To begin with, I'd like to offer some small 'thank yous' to everyone taking the time to actually read my stuff. May sound a bit silly, but alot of things tend to be taken a little too much for granted nowadays. Anyway, on to business.


With the IMM's permission I would like to take this oppurtunity to make a couple of small comments about the Anti-Paladin class, far from all of them bad so no need to start worrying just yet. With this class going through what does seem to be quite a considerable little revamp now (it has become more difficult to save against the damage spells of high-INT Anti-Paladins, eight whole new skills have been added to the repetoire and there is of course the promise of more future 'Power Word' type spells), I feel like now might be a good time to share some ideas about this class that I've been toying around with for a while now. Here goes.


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First off, about the Power Word Despondence spell the Anti-Paladins have recieved. I don't just like the idea behind these Power Word spells, I like it alot. Most players I've talked to or discussed this subject with over the months agree that the Anti-Paladin's Necromancer spellset hurts the uniqueness of the class a great deal, something which is made even more painfully obvious by the fact that there are 15 other classes right next to it which all have a much higher level of uniqueness and originality, which is something this MUD quite rightfully takes alot of pride in.

As a result, most would gladly sacrifice the current Necromancer spellset for something that is less powerful (Yes, you heard that right.), in exchange for something that is more reliable. Nobody will dispute the fact that the Necromancer spells are powerful and effective in the hands of an Anti-Paladin that can make correct use of them, however there is an unpredictability associated with using these spells which the majority of players find much more frustrating and demotivating than they find it thrilling or challenging. I thus sincerely hope that the implementation of the new Power Word spellset will soon become a fact, even if it means these Power Words end up being less powerful in nature than the Necromancer spellset originally was.

As such, it looks like the promised and hopefully upcoming replacement of the Necromancer spellset by the new Power Word spells constitutes a very, very welcomed change among many players that enjoy playing/roleplaying the Anti-Paladin class. I know I've been stating the obvious a little at this point, but I just wanted to ensure the IMMs from my part that I believe they are definately heading into the right direction with this class now.

But now on to something much more important and influencial.



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Aura of Pain.

What is this Aura of Pain I'm talking about? It is something that I would like to suggest very strongly to the IMMs who are sitting behind the Anti-Paladin drawing board.

The rate at which Anti-Paladin players rage-delete even before they reach rank 36 is amongst the highest of any of the classes in Carrion Fields. Things like the frustration coming forth from the unreliability of the Necromancer spellset and the loss of a charged weapon are among those, yet there is one other thing which I have noticed, which seems to be causing even more discontent about the class than the previous two other things seem to do, namely the Anti-Paladin's crappy defenses.
I know. This has been debated so many times before. However, what I am suggesting here to you today is not exactly that Anti-Paladins would be getting the Dodge skill. Not in the least actually, because I'm one of the people who are convinced that giving Anti-Paladins the Dodge skill would make them overpowered. The class has, after all, quite a few powerful and damaging spells available while it can also Dual Wield and is on top of that strengthened by Enhanced Damage. So indeed, it must be acknowledged that Anti-Paladins need to be more vulnerable to physical attacks than most of the other physical-based classes are.

However, what I do not acknowledge and understand in this is why this means that A-Ps have to be as vulnerable as they truly are now. Perhaps I do lack proper class-designing perspectives, but I can't help but get a feeling that something's quite wrong when a Fire Giant with 23 CON and an innate resillience to physical attacks gets defeated in 2 rounds by a warrior who isn't even wielding freezing weapons, because the Fire Giant's sleep spell missed its effect. Again, perhaps I lack perspective, but it doesn't exactly seem normal that a Drow Anti-Paladin, who has Shield Block at 100% and who has all weapons available to his class practiced up in the high 80'ies, gets defeated in a single round (that means the very opening round) while at full health and by the hand of an opponent that is not even using mithril weapons. With these kinds of things happening to even experienced players of the class on a regular bases, should it then be a surprise that a negative and whiny atmosphere starts surrounding this class, particulary from new(er) players that start out with genuine enthusiasm, only to see that enthusiasm getting completely shot down by the re-occuring nature of these fun-wrecking situations? No, I don't think that we should be surprised then.
Now, since Dodge is not an acceptable alternative for reasons already mentioned, I've been thinking that a possible solution could come in the form of a unique type of semi-defensive semi-offensive spell, in the spirit of the newly added Anti-Paladin abilities. Namely, Aura of Pain.

