Ok, I first, I'd like to thank you guys for helping shifters out more and more lately. Lower levels, partial shifts, keep up the good work. Im just curious as to why its pretty much useless to use anything but 4th tier forms in pk. As an offensive shifter, I had black bear with haste and stoneskin at a confident skill leave and never touched a bard that attacked my group with some others. I believe this is a sticky subject to address, but Im thinking perhaps to add more skill levels to forms, so that one might be able to take a bear and actually make people think twice about attacking a group with a 2nd tier form. just a bit frustrate with being PK'd and taunted and not being able to back anything up. I can get preps this low to help out, but if Im not landing round for round attacks, whats the point? and I know how to (revert;c word) as well as (flee;rev;c teleport) so those suggestions are unneeded.

-rulanit-

as I am no great mage player but played to my forms strengths.

-----Abernyte

hrm...ive been reading here and asking many other shifters in the game and reading the help files and im just courious what your opinions would be to pick a shapefocus, i still have both open and am still not sure what to set with because ive gotten tons of mixed opinions without any explination why those are useful and was just wondering if you guys could give me opinions of which shapefocuses are good and why and ill read over those to help me make up my mind, thanks :)

It's not the cakewalk that say, a bash spamming fire giant with vuln exploiting axes is, but it's not instadeath for you to try either. I suggest you try a little more selectiveness with your targets and give it a go.

If I can kill a warrior or an assassin with a ferret or a goat, you can kill with a bear.

FYI, I've recently seen solo PK with forms of that tier.

(487/565hp 654/654m 441/441mv) =12 AM= 5150(50.95%)exp
whoi pally
<23 Elf Pal> (PK) Pally the Champion

(563/565hp 654/654m 441/441mv) =1 AM= 5150(50.95%)exp
whoi shifter
<31 Human Shf> (PK) Shifter the Mistress of Levitation




(565/565hp 546/654m 338/441mv) =2 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
murder Pally
They aren't here.

(565/565hp 546/654m 338/441mv) =2 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
w
A Narrow Rocky Path


Pally is here.

(565/565hp 546/654m 336/441mv) =2 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
murder Pally
Pally yells 'Help! I am being attacked by a racoon!'
You fade into existence.
Pally parries your bite.
Pally meets your bite with a resounding impact.
Pally parries your bite.
Pally has a few scratches.

(565/565hp 546/654m 336/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
Pally heavenly wrath devastates you!
Pally has a few scratches.

(536/565hp 546/654m 336/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally parries your bite.
You move out of the range of Pally frigid chop.
Pally has a few scratches.

(536/565hp 546/654m 336/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
l Pally


Autosaving.
Pally has a few scratches.

(539/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
Pally parries your bite.
Pally parries your bite.
Pally parries your bite.
You dodge Pally frigid chop.
Pally has a few scratches.

(539/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp Pally, a male elf, has a few scratches.

pally is using:
<worn on finger> a tarnished silver ring
<worn on finger> a tarnished silver ring
<worn around neck> a sandy-brown desert cloak
<worn around neck> a sandy-brown desert cloak
<worn on body> (Magical) some white robes with gold trim
<worn on head> a runed demon's skull
<worn on legs> a pair of colorful baggy pants
<worn on feet> a pair of steel chain boots
<worn on hands> a pair of black leather gloves
<worn on arms> midnight dragon armguards
<worn about body> a large saddle bag
<worn about waist> a wide bronze belt
<worn around wrist> (Magical) a copper bracer
<wielded> (Magical) a huge frost-covered bastard sword
Pally has a few scratches.


(539/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Your bite DISMEMBERS Pally!
Pally parries your bite.
You dodge Pally frigid chop.
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(539/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
Pally heavenly wrath DISMEMBERS you!
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(480/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
forage
You are too busy fighting to forage.
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(480/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally parries your bite.
Pally parries your bite.
Pally frigid chop misses you.
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(480/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally brings a huge frost-covered bastard sword up and across at you!
Pally strike of faith DISMEMBERS you!
Completing his upper slash, Pally steps forward and brings a huge frost-covered bastard sword down in an opposite arc towards you, but misses!
Pally strike of purity misses you.
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(417/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally parries your bite.
Pally stops your bite with a solid blow.
Pally frigid chop EVISCERATES you!
Pally frigid chop EVISCERATES you!
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(324/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally, a male elf, has some small but disgusting cuts.

