How does something like that work indoors?? Seems wrong and a bit out of place.

Lack of fun was the main reason I deleted Karvesh, that and of course
the fact that I couldn't stand the idea (Despite wanting leader spot)
that I would have to play more hours or die 20 extra times over the
average lifespan because of leader age/con.

It's clear to me that venting frustrations about the game has for most
has become preferable over actually playing the game. Consider this,
this thread has been up for four days and has 52 (53!) posts. Undaraxyl
age died a lich with over 1200 hours and his death thread has half of
that, that speaks of a clear lack of enthusiasm for what should be a
highlight of the game. All that energy is instead being directed to
long sprawling threads that are essentially negative (Though not by-
intention or purpose.)

CF was/is awesome and I'll get the itch to play again eventually, that
said at 21 with no wife and no kids and the only hard time constraint
being a full time job, if I'm going to waste a couple hours of my free-
time on a week night I'd rather just play Skyrim for the 8th time.

I'm certain that feeling is sympathetic of quite a few people here.

Now the IMMs are going to have to tailor CF to this younger crowd.

The Common Area


A cloud giant bouncer floats through the Inn.
An old gnome, carrying a tray of drinks over his head, dances his way through the common area.
A grizzled dwarven mercenary sits at a table examining some artifacts.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 42%mv 1370tnl (42.92%) 3 PM> s
The Bar of the Eternal Star


A stout dwarf bouncer hefts his cudgel and looks for trouble.
A huge, fat man looks distracted as he passes out drinks.

civilized <100%hp 100%m 42%mv 1370tnl (42.92%) 3 PM> list
The shop's hours are 12 AM until 11 PM.
The shopkeeper will purchase: drink container food

Item (Type)
< 1 25> a chocolate bat (food)
< 1 3> a shimmering jack-o-lantern cookie (food)
< 1 32> a tender leg of lamb (food)
< 1 31> a Happy Meal (food)
< 1 75> drakes-head key (key)
< 1 80> Hawaiian punch (drink container)

Seriously, I'd like to discuss it and see how to stick around for 1200hrs.

I didn't really interact with him/her other than a couple failed
assassinations so I never cared about getting the PBF. Assumed
someone else would.

or a thinly-veiled game balance complaint.

For the latter, I'm sure everyone has had their pet peeves with CF game mechanics. E.g. for me it was deathblow, insects, and assassinate. If I learned to survive them all, so can you.

I view Blood Tribunal as a cabal for newbies. They have easy access to very strong powers without much work put in. A magistrates don't have to reraid and still have almost all their powers avaliable when raided. Newbies become Provosts and Provincials more often.

Outlanders on other hand is a cabal for more advanced players. To get any prep you must know a places where to get something to barter for, then go and barter. They have to plan things better because they cannot just use a healer to heal to full health as easy and as fast. I'm not even saying about AI, which i (the one who played CF already a lot) don't even know.

Outlanders powers are a bit stronger, but it's much harder to play one. So a bit better powers + usually more skilled players = Outlander win this war more often than not.

HOWEVER when there are two or three skilled players in Blood Tribunal then Outlanders are often without powers and cannot even think about retriving vs four - six lieutenants and 2-3 skilled players.

Though Lately because of the Iiea and now Tebor a Magistrates have hard time. I'm sure it's good enough reason to quit CF :)

Guess I am a total newbie... Based on some of your comments you may be the newbie:P

"I view Blood Tribunal as a cabal for newbies. They have easy access to very strong powers without much work put in."

What strong power do they have?

Where can they use it?

What can they use it against?

The guards do no damage to players who are prepped and of equal level. If you are taking massive damage then you are a derpy derp newbie yourself.

"HOWEVER when there are two or three skilled players in Blood Tribunal then Outlanders are often without powers and cannot even think about retriving vs four - six lieutenants and 2-3 skilled players."

This statement is true in regards to any cabal when it gets numbers and any cabal raiding against another cabal to recover. Defenders make it harder. Tribunal guards don't restrict your moment and or stop recall, teleport.

Switch the cabal names around and your statement is still applicable. Outlanders have pets they can call as well. However there are a few people who can insect swarm you. They are also free to attack you outside of their cabal like every other cabal.

I've never experience a item retrieval where the outlanders couldn't get there item back. Only people I ever saw die were people who died to Grasdraals poison. Well that and I killed Tebor once... HE was wanted. Then I watched him solo recover against me against my auta attacks + guards while not wanted. I couldn't attack him in Galadon after he fled.

Maybe this is true "IF" you have a wanted flag. That being the only case. If not wanted all you need to do is attack do some damage, flee. Sit just outside the spire on high road and heal back up. Then attack again, flee, heal attack... Tribunal players can NOT follow up an attack on the spire and chase the person because they flee into a protected town. You get away free and clear.

I've watched players do this time and time again. Usually they are barons. Figures the crazy ones are the smart ones to.