What Aura of Pain would basically do is act as an unholy, vile aura of sorts which has a slightly below average chance of actually returning the damage dealt to the A-P back to the opponent. Please, hear me out first, for while this is indeed a powerful ability with certain impact, and thus naturally raises balance questions, it is also something that can be very easily customized in many ways as the IMMs would deem necessairy. Here, allow me to elaborate.

The basic idea behind Aura of Pain is thus a semi-offensive semi-defensive ability. It falls well within the mindset of the Anti-Paladin class, for only a vile person such as an A-P goes far enough in the experimentation with malevolent magic and pain and torture to discover and control a power such as this. The Anti-Paladin uses both his knowledge into powerful black magic and the way pain makes the body and the mind interact to literally channel everything from the sensation of the pain to the actual wound right back to the one attempting to inflict them upon him, thus momentarily introducing the opponent to the dark power of the Anti-Paladin as well as the Anti-Paladin's ways and views of life.

The ways in which this can be added to the Anti-Paladin skill/spellset are numerous. As it is I am suggesting it as an independant spell, but if you have too many balance concerns there are many possiblities to tweak it. For example, like with Charge of the Morosa you could make Aura of Pain an extension of Aura of Despair. By doing this, Aura of Pain will automatically have the side-effect that the Anti-Paladin will start being auto-attacked by certain mobs, making running and teleporting much more risky and dangerous, thus balancing out the advantages the spell would give through the disadvantages of Aura of Despair. Other things that could be done for example is giving Aura of Pain a duration equal to that of Wraithform, making it difficult for an Anti-Paladin to keep it up all the time and thus giving opponents a fair chance of catching an A-P without him having Aura of Pain up. You could also make it so that Aura of Pain would drain mana in the same way as Shapeshifter forms do, making it much more difficult for the physcially stronger races like Fire Giants and Duergars to keep it up long, while the physically weaker races could benefit from it more often and for longer periods of time. And if need be, you could even apply a combination of the above.

Etc. While a skill that will indeed have a certain impact on the way A-Ps are played and handled, there are many potential ways to compensate for its advantages, as I've just illustrated.

I sincerely hope you'll give this suggestion fair consideration, because while the current state of Anti-Paladin defense is not necessairly underpowered, it does reduce the fun-factor of the class a whole lot, certainly for newer players that choose the class for the charisma it has as the class of great evil, and are thus unaware of the challenge and difficulty they are getting themselves into, ending up with a very bitter taste afterwards all too often.



Very well, that's all I really wanted to say. All that's left is to express my admiration and appreciation for the great work the Immortals of Carrion Fields have been doing for the last 9 years now, and also to express my hope that there may be many, many more years to come.



Thanks for your time.

I liked your post. Your post gave me an idea:
What if the A-P was cured slightly for melee damage they dealt? Maybe in the 5-10% range. Maybe 5% at level 30, +1% every 4 levels, with 10% at hero? Could call it "Pain Siphon". Or for another twist, make it only for ordinary attacks, i.e. cleave, slash, thrust, whip, no freezing/defilement/searing, and call it "Bloody Baptism" or "Blood Bath" or something like that. These sort of fit in with how I see A-Ps as being focused on all elements of loose and careless mayhem, and encourages straightforward brutality.

