Pulled a few comments from Dios to spark yet another discussion of assassins on this board too in hopes that someone upstairs keeps an open mind to it. I would add to the ongoing discussion that an argument against assassins being overpowered that I have often heard is "most assassins aren't deadly and don't do well at hero" to which I would respond that less competent players can make any powerful build (assassin with nage waza, STSF elf, giant flurry warrior, duergar warrior, 7 path invoker with all masteries, etc.) look terrible.

Anyone who can write a role, explore a little bit, and level to 51 can get Master of Nage Waza and Ground Fighter, and probably a few other edges. Master of Nage Waza is a ridiculous edge, for reasons that are pretty well documented.

Posts from Dios below:

(saagkri on one reason assassins feel OP - they just have an answer for EVERYTHING, which is in very stark contrast to pretty much every other hiding/ambush class such as thief, assassin, and situationally transmuter, orc, and Outlanders.)
"
in CF memory except for old assassinate (no stalking just % chance success) and forced-dual. Sorry if any of this isn't 100% correct. I've played assassins before, but they need toning down IMHO.

- They can hide better than thieves so they can pick their battles
- Biggest maledicts, fastest application of maledicts
- Most damaging lag move which can also maledict
- Can slow you pre-combat (darts) and during combat (kansetsuwaza, which also maledicts)
- Can break your wrist obviously (kote)
- Can stalk to cut-off fleeing
- Can stalk to assassinate

- Then trance: Haste + 50% dam redux?
- Add to that a trance edge: +400hp? or 100% weapon mastery or etc.
- Can parry with hands
- Also, backfists
- And shield block (It costs 10 thief points to get that on a thief)
- Third attack
- Oh, and tiger claw (thieves earclap sucks and you have to be a thug to take it...and it's after third attack)
- vanish (not that big of a deal, but you sure can catch someone on eastern with it)
- Healing skill
- -save v spell skill
- 1 round lag attack (nerve. So you can go right into throw, etc.)
- Best edges in the game
- Mark (big deal if you know how to use it)
- pick lock (really? They need this?)
- I know I'm missing something

Assassins were coded by someone who like to play assassins. It would be one thing is a class could conceal/heal/melee/defend/get away/track but wasn't the best at anything. But that's not our current assassins.
"

(laearrist on changes over the years that have led to assassins seeming pretty overpowered.)
"
1) Martial Trance

Made Assassins way less squishy at hero. Now most only fight with it up.

2) Dex changes

Harder to beat in melee due to high dex and they can evade direct damage sometimes. Martial trance boosts this. Very hard to bash down tranced assassin, even if you can win the melee. They just don't get perma-lagged consistently

3) Throw + ground control edges

Throw now has 100% success rate. Ground control too? Maybe not, but very high. Both do more damage, and you get more consistent results from ground control. And free throws. And you can throw hand specs and other assassins.

4) No class XP penalty

Now your human/half-elf/half-drow assassin not only has all of the above working for them, but they're also a zero XP penalty stealth class able to easily pick on lower level characters. with 400 XP penalty, you have close to giant PK range. With zero, you are fighting giants 8 ranks below you. Now you get to dominate all through the ranks.

5) Martial Trance edges

Kind of doesn't matter which one, but the one that gives you 100% in all weapons means you no longer have to worry about axes or maces or whatever, which you already worried about less because of dam redux (due to MT) and dex changes (which made those easier to dodge), but now you also parry them like a champ (and can wield them to make your own attacks harder to parry) so you are near par with sword spec level defenses and you have bash + savage feeding. And stealth. And the best maledicts. And built in healing. And cure blind. And area blind/poison. And knockout. And... you get the idea.
"

lags and greatly diminishes moves

simple changes is simple - throw should never allow for perma-lag. -str or -dex is enough of a benefit than using MSK or RPK

Only -dex. Can get -str from GC on owaza though.

Assassins are fine. They have been the aame for the most part for over 20 years. A good player can pk well with any build while lemmings like us cannot dominate with assassins. Sheesh sick of people going on about them.

