I just hit the 100 hour mark and don't have basic empowerment... I do mean Basic empowerment. I am not talking about having "A" shaman path or multiple...

Before you ask.

I wrote 4 notes to the imm's who's sphere I picked.

The first contained a long story of my characters adventure to find him. I spent days creating something...It was very roleplayish and I thought aligned with the imm. Granted I've never talked to this imm so I had no clue, it was my best guess. It also asked what is a valid time to find him.

I think they did respond, but didn't give me a specific meeting time which I was looking for.

Wrote 3 more notes asking for a time. No response.

After no response I asked another imm if I could change spheres. That imm said try one more time and email them. I did, no email though.

No response.

I log in on a random day. They are on. 2.5 hours sitting in their shrine watching em chat with other people(I'm at work/working) I have to get back to work and attend meetings. Keep in mind I was in work meetings the whole time, some I can just appear to be there, others I need to actually be there. Stayed logged in just with the hopes of connecting with the imm.

No luck.

That put me somewhere around 55-60 hours on this character.

More time goes by.

I find another imm who I try to get connected with and maybe somehow get things moving. The imm is at least nice/fun enough to have some basic roleplay chats with me an send me on a quest. Which in itself was even more frustrating since they could of at least done basic empowerment. The quest could of given me a path.

However, I am currently sitting at my 101 hour mark on my character. Going by what I've experienced with past empowerment based characters I wouldn't doubt I will tally up another 30-40 hours before we cross paths again. That's assuming we cross paths since I tend to play during off hours for the mud.

FYI I don't hold anything against people due to having a hard time connecting. We are all just trying to have fun playing a game after all.

I do have to ask, does this system work?

I played 5 paladins in a row with hopes of experiences or trying out all of the different virtues. It was a nightmare... It didn't happen. Paladin 1 was trash, first character in 25 years. Paladin 2 was a provincial, Paladin 3 was a provincial, paladin 4 was provost and paladin 5 was a provincial. I don't make that statement as a bragging point(though yes it is sad I played 5 paladins in a row), but as a point that I do try to put some effort into the characters I play and help the game. My experience with those characters wasn't as bad, but still instilled high levels of frustrations with trying to run into chosen imm.

I can't possibly fathom experiencing 1 shaman path right now with the system and how it's going so far. Hope this doesn't sound whiney but its just what I have experienced right now. Being 100 hours into a character and still not having empowerment is just down right broken.

I also don't really understand why empowerment exists now. I don't understand why a shaman/paladin player can't just pick a path/virtue like warriors do and the 2nd or 3rd can be give by imm through quests/interactions.

The best part of this is I didn't realize how annoyed I was until proof reading this.

As a casual player this is why I stay away from empowerment.

The system has been improved, and having a viable character without empowerment is a boon. But let's face it, the communer/empowerment system was designed with an assumption of 100+ players online, providing for many more RP/PK opportunities. An explicit goal of empowerment was to enforce/encourage roleplaying. Given what the game was before empowerment existed, and the RP atmosphere now, I am 100% certain that this justification for manual empowerment is no longer valid.

The times are always changing, and CF has trouble keeping up. Almost every idea takes imm consensus and a coder. I don't look for miracles here.

is to find a better game or hobby to put your time into. I discovered CF as a teenager 16+ years ago, and it was a much different entity back then. Hundreds of people were online at once, and it was the best thing around as far as roleplay, immersion, and PK were concerned. Now the playerbase has dwindled down to mainly veteran players, and the ability to compete is gatekept by a -massive- time investment that is required to learn areas, mechanics, items, and gameplay. Sprinkle on the drudge of skill spamming, regearing, empowerment, xp mining for edges, and cabal related shenanigans, and you've got yourself a huge time sink before the "fun" happens.

Some of you love everything I've listed above, and some of you just tolerate it. It's cool, it's why CF still has players. The majority of adults are going to be working a 40 hour week, have a family, children, and other hobbies. CF really is a wonderful and unique thing, but its just not something most people can swing due to the time require to play a character. Its not going to change, so it's up to you to decide if you're getting enough "fun" out of CF for the time you're spending on it

@Dref - I think the response to your post would have been a lot more fruitful / productive had you not posted from an active character. Reading these exchanges make me feel IC/OOC awkward. It's a bit of a self-destruction/self-character assassination thread (though clearly you did not intend it to be).

Edited - P.S. I guess Java said largely the same thing.

I'm more than happy to share my thoughts on this, but I will not discuss an active character.

=w=

1: Keep in mind what I am ultimately trying to create is "not" a discussion about "my specific character" or any "specific imm".

