So I was playing a entropy shifter a couple of months ago, making no impact on the game, but having an okay time. As I usually do I go after a religion and was planning on following Daphadee.

One login I go to the inn to pray, seems appropriate, and after praying I got smited. No explanation. I prayed IC about it and was smote again. No explanation.

I let him auto after that.

My question to the playerbase is other than the stuff in the thread below why are we so seemingly disgruntled by this game we all once enjoyed? For me this encounter was pretty much the opposite of fun (I look for RP mainly) and turned me right to my PS4. I haven’t looked back.

To the imms: If this is the sort of thing you’re doing (not to mention some other stuff lately) do you really think you’re making the game more fun? Is it fun for you to zap somebody while wizinvis and not RP with them?

The ball has been collectively dropped and if love to pick it up again, but not with the crackdowns on everything that makes the game enjoyable to me.

We all collectively are terrible in some ways and awesome in others. If we spent a little less time remembering how we believe someone else pissed in our cheerios and remembering instead all of the cool stuff, this could be a lot better of a place.

I am going to be locking this thread as well because now its just gotten to the point where having 2 different this game sucks threads is just spamming #### without a single hint of constructive narrative.

Nt

I've been wondering about that for a few months now. Forums look like 15 y/o me hacked everyone's accounts and started airing grievances under them, but when I look closer, 80% of it is just the usual suspects and whatever sophistry they feel like they have to engage in to frame their incessant whining as "feedback."

If someone actually had a real suggestion, where they aren't actually just baiting a predictable response to be offended by, or if someone has a legitimate complaint (like yours), it's going to be almost impossible to tell it apart from all the dog#### on here.

Honestly, I wish everyone whining would just shut the #### up at this point, I can't even take snarky potshots at imms very often anymore since so many are obsessed with using the forums as a pillory for the staff.

Edges, Hell, ST.

*juggles keys*

I can't speak to your specific issue since I don't know what shapeshifter you were, or why you were smited. If you were praying for an imm NOT in their shrine, some imms smite you. I know FOR SURE that some religions smite you. I can't speak to yours, but that's a possibility. Your best bet might be emailing the imm in question and asking for feedback so you can figure out stuff :).


I'd rather not have two threads like this, so if you don't mind let's keep it all to the other thread.

To the imms - it depends on the imm. Not all imms are the same, not all religions are the same. While Ishuli might not smite you for praying to her from a bar, I'm sure Ergush might. That IS rp. Just like if you pray "Hey Ish, F U u suck" and I smite you, that's my IC response to whatever faux pas you may have done to gain the negative attention of the god(s).

Not sure what else to say since you haven't mentioned what character, but again I suggest emailing the Imm to figure out why it happened if you are 100% unsure.

-Ish

I read this as a for-whatever-reason FU from some IMM and I’m pretty sure it wasn’t Daph herself.

It made me feel unwelcome in a game that has given me thousands of hours of enjoyment but has taken a staggering turn for the worse in recent years.

Now I get my face shot off in Fortnite and it’s a lot more pleasant.

If that's the case I'm not sure why you're posting. If you're playing something else, good for you, but I don't really get the point if 1) You don't care, and 2) You're playing something else.

Why make the post then?

I responded trying to be helpful since the fact that you bothered to post implied to me you cared :-/.

This kinda stuff bugs me lol. I don't get it, but I'll still try to be helpful :).

-sih

I’d love to be playing CF right now, but I feel like you guys broke it and don’t care.

I don't think it's broken.

I'm responding here, and we have ongoing things.

I think it's hard to translate that into not caring. But if you somehow see all of that and still think I/we don't care, then I don't think you're open to convincing at all.

Probably one of my last posts in this thread, I'm not particularly enjoying it.

-Ish

How can you hope to get people back playing CF if you don't care why they left?

I've seen people leave because they were caught cheating. I've been told, in game, to "go #### myself" because I didn't respond to a pray within 5 minutes. I've seen people delete because they lost 1 piece of a full shiny set.

I see people leave for a LOT of reasons. That doesn't mean I have to cater to all of them. BUT I do listen to all of them. And I do care simply to know why, since it gives me a good idea of the playing field.

If someone deleted because they got smited for praying to a god with silly lingo in a not-shrine, then I 'care' only insofar as I know why. I'm not sensitive enough to delete for that reason myself, and I don't think taking smites off the table is the answer.

