Offer EPs for PK that are mutually exclusive with the Explore EPs. I know the staff has little patience for discussing PK EPs but hear me out.

There are 4 tiers for Explore. Put in 4 tiers for PK EPs and each PK tier can only be earned if the corresponding Explore tier hasn't been reached already, and the EP values are the same.

Right now there are explore EPs available at 5K, 10K, 15K and 30K with level restrictions. You could have also EPs available for PK at 10PK, 25PK, 50PK and 100PK with level restrictions. And, you could only get either the 10PK tier or the 5k explore tier, and so on.

This wouldn't change the overall amount of EPs available to a character. It would just create an alternate avenue to obtaining EPs to accommodate PK orientated characters.


I've got a new character going and I'm just having a hard time getting motivated to go explore the same old areas for whatever high number time it would be for me. Some people would prefer to PK instead of explore. This would accommodate that but also prevent the system from being gamed or abused.

Thoughts?

nt

They wouldn't have changed the system in the first place.

Btw I think I know why Twist stopped playing. Cause it's no longer fun after he was instrumental in nuking edges :)))

I get that's a non-starter.

I'm just asking for a different way to get them.

Right, but removing pk edges was not done to reduce edge points per se. It was done to stop multikilling (eg stomp the same newb once per day) and to address heightened level sitting (because the latter was making it even worse to get groups).

So restoring it would need to avoid reintroducing or exacerbating these issues.

You can, of course, get pk edge points by dying a lot in pk. ;). I keep reminding myself of that as I mud by phone and my consequent pk losses accumulate. ;). The double whammy being that you are less likely to get imm experience when your contribution to the pk side of the game is trying to avoid fighting (because it is frigging hard to perform a skill on a tiny keyboard) and getting your butt whipped each time you fail to avoid the fight. Of course, the one time I was about to miraculously kill someone, an ally of theirs saved them.

Don't get me wrong, I liked edge points for ok. I just recognise that taking them out was done for a reason.

I don't like the overall reduction in edge points though, especially as we were told that imm exp would increase when in fact it decreased. And if you are not religious in the game you make it much harder to interact with imms, which seems to be the main way to get imm exp.

The reason people level sat and multi-killed was because there were EPs available for every 5, 10 & 15 PKs every 9 levels, or so. Plus, there were the general PK tiers on top of it. That was a lot of available EPs.

Under my suggestion, if you want the EPs badly enough it would be much easier to just go out and get the explore exps, especially for the first two tiers (5k & 10K).

However, if you are tired of exploring and just want to be involved in PK, you can get some EPs every so often for it. You just give up the opportunity to earn EPs exploring to do it.

Did I not explain my idea very well in my original post? I feel like people are missing the idea, so maybe I didn't.

Any and every change to EPs has ALWAYS resulted in a net loss to overall EPs.

The most hilarious EP change was to commerce XP. People screamed "We don't want to farm commerce XP for EP u to 21k!!". Umi "fixed" that by removing an EP every 1k commerce XP and adding in EP only for 7.5k, 15k and 30k. So you get less EP overall for commerce but have to farm MORE commerce XP. Brilliant trolling.

So just be careful what you ask for when you have a guy with keys to the castle like Umi.

i beamuse myself

But it would first have to address the issues about player behaviour, that caused the removal of pk edge points.

My point about the other stuff was simply not to confuse the removal of pk edge points with the wider effort to reduce edge points. The former was trying to address a more narrowly defined problem.

Personally though, I loved the original edge system and my solution, if it was felt to be making the rich richer and the poor poorer, would have been to half what you get for each edge point target you hit, and dump all that you just removed into a pot that characters get at level 25.

It doesn't encourage those behaviors.

It's a big reason of why I made the suggestion.

I know why EPs for PK were removed. I wouldn't make a suggestion if I thought that suggestion just caused more of the same problems.

I made the suggestion with three things in mind:


1. The imms are happy with the current amount of EPs available.
2. EPs for PK were removed because they encouraged problematic behavior.
3. Many players like EPs for PK

My suggestion doesn't add to the amount of EPs available. It doesn't incentivize problematic behavior because there is an easier path to getting the available EPs and it does offer EPs for PK, albeit in a very watered down limited way.

If you disagree with me, please tell me why. Otherwise, please stop saying it needs to address these issues because I believe it does and even said so in the last line of my original post and again in the second post.