It's a discussion about the empowerment process and me sharing what I experienced with this character which I found both odd and frustrating. Those same sentiments have persisted through all empowerment classes I've played.

But it isn't flattering.

If you want to have a conversation that isn't about your current character, stop posting as a current character.

I'll chime in to say even though you have a valid point a lot of the potential discussion you seek will not take place because you posted and continue to post as an active character. I'm pretty sure in the past they have just denied people for it if they're doing it willingly, outing themselves to discuss IC things on forums that is.

To me it seems like it is the early game that is key for this. When you roll up, things go so fast, levels, skills, pk....everything comes super fast and the first 50ish hours gets you a long way.

For empowerment characters, if nothing for the religion gets going in that time period, it can feel a lot like it is holding you back in the character progression, when it should be something that is moving you forward. I get that imms can't be johnny on the spot and be at your beck and call, but I can also see the frustration for a empowerment character.


What I wonder, is if there could be a system in place just to get things moving. One where any imm can fill the role, but not be a process where you have imm X talking about anything for the religion of imm Y, so that wires don't get crossed. Maybe something where they could just acknowledge things like a role that works, sphere that fits, and not being an asshat, and give a basic empowerment with a very clear approach that shows this is just the start, you need to pursue the real meat of things still. This could also be a time where they could be gently told if an Imm is hit and miss lately, or they aren't going to jive with your role most likely, or anything like that, so that at 15 hours a char can learn they are on a hard row to hoe, instead of realizing it at 100 hours.

I like the empowerment process, even when I do get frustrated, but, in a way to me that is a lot like IRL faith as well. But....I could see some ways where this game might help alleviate threads like this one.

I think something similar to role checks, but with a slight addition for empowerment classes where a general "you are a religious soul" sort of nod could go a long way.

Switching religions isn't a thing that gets you immediate new empowerment from a new immortal.

If anything, it sets HIGHER expectations AND sets you back. Add in that your sphere probably doesn't match the new immortal.

From my understanding looking at your character's history - you attempted one religion, moved to another, and the new religion immediately gave you a quest that could lead to empowerment.

Also, Empowerment is optional. You just won't get shaman paths and the like for not being empowered. BEFORE this, you wouldn't be able to access any supplications above level 11.

I'd have more empathy if you didn't expect instant empowerment and a path when switching religions. For that reason, I absolutely disagree with you on broken'ness.

Otherwise, an easy option so you can avoid this frustration, is to not play an empowerment class.

-Ish

Perhaps you missed the massive time dump between 2 different attempts?

One was around 55-60 hours, the second was 45-40 hours. There was no instant expectation, though I guess I could understand that based on how it was written.


The switching religions thing has to due with the imm just not being there over a 1.5 month period. That is a long time. Its not about any gameplay aspect other then an imm not being available. To me as the player it is weird to be penalized for someone on the imm side not being available. I am not judging anyone for that... people are busy.


Yes you are right...
"Otherwise, an easy option so you can avoid this frustration, is to not play an empowerment class." The easy option is just to not play the game. That is what you just said and it seems so wrong... You need to think about what you just said there.

There is a flaw in the system. I am not knocking you or any of the individuals who try to create the fun. It just doesn't seem to work.

I have more or less given up on it. It's taking up too much time and has ruined what should of been fun. I was hoping to start a discussion on how to fix it.

You seem to miss the point that its just not working, but I wager the hard headedness of your response is that you don't know how to fix it since it would require massive code work.

I can make suggestions that would help, but I feel like you wouldn't actually listen.

It'll be more interesting to see if people chime in and say yeah its great as is, or please fix it...

Again, you switched religions and are complaining that you didn't immediately get benefits.

If your complaint is **solely** "My first religion attempt didn't work out, we couldn't get in touch" - you could have stopped there. You didn't. You tried to combined it with the time spent **after** you told your original immortal that you weren't going to follow them anymore.

So instead of purposefully confusing it to make it sound worse than it is, let's make it honest:

1) You DID have difficulty reaching your immortal for 49 hours.
2) At 50 hours in you decided to tell your immortal you weren't following them anymore.
3) At near 90 hours in you decided to follow a new immortal.

Your sole valid complaint, as I see it, is number 1.
2 and after... Nope. Switching religions isn't meant to be easy, non-sphere followers don't get as smooth a life as sphere followers, and a second religion isn't likely to give you the same benefits at the same speed as your first generally would. You had 40 hours subsequent to abandoning your first religion that you could have pursued any other, but didn't till a later point. So I don't include that time in your "broken" scheme.

Keep your complaint to 1 and just focus on "It took me 50 hours to get in touch with my immortal" and you've at least got something I can somewhat empathize with.