Only thing I'm slightly confused about is how you actually intend the spell to work. You intend the ap to riposte using a spell based defense? Hmmm, if I were you I'd try replacing something like 'protection' with this aura of pain. Gives the anti-paladin the 1/4 damage redux with the occasional not overly sized return of half the pain they take from a single blow. This would mean things like mongoose attackers feel next to nothing (they hit for decimate, AP sends half that back every 2 rounds or so) and big axe wielding bastards start feeling it really dig into them. Adds something interesting and unique to the class too.

I think you do have some point with power words and aura's. Making them the basis for the class would really make them enjoyable RP wise. Their utilities are already fairly powerful and with added offensive aura's (maybe make it a choice, one aura at a time up) we could have a class that nicely balances combining the preping that mage classes undergo with the 'throw myself at the enemy and eat them alive' feel you get with a giant axe spec. Not overly powered but certainly not vulnerable if preppared for the right situation.

Of course, I may have missed something in your original post, you'll have to forgive me if I skim read it too fast, I don't have a lot of patience for long arguments I'm affraid :P - Entirely my fault of course.


GinGa.

Lets make the Aura of Pain more like controls for the unholy weapon. Replace protection with Aura of Pain. Make it more powerful the more kills you have. Or make it a permanent spell that charge up everytime you kill someone, but if you die, you will loose all its strength and have to start over.

Let me explain a bit more how I'd like to see it work.
First off, it should be like protection until powered up. Lets have it based on kills, and not as a permanent spell. Make it start counting kills somewhere between 30-40(a balance issue, up to 30 the A-P shouldnt have too much trouble, they can be quite strong at low ranks). After a certain amount of kills, 10-20, it could start acting the way it was described. When the A-P takes damage, there is a chance the damage is reflected back to the one dealing the damage. (Note: The A-P would still take damage from the blow). Not all of it at first, just a small part, say 10% of the damage or so. The more kills, the more damage is reflected, and perhaps increase the chance that damage will be reflected(But it should only improve a little every 5 kills or so). We dont want to A-P to be able to reflect back all the damage all the time, do we?
Oh, another thing. The damage reflected should be determined by the damage the A-P takes and not the strength of the attack, or an A-P with A/B/S would be like a porcupine. Except it wouldnt help using a long weapon against him.

This way the A-P still have to kill people to grow strong, but will have it a bit easier building up his strength since it cant be lost by dying. Ofcourse, if you are having trouble killing people at first, this wont help much, but I never considered A-P to be a class for bad Pkers.
Ofcourse, this could make a well-played A-P a bit overpowered, so it would be up to the Imms to balance things out if the idea is to their liking.

' Or make it a permanent spell that charge up everytime you kill someone, but if you die, you will loose all its strength and have to start over. '

Please, remember the reason why I submitted the idea of Aura of Pain in the first place. I am not of the opinion that Anti-Paladins are weak or underpowered in any way. But what I do feel is that they are too frustrating to play with, and thus become the victims of feelings of discouragement or even a tendency to rage-delete on the part of their players much too easily. It is for that reason that I suggested Aura of Pain - so that Anti-Paladins could become a little more infamous in direct physical combat. As I am suggesting it the purpose of Aura of Pain is thus not to make the Anti-Paladin class more powerful, but instead to make them less frustrating to play with.

If the efficiency of Aura of Pain would become subjective to the number and type of kills the player has managed to gather in the same way the power of an unholy weapon is, and thus would fall back to its default settings each time the Anti-Paladin is defeated, it would do the exact opposite of what I would like to see it do. Namely, it would make the Anti-Paladin even more frustrating because their players would have even *more* to lose with every death than already is the case.


' We dont want to A-P to be able to reflect back all the damage all the time, do we? '

Don't worry. This never was the idea behind Aura of Pain at all. The spell would only be there to enhance the Anti-Paladin defenses a bit in a reasonable way and add some interesting and suitable IC-funk to the class while doing it.


