I think it's worth having a real conversation about good-aligned PCs killing good NPCs, and the consequences of that.

I will start by saying I agree that for years, it was entirely ignored to the detriment of RP.. it was at the point where it simply didn't make sense. A good person should never mow down a bunch of innocent people (even if they're aggressive), without showing any kind of remorse.

But I think we've taken a step too far in the other direction.

I think good PCs killing good NPCs falls into a few different categories, and ech one of them should be treated differently.
1. Good PC intentionally killing good NPC.
2. Good PC accidentally (but through their own fault) killing good NPC.
3. Good PC killing a good NPC through no fault of their own.

Here's my opinion on how those three categories should be handled:

#1 is pretty clear-cut. That would need some really significant justification to be acceptable. Alignment-dock or some heavy redemption efforts would absolutely be required. That's a very bad thing. I'd go so far as to say this could be an auto-uninduct from Fort, even. This should be a very hard road to come back from - that said, I think this is extremely rare.

#2 should absolutely result in that good PC feeling guilt, seeking redemption and trying to "atone" for their mistake. This is how most good NPC kills are handled, and when it happens (ie, you kill an elven "boy", instead of the dark-elf necromancer "Boyardee"), they should respond appropriately. If they don't, Imms should step in and ensure that they do.

#3 is the point of contention. This would include mobs being shoved into goodies, aggro good mobs dying in one round, etc. Depending on role, most good PCs absolutely SHOULD feel some level of guilt and responsibility. But that should absolutely never be imposed by others. Think about how this would work out in real life - you wouldn't tell your friend that it was their fault and they should feel guilty when it wasn't. You'd tell them that it wasn't, and that they should be angry at who really was at fault not at themselves. This should absolutely never involve Imm/leader-mandated redemption arcs, or anything along those lines.

This isn't just because it's not necessaruy, but it's also absolutely terrible roleplay for most good-aligned PCs (be they mortal or Imm) to tell another good-aligned PC that they should feel guilty because someone else did something wrong. It is not good behavior to force someone to feel guilty and depressed for someone else's actions. It is not good behavior to tell someone that they should have predicted someone else's evil actions.

Think about it - you would absolutely applaud an evil player for making a good player feel guilty about something, wouldn't you? Because it's absolutely EVIL to make someone feel guilty about something they didn't do. Can we please stop pretending like it isn't?

https://imgur.com/a/1iDUZc4

What about Tribunal/Outlander/Village good PC's intentionally killing good PC's regularly, isn't that #1?

On #3, maybe a good PC shouldn't feel guilty about what they did, but they should probably still feel remorse for the innocent NPC that died, even if it was some sort of trap.

There are plenty of good people in real life that try to make other good people feel guilty about things out of their control. Why shouldn't it happen in CF?

I don't think it should prevent induction/promotion, but I could see it as valid RP, if that's the angle someone wants to take.

Shaming seems way less evil than actually hunting other good PC's like Tribunal/Outlander/Village might do.

1: we can just move past this one since its pretty much a universal agreement that its a bad choice

2: how often is there actually a REAL punishment involved with this? Unless something drastically changed over the last few years, there is generally an echo or something to the player and its not something the staff chases down

3: same as above, how often is there actually a REAL punishment for this? I am fairly certain that the level of investment any imm is willing to make for a super rare one off occurrence is at most an echo.

Now I think that something that should also be brought up is that when #2 or #3 happen with enough regularity that it gives the impression of it being #1. If you are mowing down good align mobs and then just donating 4 gold to Jaragh and praying Sorries for the whoopies as your "atonement" then it doesn't really count imo.

If a player is choosing a path of their redemption/sorrow and they opt to involve an imm into it then they also invite the opportunity for the imm to react as their immortal character would IC both for better or worse.