Even if throw edge was the same, people did not discover its true potential until relatively recent times. Five years ago assassin players were all about assassinate.

Also, assassins lost their class xp penalty, which is huge.

I'm the worst PKer in the land. Such that my best score is something like 13/70.

I played an assassin when they lifted my ban and I was doing so good I deleted. Can't tarnish my reputation you know.

Seriously, it's the ultimate class for PvP and PvE. It's wild.

I grant they have maybe a couple bad match ups. I never ran into them, but if they do, you can just hide and choose not to fight.

20 years ago my assassins were obliterated, because if I stepped out of hiding there was 10 people in range right there to stomp me down immediately. The post combat hide timer meant something. EDIT: Oh an I forgot to mention it was much more likely your target was in a group instead of bumbling around solo. - Plus dex changes.

Hell I'm not even getting into edge mechanics. Let's pretend nothing about the class has changed though. The shifting nature of the game has changed so much as to be enough to swing the needle.

NT

Could be like antigank code: the more assassins fighting, the worse they fight.

Or like the veil: the more assassins in the world, the worse they fight.

Or, y'know, make them able to specialize. So you can focus on stealth, physical or spiritual training. (Everyone would just spec in throw though, if you keep that option open.)

that's why you don't play them.

>Pulled a few comments from Dios to spark yet another
>discussion of assassins on this board too in hopes that
>someone upstairs keeps an open mind to it. I would add to the
>ongoing discussion that an argument against assassins being
>overpowered that I have often heard is "most assassins aren't
>deadly and don't do well at hero" to which I would respond
>that less competent players can make any powerful build
>(assassin with nage waza, STSF elf, giant flurry warrior,
>duergar warrior, 7 path invoker with all masteries, etc.) look
>terrible.

For the record, I...reasonably recently (ie: no major changes
since I did one) played a (albeit rager) assassin. I repeatedly
got my ass handed to me. Same thing happened the assassin I tried
way, way before that. Admittedly, I don't tend to load up on
edges, and almost certainly didn't have any martial edges, but the
biggest problem I ran into was direct damage. Assassins just
don't have a ton of hp (and as rager no prep), and I'd just run
out of HP *real* fast.

>Anyone who can write a role, explore a little bit, and level
>to 51 can get Master of Nage Waza and Ground Fighter, and
>probably a few other edges. Master of Nage Waza is a
>ridiculous edge, for reasons that are pretty well documented.

I've been involved in some discussions in the past, and some of
the consensus was Nage Waza does *way* more than it should. If it
did like...any *one* boost it does, it'd probably be appropriate.

>Posts from Dios below:
>
>(saagkri on one reason assassins feel OP - they just have an
>answer for EVERYTHING, which is in very stark contrast to
>pretty much every other hiding/ambush class such as thief,
>assassin, and situationally transmuter, orc, and Outlanders.)
>"
>in CF memory except for old assassinate (no stalking just %
>chance success) and forced-dual. Sorry if any of this isn't
>100% correct. I've played assassins before, but they need
>toning down IMHO.
>
>- They can hide better than thieves so they can pick their
>battles

Yes, but not as quickly. I had always been of the opinion their
"quick city hide" could stand to be wilderness length recovery.

>- Biggest maledicts, fastest application of maledicts

I'll give ya this.

>- Most damaging lag move which can also maledict

Does no one remember pincer anymore? Double-spin kick? But yes, the lag-rate's better, and it's probably most damaging of the 2 round lag skills. Also, one of the biggest *failings* of throw is
that you can't start a fight with it. Of course, that's where the
trip/throw someone running down the road comes in, or nerve later.

>- Can slow you pre-combat (darts) and during combat
>(kansetsuwaza, which also maledicts)
>- Can break your wrist obviously (kote)

In all of these cases, yes, they can do it, and honestly I *hated*
hitting the scream kansetsuwaza, because guaranteed that's when
the other guy is peacing out.

>- Can stalk to cut-off fleeing
>- Can stalk to assassinate

>- Then trance: Haste + 50% dam redux?