You can't do this when trying to retrieve from outlanders. There is no immediate flee into a safe room. One could recall if not obstructed.

If there is 1 outlander defending, recovering is substantially harder.

NT

Tell you what you roll and necro trib and i'll roll a necro trib with you...

I'll say that among the (five) characters I played to age death, Tribunal leads.

I was a hair away from 100 retrieval’s against opposition when I deleted. Most of those were against multiple defenders and without any help. I found it took about 5 people to actually deny a retrieval effort by a lone arial sword spec.

A lot of those retrieval’s were against outlander with the hunt/insects in play. Sure I died occasionally but it was still pretty rare. A lot of folk simply don’t have the balls to engage in high risk encounters and as such they declare them more impossible than they really are.

A good tip is if you log without your item to make a bee line to retrieve. With the exception of fort/trib you can often succeed before defenders even have a chance to get back.

If you are going to eat hunt/insect and entangle bring healing and refresh preps. Keep a level head, there are civilized rooms not far from the tree and you can burn the clock.

Also when I played a necro there is a locked room summon trap in Prosimy, pick them off as they try to get to the tree.

Never knew bout that locked room. Oh well, could of used that when I had a character:P Where were you when I needed that info?!

Also never said it was impossible to recover from outlander with a defender. Its just more difficult when compared to Tribunal. Burned through a lot of orbs.

I too once thought Tribunal was supposed to be competitive in the PVP sense as a cabal.

It isn't.

This realization has saved me from the frustration of ever rolling a Tribunal again.

Guildsitting. Bleh.

Over my stint as Provost the majority of inductions fell into two trains
of thought. The first being Vindy wannabes and the second being explorers who
weren't interested in being on duty ever.
The obvious, probably only real benefit of trib is having a safe place where you can
if nothing else make anyone who comes after you wanted. Considering most
magistrates are either evil or some kind of mage that's a good way to
avoid anyone pressing since A, most goodies are rightly wary of killing
goodie guard npcs and B, being wanted is inconvenient for newbie zerkers
to deathblow your face.

I've played more Tribs than anything else and while it can be a very
boring cabal in practice it can also have much nuance and make for
interesting role development. That probably applies more to goodies
than anything else though.

Just two active outlanders are defending their powers and justifying their actions. Nothing new here, move along.

Let's talk about improved flee.

Firstly I will respond to a few things:

Insects:
I don't particularly have a big issue except in a few cases and when
facing multiple opposition I can think of a few things far worse than
insects.

Raiding the tree:
When I played Vramun, I could down the spirit more often than not in
one go, depending how I prepared. If I just used stoneskin it would
take me two goes. If I used a bit more I could certainly do it in one.
So I as a bit surprised with the ability to heal and sanc that you
would need so many attempts.

However having said this and I think I eluded to it on my farewell, if
I had the choice of solo raiding the tree OR fighting a criminal on
the destructor who could entwine. I would pick the fight at the
destructor every time, and the destructor is not exactly a push over.
Particularly when you are entwined on it.

The biggest imbalance to me in raiding the tree, is just how much the
spirit does
- Nerfs movement
- Decent damage output
- Nerfs mana regen
- Supps that do continued damage
- - Thorn heart etc
- Primodial vengance
- Insects

One of these things in isolation is not so bad, but all of them
together is terrible. Particularly the insect side of things and just
how far you need to run to be able to find a way out, through terrain
where any defender 100% is going to track you down. Plus all the other
home ground advantages like a forest that is a mini maze so if you get
dirt kicked or flee you need to stumble around a bit to get out, not
to mention deadfall etc.

The home ground advantage that Outlanders have in defending a raid is
far to much when the risk of insects from the spirit is tied into that
equation. I personally think this should be removed from the spirit
and it might liven up cabal wars a bit more. There is a reason why
one of the more deadly AP's in recent history got killed by a lone
defender while raiding the tree and what the spirit did (Insects) is
what largely made that possible.

Spire powers:
I found the Spire powers to be huge (I realize different builds) for
me it was extremely rare that a wanted person would even bother trying
to get their item back. And as provost a lot of the time I didn't even
need to entwine or apply manacles, an old fashioned bash down was
good enough with guards.

Well you nailed the nail right on the head.

You forgot bearcharge:P


I am assuming you are Luci, if not disregard sorta?

I never saw luci kill anyone anywhere, doesn't mean it happened. I also think you played with provost guards for the near entirety of your time as Tribunal. Your memory of how good they are might be a bit skewed when you compare them to standard tribunal guards. If you are not luci disregard:P

Shield spec paladin has no damage output 1 hit every 2-3 rounds on average without haste. Damaging skills hit once every 8-9 rounds. Usually a miss. Actually hits from the skills are low damage. Demolish or Devestate for damage on a 3 round skill.

Once I got provost guards raiding was easy for everyone. Raiding without provost guards was not doable with my dps as shield spec

I advise reading everything :)

Raiding the tree:
When I played Vramun

I was vindicator most of my life which means the guards didnt last to long in the tree.