' so it would be up to the Imms to balance things out if the idea is to their liking. '

Pretty much, yes.

Thats why I put this as an option.

"Lets have it based on kills, and not as a permanent spell."

Then you would not loose its benefits by dying, and it would work more like the controls for the weapon, and all you have to do is put the spell back up. This shouldnt add to their frustration and just make them a little more powerful. But in that case they might have to tone down the weapons charges a little.

I'm not sure that an anti-paladin would have a spell like "aura of pain", as you are describing it, but I do see where you're coming from with the problems associated with the sleep spell. A lot of an anti-paladins power is derived from it, and the fact that it is a second-rate version of what the necromancers have sort of looks like an issue to me. The new skills have not changed this, IMHO, but they do present a good precedent for a better way to handle sleep.

How about a skill such as, say, "skullsmash" that knocks foes out?
I don't see this as being a major problem since warriors, thieves, *and* assassins all have a method, and anti-paladins are more oriented towards pure aggression than any of them. Since sleep currently lasts about, say, 6-8 hours (below hero at least) I think it wouldn't be unreasonable to have a skill that is comparable to blackjack, although perhaps slightly less successful than this. You could make the success rate dependent on dex, and the duration affected by strength, in a nod to both the "quick" apals and the "strong" apals.

I don't feel it's terribly imbalanced given that most people who are trying can see an anti-paladin incoming, unlike a thief, and cranial does the same thing as well as having benefits in actual combat. On the other hand, it's also true that if an anti-paladin could more reliably sleep a foe, they'd be able to do the multiple-plague thing without much fear. On the other other hand, though, as I've heard puts so simply before, when lag isn't involved it's a matter of the enemy flees and quaffs teleport... so maybe I just have no idea :)

We can make the skill unique though by having it work only on people not in combat, and having it do some damage even when successful.


SKULLSMASH SKULL SMASH

syntax "skullsmash"

Masters of brutality and cruel strikes, an anti-paladin wielding a mace can attempt to smash an opponent's skull in with a powerful blow. If successful, it renders them unconscious for a period of time as well as doing some damage. It can only be done to initiate combat, and a victim so injured will be too wary to be struck again by it for a while afterwards.

What do you think?

your idea and mine are basically two ways down the same road. But from what you've told us, I'd say the difference between Skullsmash and Aura of Pain would be that Skullsmash is utility-based (It shows you are a dedicated thiefplayer.) while Aura of Pain would be more offensive-based as it uses would only become obvious in situations that involve direct and open combat situations.

I'd say that Skullsmash too seems to be well within the mindset of the Anti-Paladin class and would definately help with giving an A-P a more reliable first strike capability than the Sleep spell does. On top of that, it would also be helpful in certain situations where the A-P finds himself/herself outnumbered, unlike the Sleep spell which is too unreliable to make the attempt at such tactics worthwile. All in all, I think Skullsmash wouldn't be unlike an Anti-Paladin version of the Blackjack skill really.

The problem I see with this however is that this second aspect of Skullsmash, namely the ability to knock out players and thus giving an Anti-Paladin the potential to scatter an opposing gang, collides greatly with the reason Anti-Paladins were given the Teleport spell. Its uses and its effects seem a bit too subtle for a class which firmly stands with one leg into the brute physical departement. The utility/support/cunning aspect of the Anti-Paladin should in my opinion mostly come from the magic spells, covering everything from protection to means of escape to the ability to cause direct extra damage to the opponent. The sheer brutality and psychotic view on life of the Anti-Paladin class are best translated to the outside world by their customized and unique physical skills, such as Lashes of the Slave, Faceslash, Crippling Strike and Vault.

That's why I would prefer Aura of Pain myself. It can greatly add to the insidious black magic part of the Anti-Paladin's arsenal, and it would also make them a little bit more dangerous and resilient in direct physical combat, as a player would expect from a knight-type class. And if need be, the advantages of the spell can be compensated for in a great many ways as the IMMs would see fit as they begin considering the balance issues.