Pally is using:
<worn on finger> a tarnished silver ring
<worn on finger> a tarnished silver ring
<worn around neck> a sandy-brown desert cloak
<worn around neck> a sandy-brown desert cloak
<worn on body> (Magical) some white robes with gold trim
<worn on head> a runed demon's skull
<worn on legs> a pair of colorful baggy pants
<worn on feet> a pair of steel chain boots
<worn on hands> a pair of black leather gloves
<worn on arms> midnight dragon armguards
<worn about body> a large saddle bag
<worn about waist> a wide bronze belt
<worn around wrist> (Magical) a copper bracer
<wielded> (Magical) a huge frost-covered bastard sword
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(324/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally parries your bite.
Pally parries your bite.
You dodge Pally frigid chop.
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(324/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
Pally narrows his eyes and glares in your direction.
A tower of searing flames erupts forth from Pally hands, engulfing you with swirling tongues of fire.
Pally flamestrike devastates you!
Pally has some small but disgusting cuts.

(295/565hp 521/654m 351/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
flee
A Trail Up the Slope


You flee from combat!

(295/565hp 521/654m 349/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
s
A Junction of Two Paths



(295/565hp 521/654m 347/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
w
A Rock-Strewn Mountain Path


A member of the Voralion City border guard is here, protecting the paths.

(295/565hp 521/654m 345/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
s
A Rock-Strewn Mountain Path



(295/565hp 521/654m 343/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
u
The Rocky Bank of Voralia's Tears


(Invis) ap is sleeping here.

(295/565hp 521/654m 341/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
whe
People near you:
(PK) a racoon The Rocky Bank of Voralia's Tears
Grorira The Rocky Bank of Voralia's Tears
(PK) Pally A Rock-Strewn Mountain Path

(295/565hp 521/654m 341/441mv) =3 PM= 5150(50.95%)exp
w
A Bend in Voralia's Tears


A spotted fish swims just under the water's surface.




Now just a bit curious as to how a third tier form landed one god damn blow on a rank 23 two-hand paladin.

Can you tell me that nepeth? I'd really like to know.

That player vs. player, level doesn't mean #### in parrying/dodging/etc.?

Because it doesn't.

As long as the weapon stays in their hands, a high-dex two-handed paladin is not a terrible tank. (Though, they'd still probably tank better weapon and shield.)

There are all kinds of other factors that could be in play here. For example, the paladin might be hasted, and it doesn't look like you are, despite having it as a class ability.

In my opinion, a lot of people who play shifters seem to think their form should be some kind of magic "I win!" button, wherein they can just stand there and win purely based on the awesomeness of their form. That's not going to happen, generally. You didn't do anything in that fight that wouldn't have happened if you were AFK taking a piss. I don't know why you feel entitled to win a fight that way.

(Yes, I'm perfectly aware of what the racoon is capable of.)

I'll tell you this, though -- I've played a two-hand paladin, and I've played a human shifter with racoon, and I'd MUCH rather have your side of that matchup. Much.

Now you have shifters like arthakar, one that had one very strong offensive form and one defensive one that for a time exploited a weakness in the game. And this player obviously knew what he was doing, and fought alot, having fought him with two other chars I know he sought to fight. Even with all that going for him he did not manage to land many kills. There are alot of forms that are good to fight with and do their utility things, but more forms should be looked over and checked.

Ill take an example, if you want a log Ill also provide that.
Take an major offensive form the alligator and a frost giant in the frozen wastes. The alligator alone barely manages.

Take a warrior with ok+ eq at rank 30 no haste no resists and he does better. I dont see how that should be. The warrior outdammages the alligator, it hits more, and so on. I know Im not the only one that feels this way about the shifter class. I dont want to have UBER forms, though Id want them to be able to handle a one on one fight, without having aura barrier and shield. If I had all the three I would have wanted my foe to be paste. But its not like that.

The limitations put on the shifters are very big. No talking perhaps being the biggest. How underrated that is.

The ability to not to underwater in form, unless you have watermajor forms, or some few exceptions. Its a magical world. Even dwarfs can go underwater with a potion, why not a shifter? annimals dont swim? err watch natur channel... most do... really even dive... yes a few fear water.

And its counted as common knowledge the aspects of each form, you will not be surprised by them, even when they are prepped with offensive stuff. You cannot exploit vaunrabilities, unless you should fight a gnome or svirf. *I feel sorry for them that faces a ram*

Suggestions:
1. Make it so that them that chooses major in one art get a form that evloves up until hero, while the minor is a standard of sorts. Give the major one some strengths another would not have.
2. Let shifters go underwater, with hydrophobia.
3. Let shifters communicate with socials even via group, cabal and tells.
4. Review some forms, especially low rank defensive ones. They are more offensive than defensive.

Just my five cents.

