I thought I would move the bug board post to here because I agree with it and bring it to discussion.

In the past, deathblow went off on things any number of the warrior spec skills, including reposte and concealed. Quickly a large number of those were removed from the "deathblow possible" list. Leaving, as far as I know, only charge, pugil, chargeset*, and parting blow.

Game balance is designed to have some small draw backs on almost any skill/spell for some larger benefit usually, or chance for extremely large benefit. As with pugil and charge, the downside is causing yourself 2 rounds of lag, and your output is okay damage with a 20% chance of massive damage. A very good trade.

All warriors get the above two skills and can utilize them if they see fit. Of course staff specs and polearm specs will put them to greater use, but they are, under the definition, non-spec skills. Moving along.

Parting blow is also a non-spec skill. It was created because it gives a small benefit, one hit, unblockable, upon someone during a condition of fleeing. There is no way to avoid parting blow except not to flee, and the vast majority of characters in the game cannot avoid that if they wish to seek escape. Fine. So no draw back at all, no lag, no downside, nothing, common situation where it comes into play, utterly unblockable and unable to be defended against**, for marginal benefit, one hit.

Now add in deathblow and you change the game balancing of parting blow to where its so out of wack with its initial conception that its not even the same skill. Now there is no draw back at all with this automatic skill, it still comes into play on a very common basis, usually against NON-mages, but the benefit is no longer marginal, it is now marginal with a 20 to 30% change of being astronomical. Fighting a battlerager berserker means that fleeing at half health may still kill you, while against every other warrior, they would get a marginal one strike, something that could be accounted for, possibly.

In addition to the above, a well practiced parting blow warrior will get a parting blow on each FAILED attempt at fleeing. In a room where there are two exits, fleeing failure % is about 25%. Adding even more to this once marginal skill.

Add in the concept of the fun stick. Fights should stand on their merits of skill and decision making, with RNGeneration playing a smaller part. In fights where someone is killed by a deathblow parting blow, it was no skill by the player who has parting blow, because it was intentionally made to be a marginal one hit normal damage strike. In fact, it is rewarding poor decision making by the berserker warrior. They are getting kills for those they should never have gotten a kill upon.

Someone fleeing at 500 hit points can be instantly killed. Including such classes designed specifically to dodge well, be it arial warriors to defensive shapeshifter forms as the mongoose or lemur. The latter suffer greatly for their whole purpose is to be very defensive, yet they can be killed instantly as well by an unblockable, previously marginal skill, which can now hand out up most of 700 points of damage. A game is not fun when despite your best efforts you cannot avoid the 25% chance of dying instantly when you flee from a berserker battlerager at any time below 50% life. Berserkers cry and tear up because they do not get fair fights anymore, this is one of many reasons why. I personally as a player see no reason to expose myself to a competition with another single individual when I can be instantly killed at any time, despite my defenses, during the battle by RNG, but not only then, but also when I flee I know I am going to be hit by a single hit, which could most likely instantly kill me as well.

The final argument on why it should be removed is because it has been removed from many other automatic, marginal one hit, skills, when they were deemed as overpowered. i.e. riposte and concealed. Despite these two automatic skills being confined to warriors who took this specialization, it was deemed too powerful. Yet for some reason, the skill that is automatic and its purpose for a marginal one hit, parting blow, which is accessable to every single warrior at level 27, maintains it.

In conclusion, why does a marginal, one hit skill, giving to every single warrior, which has no draw back at all in any shape or form, is turned, when becoming a berserker, into a fight ending, unspeakable hitting, unblockable, unavoidable strike that comes into play more often then not and more likely against non-mages then mages. From a game balance point of view I see no reason this should continue, from a fun stick point of view, I see no reason for this to continue. From a roleplaying point of view, I see no reason this should continue, seeing this victimizes non-mages much more then mages. And the previous actions of immortals of CF, I see no reason for this to continue. Previous immortal action against skills with the same no downside and marginal upside should be, in itself, a case for it to be removed from death blow.

