OK it seems clear that everyone wants more edge points to return that we have currently.

Firstly I understand that previously too many edge points were given for obs/exp and it was being exploited but its seems there could be more returned that what is available to us now.

Secondly pk edge points is the clear missing factor here that the majority wants returned. Is it not possible to return them in a reduced form in a similar fashion that obs/exp were returned?

It seems a no brainer to do this if it means more players will return with more edge points available to them.

Here is a history of edge points given out for reference:

*SO AT JANUARY 2015* (AFTER OBS/EXP WERE HALVED) we could get edge points for:

- TOTAL PK WINS
- PK WINS BY LEVEL TIERS
- SOLO PK WINS AT 40 & 60 KILLS

- REACHING 5000 EXP XP BEFORE L30
- EVERY 1000 EXP XP UP T0 26000 (25 TIMES)

- REACHING 10000 OBS XP BEFORE L30
- EVERY 3000 OBS XP UP T0 31000 (10 TIMES)

- EVERY 1000 COMMERCE XP (20 TIMES)

- EVERY 1000 IMM XP (UNLIMITED)

- REACHING 1500 ROLE XP

- CABAL RETRIEVALS AT 10/25/50/100
- BECOMING A CABAL LEADER

- REACHING HERO / OLD AGE

- GETTING A TATOO / LAST NAME

*AT JAN 2016 PK EDGEPOINTS WERE REMOVED & EXP EDGES WERE HALVED ONCE MORE*

CHANGE - PKS NO LONGER GIVE EDGE POINTS
CHANGE - EVERY 2000 EXP UP TO 40000 (20 TIMES DOWN FROM 25)
CHANGE - LAST NAME NO LONGER GIVES EDGE POINTS

*AT SEPT 2016 ALL OBS/EXP EDGE POINTS WERE REMOVED*

*NOW AT NOV 2017* (AFTER OBS/EXP WERE RESTORED IN A LESSER FORM) we could get edge points for:

- EXP XP OF: 5k, 10k (L30+), 15k (L51), and 30k (L51) (4 TIMES DOWN FROM 25)

- OBS XP OF: 5k, 10k (L30+), and 15k (L51). (3 TIMES DOWN FROM 10)

- COMMERCE XP OF: 7.5k, 15k (L30+), and 30k (L51) (3 TIMES DOWN FROM 20)

- IMM XP OF: 500, 1k, 2k, and 3k (4 TIMES DOWN FROM UNLIMITED)

- REACHING 1400 ROLE XP

- CABAL RETRIEVALS AT 10/25/50/100
- BECOMING A CABAL LEADER

- REACHING HERO / OLD AGE

Big no from me. There was a smug poll from someone asking the playerbase if they wanted PK edgepoints back a little while after they were taken away and the vast majority of people responded they did not want them back. It's exhausting to constantly respond to constant whines for PK edgepoints, that's why you only hear people advocate for their return.

You have to look at this from the fodder's perpsective. The strong get stronger, the weak get nothing. It's absolutely terrible for those who can't pk well. There are still plenty of reasons to PK and to learn to PK well. Not getting extra bonuses for ritually stomping weaklings will not take away from PK skill.

There are currently 3 characters online.

By what name do you wish to be mourned?

Have fun!

Gee, how will I ever refute such a great argument?

NT

The game was almost completely dead in 2014, so your perspective about this is skewed.

I haven't played but 1 or 2 guys since then (2014), I understand the numbers apparently got much better somewhere in late 2015 or early 2016, and it coincided with the rise of new popular imms.

But if the numbers are really massively down suddenly again I see two problems:

1) The CF playerbase is REALLY SENSITIVE and their desire to play the game is seriously affected by what some imms say. (I'll concede the thread locking retard's view is probably in the majority with them though). Same #### in 2014.

The problem I see here is that you guys apparently care about the sum imm opinion of your characters instead of playing to experience interactions with other people who play the game. Half of these guys are literally do-nothings (since they don't seem to even play morts) and you can safely ignore them.

2) Changing popular things isn't good but isn't -that- destructive, but what is destructive is that it gives them more opportunities to have someone say something to piss everyone off, funneling back into problem 1. I can kind of see now why they won't let anyone in the Discord or otherwise.

And when numbers dramatically drop for some reason, in this case outrage, it leads to the classic: nobody plays because nobody plays.

So here's your battleplan...

Players:
If you like CF so much just play the ####ing game and ignore imms, or capitalize on the imms you actually like if you need that side of the game. Forget why you think you suddenly don't enjoy CF because if you think it's edges you can safely discard your own opinion, history doesn't bare that out.