That Skullsmash idea sounds like a pretty damn interesting something for the high(er) ranks of the Push path though. But that's off-topic, I guess.

> But from what you've told us, I'd say the difference between
>Skullsmash and Aura of Pain would be that Skullsmash is
>utility-based (It shows you are a dedicated thiefplayer.)

I'm not, although I do better with stealth-based classes.


>All in all, I think Skullsmash wouldn't be unlike an
>Anti-Paladin version of the Blackjack skill really.

That's true, but then, cleave isn't unlike an anti-paladin
version of the backstab ability. There is a precedent here.


>The problem I see with this however is that this second aspect
>of Skullsmash, namely the ability to knock out players and
>thus giving an Anti-Paladin the potential to scatter an
>opposing gang, collides greatly with the reason Anti-Paladins
>were given the Teleport spell.

Not really. I think anti-paladins learned teleport as a bail-me-out spell, as which it does quite well. They can already scatter groups with the best of them, given that they have charge of the morosa, and their area damage spells are nothing less than impressive.


>Its uses and its effects seem
>a bit too subtle for a class which firmly stands with one leg
>into the brute physical departement.

Here, I think you and I differ on what the focus of an anti-paladin is. They are very much *offensive* oriented, but not entirely brute force. That's why they have sleep, and all the maladictions to go with it, which in some ways put a necromancer's maladictions to shame (deafen and worldbind are staggeringly strong, and they certainly are best used with sleep when possible). That their *skills* reflect brute force is a good point, and that's why I suggested "skullsmash" because frankly that is pretty much brute force.


>The utility/support/cunning aspect of the Anti-Paladin should in
>my opinion mostly come from the magic spells, covering
>everything from protection to means of escape to the ability
>to cause direct extra damage to the opponent.

I don't see any particular reason for this. In fact, thinking expressly in terms of what an anti-paladin guildmaster would think, I imagine they'd rather have something more reliable than sleep, don't you? Even a dark-elf antipaladin would probably get more use out of skullsmash, and let's face it, there are a lot more fire giant an duergar anti-paladins out there who would just LOVE to do this.


>That's why I would prefer Aura of Pain myself. It can greatly
>add to the insidious black magic part of the Anti-Paladin's
>arsenal, and it would also make them a little bit more
>dangerous and resilient in direct physical combat, as a player
>would expect from a knight-type class.

My own ideal version of the anti-paladin class would have their spells all do maladictive and utility-based things, saving their skills for the actual harm (although fireball and iceball could
probably stay). These skills can vary as to strength and dex, fitting the different races. As things happen, we've moved closer towards this, and we may yet move closer as power word spells are probably going to take the place of something they now have.

' That's true, but then, cleave isn't unlike an anti-paladin
version of the backstab ability. There is a precedent here. '

I personally wouldn't go as far as considering Cleave to be related to the backstab still. Cleave is an opening skill which can cause a potential side-effect to the target, in the same manner as quite a few other skills of other physical classes can do, and most notably those of the warrior weapon specs. I thus don't think you can call Cleave a precedent because of this, but more the Anti-Paladin variant of a sword/axe spec so to speak. The ranks at which Anti-Paladins actually recieve their new weaponskills (such as Faceslash and Lashes of the Slave, which were designed to be alternatives to Cleave) suggests this even further as they largely fall on the same ranks as the various specs of the warrior class do. And I personally don't believe much in coincidence and randomness there where IMMs were known to be involved. ;-)


' Not really. I think anti-paladins learned teleport as a bail-me-out spell, as which it does quite well. They can already scatter groups with the best of them, given that they have charge of the morosa, and their area damage spells are nothing less than impressive. '

I don't understand - if you already think that highly of the A-P ability to scatter groups as it is now, then why exactly are you suggesting that they recieve yet another skill capable of performing the very same thing? Aura of Pain from its part wouldn't be about scattering groups, but to make the Anti-Paladin a bit more infamous in direct open combat, both when fighting one opponent or when under attack by multiple opponents. They could really use it.

