I'be long been thinking that levels of imm exp have become too low. As players we were reassured that imm exp would increase as the potential for grinding edge points was reduced.

Instead, imm exp appears to be way down too. Looking at Aztezul's pbf just hammers that home, but even my better characters rarely make 200 imm exp these days. Even saying that makes me feel like I'm significantly overstating how much I get. And Aztezul appears to have been decently rp'd and very influential, with that influence being driven largely by his rp.

I'm not proposing we reward people with imm exp for writing about roles rather than actually role playing (role exp seems about right these days). I'm not blaming imms for not giving out more under the current system because when units of imm exp are as low as 50, its pretty much impossible for them to give what characters deserve, simply because of the strain on resource. (That doesn't mean no character gets what they deserve, but it does mean most don't, unless most deserve very little.)

So what am I suggesting?

Larger chunks of imm exp for:
A) snoops of good rp, even if that's from the afk record of tells,
B) rp that shows superior recognition of the roles of other characters. I was pretty impressed when someone rp'd something to me that showed they'd remembered a conversation we had a long time ago about something purely cosmetic in character terms.
C) pk bravery where it is consistent with character goals or role (as opposed to just suicidal playstyle in situations where that make little sense). Also don't confuse wading into big groups as being brave; it very much depends on the build. For example, my Imperial aerial sword spec with calming legacy, parry anything and seven winds edges, required more courage to fight elf-race sword specs with striking legacy, than he did large groups of foes.

It's capped on 15k, and there are ways to gain (of course, with a lot of efforts) up to 50k at least, maybe more. So, I've stopped looking at things almost completely after hitting 15k observe exp, and not motivated for a futher explorations except for the getting explore exp. Of course, there are some fun aspect of the explorations, but, for instance, I won't assemble a party to go to the Octagonal tower again, because I know this area for 100%. Otherwise, I would. And I would examine things - and maybe I would find something new, as happened.

So, my suggestion is at least to add 30k and 50-60k observe exp goals. Okay, if there is a deficite of EP must be in the game for some weird and twisted reason, it could be a small value, but even that would definitely make the explorations/observations way more fun and tempting.

A good example: xp for the rites. They used to be 500k. Then at least 250. Now, I see from pbfs, 100. That's just ridiculous.

You made the system. You set it up so people can get edges. You must want people to have some edges. You took away one major way of getting, and said that one of the other ways would increase. Instead, as someone else in this thread noted, they have decreased.

Rites were always a very major event, many hours with lots going on, and happy pretty rarely, and imm xp was given pretty well. Don't know why it's been on a steady decline but now giving 100xp to people who do it is silly. What is a better time and example of when it's appropriate? It's a core part of one of the oldest cabals (maybe oldest?) of the mud and exactly the kind of time to be more, not less, expressive with the xp.

Just one easy example, but if you look at pbfs and go back six months, one year, two years, three years, five years, it's obvious most imms are giving less - far less - and far less often. Exactly when imm xp became more important because of the removal of pk and general retrievals (unopposed) and all other ways but those now remaining were taken away.

Really don't understand the mindset of imms who think being stingy is good. This is a game. You should want people to enjoy. Be liberal. Err on the side of giving out. Nobody is saying go back to the time people would just get 1k for saying "howdy!", but give that 50 or 100 more often, and give more than just 50 or 100 when something like a rites goes on. You've swung too far the other way.

>Just one easy example, but if you look at pbfs and go back six
>months, one year, two years, three years, five years, it's
>obvious most imms are giving less - far less - and far less
>often. Exactly when imm xp became more important because of
>the removal of pk and general retrievals (unopposed) and all
>other ways but those now remaining were taken away.

Let us not forget the commerce XP change. To reduce that grind it went FROM EP every 1k up to 21k TO EP at 7.5k, 15k and 30k. Probably my favourite change this side of the year 2000. Epic troll.

Either that or he had incredible tolerance for repeating a goods sales run.

On a positive note, I may have seen signs (based on a sample of one) that things may be improving. For the first time in 3 years I saw an amount of imm exp that allows me to reach the first threshold for edge points before age death. Admittedly it required me to do risky stuff twice that I was lucky to survive (one of which I genuinely "knew" woulf get me killed and was astonished that it didn't), but in the last couple of years this seemed to get 50 even if you died but took your enemy out in the process.