You flat out said "Which in itself was even more frustrating since they could of at least done basic empowerment. The quest could of given me a path.". You definitely had expectations that suddenly switching religions should be just as easy as if it was your first one.

I don't mind a critique of "I don't like having to wait 50 hours to meet my immortal". I do mind mixing other things in there.

Also, I think it was a terrible idea for you to post this with your character's name. A very bad idea.

Edited to add: I also deleted a post because it appears you missed the anonymous click button. You can repost it, just be careful what name you do it with.

Yes you are right.

1) You DID have difficulty reaching your immortal for 49 hours.
2) At 50 hours in you decided to tell your immortal you weren't following them anymore.

These are my primary complaints. Its also not me trying to #### on anyone so you need to understand that. Its a challenge in the game that is frustrating. Its expected and understandable but I think there are ways to fix it. I will repost my suggestion. Thanks I forgot to fill in the name when posting.

I am not trying to create empathy, what I am trying to create is a discussion on an aspect of the game and suggest ways to perhaps fix it and make it more enjoyable for everyone. I was trying to recreate what I went through but cant recall all of the details.

Again its not a knock on any specific people because I recognize that even the imm I couldn't entirely connect with was still trying and its appreciated.

Try not to read too hard into things people type, specially me at this hour:P


2) and 3) At near 90 hours in you decided to follow a new immortal.
I had actually given up on empowerment because I had no idea where to place the character. I think most people just delete and start over. I dislike that idea and hate to see my casual in game friends that I don't really know but have spent a few hours with vanish. The change to follow the newn imm sorta seemed to fit into the basic's of my character given the cabal and goals of the imms religion. TBH I never even looked at his helpful until the messages on the main page, don't think I ever saw him before.


You flat out said "Which in itself was even more frustrating since they could of at least done basic empowerment. The quest could of given me a path.". You definitely had expectations that suddenly switching religions should be just as easy as if it was your first one.

I think you are reading too much into that, but let me explain

Yes this was frustrating... Here is why. 1: We talked for a while about the imms religion which is usually fun and in this case was. A quest was given. It was weird that basic empowerment wasn't given. Why do I find it weird... Basic empowerment doesn't really do a whole lot. Its just a bit of extra healing and +1 spell level. Its just basic empowerment and seems fitting for taking the time to 1: find the shrine and 2:Doing some small roleplay with the imm.

The quest is about the shaman path. That seems fine and normal to me. What instilled the frustration is that I me as the player I midly expect that I'll be going through another period of waiting on trying to reconnect with the imm. Pro's and cons of playing a game with a global player base...

I see your point though and I hope you somewhat understand mine as a player.

Keep your complaint to 1 and just focus on "It took me 50 hours to get in touch with my immortal" and you've at least got something I can somewhat empathize with.
This is ultimately what I am trying to talk about and discuss with you and everyone else. I don't have hard feelings against anyone on the imm staff. Its just something I think could be fixed. I will post it in as a suggestion again. Its not about empathy its about talking about a problem and maybe finding a fun solution.

Thanks for deleting the miss named one!

It is hard to run into other people when you have a game that has players stretched across the world in different time zones.

I tend to play at off peak hours. On the west coast and it seems like a lot of you are on the east coast.

My suggestion is to allow imms to fill in for other imms.

A messenger from Panmorne army has arrived and says kneel so I can bonk you on the head!
A group of streakers has arrived from Whiysdans party, you are encouraged to join.
An librarian from the Elysium has arrive to speak with you because Ishuli is too busy dealing with an ass hat on the forum!

I am sure you guys can come up with something more fitting,...

What I am getting at is you guys filling in for each other to get the basics started for people. I wager some religions might be a challenge but many won't be and again we are talking about basic empowerment and maybe even path's/virtues depending on the substitute and what you guys find acceptable. I know some religions are harder then others. We are talking about just getting things started.

I would assume that a few of you imms would actually have a lot of fun doing this since it would give you a fun chance to break out of your normal roleplay routine.

There are a few new imms and it would be a great way for them to get started with having their own religion. Consider it training!

Any interactions from the substitute can be passed on by note, player notes, email or whatever. I am sure you guys can figure it out.

Religions are a nuanced thing. Your character should be learning and developing that relationship from the jump. Having a fill-in Imm empower means you don't get that actual intro, that real discussion and development.

That first conversation is your first introduction to your religion. It almost always comes with some discussion and some tasks to enhance your understanding of that religion.

It seems to me like you're looking at religions and empowerment as a purely mechanical thing, but that isn't waht it's about. Empowerment characters, by design, are roleplay intensive. You need to be part of a religion.