By the way, remember that Charge of the Morosa for example needs to meet certain noteable conditions for it to work at its best (having Aura of Despair up isn't always just one big joyride for an A-P), there where your Skullsmash skill on the other would be working at an unchanged efficiency regardless of circumstance. In other words, Charge of the Morosa definately comes with its drawbacks even though it's quite useful in many situations. Skullsmash on the other hand, in being a Blackjack clone, doesn't seem to have any of these drawbacks which raises a few balance issues in my opinion, and creates the risk that it will render Charge of the Morosa, a much more Anti-Paladin'esque type of skill, second-rate or underused.

As for the three (fine, four) A-P elemental attackpells, I'm in agreement with you.


' (deafen and worldbind are staggeringly strong, and they certainly are best used with sleep when possible). '

Yep. Aura of Pain would basically have the same spirit as these spells by the way. Sinister, powerful black magic used to enhance the chances of the Anti-Paladin or, if you like, reduce the chances of the opponent. It would just work a little bit more indirect.


' That their *skills* reflect brute force is a good point, and that's why I suggested "skullsmash" because frankly that is pretty much brute force. '

Where is the presumed difference between our views on how an Anti-Paladin works then, exactly? I told you, I too think that the brutality and the brute force should mainly come from their physical attacks, and that the support and evasive aspects should mainly come from their black magic. Aura of Pain would follow this view just as well by the way.

Well, while in principle your Skullsmash skill would seem to be brute force (the name of the skill itself strongly hints it actually), that doesn't take away that what you suggested is in its essence a knock-out attack. Knocking opponents out blackjack-style is more a subtle tactic for CF standards, not a brute force attack. That won't change just cause it'll do an EVISCERATE as it hits the target or because it has a name like 'Skullsmash'.


' I don't see any particular reason for this. In fact, thinking expressly in terms of what an anti-paladin guildmaster would think, I imagine they'd rather have something more reliable than sleep, don't you? Even a dark-elf antipaladin would probably get more use out of skullsmash, and let's face it, there are a lot more fire giant an duergar anti-paladins out there who would just LOVE to do this. '

There truly is no doubt that something more reliable than the sleep spell would be very welcome among all Anti-Paladin players, myself certainly included, but before going further into that subject I'm going to wait and see what the promised new Power Words will be capable of doing. As I've stated in my original post, I wouldn't be surprised if the upcoming Power Words ment to replace the Necromancer spellset turn out to actually deal with that problem already. But for now, I think we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

As for the Fire Giant and Duergar remark, Fire Giants and Duergars are already the two races that have so far enjoyed the most benefits of the Anti-Paladin skillset. There are six, count them, six other Anti-Paladin races out there that in my opinion deserve to be thrown a bone far more than they are. I've been playing for about 2 years now and I'm still waiting to see the first Arial A-P hero. Fire Giant and Duergar A-P at hero ranks I've already seen quite a few times.

RP wise I think we're at too much of a cranial here. I realise its not a lagging skill but the idea of using cranial to open combat is you often can knock them out with it.

An Anti-paladin doing this would more likely go for the 'lets see if his skull will cave-in' approach if your going for brute force. Personally I believe their cruel and malevolant nature would be more for the 'lets take them down with this here sleep spell and let them suffer a while'. Lets keep in mind that while brute force is a means, cruel and effective torture would be the ends. Thats why skill like cleave are imployed because it gives them the option of going for a purely brutish attack over using their powerful utilities. This would simply be another cleave with a knock-out instead of insta-kill. Sorry if I trivialised it too much, but I do feel its to closely related to cranial and blackjack. I'm still stubbornly sticking to my idea of giving AP's a small selection of aura's to use.


GinGa.