I dont want to read everything cause I am tired...or lazy..or both.

Was being a tribunal more fun as a vindicator or was it more fun as a normal magistrate?

You did not gear for it and if you put up essence of temperance that would further reduce it.

Gear to a 50/60 dam roll and grab avg 27+ weapons that hit vuln or at least avoid resistance and you will see a big difference. I admit the low mana pool on storm paladin can be tricky though.

I had 42 damage unbuffed. With frenzy and call to arms figure out where I was...

You are making an assumption that I always had essence of temperance up all the time. Hate to tell you but I stopped using it because of the neg affect from it. My hit damage was great. My hits per round were a joke. 1 hit every 2 rounds. My skills hit once every 8 rounds.

Thanks for playing.

Vindicator was fun yes, but it didn't overly change my play style.

I tried to be aggressive against criminals and even as Provost I did
this. Here is a great case in point:

http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,1110260,1110260#msg-1110260

Was I booted off duty for 3 days (Or what ever it is)?
Yes I was
Would I have done it again?
Absolutely
Would I have taken the head if I did got again?
Hell yes I would have, and I would have killed them over and over as
they tried to retrieve. Damn career criminals!
And if I got pulled up on it?
I am the Provost RESPECT MY AUTHORATA!
(Who knew Vramun was just a little fat kid from South Park!)

From the observation I had in game it seemed like you spent most of
your time in Galadon, and I am more than happy to be corrected on
this. For me atleast if you wait for something to happen and nothing
does happen well thats a recipe for getting bored. I think amongst the
current crop of Tribunals there are a few that are having an absolute
blast and most of them are doing a fair balance of on/off duty.

How can something like that work to begin with?

Also why shouldn't it work indoors? There are bugs and insects all over and the Spire also has windows and doors etc.

It's not like cloud of wasps where terrain makes a big difference.

Outlander does have a big advantage over trib.

In practice, it is really easy for an Outlander to leave town when manacled or sequestered.

It is not easy for a trib to leave the wilds.

The spirit is probably the toughest inner with the possible exception of the watcher who is super rough on communers.

Personally I think the cabal wars would be a lot better if trib guards won't enter the prosimy and outlanders can't insect in civilized.

Exception is that the spirit is too easy for necromancer with army. It should target the necromancer more.

Pretty sure the reuse timer on insects used in civilzed is something like 20 ticks whereas using it in the wild you can do it every few ticks. Thats a pretty substantial impact on the caster.

The arguement of Outtie v Trib should be perfectly balanced is silly because the dogma of the two cabals is different. At their very core, Outlander has the ambition of destroying civilization and anything that represents it. At its very core Tribunal doesn't care about Outlander, they care about protecting the cities. The powers of the cabals reflect that philosophy in a sword v shield manner.

The success rate in the city or indoors is roughly 1/3 that of someplace favorable, and the recast timer is 5-8x longer.

"Tribunal doesn't care about Outlander, they care about protecting the cities."

Odd comment being that outlander cabal is 1 of 2 that the Tribunal can attack without losing powers for 3-4 days. That statement is very flawed given the game is mostly about attacking your enemy to kill them or take away their powers/gear etc. Sorry to pick at it in the normal internety forum way. Its an odd lopsided setup that is a bit broken. Its reflected in the activity of the players in each cabal. Both in general PVE/PVP ways. My odd observation cause I like to sit on my ass in my guild... The numbers are very skewed towards that cabal. Type Cabal. Look at PVP numbers etc. I'm sure you guys have data on this.



"The powers of the cabals reflect that philosophy in a sword v shield manner."

This is ultimately the problem, who are you talking about in regards to having the sword or shield?
**There is no "shield" for a tribunal who is outside of town! Their shield..or guards is easily turned against them inside town.
**there is a "shield" for an outlander who is in the woods
they can hide. They also have pets and damaging spells and can dispel which also gives them a "sword".
***There is a "shield" for the outlander who is in town seeing how they can turn the guards of a tribunal against them. They can insect in town as well. I guess in your comparison that is maybe a sword. Which is interesting they get a sword in an area that is not natural for them.
****Where is the tribunal sword? Most cabals get an offensive and defensive ability. Tribunal gets a sword against a criminal, but that is special case power... Is there a special case for outlander... No not really since there #### works indoors in cities. Almost forgot about manacles, but wait my handcuffs vanish when I leave town. Reason why my gf is mad, she likes to be tied up and we live just outside town... Again special case power.

*****Disregarding cabal items being there or not. Who can be disarmed and who can be deshielded? When and where.. Think about that.

By comparison insects,spores,thornheart or tripidation don't "magically vanish" when I step into a city after i have fought the spirit.

Yet Tribunal guards instantly vanish when a magistrate is chasing a criminal out of town. Shouldn't there be a decay timer on that instead?