Yes, there are other avenues to get EP's in this scenario. However, if someone finds themself in a range with easy/newb kills, this system can incentivize they sit there to hit each tier, so they don't have to do the explore part. Yes they are seperate, and you can get them without PK. But if certain players can exploit easy kills to reach those marks, they will. This obviously doesn't go for 90% of the PB, but those 10% will find a way to ruin it. I for one, miss PK EP, but understand why they are gone.

I think you're making two false assumptions here.

1. Multikilling is a common enough problem that we need to take steps to address it.
2. Multikilling up to this set number of kills is less time-consuming than reaching the equivelent level of exploration experience.

The issue in the past (which I'm not sure was as much of a problem as some people seem to think) is that hitting those PK metrics was a yes/no proposition. Either you hit that threshold and got the edgepoints, or you didn't and you were short of edge points. So some people who wanted to maximize edge points would hit these exploration goals and ALSO multikill people.

With this recommendation, they have a choice: either kill a bunch of people, or explore a few spots. I think most people who are interested in the most payoff for the time will choose the latter. It's easy to take a quick walk through Organia, for example. It takes a lot more time to chase someone down, kill them, wait for them to unghost, chase them down again, kill them again.. 25 times. So even if they were willing to multikill, it just isn't worth their time to do so.


Also.. this is still a PK-focused game. More PK is a good thing. Incentivizing PK isn't bad. There are far better ways to de-incentivize multikilling (make it 25 unique PKs instead of total PKs, or use something similar to AP charge system), and still reward people for doing it.

But as we should all remember, there are some ####-tier players still (griefers, I mean).

To preface, I am honestly for this idea, I'd like it. However, it can't be forgotten that the small sub-set of players who are already griefers, may use this as an excuse to grief further. I'm not fighting against this idea, just trying to make his argument clearer, in what I took away from it.

Edit: Even if there is no real gain from doing so, it's an excuse for them to do it. Just to be clear.

>Btw I think I know why Twist stopped playing. Cause it's no
>longer fun after he was instrumental in nuking edges :)))

I'm still playing. How was I instrumental in nuking edges?

You posted how EPs accrued for various things, notably in on the PK side, if memory serves. Which some people seem to equate to the rebalancing of the EP system.

I'm sure not everyone can realize that your posting did not directly necessitate the nuking of the then existing EP system.

What players did with the accrual information, and the basic farming nature of the EP system by players in general, is why the system was altered. (I think)

>I'm still playing. How was I instrumental in nuking edges?

Well that's good to know. I just didn't see your goodbies in quite awhile :) Looking forward to your cool logs!


1. You were first to post detailed edge explanation as Santa Twist that everyone blames to be the start of minmaxing. So you've opened Pandora's box :)

2. You were source of obj/exp leak that resulted in even more minmaxing :)

3. You were praised as a source of inspiration and input to the latest revamp of edgepoints :)


Effectively that's how you were instrumental in nuking edges :)

Or if you have to point fingers, point them at yourself. Twist didn't do anything to nuke edges. He did a lot to help the players. He listened to the players. He took what they said and tried to give them something they could use. He tried to keep Santa Vulg going and look how the players thanked him. He took the time out of his day to read all of our ####e and try to find a way to make our wishes happen. Players are constantly begging for things to be more transparent. People were ripping their hair out trying to figure out exactly how to get the maximum amount. The people who nuked edges are the same people who implemented the anti-spam code for exploring. The people who nuked edges are the same people who are complaining about edges getting nuked. Don't even try to blame Umi either just because he's the guy who announced the trigger pull. The players are the ones who caused this. I miss having large edge numbers too, but pointing fking fingers in people's faces doesn't help. In fact that's a good way to NOT get what you want.

AND FOR FOCKS SAKE, would you people please stop acting like Twist was the guy who made that list and spearheaded it's distribution. You know damn well who made that list and who used it. He's not around anymore. Deal with it.

Bunch of crybabies. If you want to point fingers, look in a mirror.

Yep, if ktats tells me person A distributed the list, I am reasonably confident it'll be a lie.

Iirc twist revealed that you got ep for pk count within defined ranges. At that point, people wanted to max out the points for each range. To do so, they choose to level sit (I plead guilty) and whack newbs to boost the count (partially guilty, as the were men's I killed more then once albeit not close in time).

Then equally the botters got a list from an insider and used it to try to effectively give themselves free edge points on every character. Now I do get that exploring with every character had unfun parts to it, but it's not really that different to spamming up a skill. Repetitive, but at the same time rewarding as long as you keep the time spent on it down to reasonable levels.