False. Trance does not give haste.

>- Add to that a trance edge: +400hp? or 100% weapon mastery or
>etc.

>- Can parry with hands
>- Also, backfists

Honestly, I find the offense bonus more useful than these.
Trying to *parry* those assassin punches sorta stinks.

>- And shield block (It costs 10 thief points to get that on a
>thief)

Useful, but hardly the point anyone's griping about. Most "OP"
situations are the assassin out-damaging warrior-dude, etc. That
said, I do think the skill doesn't *greatly* fit the theme of the
class, and removing it might actually give them a *little* bit of
a paper to their generally-dominating rock. (Less defense while
they try to maledict people)

>- Third attack
>- Oh, and tiger claw (thieves earclap sucks and you have to be
>a thug to take it...and it's after third attack)

They've had tiger claw for like...15 years. They've actually had their dual wield and third attack skills moved *later* than they used to be, to even out the low levels a bit.

>- vanish (not that big of a deal, but you sure can catch
>someone on eastern with it)
>- Healing skill
>- -save v spell skill

These have all been around for like...20 years. They haven't been
out of whack before, don't think they are now.

>- 1 round lag attack (nerve. So you can go right into throw,
>etc.)

That was handy, and I personally would be down with sure, nerve is
one round lag, but you still can't *START* a fight with it. That
seems to be what everyone picks the edge for, not for more nerving.

>- Best edges in the game

I might argue that. There's some awesome orc edges. Conjurer edges. APs have some crazy edges. Hell, there's more insane druid edges than I know what to pick. The problem with assassins
is they have *ONE* edge that *probably* needs looked at, and a lot
of mid-priced edges that boost useful skills.

>- Mark (big deal if you know how to use it)
>- pick lock (really? They need this?)
>- I know I'm missing something

Again, been around for like...15-20 years.

>Assassins were coded by someone who like to play assassins. It
>would be one thing is a class could
>conceal/heal/melee/defend/get away/track but wasn't the best
>at anything. But that's not our current assassins.

Well, they are that. They have more versatility hiding, but can't
move and stand concealed in the woods, and don't get to return to
hiding as quickly afterwards. They have *one* small heal every
few hours, melee on par w/ APs, but much few weapon options.
Their "better than" skills are designed for the "I will find you,
and I will kill you" abilities. Mark, stealth approach, etc.

>(laearrist on changes over the years that have led to
>assassins seeming pretty overpowered.)
>"
>1) Martial Trance
>
>Made Assassins way less squishy at hero. Now most only fight
>with it up.
>
>2) Dex changes
>
>Harder to beat in melee due to high dex and they can evade
>direct damage sometimes. Martial trance boosts this. Very hard
>to bash down tranced assassin, even if you can win the melee.
>They just don't get perma-lagged consistently
>
>3) Throw + ground control edges
>
>Throw now has 100% success rate. Ground control too? Maybe
>not, but very high. Both do more damage, and you get more
>consistent results from ground control. And free throws. And
>you can throw hand specs and other assassins.
>
>4) No class XP penalty
>
>Now your human/half-elf/half-drow assassin not only has all of
>the above working for them, but they're also a zero XP penalty
>stealth class able to easily pick on lower level characters.
>with 400 XP penalty, you have close to giant PK range. With
>zero, you are fighting giants 8 ranks below you. Now you get
>to dominate all through the ranks.
>
>5) Martial Trance edges
>
>Kind of doesn't matter which one, but the one that gives you
>100% in all weapons means you no longer have to worry about
>axes or maces or whatever, which you already worried about
>less because of dam redux (due to MT) and dex changes (which
>made those easier to dodge), but now you also parry them like
>a champ (and can wield them to make your own attacks harder to
>parry) so you are near par with sword spec level defenses and
>you have bash + savage feeding. And stealth. And the best
>maledicts. And built in healing. And cure blind. And area
>blind/poison. And knockout. And... you get the idea.
>"


I do think these are all factors which have shifted things in
favor of assassins, but I don't know that besides perhaps one or
two issues, there's anything ungodly broken. In part, I suspect
some of the issue is the human tendency to ignore the 12 times an
assassin jumped them, or mid-fight no ground control, but remembers the Glikhardiz fight where things aligned and the
perma-lag finishes him off. Spent a little time spamming throw on some heroimm victims (Thaedan. Lots of abusing Thaedan), and
actually had very few perma-lagging throws, edges and all.