In all honesty, chargeset should also lose its ability to be DBed. It should be reserved for pugil and charge and that it is. Deathblow is already enough of a benefit upon your normal strikes and pugil and charge, if you put it upon skills with no downside at all whose intention is that it should be marginal one hit, you change the skill dramatically, and unfairly.

A few examples:

861/1259 474/1109 564/772 24900tnl 11 PM> Your attack is halted by Geenaver at the tip of the maul of the titans.
Geenaver delivers a blow of deadly force!
Geenaver's cleave does UNSPEAKABLE things to you!
You have been KILLED!!

The above must have been fun for this shapeshifter. He just wanted to fight Geenaver and got instantly killed, 861 hit points lost. I guess he could just avoid fighting berserkers. That seems to be the answer most people spit out now. That of course, is great for the fun stick and the mud in general. Everyone avoiding the overpowered ones until they can gang them.

1052hp 369m 566mv 21640tnl 8 PM> murder moprah
Moprah yells 'Help! I am being attacked by Ooqogar!'
Swiping with savage speed at Moprah's head, you disrupt his concentration!
Your wrath DISMEMBERS Moprah!
The edges of Moprah's being stretch and twist and he becomes an osprey.
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1052hp 369m 566mv 21640tnl 8 PM>
An osprey dodges your wrath.
Your wrath misses an osprey.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey fades into existence.
You dodge an osprey's claw.
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1052hp 369m 566mv 21640tnl 8 PM> bash
You slam into an osprey, and send him flying!
Your bash MUTILATES an osprey!
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1052hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM>
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
An osprey dodges your wrath.
Your wrath misses an osprey.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
You parry an osprey's claw.
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1052hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM> bash

An osprey dodges your wrath.
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey's claw MUTILATES you!
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1015hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM> You slam into an osprey, and send him flying!
Your bash decimates an osprey!
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1015hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM>
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
An osprey dodges your wrath.
An osprey dodges your wrath.
You parry an osprey's claw.
An osprey has some small but disgusting cuts.

<1015hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM> bash

Your wrath *** DEMOLISHES *** an osprey!
An osprey dodges your wrath.
Your wrath *** DEMOLISHES *** an osprey!
An osprey's claw misses you.
An osprey is gushing blood.

<1015hp 379m 617mv 21640tnl 8 PM>
You get in one more shot on an osprey as he flees.
You deliver a blow of deadly force!
Your parting blow does UNSPEAKABLE things to an osprey!
An osprey is DEAD!!
You hear an osprey's death cry.
Moprah flaps his wings fiercely for a moment and flies up out of sight.

And this one the shapeshifter is rewarded for tanking somewhat well with being able to flee and being instantly killed with an unblockable, untankable strike.

Your comments?

*Chargeset is the only spec specific DB possible skill left in the game. Most likely because it is a throw back from the old chargeset which you could do as a normal warrior. I believe it was counter back then and you could DB that. I also believe this should be removed from the DB possible list, reasons later.

** Leaving battle without fleeing. Certain very limited skills do this, vanish and certain thief path skill or recalling, mostly available to mages. Certain environmental affects remove this option, one that a large amount of combatting battlerages happen, the village. We will leave this discussion as a wash and leave it out of the discussion for now, other to say that the average player cannot successfully prep to avoid partin blow if not an assassin, a certain thief path, an engimaed warrior, or a mage.

That parting blow should go off on word of recall :)

BTW, all communers can get out of combat without fleeing.

Actually, there are very few classes that can't.

Warriors, (some) thieves, orcs, rangers, anti-paladins.

I'm pretty comfy with that, personally.

>Warriors, (some) thieves, orcs, rangers, anti-paladins.

Actually anyone with scrolls or wands can do it, so thieves, ranger and anti-paladins are safe if they bother. Basically it's just orcs and warriors who have this problem, and they have more hitpoints than anyone else.

The point still stands. The hit point comment does not stand either. A good player is going to have to take into consideration that he could be unspeaked, a 20% chance of it happening, when he attempts to flee from a battlerager. Would you take those odds? Is that a fun thing for you? That basically means that a well equipped hero warrior will have approx. 400 hit points to play with, without damage reduction, before he is forced to flee. Not only must he deal with deathblows in battle, of which he can defend against through defenses, if he wants to escape with his life, he rolls a 1 in 5 chance of instantly dying by no skill of the other person at all.