Gods are gods, and they can slap you for many a silly reason.

Strangely, I have FOND memories of being beaten up by gods while I was a mort.

-Ish

Thanks for making assumptions Ish.

pray Homie homard come chill with me


I don't know what you prayed, I'm just throwing out what might bother me and what might not.

Edited to add: If that assumption/brief description bothered you, I'm sorry.


Edited edited to add: If it was Auggie, then I do think "Paging Nurse Daphedee" is a silly line.

But for a long time I was one of the top RPers playing.

I’ve never sent a silly or stupid pray in my life.

Why would I act like an idiot when approaching a goddess I wish to favor me?

The reaction was as uncalled for as a slay/purge for saying #### in an empty room.

You dig?

In fact when I didn't get one I felt like I'd disappointed him.

I, too, smite a lot in RP interactions. And probably 90% of the time it's not for doing anything wrong at all.

I was wrong to smite you and not explicitly tell you why. I kind of assumed that you would understand why, but it's clear you didn't and that's not fun or fair. I apologize.

I ended up going back and figuring out who you were and remembering what happened. The reason for the smite was that you sent up a pray that was very much OOC and silly. Some more context: I recall there being kind of a pattern of behavior that I believed was intended to be "chaotic" but was instead occasionally violated the wall between RL and the fantasy world of CF. This tendency was also written out in the character's role. Basically, with all of this in mind, I thought you were intentionally trying to see how far you could push that boundary with that prayer. The smite was just intended to let you know that you had pushed it far enough.

Given that it was a little while ago and a metric ####ton has happened since then both in and out of CF, I don't remember if I ever did anything else to guide you. I remember intending to - I've helped to course-correct more than a couple of characters entering chaotic-stupid territory. But maybe I didn't. I've been busy and have a kid on the way in the next couple of months. If I neglected to follow up, then that's on me.

When I smite someone, especially if they're just chilling at the Inn or in their guild, I hadn't thought of it as an *actual* punishment since it has no consequences beyond very temporarily dropping HP and mana by 50%. I underestimated the emotional damage that a smite can do beyond its mechanical effects.

In the future, I will make sure that the precise reason for a smite is absolutely clear.

I do care about this game. I don't do this for the power-trip. I genuinely dislike enacting punishment (though I clearly relish the occasional smite). I haven't had time to play a mort in a long time now because I feel a responsibility to use what little CF time I have to try to deepen the experience for people who play this game. Sometimes I screw up and/or don't come across as intended. This is one of those cases.

That’s always gonna be true.

I hope you learned something here.

Also there is a lame trend of assuming that all entropy RP is necessarily “stupid” and if you took issue with vernacular it’s clear that you didn’t read the role, which was visions of future Thera and the character would speak of modern and futuristic terrors regularly.

But to reiterate: If you ain’t gonna RP please find another hobby. That goes for everyone.

And if you’ve never heard a bartender referred to as “Nurse” you need to get out more.

nt

>nt

Rahsael gave you:
An uncontested admission of wrong doing.
An explanation that he had no ill-intent.
A sincere apology for what he did.
A clear promise to improve with a plan he can deliver on.

What did he get?
>"I hope you learned something."
Are you his mom? Even I wouldn't talk down to someone like that, ESPECIALLY not if they just gave me a heartfelt apology.

>Also there is a lame trend of assuming that all entropy RP is necessarily “stupid” and if you took issue with vernacular it’s clear that you didn’t read the role, which was visions of future Thera and the character would speak of modern and futuristic terrors regularly.
Ah so you can just break RP with real world #### whenever you want, because you put it in your role, got it.

>But to reiterate: If you ain’t gonna RP please find another hobby. That goes for everyone.
Seriously now? He already put his big-boy pants on, said sorry and said he'd do better next time. He went out of his way to apologize and instead of doing the same you're rubbing his nose in it. Go #### yourself. I should not be the one to have to point this out.

>And if you’ve never heard a bartender referred to as “Nurse” you need to get out more.
A google for "bartender called nurse" and "why do people call bartenders nurse" turns up nothing. Not related to CF, same #### as above.

Seriously. If you weren't going to accept the most sincere apology I can imagine, I don't know what the #### you wanted here. I don't know why I assumed you had any desire to make some kind of progress, at all. I'm sorry for him that he apologized to you, you don't deserve it.

You’re way too emotionally invested in something that has nothing to do with you.