I don’t know if you knew this but many guard mobs will automatically attack criminals. And all of the cities are chock full of them. And you can summon some. And if one gets turned the other can rescue you or you can just cal a new set because the call timer is neglible. Subvert has a high fail rate(or maybe not but it is a bitch of a skill to improve) and has a much longer reuse timer that starts if they succeed or not. You should always have the advantage as a trib in that regard.

You can also assist directly out of range with guards and manacles.


You don’t need cabal powers to take the fight out of the city. That few tribs take that course is more of a player decision.

Really I think your challenge is tied to your individual skill in battlefield management and general PK. Focus on improving that and you may understand the situation better. Paladin is a good class to learn because you can afford to be really reckless and still survive. Just don’t expect to land a lot of kills without help as that’s the weakness of your class, you are an unstoppable force, not an inescapable menace.

You are sorte diving into a path that has nothing to do with the initial point of the thread.

My point of this thread was about abilities that should not be usable in an area that seems a bit out of place.

Also city guards, tribunal guards, conscription do no damage to people who can defend themselves.

You can't have it both ways. Short version, if you want to focus on mechanics instead of trying to understand the undertone and "why" of this is because thats how its coded and every discussion is essentially a deadend using that logic.

At a certain point, for the sake of player enjoyment, there are adjustments into the way mechanics are tied into cabal dogma. Whether or not mechanically speaking you can raid Outlander with no consequences of losing powers, the Tribunal cabal (in basic dogma terms) does not actually care about whether or not the Outlander cabal exists. The sole purpose of the Tribunal cabal is to defend people in cities or hunt criminals in cities. That is exactly why their powers stop working when they leave the cities.

At its base level of dogma, Outlander cares greatly to destroy civilization and anything that represents it. That is why their powers are multi-function giving them greater tools in the wild but also powerful tools to destroy tokens of civilzation.

Manacles don't just vanish when you leave town. Trepidation actually is impacted by being in civilized terrain vs being in the wilds. Thornheart isn't even an outlander power so I'm not sure why you mentioned it here.

The notion of sword v shield isn't mean to be taken in the sense that both have a sword and a shield in each situation that may arise, it is that Tribunals powers based on dogma are rooted in defense of cities (shield) while Outlander powers are rooted in destruction of civilization (sword).

If you haven't done it, I think you should play an Outlander sometime. The field isn't nearly as one sided as you seem to believe it is.

A tribunal can't manacle a criminal out of town. That was my point, not that the manacles vanish because the wanted person left town. Makes zero sense that is a skill not useable out of town. I guess I need some windows and doors.

"At a certain point, for the sake of player enjoyment" 300+ Hours on screlpth 5+ hours a day and the enjoyment factor became non existent because of these grotesque imbalances.

Outlander or at least sylvan warder powers are based upon ambush... Taken from a play style of 2 druids. One named Olnev which was me and another that I can't remember the name of. Outlander powers aren't much different then the warders. So yes I know the history...

Not much has really changed between those two cabals. The outlanders just got a huge buff do to adding evil character classes and a bunch of utility crap... The tribunal powers never got an adjustment. Thats a problem in my book, but what do I know.


"If you haven't done it, I think you should play an Outlander sometime. The field isn't nearly as one sided as you seem to believe it is."

I had a pledged 51 elf invoker I was going to put into outlander. Problem is the cabal has substantially higher player count and active player base. So I opted to just let him idle. Playing an outlander isn't going to show me anything other then yes I am in a cabal with POWERS I can use... Playing that character and grouping with outlanders I never say the disadvantage. Just the benefits.


Regardless I deleted my characters and am done with CF, fun factor is gone! Primarily because I see the same thing happen again and again. It was the same issue when I played Itham. Tribunal basically not being able to stop criminals. The cabal numbers/PVP starts etc are very lopsided not in favor of Tribunal. I rarely see a criminal taken down or stopped by Tribunals. Add in the fact its boring to play then you have a lame cabal.

The boring factor and or just how fun it could actually be became more apparent to me when I got Provost. Will go into that when my delete goes through.

When tribs are not effective then criminals run rampant. When they are,people avoid getting wanted, so there are few to hunt.

I've played lots of tribs, outties, and non outtie criminals.

Main weakness of guards is that you can beat them to the punch, which means it's not that hard to run past them or land a deciding skill on the trib if you are one of a number of classes.

I still think that Outlander has a huge power advantage in general, partly because of chamo. But lieutenants can make it stupid in the other direction if allowed to the tree.

And frankly, a reuse timer on a skill like insects is not that relevant for many classes of victim, because they won't survive that first application. When most people land a kill per four hours or less, a reuse timer because a lot less significant. It's all about sealing the spread out kills better these days.