I've seen players refused induction for a LONG time for it (sometimes permanently). It's very common for them to be refused promotion and leader spots (that they otherwise would have gotten), even after going through a "redemption arc". And certain Imms have absolutely made it a habit of coming down and forcing a redemption arc (or extending it, if the player has already addressed it IC). That's the practice I'd like to see go away, in most cases.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter how often #3 happens. It's someone elses actions.. that's on them, not on you. You shouldn't be held responsible for someone else's evil decisions. Your actions? Absolutely.
As far as #2, I agree with you. If you keep making the same mistake, it's not a mistake anymore.

I will suggest that a GMK is very likely not the only reason a Fort app has not been inducted or a Maran/Acolyte has not been considered for leadership, but it is the hot-button issue that players love to hate from a mechanics standpoint. Goodies who are playing Fort, trying to play Fort, or in my religion should not kill other goodies. Accidents happen and the roleplay direction that it takes is situational, and I'm happy to handle it on a case by case basis and will be forever.

99% of the frustration predates Azorinne, so I hope you didn't think any of it was directed at you. I don't know if there's any understanding how you'd handle things like shove-kills, goodie guards getting one-rounded, lowbie goodie mobs assisting evils and other things that are really hard to prevent without either precognition or a strong understanding of where mobs are and how they'll behave (which you can really only learn by trial and error).

Eager to see though, because I don't think those situations have always been handled very well in the past.

I have to separate my last two experiences because Theorendus and Seskavil were night and day different but a few things point point out.

1) Theorendus was definitely being held back from leadership positioning because of a goodie kill (intentional, which we'll get to that) - Koorsgard flat out told me that was the case. It may be different now but it wasn't back then and that's not that long ago.

2) There should be something else I think viewed differently from #1-3. Mercy killings. There are two cases were I made an intentional effort that resulted in the death of a goodie and I was punished/reprimanded for both of them. The first, was killing the elf in the goblin settlement = if you don't know what I'm talking about, you should make sure you're not on a work computer and go look at probably one of the more nsfw mobs in the game that literally is begging to be killed (there are even dwarves in Mortorn with the same overall description effect but less grotesque). The second, I was trying to wake up a fellow Fortress member who had been spinebroken and in the lag to wake them up they got killed by my hit as the orcs assisted. Both times I was given a lot of flack in things that I think are completely valid from a RP stance. The same thing could stand for a tribunal killing a good criminal who broke the law or killed someone, or a villager killing a good mage doing evil things, or even a fortress having to kill an outlander sunwarden who is hunting paladins. There are countless examples in history and real life where the "good guy" needs to die. There are incredibly valid reasons why someone must be killed, alignment aside, and this is frankly Carrionfields and it is a bit frustrating to see how far this has gone down the drain. Azorinne followers? Absolutely. Acolytes? Definitely. Maran? The entire premise of a maran is they at war and war has a cost. Normal goodies? Leave them alone.

3) I think I stand with everyone else that mobs that assist that shouldn't (I had a "cloaked figure" level 5 goodie mob assist the arial city dark evil guards and die in one hit on Seskavil and you reprimanded me for it) or good guards that throw themselves at criminals instead of look the other way (come on, how many movies do we need to see where the good cop turns around to do the better good) is just a limitation on coding that is either outdated in the prior example or impossible for CF in the later.

I think above all else, the #1 case stated above was the golden rule and was a drastic change from times of old where people murdered anything for gear. #3 is obviously silly and needs to be removed and frankly #2 is so very gray and I feel that it needs to be evaluated less as an ultimatum for the entire cabal or good alignment in general (Azorinne's religion withstanding, you can run your followers how you see fit).

It's worth saying that I have no way of knowing WHAT goodie mob was killed unless I'm right there watching the situation, but I do know that it happened. Investigation is often warranted because people aren't always forthcoming when such things happen, and in many cases don't even notice/remember it happened. This is a thing that gets actively checked for anyone in Fortress, Fort pledges, and Az-faith people. To use Seskavil as an example, you might recall a discussion where Az mentioned being able to sense a goodly soul was killed, but not who. As for how you feel about the cost of the war of the Maran, I'm happy to address that IC with anyone who's curious, but it's NOT goodly lives.