And yeah, none of that was aimed at him. That’s aimed at all of you. I know everyone has a hard on for Shaapa, but as far as I’m concerned he’s an NPC with great AI. Never gotten a shred of RP from him. I think he sucks at CF as a result. Attacks unjustified by RP will get you slapped with an alignment change. I’m just calling him out.

I had what I thought was a great role. I’m sorry if it ####ed up Rah’s immersion, but I don’t have to accept his apology when his behavior is par-for-the-course with the both IMMs and players acting completely without RP. But he’s held to a higher standard.

He acted like a #### and ruined the funstick for a character who I thought had a lot of potential. Y’all loved that Dwarf from space. Give something different a chance. The game is going on 30 years. How many times can mages burn your village?

And you are a huge bitch that I lost most respect for because of this #### show thread and your holier than thou approach to every one else. Good lord.

Was that recent scarab deletion thread where he got purged for cursing in an empty room.

That’s so wildly out of touch from my version of CF that I feel like those “George Lucas raped my childhood” guys.

I’d love to see this game come back from the dead, but this kind of #### is actively driving off defect players. Do you think the Scarab Invoker or whatever wasn’t good for the game? Why the emphasis on making the whole experience less fun?

I don’t think any of you guys are really enjoying this anymore. How about you guys all bail and let those of us trying to have a good time have it back?

I’m just really disappointed in Rah, and sure I accept his apology, but I do hope he learned something. I KNOW Emnon did when he ruined the event at the Inn. That was ####ty too.

Let it be a learning experience, but realize that a single mistake will drive people away. It’s like a restaurant where you have a hundred good meals but then get sick. You’re not going back.

Was a very stupid reaction from imms I would agree.

I just think you went over board here.

We already had a ####ing #### you ####er imms thread going.

I hate the ‘the Game is DEAD’ forum trend every time it comes around year after year.

I once denied a character on a whim, too, in 2008.

Okay, I did it after he spent weeks incessantly badmouthing me in-game. But he didn't break any rules per se so I guess it was technically on a whim.

(Spoiler: the ban was reversed by an Implementor and I lost the deny command for a couple years.)

>(Spoiler: the ban was reversed by an Implementor and I lost
>the deny command for a couple years.)

Well at least he didn't close Hell instead.

You've embarrassed yourself with this thread and I hope you can step back and realize this in a more rational manner than you are exercising at present.

Lost a lot of respect for you.

Said trend is that lower-ranking imms make plenty of effort to have dialogue with players and earn the game good publicity, and they are not afraid to admit a mistake while still defending their own views.

Apologies are powerful.
But I guess Umiron and Scarabaeus are above that.

IF we could get
>An uncontested admission of wrong doing.
>An explanation that he had no ill-intent.
>A sincere apology for what he did.
>A clear promise to improve with a plan he can deliver on.

w.r.t. reading out-of-game correspondence and banning people on a whim, we'd be golden.

Considering that the players that tend to start these threads tend to act like condescending assholes, even when faced with a genuine apology.

It's much easier just to turn a blind eye to these complaints, since an apology clearly won't actually change anything regarding this player.

I post this because I see value in exposing the truth, not because I want a chance to act like an asshole.

But it will never happen. A promise to never again dish out unjust punishments would be way too much of a promise.

And reverting a wrong ban? Unthinkable.
(This is sarcasm. I have seen Umiron revert a wrong ban.)

Your words were heard. A rare occurrence.

I vaguely recall a shifter praying what seemed like some chaotic stupid stuff, but I didn't smite anyone for it.

Daphedee seems to be a huge cunt to people for no reason at all.

People don't get that if you chose to roleplay a twat, you're a twat.

Since when does lobster-boy have a history of being a twat?

Edit: lol nvm

But in this case, it wasn't me.

Have a nice day!

Wizi smites with no RP are doodoo

But, as one IMM said, CF is for the enjoyment of the IMMs and if players enjoy it and play, that's just icing on the cake.

Given enough time with that philosophy, it's inevitable that the number of players who enjoy the game will approach 0.

Well as an honest observation when I was in IMMland they didn’t seem to really be enjoying themselves any more than the players.

I don't get why you keep repeating this since I haven't heard a single imm in immdom say it, and all of the imms I work with do so as volunteers with a focus on trying to make the game swell.

It didn't bother me when you said it once, but by repeating it it feels like you're trying to spread a false narrative. Which I don't like.