>I've played lots of tribs, outties, and non outtie
>criminals.
>
>Main weakness of guards is that you can beat them to the
>punch, which means it's not that hard to run past them or land
>a deciding skill on the trib if you are one of a number of
>classes.
>
>I still think that Outlander has a huge power advantage in
>general, partly because of chamo. But lieutenants can make it
>stupid in the other direction if allowed to the tree.
>
>And frankly, a reuse timer on a skill like insects is not that
>relevant for many classes of victim, because they won't
>survive that first application. When most people land a kill
>per four hours or less, a reuse timer because a lot less
>significant. It's all about sealing the spread out kills
>better these days.

Outlander definitely has a power advantage.

Excellent point on insects. The reuse timer could be ten times as long, and it doesn't matter, because once a trib is hit with insects in the city, they're either going to end up dead or they're going to be out of the picture until the scales are taken.

In the current situation that is occuring (current outtie leaders and the OP being the relevant pieces to the equation) do you honestly mean to tell me that you think that a single ranger vs a shield paladin with lieutenants in the Spire is actually something that is problematic?

Currently there are only 2 chars on the mud with insect swarm and they are both rangers (I haven't logged in yet today to see if there is a 3rd leader or not so that statement might be incorrect). If a shield paladin with lieutenants is dying to a lone ranger in civilized because of insects then I have a pretty strong belief that even without insects, the pk would be landing because of a gap in player skill.

If the root of the problem lies in the fact that it is a lone tribunal vs multiple Outlanders raiding them, then again, the issue doesn't lie with insect swarm but in the fact that Outlander is the current FotM cabal. We generally won't change how things function just because of a pendulum swing.

On a tangent to the pendulum, just a litle bit ago everyone was carrying on about how cry of the phoenix is the most broken thing ever.... its amazing how quick no one gives a crap about a generally mediocore power when there isn't an awesome dude melting your face with it.

BTW did you know I deleted all my characters? Little stupid things just get old and ruin the fun. FYI tribunal characters are not the only thing I played. I see it happen to others, I experience it...Exhausted time to stop.

At this point I just give up because the game isn't going to change. It is what it is. That's ok. I realize at this stage its really just around for nostalgic reasons. I am happy that people still try to keep the mud up and running and providing a fun experience for people. I had some fun the past 9 months or so.

Anyways...

My initial complaint was about that very very very specific location. The spire, specifically the atlar which I think its 60 feet in the air. Indors and a civilized area. The heart of and pinnacle of the Tribunals powers! 300 hours on Itham, Tribunal provincial and 330 hours on Screlpth, Tribunal Provost. I never once was insected until I got insected at the Tribunal Altar. It was just odd that it happened there. Again I find that very very very very very specific location odd for a nature based ability to work.



Its all the questionable dumb stuff that adds up and the game becomes unfun. This thread was a contributing factor in my decision. Other threads I was just reading were a contributing factor, I just sorta see a lot of unhappy people bitching. As a professional game dev of 20 years. I've experienced the happy and bitchy side of products I've worked on. Its made me quit jobs and decide to go work at other studios. Life is short, finding your happy place is important.


CF had 5 cabal leaders deletes this month, lost count of the players that deleted. 3 open spots fortress for a loooong time. 1 open spot battle. 2 provost deletes for tribunal. Emperor and dread lord deletes in empire. Woo woo! Pretty sad actually. I can't picture it being fun for the imms trying to keep cabals going.

Me trolling:

Make tribunal worse then orcs in terms of cabal raiding. Thats my suggestion. Take away the spire. Take away their item of power and make it so they can't directly take another cabals. Your general point of view is they aren't a cabal that is meant to be in cabal wars. They only should focus on criminals. Make them lose their powers if they attack or kill a non wanted person anywhere anytime. If they keep doing it lets kick em out. LETS GO HARD CORE ON THIS!!! Sounds fun.

Also lets let the leader kick people out who don't say hi to him. Lets also give him imm exp for doing it. LOL at the imm who did that and god I am sorry for the thief that got anathema'd. Keep in mind I don't know the full story, but thats all I got from the character sheet. That imm needs to go bye bye.

I've interacted with you somewhat, and understand your frustration since you were often matching up against some rather unfair battles. And as a paladin magistrate with little or no backup, it can be frustrating because all they need to do is chip away and wear you down, while they have all the power in getting to pick and choose when to fight. You can't exactly take the fight to them by yourself in their own terrain.

This isn't a new problem. I'm somewhat of a serial Tribunal guy, both as a standard street cop and occasionally as vindicator/justiciar/provost. I've gotten beat down just as badly, but also beat the outlanders down when we had the overwhelming advantage.

The pendulum shifting thing mentioned earlier is really relevant. Overpowered foes get tired of having nobody to fight and eventually get bored and go play something else too. If you're not having fun, taking a break can mean a completely different landscape by the time you come back.

Its something we've all simultaneously hated and loved about the game where there's no telling who will be in power tomorrow. Think about giving things another shot here after you've had some time to cool down and let some time pass. There's no rush, and no hurt feelings, CF will probably still be waiting for you 20 years from now.