Imms:
Don't let rude morons* talk to the PB at the same time that you're doing something unpopular or not doing something popular that's been done before consistently, especially don't let them lock threads to prevent discussion after they do. See the 'entitlement' tirade for an example.

Of course to do this successfully some of you will have to actually look in a ####ing mirror, which I doubt.

*forget about it, I'm not representing anyone

No, the game wasn't "almost completely dead" before the edge changes in December 2014, IDK where you get this from. I was playing two characters at the time and was routinely logging in to more than 30 players online, at prime US times. Moreover, mudstats shows an _average_ for that period of more than 15 people online.
Nevertheless, arguing against somebody's personal impressions (or worse, memories) isn't really the best way to see this. Rather, I like to think that the edge changes started a cascading process (with second and third order effects that the IMMs didn't seem to worry about at all at the time) which caused CF to cross a cost-benefit threshold for a lot of players, that made it not worth playing.

This happened for me and most of the people I was playing with. End result: We don't play anymore because the current CF is very different to the CF we enjoyed playing for years. Rephrasing this, _too many changes_ that ####ed with _too many enjoyable aspects_ of the game happened in a short period of time, without taking feedback from the playerbase into account. If I had to summarize all of these (detrimental) changes I would say that they took away from players being able to customize and experiment with different builds *on their own* but also
feel like they're making progress towards *something*, character-wise, again *on their own*. It felt great knowing I could log onto the game, at any time, go hunt some enemies (or explore or look at things) and get some points that would let me further extend my character, without any immortal needing to be present to reward me. So, certain people may have taken this to extremes. So really what is the major problem here? CF was always a cutthroat environment and these sort of behaviors make the game better in my view, not worse. The mistaken view that the IMMs had about attracting new players to the game by making it more forgiving has, I think by now, entirely collapsed.

PK edge points were great because they constantly introduced strife and gave people multiple incentives, with the only barrier being their PK prowess. The moment you go in and start trying to police what you see as unacceptable behavior (multikilling for edge farming, obs/exp point farming with scripts) you risk destroying parts of CF that made it self-perpetuating and addictive. At the end of the day, removing these behaviors you so vehemently wanted to regulate against, did not introduce counterweights to the far-more enjoyable aspects of the game that you took away.

You can only #### so much with a homeostatic process before unbalancing it, especially if negative feedback is not introduced into the circuit. And that's the gist of the issue in my view. Repeated IMM posts have painted an image of a shared vision for the game amongst the staff. Vision = ideology. This is fine as long as that ideology does not go against reality, which is cybernetics. Reality rules and if you desperately try to hold on to your vision, you will be eaten by hungry tiger in the jungle.

To end on a positive note, here is a suggestion that builds on everything I've written here before (I'm assuming simply going back to how things were is not an option): Remove all edge point rewards, give every player a certain number of edge points *starting at character creation and progressing at regular level intervals* and let them spend them as they see fit. Don't you think that would be the ultimate incentive to get players back? Would it be as good as the old system? Probably not since it's very sterile. The old system was special sauce, even if flawed. Another reason not to #### with whatever magic you have that you know works.

Additionally, maybe somebody can email Daevryn and Ray and beg them to come back. Nep can cheat his ass off 24/7 for all I care and Ray can reward her followers (and only them) until the cows come home. Strife = good.

http://mudstats.com/World/CarrionFields

I don't know what the average of 16~ says about 30+ players without knowing what the variance is.

I didn't have 30 player logins (rarely even 20 players), but there are enough 2014 logs on the log board with 30+ player who lists for me to believe that. Guess I didn't play prime time.

When some of the imm drama was kicking off it was pretty much empty on my hours. For me it was certainly a dead game, especially in new-CF where people care about ratios so much they reflexively quaff fights they have a reasonable chance to lose before they happen.

Edges came in 2006, got changed in Dec 2014, Jan 2016, Sep 2016, and Nov 2017. I don't really see edges causing any surges up or down here. In general I don't even see much changing at all except the pattern of slow decline, the numerical means are nearly the same as years ago, with a net loss of what looks like 2-3 players.

I don't care about edges or edge points, I'm cool with people just having them. Definitely preferable to having gatekeepers.

I wouldn't want Ray back, not because of rewarding (you got used to it, you knew you were a good evil player if people got rewards for dying to you) but because of meddling. I never really cared about the Nep drama so I wouldn't care if he alone was back.