I don't get why some people (not necessarily you) complain about shifters, think they're weak, and yet... keep playing them again and again.

Essentially, if you feel shifters are strictly inferior to a warrior, you probably should be playing a warrior instead unless you're looking for a challenge. I don't feel that way.

Is an offense shifter who just shows up for the fight and pretty much spams bite or whatever generally inferior to a warrior with good gear who picks smart spec/warrior moves to use in a fight? Probably, and that's as it should be.

What I understood from Larshalv was not the point that a warriors skillset should be balanced with a shifter, but the point that a hero shifter got his something teared a new hole against a frost giant in his alligator form (even with help from 3 midranked players) seems a tad pizzling when a lvl 30 warrior plows through him solo. An argument might be it can go underwater, but I have recently been playing a water shifter, and an alligator has nothing to do under the surface solo... Maby he can kill shrimps and such but much more and he is toast... I find the things underwater is fiercer than things the same rank on land, most of the time anyhow.

Many final forms are fine, its not that but there are a couple of forms that just isn't up to pair with the hero ranks and what goes on there. Defansive hero forms are very nice, same with utility, except the fact that some of them should maby have a little more hitrol than some of them get, some of the forms make it impossible to get preps with and explore with, while others are just fine.

Same defence shifters low rank have a couple of strange forms :) while the pachyderm seems missplaced... It can give damage competing with some warriors around that rank, fun at times, but at the same time its still not very defansive, esp compared to the other form you get. The 3rd tier forms are now beutifull defence wise :) Good work done there I must say. So my tumb goes up for most of the forms that exists today, still there are a couple that seems forgotten.

You know why some people play shifters over and over again? Because if you get two decent forms you can explore some pretty extreme areas which many classes can just dream of. But at the same time, it keeps for a lot of deletes around hero rank, and maby at hero rank at 100-150 hours or so.

Just my few cents, and I hope I didn't understand Larshalv wrong when I interped his post :)

Tirach

>What I understood from Larshalv was not the point that a
>warriors skillset should be balanced with a shifter, but the
>point that a hero shifter got his something teared a new hole
>against a frost giant in his alligator form (even with help
>from 3 midranked players) seems a tad pizzling when a lvl 30
>warrior plows through him solo.

I read that and my first thought was: "Well, of course."

A shifter often can't help but go through a frost giant's weapon resist.

A warrior even with passable gear should be able to get around that resistance, and maybe even exploit one of its vulnerabilities.




A side point: I find that in evaluating offense/defense forms especially, players fail to account for the fact that they're more extreme in their balance (or lack thereof) of offense and defense than even the most extreme warrior. Most offense forms aren't going to tank anywhere near as well as even a cloud axe specialist warrior. Most defense forms aren't going to get as many attacks or hit as hard as even an arial spear specialist warrior.

If the question then becomes "why doesn't my alligator do way more damage than the axe specialist", the short answer is that against some opponents, it would, and against others it wouldn't. A longer answer might point out advantages the shifter has that the warrior doesn't, including unshifted use of spells, wands, staves, scrolls, other items, and their additional forms.

The last time I had a hero shifter, I used all six of my forms at hero. (Seven if you count unshifted as an extra form, and you probably should.) That's with some forms that players at the time were deleting if they got. There's versatility and strength in milking your variety of forms for all you can, and if you choose not to use it, you might as well be chopping your own arm off before starting the boxing match.

>The last time I had a hero shifter, I used all six of
>my forms at hero.

I would very much like to see a log where you shifted to your 1-st tier form as a hero shifter if you still have it. I think it would be an interesting read for everyone.

>I would very much like to see a log where you shifted to your
>1-st tier form as a hero shifter if you still have it. I think
>it would be an interesting read for everyone.

I lost a hard drive around a year ago and my logs weren't important enough to be backed up. (Actually, I'm very bad with backups in general.)

>
>>I would very much like to see a log where you shifted to
>your
>>1-st tier form as a hero shifter if you still have it. I
>think
>>it would be an interesting read for everyone.
>
>I lost a hard drive around a year ago and my logs weren't
>important enough to be backed up. (Actually, I'm very bad
>with backups in general.)

Are you able to give a flavour as to how you used it? I just can't comprehend the fearsome use of ferret instead of lion.

>Are you able to give a flavour as to how you used it? I just
>can't comprehend the fearsome use of ferret instead of lion.

Many shapeshifters will cycle through their lower level
forms to avoid summoning/targeted spells.

Tirach's deer example below was one of the things I was thinking of.

Qaledus' is another, and other motives along those lines of thinking.