I am not mad. I've had my wins and losses. I don't care if I win or lose. I had fun, its not fun now. Its not just this character its the culmination of many things.

I've played everything in every cabal and its just sorta meh at this point. I played cf when it first started. Paladin scourging ragers as they raid. Old times... I played for years n years. I fought in the arena to be the first emperor. I played for a year after that and stopped. 10 years time maybe, not sure? Returned after a 15 year break..I've been around:P

You are right its not a new problem. It has literally been an issue for 15 years or more. It started when sylvan warders were made...The issue was less apparent with a peak player base of 110+ people at once. Now with a peak player base of 24ish peeps many of the game mechanics just don't work.

However I see no effort into finding a fix or attempts at trying to find a resolution for the severe imbalances. I can understand it because it is not an easy thing to do, specially at this point. Its really just someone imm trying to mellow out the situation by throwing out justifications vs looking at the bigger picture/problem. I get the reasoning for that approach.

** maybe they are working on fixes, but I have no way of knowing that. In video game dev, there are usually announcements of whats to come months ahead in regards to fixes and patches or new content to keep the player base happy. Sucks I deleted right when a new area or something went in, didn't know it was coming.

I just don't have fun with it anymore and there really is nothing that I haven't played in the game that appeals to me. I have never played a shifter or cleric and that's it. Do not want to. I might of gave shifter a shot if there wasn't that whole october shifter forms debacle...

I was actually done after Itham, but wanted to try a shield spec paladin. I should of just stopped after Itham:P

1:53 minutes to kill the lord in mt. kdiana. 1:40 minutes to kill large and enormous crimson dragon to regear after a full loot. Don't care I got full looted. Its just the recovery process is derpy derp now and impossible hard to do. Not how I want to spend my time is an egregious wastes of personal time. . Can't even help other people kill stuff cause there is no way to get the right group comp or you are being harassed by the weirdo who plays 15 hours a day. The game is actually hard to get anywhere with now because there is nobody to do the fun hard stuff with.

Ultimately the biggest nail in the coffin was getting provost and see just how much more fun the cabal was. It made me really frustrated about spending soo much time as a gimpy normal magistrate.

Justiciar and Vindicator network boosted my personal fun factor by 500%+ I would imagine most other Tribunal players would get a kick out of having them as well. I'm literally just reading forums waiting for my damn delete to go through so I can write thoughts on tribunal. I should of just started a new gameplay thread:P

It is fun, as an imm, trying to keep cabals going and fill leader slots. It’s pretty cool since you sometimes get to see a new side of a char that you may have only known in one fashion or another. Plus it gives them a shot to shine, which as an imm who gets invested watching chars I’m a fan of, I get super excited rooting for them! So don’t worry about the funstick at least on my side, I wouldn’t do this if I didn’t enjoy it.

I also don’t feel like going bye bye, but thanks for the advice I guess. :)

-Ish

I didn't say make you go bye bye! I said make the Tribunal worse then orcs in terms of cabal wars. Big difference, you may have missed the sarcasm:P

Oh I meant the Emperor/anathema thing. Not the Tribunal stuff.

I've heard tons of suggestions re: Trib, so I can't take ANY of them as insulting, bwahaha. Instead I just try to focus on making the cabal fun, given that's the only real power I have.

-Ish

Tribunals, but never got too far with them. I remember playing Arbiter and it was so much more fun. Being able to chase criminals and flag in any city. Trib made me feel like the coyote and sheepdog in the roadrunner cartoons once the whistle blew at the end of the day, they just walked away. Didn't seem to really care about their job. Walk out of the city? Off-duty...whatever, criminals. Just my opinion.

To play devil's advocate...

We may disagree with the imms here but it's a civil discussion where they have back it up with a bit of evidence that helps form their view.

To me that's not something that should drive you away even if you disagree?

Also multiple deletions at once can help to refresh the game if players themselves remain.

Gulrom on the other hand may have left but frankly hasn't shown credibility on his way out.

I want commenting on the current situation as I'm currently not free to play.

My comment re balance is more general.


If every trib was a necro and every Outlander an evil healer it would be unbalanced in trib favour, but the general cabal balance is skewed outtie with trib lieutenants retrieving being also less than ideal in the other direction.

The point about cry of the phoenix is that it becomes stronger when the pendulum swings fortress way, because it prevents the underdog picking people off.

I'd sooner see it changed so that it doesn't work unless the fort victim is outnumbered, but if they are outnumbered sends a warning on the fort cabal channel and then allows any fort member to cry with 100 percent success.

It's more about the power being stronger at the wrong times than it is about the strength of the power, if that makes sense?

I wasn't commenting on the current situation as I'm currently not free to play.

My comment re balance is more general.


If every trib was a necro and every Outlander an evil healer it would be unbalanced in trib favour, but the general cabal balance is skewed outtie with trib lieutenants retrieving being also less than ideal in the other direction.

