. The playerbase, and by playerbase I mean only mortals, contains those who are logging on/off en masse or not at all. The playerbase contains those posting quest secrets on forums, getting entire areas/items removed, and causing ABS to be moved around. The playerbase includes those full looting my ass, down to my pies, and forcing me to spend the next hour of my life killing/requesting for stuff to get me back in the mix.

I'm not a powerplayer. Powerplayers don't play 2 straight healers. Maybe your reasons are different. One thing I've learned recently, specifically in regard to ABS, is that it's not as bad as it seems. I've found a ton recently. I've a hunch it's things like that that people like you would point to when you say "This game sucks now."

Or was it that permagroups were the ones that stayed logged in against insane odds? I can see a correlation, can you?


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

If you're arguing in favor of permagroups I find your position to be indefensible. Permagroups are part and parcel of my mass login/off complaint. There are people out there who I wonder who they think they're kidding. When somebody logs on and 2 minutes later their lover logs in and the first person logs off 30 minutes later followed immediately by their lover...wtf?

Permagroups and mass logins/offs are the devil Bobby.

I'm not arguing in favor of them, it is a little unfair to people with no friends. But really, it's pretty obvious that permagroups did stay logged in against lots of enemies. Alot of the time these permagroups fought each other, it was great. Neosoft vs DIKU vs SMUG vs Thror and his friends,Rozanov etc. vs matraien and whoever he used to perma with vs many many more.

Some people still permagroup, that's what keeps CF fun for them, playing the game with some people they've met on CF and have played with for the last 8 years.


Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I apologize for changing my post while you were responding to it. I'll continue here. I don't care if the permagroupers find it fun and that's the only way they can keep CF fun for them. CF is fun for me when there is a level playing field. Playing against somebody who can talk to the dude next to them in the computer lab while in the middle of combat is not fair.

I fought along side you as Quevea and there's no doubt you're a talented Pk'er. However, it's really too bad if you're not interested anymore because the imms cracked down on you for perma'ing or brought an end to SMUG, Neosoft, etc.

"I apologize for changing my post while you were responding to it. I'll continue here. I don't care if the permagroupers find it fun and that's the only way they can keep CF fun for them. CF is fun for me when there is a level playing field. Playing against somebody who can talk to the dude next to them in the computer lab while in the middle of combat is not fair."

That's the thing, as far as i know about most people who permagroup. There are zero of them that play in computer labs with their friends anymore. They might have in college 3 or 4 years ago, some longer.. but not anymore. It's not that i'm not interested anymore because the imms cracked down on me for perma'ing.. I mudded before i knew those
people and it was fun.. I mudded with them, and it was even more fun. Now the way the game has evolved it's tedious at times to do something as inane as getting a level or two. I liked hanging around Quevea too, made CF alot of fun. Someone cool i could hang around with. If you had not shown up i would of probably deleted out of boredom before even heroing.

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

I apologize for changing my post while you were responding to it. I'll continue here. I don't care if the permagroupers find it fun and that's the only way they can keep CF fun for them. CF is fun for me when there is a level playing field.

Agreed. CF forums (and notes to imm, and my inbox) frequently have players complaining that so-and-so is a permagroup as well. It definitely pisses off the solo/casual players, and isn't a fringe complaint.

Playing against somebody who can talk to the dude next to them in the computer lab while in the middle of combat is not fair.

If that was the most significant advantage they had, it probably wouldn't be a big deal. The larger problems are:

1) Custom-designed groups (Class choices, zero-percent betrayal, synchronized logons.)
2) Gear obtained by multi-charring or OOC hookups.
3) Exclusion. Sure, there's three more people in your range. But they're only going to group with each other, not you.

As Nep noted, there was a time in CF's history when permagroups were legal. The IMMs of the day (*) looked at how that worked in practice, saw how "fun" it was for the playerbase as a whole, and changed the rules accordingly to ban permagroups. I've enforced it enough times (Jhyrbian included), which typically involves a lot of snooping before the characters are pulled aside. Permagroups fall into two categories, in my experience:

1) Scared newbies huddling together so they don't die. This ultimately slows their development (spending all your time with someone else who doesn't know what they are doing will do that). These people typically get pulled aside, talk about it some, and play separately, or at least mostly so.