Anyway, just responding since that bothers me.

-Ish

But from my observations over a series of months most of the high level IMMs I spoke to seemed to feel that they were for some reason at odds with the playerbase.

I put it down to small minded people wielding what little authority and control they have in life as a way to feel like they matter, I guess. It was a major turn-off. I cannot emphasize that enough.

A lot of you guys are great to RP with, but you’re really pretty abrasive without that level of insulation. I know that goes for the players, but I was legitimately surprised to witness what I can only describe as an Us vs. Them mentality.

If you want I’ll see if I have logs of IMMs acting just as petty and petulant as any player, but I don’t have the energy to look for them.

Maybe it’s all peace and love for you Ish, but my experience, and the experiences of several other washed out Hero IMMs I’ve spoken to is that most of you guys are pretty unpleasant.

Since I've been here there haven't been any washed out heroimms I'm aware of, so that's strange. As to "at odds", given the posts I regularly see here, and the prays I see, there are definitely folks that are purposefully antagonistic and rather rude.

For a brief example, I see a big chunk of various "#### you" to the imms this year alone in prays. I can tell you every time I've seen them, that it doesn't do much for a discussion or anything like that. But I think if you've seen stuff like that for years, it gets pretty easy to 'feel at odds'. I personally don't feel at odds, but given the dialogue I have seen just recently on these threads, I can see a number of people want it to be, or are intent on painting it that way.


I haven't seen any behavior relating to trying to matter by authority. I haven't seen a single administrator act like a turd to act like a turd. I can't emphasize that enough.

Not much else I can say since I'm only used to what I've seen and experienced while I'm here, but I admit I am kinda getting bored of threads like these, since it has no focus of what is currently ongoing in the game - and we've got lots we're doing! :)

-Ish

You come here making an accusation of wrong-doing. Ok, fine.
You get a legitimate apology and explanation for what you percieved as wrong-doing (which, from an outside perspective, you were probably at least equally at fault in).

Your response? To talk down to the Imm like he's your misbehaving child.

Keeping in mind this is one of the most respected Imms around right now, who has put countless hours into making the game more fun for the players. And this is how you treat him for saying sorry?

Put yourself in his position and tell me whether you'd be willing to put yourself out there and dedicate hundreds (or thousands) of hours of your personal time to making the game more fun for these players.

You are the problem, more than any of these Imms.

If you thought it was false, you should have called me out the first time instead of thinking I just make things up for no reason and letting everyone read it unchallenged.

Umiron said it in this forum. I quote:

"I know this probably isn't what some of you want to hear, but at the end of the day CF always has and probably always will be something that a handful of people do as a hobby for their own enjoyment first and foremost, and that anyone bothers to play it is icing on the cake."

The statement went unchallenged by every IMM to my knowledge. If it's not true, I'll be relieved.

You conveniently left off the rest of what Umiron posted that explained the context as an idea of art vs. product, emphasizing the statement wasn't about selfish/ego/rudeness.

He didn't say it's for the "enjoyment of the imms" as in some sole-selfish focus of self-admiration. It's that it's a labor of love. And I can relate to that. I love the work I've done on CF. I've put a lot of time in it. I'd keep doing it EVEN IF no players played, as it is something I'm genuinely enamored with. When I've stuck in a new area that I spent months working on, I am already happy. When players are exploring it and kicking butt, dying, or reading descs - I'm even happier, it really is the icing on the cake for me. I don't expect anyone to love it the way I do, and I am not entitled to expect them to.

I think you're purposefully and vastly misrepresenting what he said. Your repetitious nature of the clipped version is disingenuous.

BUT I admit I have the additional context of having worked with Umi. He does a thankless job and has dealt with my errors with nothing but patience. He gives feedback, bluntly (which is a good thing), but is game to help. He keeps the servers running, and sets up things other folks don't even think of. So with that context, I know he doesn't view it as a creation of ego. He cares about it too. It's not a hobby for enjoyment to the extent of playing in my own little play-room. The door is unlocked and folks can come enjoy what we've made whenever they like. When they do, I appreciate it and am happy. When they don't, I'll keep slaving away working on it because I think it's damned awesome.

So yes, what you're saying is false, what Umi said isn't. It's like a fake news headline misrepresenting the actual dialogue.

And it DOES bother me because I engage, DAILY, in a way that shows how false that representation is. Seems pointless to keep the server online and operating if nobody gives a #### if people play :P, so it's insanely simple to see how misrepresented the statement is.