That means that if the berserker villager hits one deathblow in battle, he is now in the "dead" range when he flees. Is there any other class combination which allows that? At hero is there any other setup that could kill someone in two hits without imputting any skills or creating any lag for him/herself?

We've discussed the numbers elsewhere in this thread. Onto other points:

There are things even warriors can do. Off the top of my head, they can always pick Enigma as a legacy. Retreat is often a better option than flee. Many specializations have knockout moves that can allow the warrior to walk away rather than flee. They can be rescued by others in many situations.

As a trite but valid response, you could just always kill the Rager rather than fleeing.

>That means that if the berserker villager hits one deathblow
>in battle, he is now in the "dead" range when he flees. Is
>there any other class combination which allows that? At hero
>is there any other setup that could kill someone in two hits
>without imputting any skills or creating any lag for
>him/herself?

Oh, probably nothing. There's also only one class that can poison my shoes so I go crazy when I put them on. Only one class that can call the Hunt. Only one class that has rot. There isn't anything in CF that doesn't have some toughness to bring to the table.

thing, a berserker battlerager that can kill someone in two hits without imputting a single command. The rest of what you listed require someone to take their shoes off, hold them in their inventory long enough to have someone steal them, poison them, plant them back, and then wear them all without noticing. Hunt has lag, requires wilderness to be cast from, requires a full moon, 1/4 of the time on the mud. Rot requires first attack, saving throw.

Even at a 1 in 20 chance of taking 800 points of damage when you attempt to flee (key word being attempt) is not fun for the person on the other side. And happens without any skill or imput of the person doing it.

And to quote Valg, "things that require no imput at all and go off during battle are very potent skills", parting blow is that, and when you add deathblow on it, it goes one step further above "potent". Its called "overpowered". If this is not overpowered then why was it taken away from all the other automatic, no imput skills?

.

n/t

And to quote Valg, "things that require no imput at all and go off during battle are very potent skills", parting blow is that,

We're aware it's a potent skill. We're just OK with Berserker BattleRagers being good at fighting, since it's the only thing they are good at.

They aren't (and haven't been) dominating in an overall sense. We're not rushing off to fix things that aren't broken.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

In order for a RBW to get a parting blow on you, you have to allow yourself to fight him. Seems pretty even to me.

How does "non conflict" help the fun stick for anyone, both RBW and non-RBW? Not fighting is a cop-out, valueless statement in any game balance conversation. The whole point of the cabal system is to promote conflict and battling. If you didn't want to fight, then you would not be mudding here. More fighting means more fun for everyone. Severely unbalanced fighting or no fighting, either side of the spectrum is not fun.

Its like saying in Halo 2 when he has the sword and you have nothing but a naked punch, "Well duh just don't fight him and you will have fun." Its not a viable solution to a conflict based game.

If you want to construe the argument in the stupidest possible way, sure.

I'd read it as: You have easy options to avoid fightin RBWs. You can do this until you feel like you won't likely be one-rounded.

The question is do you as an immortal want people constantly avoiding fights until they can have a high certainty of winning? Because right now thats whats happening, because people are not willing to gamble on DB parting blows, among other factors already in play.

Now, the feeling like you won't be one rounded comes usually when you have a gang, which gangs down the RBW, in return the RBW player cries like a baby that they are getting ganged and never get a fair fight. Or you have people like Dwoggurd, who thinks RBWs are fine because he spends every waking moment prepping his character with vast character knowledge gathered over years and years through various connections and means. The message you are sending to players, especially newer players who don't have the time/access as people like Dwoggurd, is basically run away until you can gang them. Where is the fun in that?

Either way, the fun stick is getting kicked in the junk. Why not make it so more people are willing to fight one on one with RBWs? Removing death blow from parting blow would go a long way in doing that. Highly defensive characters would be much more willing to go and fight them because there is not the chance, be it small chance, of dying instantly from any attempt to flee. Its pretty simple.