2) Multiple experienced players trying to rack up a body count. A player asked me about this once, and I tracked the impact of a particularly obnoxious three-man permagroup through our logs. (This particular group didn't remotely try to stay IC, and mostly sent all-caps taunts to their victims about them being "pimped". Deliberate assholes.) We busted (and denied) them pretty early, but a group like that can land a lot of kills in a very short time. I looked up the last 10 characters they killed (all that day). 5 of those characters never logged on again. Of those 5, 3 of those sites went silent- no one logged in from those sites with any character again. (I waited a month.)

So, just in that one day, having that three-man permagroup around cost us three other players. (Maybe they'd have left soon anyway, but then again maybe if they had a fun login instead, they'd have grown into regular players.) Expand that into the total damage players like that do in a year, and it's easy to see why it makes sense in the bigger picture to lose them.

(*) I'm sure someone will find a way to implicate me, however.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Ugh, that's terrible. I'm rather curious though if you check out stuff like that from regular frequent gangers. I assume the only way they could know it wasn't normal was the OOC comments, that being the case it'd be a good 'grounding' and comparison figure to find out how much the average non-perma, IC cabal gank-squad deters players.

Mostly just to see how much the gang/full looting stacks up to the gang/full looting + OOC.

I like the way you try to imply that those not perma'ing have no friends.

No one is suggesting that perma'ing isn't fun for those that do it, though I personally don't see the kick in making things easier like that. The perma'ing just makes things unfun for those obeying the rules of the game.

And when perma's see nothing wrong with repeatedly squashing obvious newbs because they are "teaching them with tough love" or something, that's when new players leave, instead of staying to become experienced.

People have continued to leave even without any permagroups.

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

nt

How do you make CF more of a game that you can play for an hour and log off if you want to, without compromising too much of what makes it great?

I don't think changes to preps or practicing or any of the other usual hot topics are the answer here. I think it's more a shift in mentality and I'm not sure how to change it.

When I started playing CF, if I had an hour break between classes I'd often log on, play for that hour, and then log off. People did this all the time.

One place I see a conflict between old-CF-mentality and newer-CF-mentality with respect to logons and logoffs is that we've come to expect people to not quit mid-raid, with their item gone, etc.

You can try to blame the staff for this mentality shift, but that really isn't fair. More, we gave the players what they were asking for. (As players ourselves, we're a part of the problem on that end, of course.) People would ask why people didn't get punished for logging off just as their cabal guardian got hit or to avoid other consequences, and so we tended to step that up.

I'm not sure if there's a happy medium there. If I play for hour stints, I'm going to log off, sometimes, at what look to be very convienient times. There's no helping that. The question is, would the playerbase trust the staff to keep a watch on that kind of thing statistically and make the call of whether someone logging on or off at a certain time is just the times they play or is part of a pattern of doing convienient things.

If there's a solution in there or other problems I'm not seeing, I'd like to hear them.

Make Thera Half as Big.

The rest of this is rambling, feel free to not to read it. It is, however, a serious suggestion.

Room wise, not area wise.... Is anything hurt by eastern being 35 rooms instead of 70? Is anything hurt by making it possible to run all the way from galadon to FoN as a rank 15 and not have to rest (but still be low mv when you get there). Here is a prep gathering run I might make with my current character... Udgaard Ysigrath HToS Galadon Seantryn Arkham. How long does that take speek walking? now halve it, and you have a much faster pick up and go game, leading to more enjoyement. More crowded = more rp, more pk. If you don't beleive me, take a druid on your test build (assuming there is one) now *by hand* do a where in every area. Time yourself. Now consider that most don't have pathfinding + refresh. Take the time it took add 20 minutes for refreshing/resting/longer movement times in wilderness. Find a way to halve this time....