If there is going to be a consequence, and you don't know what was done and the player doesn't either (I literally had to go through days of logs to find it because searching for it wasn't easy and if I remember right my character was blind from dirt kick when it happened), it just sounds like it should be something that wouldn't be relevant enough to punish. "I know the alarm went off but the video camera wasn't working and you don't remember it because you had tar in your eyes.... but you're guilty." Just seems off and its all because a single mob is coded wrong to assist. Again, intentions versus limitations on coding.

I also think in general cabal wars are something this game has really gone in the wrong direction on. I fondly remember a ton of different cabal wars across the 25 years of playing this game and when Outlanders wanted to go to war with the Fortress because I was going into the shadow plane to save my centaur kin, I was LITERALLY removed from the cabal to prevent the war. Not just demoted from leader but kicked from the cabal. All because "this might cause us to kill a goodie"! Forget the fact they've been hunting the paladins and dwarves and conjurers every day and have a nightreaver/etc. I still can't fathom what the hell the Imms were thinking and it has just ruined Fortress for me forever honestly.

That's how far this has gone. A cabal I've been a leader of several times over decades, that I used to love playing in, has been ruined to the point I'll never go back in its current state.

A player nuked a goodie mob as a good align character and didnt even care enough to know what it was? Its very much a two way street where the character should be aware of it and the player should also be able to defend said action if confronted about it.

The whole argument of being able to allow justified GMK for a good align character becomes irrelevant when players aren't aware of what mobs were killed and the situations that it occurred in. Also, unless its happening ALL the time, a player should quite easily be able to think back to the situation it happened in to explain the why if required.

Re: cabal wars, good Fort v good Outlander v good Rager v good no cabal is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. In all situations however, players should be making a conscious effort to avoid killing gold aura NPC and PC. The level of consequences that falls on each of the assorted flavors of good varies though.

I had a Fort character at the time. I was wondering why we didn't all just back you for the rescue and deal with the consequences. I was a new Squire so it didn't matter what I thought. Save good, let Outlanders be Outlanders? I guess not that time.

"It's worth saying that I have no way of knowing WHAT goodie mob was killed unless I'm right there watching the situation, but I do know that it happened"

The way you guys handle this is just a giant ####ing joke...

You knew exactly what happened with my character because someone told you. My character like the person who told everyone had no direct involvement with the death of a good npc.

Yet we get called out for it.

For some reason you and the mortal leader wanted to force some rp arc on me and other player.

I'll pass, no thanks. In the end you now have 1 less person playing cf...

I left the cabal and I have more or less left the game because I am not interested in being forced to do something I am not interested in. MY time to play video games is time I will spend playing and doing what I want.

I don't have time nor interest with it being railroaded into something which I see as flat out retarded and a giant waste of my time.

Incase people were wondering. 3 good players grouped, fighting 2 evil pc. 1 of the good players puts down a trap. That trap explodes when evil player walks into it. Trap explosion kills good npc. Neither of the 2 other good players were even aware of the trap.

Your player base dwindles because people tire of having their time wasted...

gr

My character is a great example of people being complete idiots and my getting screwed for doing nothing wrong.

It's long passed time the Fort puts the Baerinka mentality to bed. For good.

Pun fully intended.

Also, one of your points is really stupid.

I left the cabal and I have more or less left the game because I am not interested in being forced to do something I am not interested in. MY time to play video games is time I will spend playing and doing what I want.

I don't have time nor interest with it being railroaded into something which I see as flat out retarded and a giant waste of my time.

The game of CF is a living thing where other players are also playing so its not just as simple as a its my experience so I am going to #### on everything else. If you don't want to get wrapped up into the secondary effects of being good aligned just play evil.

Problem is there is a old conversation and then fairly recent stuff that goes on in game...

Maybe I wasn't clear with all of the comments, but coming at me as a player. Over something someone else did is ####ing stupid.

If another player kills a good align mob, don't go #### on me cause they did it... I'm not here to babysit someone else. Good #### on that player...