The point about cry of the phoenix is that it becomes stronger when the pendulum swings fortress way, because it prevents the underdog picking people off.

I'd sooner see it changed so that it doesn't work unless the fort victim is outnumbered, but if they are outnumbered sends a warning on the fort cabal channel and then allows any fort member to cry with 100 percent success.

It's more about the power being stronger at the wrong times than it is about the strength of the power, if that makes sense?

I'm coming to this late but I wanted to put a few 2 cents in here.

>**there is a "shield" for an outlander who is in the woods
>they can hide. They also have pets and damaging spells and can
>dispel which also gives them a "sword".

I admit beast call is amazing, but I'm not sure about damage spells (feral rage?) that can be used on anyone beyond conjurer pets or undead. I'm also not specifically aware of a dispel, so now I'm super curious. Insect swarm, which I will get to in a minute as well, is a leader only ability which means you can more easily avoid it or prepare for it knowing that it is.

>***There is a "shield" for the outlander who is in town seeing
>how they can turn the guards of a tribunal against them. They
>can insect in town as well. I guess in your comparison that is
>maybe a sword. Which is interesting they get a sword in an
>area that is not natural for them.

I want to point out that it is entirely important to know which type of enemy you might have at one point with Outlander. Subvert is only available to two of the three paths of Outlander, although admittedly those two paths are the one you will face the most as a paladin in the Spire. As for insect swarm, please see above again in regards to insect swarm only being available to leaders which you can much more easily prepare for.


>By comparison insects,spores,thornheart or tripidation don't
>"magically vanish" when I step into a city after i have fought
>the spirit.

The Spirit is a mean inner, I admit. Especially if someone is there to defend. That being said, I have watched lately a 35 necro kill it solo. It is not that hard to do compared to some of the other inners, i.e. Destructor, Watcher, and even the Executioner who I have had trouble solo raiding against as hero Outlanders because of all the guards piling on you, not to mention with defenders involved. There is always something with a cabal inner, and while the Spirit is mean, so are others.

"Also why shouldn't it work indoors? There are bugs and insects all over and the Spire also has windows and doors etc."

Room flags indoors and civilized

By your logic. Then pillar of heavens should also work in this location. That lightning should curve right on in there from the doors and windows. Specially those windows that I don't think exist.

You are talking about a "significant" enough amount of insects to somehow enter the room and impact someone. I don't see that as a reality in this location.

Insects is good, but in the city you have a serious home field advantage and nothing can take that away. Whereas you can take the fetish and then no insects. Also only 0-3 people have it at any given time.

The whole trib/outie war is unique in that both sides have crazy home field advantages.

They actually do lose powers without the scales. They can just call guards and use vigilance...Maybe that should be changed to.

The balance of power is very lopsided towards outlanders. Most Tribunal powers of use can be negated with ease. Guards can be turned and if you don't have a warrant then you can't be manacled. Giving you no real disadvantage if you need to recover the fetish. I believe the guards actually do less damage to non criminals, but thats a theory...


Powers built around harnessing nature should not be something called upon within a city. Specially within a deep city stronghold...

"Also only 0-3 people have it at any given time."

that is also close to the actual number of active tribunals that actually play or take park in very active pvp. There are a quite a few who just like to hang out...

I would find it interesting if someone would argue against this...Attacking the outlanders cabal is a deathtrap even with 0 defenders.

Anyways getting insect swarmed at the executioner was just weird...

It’s a strong power but it’s still situational, it denies escape methods but that only matters if you can’t just straight win. As a trib just run around through guilds and mob piles, bonus points for getting full loots with hamsah guards. Presently both players who have it are rangers, so stepping into civilized pretty much neuters them. In the spire you have the T you can dance around with the inner in the middle.

The vast majority of the time the power is totally inconsequential since you can use positioning to work around it. And villagers do just fine without word/teleport so you can learn to run properly.

Now that you know it can be called anywhere I am confident that you can make adjustments to counter that. I mean, there isn’t much that is sturdier than a shield temperance paladin, especially one with lieutenant backup anywhere (with or without your cabal item). I mean those things are nastier than pretty much any offensive power with situational exceptions for deathblow and sigil of pain on already high damage builds. Plus they can rescue and absorb a lot of pain and auto attack criminals. I still have nightmares about the double defense provost I tried to fight as a villager, talk about futility.

As far as the danger of inner guardians it depends on your build. The counter to outlander is numbers. It uses single target abilities so spreading that out across charmies makes it easy. As a dreadlord mummy I consistently went from atticking the huntress to having the fetish in less time than it took to go from galadon to hamsah. Another pro tip I guess is knowing that the spirit has protection from metal.

I don't defend as much as you think...Nor is my damage output with guards something worth mentioning...

N there is now a warrior with it... so...

Anyways I think you missed the point.

ok laxman...Make an argument that would make tribunal fun! You wont make an argument that would "make the game as boring as trib" Trib is boring...whats your suggestion to fix it? Or do you just like to troll posts? I'm going to put my ideas up when my delete goes through. However I am done playing CF so there is a part of me that doesn't even want to bother... Some of that is driven by the fact or realization the game is never gone to change.