More fighting = more fun. Fighting one on one = more fun then being ganged. From every possible angle I see it as a win for all sides. And taking DB away from parting blow keeps in line with previous immortal decisions of removing DB from any unblockable attack, no imput, no lag (automatic) skill. The long counter argument to taking DB away period has been, "You can always, dodge/parry/shield block/spin/distance/dodge song it". That doesn't exist here.

Re-stating the same reasons, or ideas over and over, is not going to make your case seem more appealing.

Not every fight was meant to be a toe to toe epic battle. For example if the villager thirsts stay just barely away from them til battle fatigue sets in.

As you mentioned, preps can make a difference. I've never asked anyone for a prep location, and therefore found them on my own. You don't have to be "connected".

Last, I wouldn't expect the imms to change something, if your not willing to change. (i.e. find some preps to help yourself.) As a side note, I use one prep or less usually, and I don't have problems with villagers.

Please post the logs of you having no problems with villagers. There are plenty of logs of RBWs killing one and more then one individuals.

As for posting the same reasons over and over, Nepenthe said its a viable tactic to just avoid them until you don't feel like you will be one rounded, and I feel that avoiding anything in this game takes away from the fun stick and is not a viable solution to a game balance discussion. That Brumbalin character is evidence of someone who can just avoid all pks. I can avoid anyone I want to, but avoiding is not fun nor is it an answer to a game balance issue.

You can take one of many suggestions I put forward (which do not sum the total of possible tactics) and beat it to death because you don't like it, but don't be surprised if I'm not thrilled about continuing the discussion.

I'm a volunteer, and I have better things to do with my time.

I had no problems having decent fights - say about 50/50 with some pretty fierce ragers - Gre, Grogim, Rhomelanthos.

search dio's for some of my Sdradiga logs. RBWs have deathblow parting blow. They also have no way to get out from the Imperail lands Centurion deathtrap. However, they accept this fact as a drawback of their cabal. You fighting ragers also need to accept the fact that the risk of dying is big for you. I've had plenty of situations with plenty of chars at the giant where I've had to make the decision between facing parting blow or going balls to the walls. I don't mind taking this risk, it's what makes the game fun for me. Unexpected stuff happens with deathblow, it's random and painfull.

I'm not exactly sure how you'd explain it, but it might be interesting if rager zerker's could deathblow on a parting blow only when they DIDN'T have the head. (Put it down to rage inspired by frustration.)

This would mean that people don't get effectively one-shotted by zerkers with the head, but it would also help zerkers at centurions when they don't have the head (because someone that keeps fleeing back behind the centurions will get hit with harder pathing blows.

In order for a RBW to get a parting blow on you, you have to allow yourself to fight him. Seems pretty even to me.

Please do not provoke more Graatch-esque essay rants with bait like this.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

n/t

You cannot rec scrolls when you are defending yourself. As of 5/10/05.

A little more: Your numbers are way off, and parting blow is anything but a marginal skill. There's no doubt in my mind that it accounts for more warrior class kills than any other skill.

As for my numbers, if they are off tell me what they are? My experience is 20% chance of a deathblow going off per attempted hit, with parting blow being no different. I have played enough of them to be pretty sure on this. Correct me on the numbers if I am wrong.

If this skill accounts for more warrior class kills then any other skill, why are you making it worse by allowing death blow on it? It does its job, but with deathblow it goes from doing maybe 150 points of damage on a super equipped warrior to 600 to 800 points of damage on an average equipped berserker, more then if very well equipped. Obviously going out of bounds of the limits of what was conceputalized for the skill.

Why was deathblow taken away from riposte? concealed? Automatic, unavoidable, no lag causing skills that cause damage and could deathblow have been decided on already. No, its overpowered. The skill is meant to be at most 150 points of damage, as a punishing flee hit, not an unspeak instat-death hit. It directly affects how I play the game as well as many other people. Berserkers want more one on one fights, this is one very good way of doing it without taking much away from them. I would be much more willing to fight a berserker rager if I knew that I didn't have to calculate for the 500 to 800 hit point loss that may come at any time because of successful fleeing (not accounting for failed ones).