So I'm hoping that others are seeimg similar things. Because I genuinely don't mind enemies having more edges... I'd like to see everyone with more.

Imms can't see everything all the time. As my post down below about my top accomplishments highlights. Those were moments that were truly epic and weren't even mentioned in my imm comments. You can't expect imms to know what's going on all the time and you also can't expect imms to give tons of xp for Inn events or snarky/fun comments on cb.

What IS too low are edge points over all. But that's a whole other thread to reanimate. I spent the last 100 hours hoping I'd turn old so i could take the one edge I desperately wanted in Scion.

I miss the days of broad customization for long lived and dedicated characters.

Just out of curiosity, what did you want to pick?

I think the fact that a level 7, 4 hour old character achieved more ImmXP than you have in your previous 10 characters combined proves that there is no issue with the doling out of ImmXP. You just need to LRN2RP. The below is purely MERIT based and NOTHING to do with who you know or, more importantly, who knows you. =) =)

PREMIUM HISTORY FOR Gilversplitz
Wed Dec 6 12:25:53 2017 by 'An Immortal' at level 7 (4 hrs):
An Immortal added 500 exp for: For a long and impromptu quest involving his beagle.

Experience from Immortals = 9230

It's what I've been talking about. 2017 year and now are very much different times. Now, you might have 300 hours and about 0 immexp (see Aztezul, who was extremely cool in RP/everything, judging by the comments on his death thread).

>I think the fact that a level 7, 4 hour old character
>achieved more ImmXP than you have in your previous 10
>characters combined proves that there is no issue with the
>doling out of ImmXP. You just need to LRN2RP. The below is
>purely MERIT based and NOTHING to do with who you know or,
>more importantly, who knows you. =) =)

Hey for the record I just came off a 3.5 year hiatus and I had no contact with anyone, immortal or otherwise. That sort of baseless mudslinging is pretty lame.

If you have accusations of an Immortal cheating or giving favors, please email the IMPS at imps@carrionfields.com


I was a Gilversplitz fan. Gilversplitz was never given any OOC affection, I never heard of anyone knowing him, or him knowing anyone.

Not all immortals give out the same amount of XP, and you'll find the rare "big clump" randomly. Sometimes this is due to involvement of an interaction, other times its due to a given Imm just being more liberal with the amount given. We try to tailor it all consistently, but that doesn't always happen.

If you think an imm is cheating, email imps, don't smear an otherwise innocent character. I'd rather the burden be on us than a player/character who hasn't done anything wrong.

Thanks

-Ish

ImmXP simply shouldn't count towards edges. Then it could be a better vehicle for random interactions - which there ought to be more of. The kind where the player could simply ignore and/or not even notice/care or someone more involved in that element gets an opportunity to emote/rp with eyes watching.

500, even if 2017 is way more than the common averages of 50. Not calling foul, but definitely not the standard.

I don't want to detract points from an already stingy as hell edge point system either though, but that could be easy enough to allocate into the other better automated systems, commerce, obs, explore, etc

Everything automated and fair to everyone. Because now it's a bit disheartening and demotivate when you try your best and do 101% of what you are able, and receive zero for that. Could just give more for some key events, or add more triggers. Stellar players will will receive extra edges, firms, virtues for RC wins and RP, but for the majority of the playerbase (me includes) it won't ever happen, so we are feeling unfairness (even though we know that immexp is being given in a fair way nowadays). But it's a door locked for regular players forever and without any chances that it will be changed (after 20+ years of playing it's not a speculation, it's a fact).

Is that when imms *reduced" the amount of automated edge points, they said they would increase imm exp to partially offset that.

But instead that reduced too.

I'm not blaming anyone here. I'm sure there are good reasons. But it was already a contraversial decision that I think probably was not backed by the majority (who like edge points), and it turned out to be even more extreme than described.

I've yet to hear a decent argument for why giving everyone a chunk of extra edgepoints every n levels would be bad, given that the original argument was all about the have-nots.

The have-nots will learn a lot faster if they can try lots of edges with each character than if they can't. And they won't be crippled if they make a bad choice or two with edge selection.