Laearrist

Firstly, there is no need to check every area when you are checking areas, unless someone is specifically trying to hide. If they are going to that much effort, maybe it shouldn't be easy to locate them.

Secondly, at low levels, movement is a critical factor in pk.

Thirdly, even at higher levels it is relevant as to whether you can afford to tire yourself out berserking and flurrying whilst clambering around mountains etc.

Fourthly, there is the refresh supp.

What you are suggesting could, imho, be better achieved by merging which areas can be seen by a single "where" command, but not changing the layout. However, that then reduces your chances of getting the element of surprise.

I can spend hours in a ranking area appropriate for my level without any fear of being pk'd so long as I'm semi vigilant and choose a ranking area that isn't easy to get to. This is wrong. Back in the day, 13w2nw took me to an area that was more dangerous than Eastern Road has ever been, by virtue of the fact you could more or less rank there 1-51. The more crowded CF feels, the more fun. Now, to address your point directly...

If they are trying to hide, then, yes, they should be hard to find, but if they are just sitting in one place, you should find them eventually, and this shouldn't take an hour. The hider has the advantage of being able to move, potentially to an area you've already checked. All I'm saying is cut down how long it takes to check areas by shortening the distance between them.

Yes, movement is a critical facter in lowbie pk. Just because stuff is closer together doesn't mean you can't still run out, or catch your prey at a healer trying to refresh.... Rangers & druids already have the advantage of moving more quickly in the wilderness. Coupled with entangle, they shouldn't have a problem running you out of mv. I hear more complaints from wilderness types about people not going into the wilderness than anything else... Wouldn't you be more likely to venture into wilderness if you knew you wouldn't have to rest 10 times just to get anywhere? I know I would. The Past is essentially off my ranking list because of dangerous teleportations, the complete inability to run out without resting, and general annoyance at having to rest (for mv) while ranking.

Again, still relevent... people run themselves completely out of mv flurrying, and berserk is hardly a serious mv sapper at high levels.

Yes, yes there is. My complaint isn't so much about running out, or running low on mv, but rather on the time it takes to move about (only partly do to running out) simply because the distances are so long. 8 steps from Midgaard to New Thalos was a bit small, but 70+ is excessive, no matter how you look at it. It takes RL minutes to walk down eastern... how is that fun?

What I am suggesting is making Thera seem more crowded. If it seems crowded even with 40 people on, imagine the mayhem with 80. New players will see it, and become excited. Old players won't look at 40 people and go, "Blah, looks like I'm not going to do anything interesting tonight...". Right now, 40 people means I might go hours real time without seeing another character. I can solo rank anywhere I want without any fear of pk. I haven't been successfully suprised by a pk'r while ranking in ages, mostly because from the entrance to the area to where I'm killing is so far, I ALWAYS see them coming, even with only moderate attentiveness. Remember when cities used to be crowded because, despite the ineffectiveness of Arbiters, it was still much much safer in town than out?

CF is a much much better game now than it was 2 or 5 or 10 years ago. Ranking is easier (mostly due to more class abilities). Skill spamming is harder, but you can perfect anything you want through ranking. However, I honestly beleive that making the world smaller would seriously up the fun factor. Think about how much less time it would take to regear, gather preps, rank, etc. Now consider what you would be doing with that time instead.... rping and pking, isn't that what the game is about?

This is much longer than I intended, but I don't feel much like working, so.... here you go.

Learrist

Old skool ones? That would lead to complaints about ranking being harder.

The newer areas are superior in quality to the older ones, so it seems a bad idea to axe those.

Eastern road being long is actually kind of good in my book. Being "road", it doesn't take too long to run along, and I kind of like the fact that you can be spotted at such a long way off but never quite know where people are on the road half the time.

The other advantage to eastern road being long is that (for me at least) it makes it easier to visualise where things are in Thera. As a newbie, I would expect that this would make it easier to figure out where places are.