I simply cannot get past the main point of the purpose of the skill and how it is utterly destroyed when you add deathblow to it. You honestly sit down and look at a deathblow parting blow and nod to yourself that game balance wise, that is balanced with everything else in the game. Give me a convincing game balance reason for why a berserker villager should have a 20% chance of doing 500 to 800 points of damage to someone who attempts to flee.

I am not going to get into the discussion that it can be avoided seeing that for a majority of the mud, warriors, thieves, rangers, they cannot. And for the rest there are areas that it is impossible, one of which is the home of battleragers.

>Correct me on
>the numbers if I am wrong.

It's far, far lower than that.

Your chances of seeing a deathblow parting blow specifically are typically less than 5% on any flee.

It can be hard to deal with, but so can many things that trip up Battle and won't trip up other characters. Playing Battle and fighting Battle are different experiences than playing or fighting anything else in CF, and I like that.

Its called don't fight them unless you can gang them. I have played a substantial number of berserker battleragers. I have fought against them as well. And when I was playing both sides, the only time I uttered outloud "####" or "overpowered" is when I was parting blowing people for unspeaks or flash killing people during the two rounds of pincer lag.

Are you sure you aren't thinking that "the average flee" has four possible directions of flight?

Because I can remember a trib I played when the village were all wanted, and more than half the times he fled the parting blow was a deathblow.

It isn't always an option to fight in open plains.

Many flees are at a cabal outer, and thus restricted.

>I simply cannot get past the main point of the purpose of the
>skill and how it is utterly destroyed when you add deathblow
>to it.

Why do you think you know what the main point of the skill is? You say deathblow/parting blow makes warrior afraid of attacking battleragers. Maybe that *is* the point. Stop worrying about whether the skill isn't fitting into your personal view of what it should be intended for. It's like telling Shokai that the point of his religion is to hug fluffy bunnies, and arguing that he's just not implementing it right.

You don't like parting deathblows, fine, that's a reasonable point to argue. But saying that they're missing the point of the skill is absurd. It's like that flurry thread where the guy couldn't understand how anyone could conceive of flurry being anything other than a whirlwind, Drizzt move.

Its pretty straight fricking forward. The purpose is one hit strike on a fleeing individual designed to seal close to death kills. It is not designed to insta kill someone at greater then 50% health. I find it entertaining and close minded of you to post "how dare I try to defy the GODS" post. That argument pretty much makes these forums useless. They should instead be closed to all but immortal comments since its obvious the players don't know as much as the immortals. The point of view of veteran, experienced, players is feedback that is more important then almost any other feedback. Since it takes two to tango, both immortals to run, implement, and players to play, experience, and comment.

There is nothing wrong with saying that something is unbalanced. There is something wrong with putting it in terms of "this skill is not working as intended" when they verify that it is working as intended, and you just don't like the fact that it's intended to work that way. If you don't see the difference that's unfortunate, and maybe someone else can explain it better than I did.

>strike that comes into play more often then not and more
>likely against non-mages then mages. From a game balance point

Maybe parting blow should hit people wording from combat. Then at least mages would be affected. As for the rest of what you said, I don't really agree. It does suck eating DB parting blows, but it really isn't all that amazingly common.

There are classes I won't fight a berserker with, because I'm not interesting in prepping enough to match the powers. But for anyone less lazy than me, get yourself stoneskin, aura, shield and haste and you're pretty safe to fight them. You may or may not win, but the chances of eating a 500hp deathblow are very small.

Personally, I like the fact that there are people out there I consider too tough to fight. It makes the game seem more interesting.

"Ragers are overpowered!" cries become old.


Add in the concept of the fun stick.

That's exactly the reason why we have db on parting blow.

Seriously, there will be no fun to play ragers if they would be just punching bags.
Let us remove deathblow and bloodthirst from berskerkers.
Then everybody would laugh at them and attack them with little risk involved.
And it would be infinite fun for everyone ( except ragers ).

Deathblow on parting blow gives a rager at least a chance to nail the kill.
They have harder times to escape from their enemies, and I find it fair
when their enemies have some troubles at fleeing as well.