This is why I can't pick the edges I've planned, lol. And I thought something is not working. Poor me, wish I know earleir about the points decreasing! Would do everything differently. Oh well, a bit too late for the regrets, will have to win the game with what I have! :)

After all, if everyone have less edges, it's maybe not bad. Because when we had 20 edges, well... edges were not edges, but a regular permabuffs. I think normal amount is 2-3 top edges, plus 3-4 more cheap. I think it's achievable... though I've stuck on third and totally see no way of how to get the rest.

If everyone just had kick, the same stats, and we made a level playing field for hp, removing all those buffs that skills and better stats give, we'd have a more balanced game.

It would be a lot less fun though because
- less variety
- less replayability
- more predictable battles in terms of what your enemy will do.
-less customisation

These things are what keeps the game fresh. Does anyone believe that legacies should be removed because they are permabuffs? Legacies may be fewer than edges, but they are generally more of a game changer.

Edges that were crazy have gradually been nerfed (some to the point where I can't say for sure that they do anything at all), so they seem reasonably balanced, apart from one thing. That thing was some people not having many. But what we seem to have some is taken from those who had and from those who haven't.

It's a bit like increasing everyone's taxes, giving them nothing extra in return, and telling those whose taxes increased the least that things are better because other people's taxes increased by a lot more, closing the gap for them. They are still left with less to work with, regardless of whether their competition had been hit harder. It risks being a race to the bottom.

My character is well into maturity, and yet I would still love it if I had, for example, 30k observation exp as a challenge to work towards. It wouldn't be easy. I'd likely die trying to get it. But it would be a good challenge during quiet times, and the edge(s) I'd still pick are not game changers. I doubt an evemy could conclusively identify that I even had them, after seeing them in action.

I agree. Now they seems to be overpriced. I think you need to start a different thread about that, stretched goals like 30k obs, or even 50k obs sounds interesting, too. I'm positive 50k may be achieved. But what is more, it would give additional goals to the players who love to explore or when there are no enemies around.

I think the base attitude is wrong here.

RP for the sake of just fun RP. If immexp is given, then that's nice. But don't count on it. Set your expectation to never be rewarded, instead see your interaction with the other players as a reward.

That said, I do think that long lived special characters that increase the fun for everyone should be given cabal edges or even quest forms etc. But it shouldn't be the reason you go and RP.

The problem is that some players receive 0 xp for RP/immterraction/etc, while other players are receiving it. So, those who do not receive feels disappointment and that their efforts are pointless, even if they RP for the sake of RP, not immexp (my case, I gave up on it long ago, knowing my limits).

But you've got a thread going for several days with multiple posts to the contrary that you keep reanimating. The zombie horse died man. You can't reanimate zombies.

Umiron doesn't like edges, he has the keys.

Let it goooooooooo
Let it gooooooooooo
I am one with the wind and skyyyeeeeiiiii

Let it gooooooooo
Let it gooooooooo
You'll never hear me cryyyyyyyyyyyy

omg I can't get it out of my head ever

DO YOU WANT TO BUILD A SNOWMAN
COME ON LETS GO OUT AND PLAY

why why why

why do 3 year olds love frozen, it doesn't even have great music

I've sent two or three e-mails to imps@carrionfields.com - no answer at all

I had to poke you over discord to look on it, so, please, don't suggest dead communication channel

It was decreased a couple of years ago when some imms were boosting their favourites (or their own game characters).

I think edge points shall be completely removed from the immexp rewards, so no one would whine about the unfairness and favouritism.

Actually, favouritism is unavoidable if there are no mechanics that is fair to everyone (like explore, observe, etc).


So I personally think it's good that players are receiving so little of immexp. It makes the game more fair and transparent for everyone, and save imms from being accused of favouritism and shady games.

Maybe just give the edge points to everyone, but I'd still like to see rewards for actual rp (as opposed to writing about rp).

Maybe a combo of imm driven and player driven is the answer. Those with unfair advantage will get stuff if there's favouritism or ooc dealings, but those who rp well will also get it, just a bit later.

...is hardly ever a good idea in a game as this.

A typical CF player approaches his/her character as a project. Ergo, being able to render it further distinct or even unique from other characters is a (very) large appeal of CF.