It can depend on the foci. For example, all first water forms have an "advantage" vs. most other water forms that anyone who's played a water shifter seriously has probably noticed.

shape deer
forage
revert

:D

One of the most powerful forms in the game...

Or my skunk... Was soo nice... Could stink people with it... Used it when I had enough protections against people to make sure they did not hide on me when slapping them with my monkey..

I understand what you say, but I just found it a tad extreme since the same warrior which soloed a frost giant alone earlier, stood behind the hero shifter to help dish the damage.

I am not talking about damage output, the alligator has nice damage all in all, but it doesn't survive very well all in all.

I was just a little set back when a player 20 levels under the shifter fought a hooded mob better then a hero shifter with offense form... Hence puzzled :)

A different offense form would not have had the same probs as the alligator..

And as a side note, when I play utility I use all forms at hero, but not by far when i do defence defence or offence defence or the like... Maby as far down as 3rd tier form, but never 2nd or 1st.

I hardly play shifters anymore because I allways hit murphys law when getting my hero forms... Something I least want... like the alligator, mongoose or the like. Support forms... I am a loner, and I will allways be a loner. I am far to clumsy to take any one with me when exploriong hehe.

Thank you for bothering to answer

Im curious, what are those 6 forms? Must have had some nice ones, was one bobcat? or snow fox? perhaps pachyderm or giant scorpion? Im curious as to at hero how you found use for a coyote.

I have used the shaping to other forms to get away from swimto/flyto/summon. But some of these I can't see having a use even as their primary use. I guess what Im getting at, is that a warrior can stack more gear on to be more of a powerhouse, perhaps some enhancements to shifters where they can have a bit more effect on the way their form will perform?

-rulanit-

>The last time I had a hero shifter, I used all six of
>my forms at hero. (Seven if you count unshifted as an extra
>form, and you probably should.) That's with some forms that
>players at the time were deleting if they got. There's
>versatility and strength in milking your variety of forms for
>all you can, and if you choose not to use it, you might as
>well be chopping your own arm off before starting the boxing
>match.

Were you a utility major? Otherwise, I can't see using the first two offensive or defensive forms for much, really. Maybe if you were going for the crush vs. bite damage exploit, but even then it seems a bit sketchy.

I play shifters because I love the class itself. Ive played almost everything there is on the mud. And Ive had fun with alot of it. However I do not think the class as a whole is weak. Im some instances it has strengths that are great compared to others. Which is as it should be as you say. But when I have a hero shifter prepped and ready to go, and meet a warrior unprepped Id really want to be kicking his ass. But when Im even then in a standup fight get my ass handed to me, and I have attempted to revert and fumble, use wands and so on, but that makes it worse, as I have no way to lag him or her, also as it should be, and fumble even through a flurry he/her manages to pick up weapons. Even having gone to the extreem of walking with a healing pendant to survive such encounters so I might use every notch of knowledge agaist players so I could win, but still there are only a few one manages. This is ofcourse not playing the all inspiering air/off shifters.

Now my beef comes up when a warrior 20 ranks lower than me hits harder, dodges better and kills mobs better than me. Im starting to wonder then wow he must have some insane hero set. When I then look at the fella ite at best mediocore. Or I could gather the same set in say an hour or two at most. Is this right? I dont want to be a warrior while I play a shifter. But Id shure as hell want to be able to hold my own against one if I was on even grounds. And using the skills/spells the class has inherently. And Ive played enough warriors to know the class enough that I know its weaknesses. And all of the changes I suggested would not make a shifter any uber class, more playable yes, harder to fight yes. But honestly Ive played enough shifters to be saying that none of the changes I suggested would make them insane uberkillers.

As you mentioned the difficulties of a warrior, one quick browse at the pbf you easily spy what classes are able to land kills. And the immortals of the mud can say for pretty certain them that manages the most kills. Class wise. And if you tell me shifters are on the top, Ill take a bow and stop playing.

And I hope really hope that what Ive written is not concidered a whine as you so elequantly put it. If Im unhappy about a form I get, I usually get it out in the game, I dont come and say this form is ####ty and this form is ####ty and so on. I hoped to put a good example out there, nothing more.

Anyhow thanks go out to the endless hours the staff has put into this game. I love it still after 10+years.

Ya, prepped to the gills.

I fought the same guy last night and didn't hit him with my primary (iron) wield once. He parried everything.* Ended up having to flee.

*Yes, I know, disarm. I will next time. Was expecting the fight to be a walk-over so I tried spam lagging.

Not so well against the melee classes. Not sure how you didn't touch him though. You have a skill that bypasses defenses, and if I recall correctly, shifter skills never miss.

Actually you're wrong. Shifter skills do miss.