Someone fleeing at 500 hit points can be instantly killed.

Someone at 500 hit points can be instanly killed because of many other reasons.
Flurry, pillar/geyser, lucky ram round ( damn rng ) whatever else.
Let us remove all those things from the game as well.

A game is not fun when despite your best efforts you cannot
avoid the 25% chance of dying instantly when you flee from a
berserker battlerager at any time below 50% life.

Luckely for us, you can avoid it. There are many ways to reduce rager's damage.

I will repeat that again, there is nothing wrong with ragers being tough.
It would be just silly if you can attack them with little risk involved.
Especially when YOU can instantly flee and teleport away when something goes bad.

>"Ragers are overpowered!" cries become old.
>That's exactly the reason why we have db on parting
>blow.

'Thief' said DB on parting blow was overpowered. Not ragers.


>Add in the concept of the fun stick.

Being on receiving end of instant_kill ability which requires no skill or input, just RND is hardly fun.
Conceptually it does not fit battleragers either considering in 90% cases it would be warrior-types who will get killed by DB parting blow.


>Seriously, there will be no fun to play ragers if they would
>be just punching bags.

Eh? Removing DB from parting blow will hardly make ragers punching bags.
They might have harder time raking easy kills but this is about it.

They still have DB and parting blow. Just not both together.
Classic example of this would be a 'lash+cheap shot' discussion a while back.

>I will repeat that again, there is nothing wrong with ragers
>being tough.

They are so tough what in most cases it takes a gang to bring one rager down.
So ragers need DB to defend from gangs.
Which incidentally makes ragers extremely hard to be killed by solo enemy.

It is a vicious circle.

>Especially when YOU can instantly flee and teleport away when
>something goes bad.

Everybody EXCEPT ragers have this option.
This is the price ragers pay for forsaking magic.
Instead they get resist and free cure blindness 24/7 (with head).

Though there is some incorrect info in what 'Thief' said - You are trying to show only one side of the medal. Look at bigger picture.

In certain situations ragers do have hard time, in others they tend to oblitirate everything what moves.
So it balances out... Most of the times.

When it does not, players try to highlight issue to Imms.

Regards,

-=NNNick=-

I am not saying take deathblow away. I am saying take deathblow away from automatic, no imput, no lagging skills with no drawback that cannot be avoided. The argument that it can be avoided is false. Warriors are a majority of the playerbase and no warrior can avoid it except an enigma warrior. Mages are actually a small minority of the mud, with communers even more so.

Those skills you stated, flurry, pillar/geyser, lucky ram round, whatever else, require imput and have a drawback. Flurry has a drawback, four rounds lag, variable number of hits. Geyser has a drawback, area affect, lag from casting. Same with pillar, lag, area affect, must be outside. Parting blow has NONE of those drawbacks. So that point is also moot and useless.

List me all the ways the majority of the mud, warriors, thieves, assassins, can avoid a parting blow? List to me all the ways a warrior, thief, assassin, ranger can prep for damage reduction without having spent hours and hours and hours and multiple characters finding them and also getting them?

A game should be balanced so that the elite, those who do everything right have a slight but noticable advantage. I used to group with you Dwoggurd and you were constantly, blindingly, unavoidably, and without any doubt, constantly prepping when you were not fighting. I used to watch your health and it never sat at 100%. An average player has access to stone skin and maybe shield on a good day. They are NOT YOU. Even with Nabburak, you got your ass kicked through abs by poor judgement berserker villagers. How is an average player supposed to deal with such? Taking away deathblow from parting blow does one thing, turns the skill back to what is is supposed to do, marginal damage equating to the damage one one normal hit. And it also takes kills away from poor tactical decisions by berserker villagers. Thats it.

The funstick for the berserker villager here is not being affected, and most likely his funstick will improve because he will get more fights from people willing to rely on their defenses to defend against deathblow.

Also you cannot instantly flee and recall/teleport when things go bad. Fleeing has a slight lag to it, also fleeing makes you eat, what we are talking about parting blows.

Show me another skill which requires no imput at all from the player that does 700 to 1000 points of damage and I'll be quiet. Until then, I'm right.