Given that there is no appreciable lag moving on roads though, I'd say it takes under a minute to walk the length of eastern road, and under a minute to walk from Galadon to Udgaard if you stick to the road the whole way.

The Seantryn Modan is a bit more of a trek because of the ocean. Maybe let people spend gold for a ship. 500 copper takes you from Docks of Hamsah to Docks of Modan, with one tick of lag where you are "on a ship" and safe from attack. 250 copper might buy you a ticket from Hamsah to Arkham. You could probably throw in ships to the rivermouth near Kiadana, but not Corte, Crystal Island or Sirine Island.

I actually wouldn't axe any areas, but rather take every other room out of areas that are large for the sake of being large. For instance, the holy grove on the past side. Who would notice if half that area dissapeared tomorrow? No disrepect meant to those that write the areas, but you could more or less systematically go through any area and remove half the rooms without any considerable loss in content. How many empty houses are there in areas like balator... how many open plains rooms do you really need, how far off of Eastern does Black Claw really need to be? How come every area has 10 wilderness rooms leading to where you find the content of the area i.e. Moudrillars, Eregion's canyon and the path on the west, the new area north of prosiminy, the new orc keep (lesser example), etc. This kind of change would be a major shift, but I hope someone is actually considering it, because more crowded = more fun. Why else would people complain about low numbers? 20 people can feel like 1000 if they're all packed into 10 rooms.

Laearrist

I always took the approach to be part of the flavour of an area. I agree that Balator is not the most exciting place in terms of houses, but compressing it would mean two things. Firstly that it is even easier to ambush rankers there (and it is already extremely easy), and secondly that every house there has some fairly powerful mob living there.

Other than Balator, I kind of like the way that you climb up the winding mountain path to Moudrilar's. Do you remember the first time you went up it? Wondering whether there was something dangerous ahead in the clouds? It also adds to the atmosphere (for me) that I can feel that I'd see people coming up the mountain path whilst in the monastery, before they are smashing me into the ground. (Given that the attacker usually has the advantage when attacking a ranking group.)

Eregion's canyon I can remember shuffling along until I suddenly... well, not to give anything away but you can probably guess what happened.

Blackclaw feels like you are getting off the beaten track to me.

The orc keep confuses me a bit. There's only about 6 rooms to the gates of the keep and they almost all have mobs you can rank off in them. I'm not sure how removing these rooms would make a difference, except to make ambushing easier. It wouldn't make things feel more crowded to me.

What would make things feel more crowded to me would be if you could sense people in Moudrilar's, Orc Keep, Manor and Silverwood from any of those areas. Not compressing the space, but widening the awareness of it. But then that would make ambushing much harder and would up the power of summon drastically.

As far as the grove in the past, my impression is that maybe you are right. However, I don't know that area inside out so I wouldn't want to say before I've explored it. Personally, I rarely use the grove to get to the past unless I am hoping to find someone coming the other way, or unless I have pathfinding.

I still typically see 75-80 people at primetime. That hasn't dropped significantly in a long time.

Now, off-primetime? That seems to be missing people, no question.

Nonetheless, your time is better off spent suggesting new ideas for how to improve things than bitching.

I haven't seen 80 people in a very very long time. Or maybe prime-time hours changed slightly? Anytime i do a count the most logged in is somewhere around 60ish for the day. Maybe i'm just unlucky.

Cheers.
Jhyrb.

And the numbers have dropped dramatically. No denying that.

If I see 6 people in my range I am over joyed, I can forget about ranking but at least I have something to do.

I agree with you in all those points. Heck as Golron the first two points applied very much so! I got through so much con thanks to you giving me more and giving me leader con. I wasn't going to not use the gift given to me! So I died. I died for my beliefs, I was not above being slaughtered by groups of 5 imperials in an attempt of defiance by trying to retrieve! No, I had con, I had lots of con so I was going to use it!

But I must say, I feel sorry for whoever has to blow those goats because thats alot of goats that need to get blown every day....