I think in the long run, what probably set the game on a slow, but steady downhill trajectory was, a lot of things (drama didn't help, edges can be part of it), but mostly because around 2013-2014 we lost almost all at once: Valg, Daevryn, and Zulgh, who were all coders. I think there was also a total crash right around then. But I agree with the sentiment about having people back in general. *edit: And I'll give credit where it's due, a lot of people really liked having Baer around.

Anyway I'm just pushing back against assertions like:
"Reverting edges (and making XP even more easy?) will bring back 40+ players"

Because they're positing a simple answer to a complex problem, and doesn't really seem to correspond to number movements. (Admittedly, my position about player vs. imm rudeness doesn't seem to correspond in the grand scheme of things either.)

There is probably a grain of truth to it but from where I'm looking, while edges seem to make people very opinionated, they don't seem to have much to do with the general direction of the count.

As you said, and I agree, it's a complex multifaceted problem and not just "bring us edges" that's gonna do it. But something has to start an upward spiral and raise momentum cause right now the game is almost at the bottom of the pit, in a downward spiral started by code changes, coders leaving, vets leaving because of changes and others leaving because the game wasn't fun any more (due to aforementioned accumulated effects and who knows what else).

Things that contribute to fun times and could start an upward spiral, based on personal subjective experience:

+ Players feeling like they have enough deterministic or otherwise "perceivably fair" ways to guide the development of their character.
PK/obs/exp edge points are deterministic and perceivably fair. Role-xp and IMM-rewarded edge points are not. Note that I'm not advocating towards removing the latter.
+ Coders adding new stuff, regularly.
+ Coders fixing or reworking broken classes. One reason edges are universally liked, is that they go a long way towards fixing classes that are broken. By making them harder to get, you're forcing us to spend more hours playing broken classes. Or choose to play combos that are not broken thus leading to boredom and monoculture.
+ Coders tweaking existing stuff in interesting ways, regularly (more like Nep and less like Valg/Umiron) generating imbalances in the process. Players love to discover those, get them nerfed then rinse/repeat. Game stays fun.
+ Powerhouse characters, RP/PK/both.
+ Skills like transmute metal to wood that have a transitive, multiplicative effect
on in-game possibilities, imbalances and generate EMERGENT behavior.
+ Same for items (opium pipe, oily wineskin, the stuff that Murphy complains about).

Things that are nice to have but nowhere near as important as previous:

+ Anything that depends on active in-game participation of the IMMs including
IMM-driven quests and IMM-teraction of any kind. Events usually lead to short-term bursts of online players but are not enough to sustain more players regularly playing the game.

Things that are destructive and make me not want to play:

+ Nerfing things to the point of uselessness.
+ Removing things that are well-liked and have stood the test of time in order to satisfy some haphazard idealistic vision. Not thinking long and hard before doing so or simply not caring about cascading effects. Scion out / Scarab in = good. Nexus out / Entropy in = bad. Figure out the whys.
+ Removing sources of EMERGENT behavior from the game.
+ Policing aspects of the game that should be entirely player-driven (Empire, looting, PK)
+ Telling me to change the way I play the game and if I did, I would get used to it, neuroplasticity and
all that. No.

Think I had 6-7 edges on Itham... How many did people use to have or whats the expectation?

Don't really understand the post because it seems possible to get a lot. There were a lot of areas I never saw as Itham so I see have 8 or 9 as a possible.

What is "hard" and what I am experiencing with the latest character is having someone to show me around to places I don't know how to get to in order to get the easy exp.

It did not make me a PK powerhouse, but it made the character so much more comfortable to play. Certain few edges are game-changing and I had them and I can still get them on a new character today, but the rest were quality of life.

Why take the quality of life away?

nt

My ImmXP amount has always been fairly modest, and Einrai is no exception.

He had many edges because he checked all boxes: obs/exp, commerce, retrieval, PK, cabal leadership (provincial), lastname and a decent role (but by no means was it a feature-length novel and I didn't win any RCs).

It's not as if he had 31 edges from birth, too. They were taken throughout his life, which, I must say, added to a sense of progress.

Would he be still fun to play if he didn't have them? Yes and no. My interest in trying out new things was what kept me playing through the low moments, and edges were important for that.

The more you(plural) bring it up the more I want to quit. I am with Rahs, play the game for what it is, not what it was, or might be. You'll be less of a whiny add that way.

Eat #### and don't complain. Don't ask for some sauce at least or return of pasta.

Eat #### or walk away. I'm with Rahs on that.