What is the solution then?

Is the solution to just wait...wait and wait more, how many hours are acceptable? Go play a different character or game? Do you game the system? It feels that way and shouldn't. For me it is to delete the character, reroll. Chose new imm and hope we can connect. IF NOT, rinse and repeat process. To recap my issue or what I find odd/challenging is being able to actually connect with that imm. Its not a fault of either party, we just play at different times.

"Religions are a nuanced thing. Your character should be learning and developing that relationship from the jump. Having a fill-in Imm empower means you don't get that actual intro, that real discussion and development."

You are right here, but... The fill in imms should be able to understand and fulfill the idea of that religion they fill in for. Its not that complicated and the basics empowerment and first path/virtue shouldn't be. Progressing to a second or third path/virtue and tattoo could be though.

Think about for an example Christianity. There are multiple pastors/preachers churches teaching from the book of Christ. Catholicism Or Islam etc..insert real world religion "here" The followers don't go to 1 single place or are taught by 1 specific person. That business model would not work because they cant service their patrons 24 7 due to having to sleep, eat and poop periodically so others have to stand in (if you didn't know religions are a business).


So here is a spin on the idea. That idea being that the player doesn't have to hunt down "1" specific person. Instead they can have initial contact with a group of imms who represent a larger broad area of spheres with common goals.

1A: As an example: Put Panmorne and Nalasul into a group of spheres related to war/combat. Merge their current ones etc.. Put Azorinne and Einoh into a group related or aligned with "goodiiness" etc etc.. EVIl imms with evil imms... If it could be groups of 3 imms it would be more ideal...

1B: Player prays for the 2-3 imms at same time. Whoever is there or not busy responds and starts process. Gives empowerment and virtue/path

2: Getting second virtue/path would involve speaking with the other imm(s), Then the third imm. Or some random quest contrived by the two imms.

I personally don't see how you the imms even sustain the energy with this crazy 1 on 1 system. It ahs to be ####ed up draining...


"It seems to me like you're looking at religions and empowerment as a purely mechanical thing, but that isn't what it's about. Empowerment characters, by design, are roleplay intensive. You need to be part of a religion."

You are wrong or miss understanding what what I am stating...

I couldn't get that whole chain of what you just said (all 3 sentences/bullet points from your post) started. The comments and things I bring up are my experience. My comments are all about allowing people to more easily connect with "SOMEONE" to get those things started in game. After 50 hours of trying, 5 notes I couldn't even connect with the imm I chose. THAT challenge makes it impossible for what you wrote impossible to take place.

FYI I think what you wrote about the current gameplay behind religion is correct. It's just a bitch to get it going... trying to repeat myself as much as possible.

TBH though there is also a part of me that wish it was just gone and I could chose things at will as a warrior does...

You said you played 5 straight paladins. What was the empowerment experience with them? I'd say in general, empowerment works out pretty well as-is. But ultimately, given the nature of empowerment and religions, it will always rely on two people (the player and the Imm) having sync'd times. I just don't see a feasible way of getting around it, without ruining the positive aspects of religion.


What I would say, is that the first religion talk is probably the most important one. That's the foundation that everything else builds off of. Ishuli may approve/reject a book during that first meeting. Azorinne may hear your Vow that first time. Panmorne's going to ask what your war is actually about.

And if you're off the mark, they give you guidance to get back on track. You can't do that with a "fill in" Imm, because.. that fill-in Imm isn't really in a position to make those decisions.

I'd be much more on board with a fill-in Imm providing an empowerment bump, Shaman paths, or Virtues than I would be with them handling the initial empowerment talk. That talk shapes the the entire relationship between Imm/follower.


I also don't like the idea of "merging" religions, because variety is nice.. and more importantly, from the Imm perspective, who wants to tag along with someone else's religion idea? They're playing a character too, if we take that freedom away from them, I'd bet you would have far fewer Imms running religions period.

"You said you played 5 straight paladins. What was the empowerment experience with them? I'd say in general, empowerment works out pretty well as-is. But ultimately, given the nature of empowerment and religions, it will always rely on two people (the player and the Imm) having sync'd times. I just don't see a feasible way of getting around it, without ruining the positive aspects of religion."

Worse and better... It's always been hit and miss. There is a core time on the mud. Nothing entirely wrong with it and its nothing new in most games I've ever played.

My ability to match that core time has been hit and miss. Past experiences weren't entirely different.

What I notice is people gravitate towards an active imm, or an imm that they know is around when they are. That is basically what I did with 4 of the 5 paladins. It's weird to game the system that way.

Trying new imms is interesting. Ones with posted play times are always easier...