Edges serve this purpose, and serve it well. They do need reintroducing in some capacity.

Is that they cause the pk (usually) style of a character to adapt over time, even if at hero.

New tactics can replace old ones, keeping a long lived character fresh.

Also (if you have points to spare) you can try out the odd unknown edge and see what it's like. Hard to bring yourself to do that though with a shortage of points.

>It was decreased a couple of years ago when some imms were
>boosting their favourites (or their own game characters).

If you want to levy a specific accusation please email us (IMPs), otherwise take that crap somewhere else or we will do it for you. Thanks.

I don't have proofs and it have nothing to do with the current immstaff. So many years have passed that it's impossible to recall now even names of the characters, but I remember discussions about some immchars PBFs who had 20+ edges thanks to the immexp. Then edgepoints were reworked. I don't have any quarrels with the current system, I think it works fine now, while players receive little immexp and every good character will be examined via PBF (which didn't happen so often many years ago). No need to be aggressive, I'm not a whiny conspiracy theorist or some toxic hater.

imms are absolutely great roleplayers and generally play a character for 300+ hours

so, no big surprise they'd earn, yes earn, notice and immexp

Keep in mind that when an Immortal plays a such a well-known characters it's usually tied to them and recognized later on. The 13 sub-30 orcs I might play from 1-3am and delete at 75 hours no-one pays attention to.

The sample we remember gets a little skewed.

But Aztezul's immexp shows that for even a star players it's barely possible nowadays. If he would be a raybaer follower, he would have 7-10k immexp now, a couple of extra gift edges and a few special quest spells :) So I'm totally fine that everyone receive a little of immexp nowadays, it makes the game more fair.

I'd say - just play, don't expect anything and do your best. No expectations - no disappointments. Or even expect that you won't ever receive a single point of immexp and game will be a lot more comfortable for you.

I've said for what seems like ten years now that the concept of immexp is great but the practice is negligent outside of 1 or 2 immortals. Every other year we see a push and imms reward for a couple weeks but then it again falls to the wayside.

Anyway, there's only a couple imms who have cheated. Andaren, Sebeok, and Nepenthe. And not on equal scale.

But at the same time, I multicharred to get a character of mine a shaman robe back around...99?

Sebeok was my favourite imm. How could he!
I was a sincere hater of raybaer and "her" followers, because they were receiving approximately 6-10k immexp and quest forms/spells/etc just because they were boosting her ego. It doesn't happens now, and I'm perfectly fine that no one receives it anymore (or when it happens, it is really well deserved and clearly seen via PBF). There is an advantage for me - due to my poor English, I can't compete with native English speakers, so I won't ever receive anything like this just because my ability to roleplay is very limited (not as much as Terpilans's and his other similar characters, though 😁🤦🏿‍♂️). Yet, I feel satisfied that we are (almost) equal with the native English speakers :) So the less immexp to the players, the more fair game is for me. Sorry for my cynical egoism, it's also partially a joke ;)

Nt

And your English won't be a problem :P, they use broken and simple Words so it's all good :P

This is why my giants almost always had a titles, empowerments and tattoos, while other characters mostly sucked :)

I'm not sure I have ever played against a more scared and conservative player as Aztezul. He makes the me's and Shaapa's of the world look like kamikaze pilots. As Leitha he would spend HOURS just sitting in Galadon shaking in his boots, until AT LEAST 2 of his goons would log on. As in, one goon was simply not enough. It had to be 2 or 3, including Imperials.

Just like the last 4 or 5 of his Necro's (seriously, he's been basically playing the same character for 2 years straight) he abused the protection of Tribunal, and the overwhelming leniency of Ishuli to turn the mummy quest into a by the books affair, while also risking very little in the process.

The IMM's, who aren't quite the idiots some of you think they are, are quite capable of noticing this as well. They generally aren't going to reward anyone who isn't risking something or really putting themselves on the line. You can get some of the more superficial rewards, like titles and the like, but the really cool stuff generally goes to OUTSTANDING play. Of which I generally don't qualify, just for those who think I'm talking about myself.