"It’s a strong power but it’s still situational, it denies escape methods but that only matters if you can’t just straight win."

That's the thing most people don't just straight win fights. It happens, but its not the norm anymore. There is also nothing situational about it. It can be used anywhere and is no different in intended design then curse or damnation, however it is actually better then those two things by many ways. It SHOULD be situational that is my argument from my first post, however again not the case! It should have limitations on where it can be used. It gives player classes in that cabal an ability that denies recall and teleport with no apparent limitations or way to be removed.Its ability to hit/or be applied is the only variable based on location.


Positioning doesn't work when you basically can't move.. If you can't move then you need to teleport word away, but guess what can't do that either given the one thing I was initially bitching about being usable at the tribunal altar. Yay doors and windows. Time to call pest control.

I did make a lot of use of the run from the spire and hide in a guild...run back to spire, flee run back to guild. Do you think that is fun? I don't. It gets old fast and then you stop playing. I rarely died. Getting bored and not giving a crap is the only reason I died. I stayed to defend against 4 outlanders just to see how long I could last... That's the level of bored I hit, it wasn't fun. Chasing people I cant see..yay fun. Bored..delete...done playing.



"As far as the danger of inner guardians it depends on your build. The counter to outlander is numbers. It uses single target abilities so spreading that out across charmies makes it easy. As a dreadlord mummy I consistently went from atticking the huntress to having the fetish in less time than it took to go from galadon to hamsah. Another pro tip I guess is knowing that the spirit has protection from metal."

There is no build that makes raiding as a paladin easier. I am sure that goes for shaman, thieves, warriors and the rest of the classes that are NOT pet centered... I could barely do it with Itham. I had to recall...fully heal and return 2-3 times. Itham had a tremendous amount of offensive damage and tanked better then Screlpth(screlpth had much better gear). I flat out could not do it with screlpth until I got guards. This was 100% guaranteed. I've seen level 40 necros kill the spirit...Does that seem correct to you? Should we all reroll necro if we want to Tribunal and raid?! Doesn't seem right to me. Bad design is bad design.

1. Have your own agenda not linked with being a patrolling cop.
2. PROFIT

If you derive your fun from a lot of pk action then you are going to have to have more character motivation than, defend cities/hunt only wanted. Mechanically your restrictions on hunting are similar to empire (not in protected cities) with the general frown on taking the fight to other cabal areas. Karvesh has a good balance. I would start with not going goody because that is a big limitation. As for fun, if you love talking then trib is a god place, not as safe as being a herald but cities see more traffic.

When I say situational I mean it only becomes a problem if you need magical transportation. As gillador I fought ischer a lot and had insects a lot, but it was generally a wasted command from him because if I wasn’t winning I just walked away. That said I knew it was a possibility so I was cognizant of when and where I fought him.

I also had a night reaver transmuted (grippledank) that used it only 2 times, I had 800 hp and no barrier and couldn’t afford the command because I needed to keep people stun locked and use that time effectively with other spells.


As for raiding cabals most folks doing it solo need to heal up a time or three. Find a way to set a fire to mitigate spores/thornheart.

"If you derive your fun from a lot of pk action then you are going to have to have more character motivation than, defend cities/hunt only wanted. Mechanically your restrictions on hunting are similar to empire (not in protected cities) with the general frown on taking the fight to other cabal areas. Karvesh has a good balance. I would start with not going goody because that is a big limitation. As for fun, if you love talking then trib is a god place, not as safe as being a herald but cities see more traffic."

carrion fields is really only about PVP action at its core. There is not really a frown on Tribunals taking fights to outlanders and Entropy. Its the only cabals they can attack without losing powers.

Problem is most people don't usually play the defend city and only hunt wanted role. I think Ilyana is the only passive character I met who plays that way. I played pvp with everyone with both chars, though with screlpt I let people attack me. Most tribunals that i see who play regularly don't play only hunt criminals.

There is a high desire for fighting with outlanders. Problem is there is no balance between fighting with the two cabals. Overly lopsided towards outlander.

80% plus of the outlander players actively try to kill tribunals. Are the tribunal players just suppose to sit there wait for their butt stretching?

Screlpth wasn't ment to be a big pvp char. I would go out to fight people. The funny thing is hardly anyone would ever attack me. The only ones were you and a few other empire warriors. All of which deleted out of boredom it seems.

The aspect of hunting criminals becomes substantially more fun with vindicator network. Just being a cityguard wanna be becomes fun with Justiciar network. Sadly most people will never experience it. When I got provost I realized just how cool those things were.

My crap tastic fortress 2 hand spec paladin never had to recall out, sit for 10 ticks under water. Fully heal.Then return. Rince and repeat that 3 times... No never happened once trying to raid empire solo.