It shouldn't of been brought up with me and my character at all. Like I said I am not interested in being mr course corrector and policing the mud.


However Destuvious if you and the rest of the staff think my point is in fact stupid, then that might actually be part of whats wrong with the mud...


If its a big deal, then fix the stuff in code so good on good kills affect the players alignment. Start permanently subtracting it from their alignment based on player level vs mob level.

The game of CF is a living thing where other players are also playing so its not just as simple as a its my experience so I am going to #### on everything else. If you don't want to get wrapped up into the secondary effects of being good aligned just play evil.

Evil characters go through the same stupid stuff in empire...

Personally I don't care at this point though. I deleted my last character and you now have 1 less player.

Nt

There's a difference between forum lurking and logging into the game. Destuvius noted how he's four months late in responding to the thread.

That implies he has put his money where his mouth is.

He left forever like everyone one else who says that.

I've never needed to do such a redemption arc on a char and don't really have anything to add, so just giving a thumbs up to this good post!

Thank you for this post. I agree and think it turns fortress from a cabal about doing things into a cabal about NOT doing a specific thing - which is really NOT fun. Sort of like if Outlander got uninducted if they ever touched coins; this would take not using coins from a core part of the cabal to an unplayable burden.

The fact that some notable chars have accomplished this does not in my view make it appropriate to impose on everyone. Those chars should be recognized (for being lucky that a blade didn’t grief them really) but others shouldn’t be forced down this Eeyore rp path, and the cabal as a whole should be focused more broadly than just on not murdering good aura city guards that are protecting orcs.

I understand that mechanically, it's a bitch to get around this, and it does not feel 'fair' as a Fortress player, to have additional restrictions placed on your actions, that historically have not been present. There are some others currently in place as well, that many do not agree with... However I do feel this line from the Fortress help file, validates this specific policy:

"While the means and methods of each group differs, they both have the same singular goal of the absolute preservation of the Light."

It is also in line with other roleplaying games, such as seeking absolution or redemption, if committing grave sins - This specific one, in CF terms, is an easy one for the game to track/identify, and so the immortals to act upon. I haven't seen a great deal of immteraction taking place from the Fort imms, in about 100 hours in the cabal, so this one seems like a low hanging fruit for them to get involved?

I have not been forced into a redemption, so I'm not clear on the full punishment players are receiving for being on the receiving end of example #3 of killing good, if it is something which can be discussed OOC, perhaps detailing this would help.

ie are the individuals being demoted to squire, powers removed, if communer, empowerment revoked, etc.

If it is more roleplaying contrition, and being asked to perform "penance" in some form, it makes sense to me, but I'll wait and see if we can discuss the details of the punishments further.

First, I'm somewhat familiar with Fort dogma. And I agree with you - their focus is absolutely on protecting/preserving the Light in all ways. That also includes themselves.

Forcing someone good to feel guilt for someone else's actions is NOT preserving the Light. It is weakening it. Preserving the light would be building up that individual, rather than making them feel worse about themselves.

Again, I'm not advocating that Goods (or especially Forties) should be allowed to kill goodies at will. I'm mostly talking about those times where someone else's actions directly caused it.

1. I was a conjurer in the fort and kept killing my stupid archon or whatever on accident or visa versa... eventually booted right the f out... understandably so..


2. i had a mob just attack me... I got demoted from a acolyte back to scribe for like ever... eventually i leadered... so it is recoverable..



moral is as a goodie dont frag goodies. if you do expect your gods to smite you sorry they are gods.

For too long have we been ignoring this issue and never discussing it.

I think you can add more to the conversation than that Lhydia.

The easy way to look at it IMO, if the guards were PC chars, they would be made neutral/punished.

It's absolutely poor RP (not to mention immersion-breaking) to pretend like NPCs don't have free will and aren't responsible for their own decisions, while PCs are. The expectations (including alignment-based) should be consistent across players and mobs alike.

Some rascal with a gold aura just mowed em down.