But fundamentally the edge nuking is down to imms who believed that characters should only be able to get a handful of edges. You could only achieve that by nuking edge points or the equivalent.

That's how you've lost all you'd had.

Fooled you, there's text here. :P

Now Twist is a bad guy somehow?

I understand humans psychologically focus on negative events, but what is it about CFers that makes them so paranoid and sour? Just look at the last 10 threads and see how many of them are like that. Holy ####.

edit: I changed the thread number and in a row comment because the stars aligned to make me look silly.

But not you.

You've made it clear how you feel about this, a lot more than once. Please stop trying to smear people and when you get called out for BS you double down and pull the "You think I'm serious? I'm obviously joking and now you're stupid for not getting the joke." You're not joking. Stop with the act, this isn't a schtick anymore. Please stop.

You don't understand how a person can be serious and joke at the same time.

Let me explain this to the audience. Forgive me Murphy for I agree with you that explaining humour is a sad thing.

1) I perceive nuking edges is a bad thing for the game - this is serious.

2) There is a (I believe shaky) consensus in immland re edges - this is serious

3) I think that this consensus is stupid - this is serious

4) I use every opportunity to talk about that - now here starts humour, because talking about stupid is one of the ways how satire works. And satire is a good non-violent way of instigating change, for I am against launching rockets to Umiron's house. And I had used my veto right in the UN SC when beront proposed it.

5) I use unexpected angles to look at the problem (for example, dragging Twist inside) - this is also how humour works.

6) If you read "Twist was instrumental in nuking edges" as "Twist is bad" - it means that people believe that nuking edges is bad for the game. But Twist is largely perceived as a person that is good for the game. What we see here is a typical moral conflict - and that's where true humour exists. By laughing you realize that bad things are bad - and realizing the problem is half solving them.

Ppl saying there is no humour and I'm crying make me laugh even more, adding even more humour to the situation. So you're welcome :)

P.S. Rob chiming in made me sad though, because think he is genuinely a very smart person.

P.P.S. Having to explain all this makes me even sadder, so one can think that haters have achieved their ultimate goal of making me sad. (the latter is, of course, humour)

You put some effort into this so I'll give you my thoughts in case you're interested.

Even putting aside that some people are generally too sensitive and literal all of the time, there's a reason why you can have a crowd of normal people laughing their asses off at a live stand-up comic as they make some joke that would normally be offensive, but a video of the same joke by itself often sends a lot of normal people into such a frenzy that they morally shame and bully the comic into hiding: it's because humor depends heavily on contextual framing. Without providing the appropriate frame to satire, the meaning and spirit of your words, for the audience, is filtered only by their subjective, personal experience and belief at the time. In my case, you needed to do something more/different for me to recognize it.

My context is:
-In my opinion there's a lot of negativity directed at the staff here, and there has been for a while. I don't think the majority of it is warranted and it's wearing me out just watching it.
-You already have a personal grievance with the staff that you're vocal about here.
-Considering what you had to say about how closing Hell reflects on Scarab's personal character, it's not hard for me to imagine you'll see malice where I do not (and we do have some fundamental disagreements on the moral nature of actions in general), especially in conjunction with the things I just said.

What you've been saying and how you said it does mostly follow the pattern of playful criticism, I can totally see it that way if I try, but I interpreted it completely differently because I started from a different place mentally than you did. I even saw the smileys as smug condescension, and the playful tone as passive-aggressiveness, so, completely serious. In particular what made it not seem like hyperbole is that you accused Twist of being responsible for a leak, and when I hear leak I imagine the kind where someone shared with a player instead of just making a mistake. I haven't heard of him having anything to do with something like that.

Not saying my frame of mind is completely justified, but it's not crazy either. I'm also not saying that I'm not negative and rude or diligent at all about courteously framing my message so it lands the way it's supposed to, just explaining where I'm coming from and why I think it's reasonable.

Don't really have a strong opinion on edges either way so not touching that.

P.S. I think you're a smart guy too and I like you.

P.P.S. Don't assume my gender.

Yay!

That this is what I think of when I see you try to explain humor.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCIo4MCO-_U

And then when you double down and try again, this is what I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iB6UI79pLEM

I kid. Thanks for actually trying to explain yourself instead of doubling down again. This is more of what the game needs.

Keep doing you. Except one change, make sure to roll up on my team. :P