Some answers from someone whose characters usually age die:

Section 1- I lost the best set of eq I've ever had.

If that was really NICE set it often means you will not get
this set back with this character. For example, let us say I died
and some tribunal healer looted my glass eye bracelet.
If I wish it back, I shall wait a couple months until he deletes.
Not with this character.
Though I agree, the perfect set is a good goal but not the only goal.


Section 2 - I was totally pk'd in a horribly unfair and #### way.

Not the death itself but they way your foes play the game may
often drop your spirit. If ragers group with mages and bash you to death
it can be disappointing.

Section 3 - I got booted from (insert cabal x here) my
character is ruined!!

Usually the most valid reason to delete.
If someone likes to play anathema assassins, no problem.
If someone doesn't like it, he deletes.
If I want to play uncaballed or in other cabal,
I would better roll other character keeping that goal in mind.

Sections 1 & 2 These aren't answers, they are justifications.

Let's face it...we all die. No big deal, that's why you can die lots of times. I lost my gear, or so-and-so taunted me and said bad, horrible, mean, nasty things to me and bad-mouthed my dog. What an opportunity! I can kill whomever ganked me! Very cool!

If ragers group with mages and bash you to death it can be disappointing. Please, no trolling.

If each adversity causes a deletion, you will always fall short of the mark and place unrealistic goals on your character. 'I shall never be defeated' is not likely going to go far in CF. With this in mind, no charater is invincible, and will die eventually.

Some folks don't care for the type of challenge that places them beneath the thumb of their enemies...being bereft of gear as an example, but allow me to say, if I just waxed someone, and they come back at me shortly after ghosting, I will take notice of them.

And for those folks who want to talk crap to you after killing you?

Screw 'em.

Section 3
I am not sure that being booted from a cabal is Usually the most valid reason to delete. Many folks get booted because they are not what they should be, aren't online enough, or a myriad of other reasons. Personally, I think cabals should be more difficult to enter which might lower the bootings.

We each play our own game in our minds...it is up to the player to decide our worth. I see a deleted character as a stereotypical drunk in the gutter, having no hope, no will and so on...that is not going to be my butt in there!

I see a deleted character as a stereotypical drunk in the gutter, having no hope, no will and so on...that is not going to be my butt in there!

That's something of a generalization there. What about ones that are deleted because the player no longer gets any enjoyment from playing them? I'd rather, and often do, start over with something I will enjoy for awhile. You know, the hope of something better and the will to start all over. Then of course there are the characters where the player just does not have the time to play the way they want and instead of spending time in the hospice they pull a Kavorkian. I personally salute them, I hate lingerers.

That being said, the three reasons stated for deleting I agree are pretty lame, especially the first two. As for the third one... I'm not entirely sure going from imperial to anathema scion lackey is any less lame than just deleting. One man's opinion.

We each hold our own reasons for leaving, and when I delete a 'failed' character, one who failed in my eyes, it is the stereotypical generalization I see. :P

Starting over give rise to new hopes and possibilities.

One of the most fun characters I ever played ended up anathema. I stuck it out and learned a lot. I also got my "anathema of empire" title replaced with "Hunter of Citizens" which is still my favorite title I've gotten to this day.

What's fun for you may not be fun for others.

Some people enjoy having the odds against them.

Some can overcome ganksquads 8 men deep coming to PK them.

Others, newbies especially, just die a whole bunch and wind up hating and leaving CF.

Telling them to stick it out isn't always the best idea, in my opinion, unless you want to show them a new meaning of frustration.

The "dying in a horribly unfair way".

If that's being multikilled as an orc by an air-offense shifter, a tessing conjie, and a gating healer, I know that even if I play a char that won't be victimised like this, those players are still out there. (And as I said in a past post, I saw this happening to an orc at the hands of my allies. It wasn't to an orc of mine.)

An equivalent example, now fixed by the imms, is that you could stalk ghosts and assassinate people as they unghosted. If that had happened to me, I'd quite likely delete out of disgust for that element of the playerbase.