So, in summation. I'm glad Aztezul got to make the best thing he can. And I'm glad he was able to bring back Scion. Seriously, thanks for that because I plan on giving it a go sometime. But other than that, he was actually really really weak sauce. Like seriously boreing. And the irony of his grand design losing him his ganksquad, restricting his hours, and forcing his delete is one of the more sweet things this game has ever given me. ;)

gr

I'm the only person who played Necro after Necro after Necro in the last two years (all utter failures mind you). Who exactly do you think played Aztezul? I'm genuinely curious.

Lots of misinfo and pent-up anger in your post.

Leitha was awesome and never got the credit they deserved!

And I only know myself, who is playing necro after necro (mostly successful), and Aztezul wasn't me either. So I think it's a paranoia.

I enjoyed leitha, definitely my pk nemesis early on. I still feel stupid for offering myself up in that summon trap in Eil Shaeria but getting the kill on the elf and weakening you so you couldn’t loot me was a small victory. You definitely made group fights more interesting. The “praise the lost” thing (or whatever your line was) was even more annoying than “ever upward” though.

I’ll bypass the misinformation in your post and just say glwyn and enjoy scion. Morius has made it a far different experience than years past so approach it as a fresh take as opposed to chasing nostalgia.

But that someone would never be so cool about criticism.

Dammit, now I feel bad. Hmm... Not much to say but: Sorry for being a ####.

Hey, you had a Mummy and brought back a cabal, eh? That's pretty awesome no matter what anyone says.

I can see how that's a bit odd to say given I said in my death thread that it was my unspoken goal when I wrote the sphere deception role. But for me when I reflect on Aztezul there are a lot of events that I personally enjoyed more.

An unofficial ranking for the curious:

1) Building the New Order concept to create a cabal-within-a-cabal that basically did away with all the aspects of Trib that annoy me. Seeing a large number of folks buy into the concept was a lot of fun. We made Trib OP for awhile there.

2) Making Fort essentially back down from combat due to the law and basically outlining the disconnect between the Maran philosophy and the realities of the rest of the in game culture. Even moreso than that was demanding 500 gold payment from an Emperor to avoid war because a council member killed random trib shifter #2342 and actually getting it. It was really satisfying and all the ammo I needed to try and position Aztezul as a future Emperor (my fall back plan had Scion not been possible). Ultimately I feel like I used rp and in game events as leverage in both situations to great success. Special shout out to Sayra for the artwork of the "tithe" that followed.

3) Aztezul's friendship (or as close as a self-proclaimed god-king can have) with Sayra and the shenanigans that followed. I'm still hearing stories from people who thought something was going on in game that was just pure Sayraganda. It was masterful to watch the disinformation and it gave me a great cover for everything else.

4) Utterly stomping the life out of the Village because I hate that cabal with the rage of ten denied bemused's.

5) Scion.

It'll be a hard one to top. Hopefully I find the time again one day.

Best of luck out there.

Some command or tool to say: this guy is cool. Maybe even leave comments of their own which IMMs can review.

Could even have negative reviews too, so you get a feel for who is really having a positive impact for friend and foe alike.

You'd probably have to limit it though. Maybe only heros can do it and can only review another char once.

Those playing from a proxy can't do it and those playing from a proxy can't benefit from it.

Before I say anything else, my personal opinion is an increase in frequency rather than amount.

A lot of this has to do with immortal activity. More active immortals see more cool things and thus have the chance to reward more. Any given immortal can only watch so many characters at a time depending on what they’re doing themselves.

We have been somewhat low on immortal activity in the recent past (the holiday month of December plays into this). That activity is expected to increase. I think that’s the fix more than anything else. So I don’t mind a bit of blame there, we’re people too and the holidays like to steal us away as much as they do players :) .

As to your examples.
A – I already do this, I think others do too.
B – I already do this, I think others do too.
C – I’m not giving an imperial arial sword spec immxp for fighting an elf. No.

In terms of current characters, there are 8 with 1000immxp or more.
There are 18 or so with 500immxp or more.

All that said, I’m still of the mind that as immortal activity increases, this will naturally increase by frequency and that it won’t otherwise be an issue. If I’m eventually wrong, shame on me.

-Ish

I was more trying to make the point that someone wading into large numbers may not be at risk, whereas someone going up alone against a single tough (for them) foe might be. For a newb, any vet is probably quite dangerous to voluntarily face.