-Ish

He states his thesis in the first sentence. In the second sentence he states that the first is the simple truth. I haven't misrepresented anything. His theses is not a "fake headline" nor does it mean anything other than exactly what he meant by it.

So, here is the full quote (which you could have included but didn't) and people can see if the context changes the meaning (it doesn't). I don't appreciate the implication that I am trying to deceive anyone by quoting Umiron's own words accurately.

"I know this probably isn't what some of you want to hear, but at the end of the day CF always has and probably always will be something that a handful of people do as a hobby for their own enjoyment first and foremost, and that anyone bothers to play it is icing on the cake. That isn't meant to sound selfish, egotistical or rude, it's just the truth. CF is not a product or a startup or something that I feel like we "owe" anyone. A handful of people have years of sweat equity in CF and as long as they/we remain passionate about our game it stands to reason we would continue to develop the kind of game that we get satisfaction from creating. In that sense, it's more an art than a business (which people often try to analogize CF with) in that we do it because we enjoy it, not because we care of anyone buys our paintings. Handing over the keys to someone else, letting players drive us away, or simply letting a vocal few dictate our choices so that the thing we're passionate about and personally invested in might be more appealing to a subset of our players just doesn't make any sense."

Edit: For even more context, this was a reply to someone who complained about "Blame shifting "fun"-ness of the game to vitriolic players, and not the admins responsible for keeping a game fun and playable.

So, someone suggests that it's the admin's job to keep the game fun and enjoyable for players. Umi responds that the admin does what they do for their enjoyment and if the players like it it's icing on the cake. So, the paraphrase and the quote I gave meant exactly what they appeared to mean. They were not "cherry-picked", "out of context" nor "false".

Having read that, you should well know then that what I stated is right. It's not a non-care of players, it's not a selfish ego thing. It's a labor of love. Reading after the line you kept clipping, that is infinitely clear.

He isn't saying players don't matter, that it's ONLY for imm fun ("first and foremost" vs. only. To imply otherwise is misguiding at best, false at worst.

And given what was written, why paste only a clip of it trying to emphasize the statement as if it was malicious? It clearly says that first and foremost for folks is that the game is a hobby (I imagine most players also play it as a hobby first and foremost over some other obligation). I don't see anything wrong with what he said - again, to repeat, it's a labor of love more than it is a focused product intended for mass consumption. Like he said, a piece of art - it may not be intended for factory production, it likely doesn't appeal to the masses (why make a text game in the first place if popularity was the goal?), and it's instead a fancy piece made with affection that others hopefully enjoy too.

At most you can call his post sappy :P.

-Ish

Ish: Where does this us v them feeling come from? I don't see it.
Me: Here's what Umiron said (quotes Umiron)
Ish: Liar! Fake news!

Umiron's post was clear. In response to a player saying that the admins should be keeping the game fun and playable, he states:

1. CF is something a handful of people (IMMs) do "first and foremost" for their own enjoyment. "First and foremost" means before any other consideration which includes the enjoyment of players. The fact that he refers to it as a "hobby" has no bearing on his meaning.

2. CF is not something he feels we (the IMMs) "owe" anyone.

3. It's more an "art" than a business in that "we don't care how many paintings we sell". He's saying that CF is not consumer driven (consumers being the players) and that the IMMs being satisfied with what they're doing is what matters. This reinforces the first point.

You are the one mis-characterizing what he said. The fist sentence of what he said is an accurate summary of what he was trying to convey which is why I used it.

If he was only expressing his passion for what he did (which would not have addressed the original point to which he was replying) why would he preface it with this "isn't what some of you want to hear..."

Lastly, why do you feel the need to twist yourself into knots to decipher Umiron's meaning when if he didn't mean it he could just say so himself?

nt

nt

nt

There's a vast difference between:

1. My hobby is doing my best to make the game better for everyone.

and

2. My hobby is tinkering with the game and I don't give a #### about how people feel about it.


The earlier is what you are referring (and seem to act in a similar manner) to. The latter is how Umiron appears (and makes distinct effort to appear) to the public. Hence the big big big difference in perception of you two.

You're asking us to trust your judgment of Umiron because you know him better than we do.

Well then how about you trust my judgment of Kstatida because chances are I know him much better than you do and I know he didn't cheat?

It's a very close quote of Umiron :(