But throws that do 200+ HP a pop in damage while also lagging you at least as well as trip and potentially nuke defenses via GC controls maledicts means you might only have 2 or 3 commands to work with.

It may just be the throw edge tipping assassins over the edge, but the culmination of factors over time leads to a feeling of frustration, especially against a stealth class. Or when you wish you could be half as effective as a ranger, or a thief, or when you play a hand spec, and have a throw negate your spec choice and still get thrown to death... Makes you think... hrmmm... should have just played assassin.

Listing those things wasn't meant to say they'd been recent additions or that any of them alone are OP. I used to play an assassin when you could assassinate mobs. I know a lot of it has been there forever. Just making the point that they have something for nearly every situation. But, unlike the saying "Jack of all trades, master of none", the assassin is a "jack of all trades, master of a few".

The shield block mention is just because I think that all thieves should get it and am bitter. Also, the IMM xp req on DVx1 should be removed. :)

I agree with all thieves having shield block. Some of their specialization got a little overly intrusive.

I'm less about jumping on the 'Stop the Assassins' bandwagon and more about help those in obvious need.

Lighten the beat down on rangers. Let them herb while blind. As it stands now, assassins can bind wounds, etc. or at least come up with an edge called Blind Tactician or some such that throws rangers a bone when blinded. As it is, they're toast if they can't remove it. (In most cases.)

Silence all the hubbub with an edge called Physical Prowess. Make it expensive, but let it be an evade bonus or the like to basic things like bash, trip and throw, with a side helping of a better chance to avoid cheapshots and ground control. Make it expensive if need be. In lieu of loosening item limits to promote more risk out there in the fields, make the likelihood of being completely command locked less likely. Everyone dies, but sitting there typing flee once or twice and having it never go through, even if you panicked and didn't escape is a will-breaker.

Like others I'm less worried about an assassin killing me in combat than I am via assassination.

Follow the basic premise of PK. If you didn't pick the fight, don't stay in the fight. Odds are they're prepped to the gills and you're not. Commonsense. Flipside is that there are ways to nullify the chance for assassins to go Martial Trance.

I would be for removing the option to prevent a foe from fleeing via stalks + martial trance + engaging, because that's a whole lot of freebie with no risk in most cases. Unless you throw out an edge that grants people a better shot at avoiding those pesky trips, bashes and throws.

But for the most part, with a few glaring exceptions, CF is pretty well-balanced. And as is the case with most things your mileage may vary with any class/specialization.

For god's sake throw conjurer's a little bone. So much sleeping, and so many angry servitors, those guys are masochists! Maybe a more choice based few random variable elements for shifters, because they can get monotonous in a hurry. There are some things that can be done to further improve CF because that's simply the way any evolving system should be to avoid its own extinction but there is still very much a good reason why we all still play the game. It's fun regardless.

I'd still love to see the throw edge tuned down a little, but the biggest beef with assassins is just that they look so good compared to things that should be comparable.

Rangers and Thieves spring to mind as classes that need love to be brought up to assassin levels.

Conjies either need a major overhaul and a lot of love or just straight removal. They're almost totally broken and unplayable at this point. If they are so OP they need all the downsides they have (totally useless without servitors, high recovery times for servitors, servitors kill you, familiars lose you con, etc. etc.) they should be 100% dominant when they have everything going for them. None of that is fun.

>I'd still love to see the throw edge tuned down a little, but
>the biggest beef with assassins is just that they look so good
>compared to things that should be comparable.
>
>Rangers and Thieves spring to mind as classes that need love
>to be brought up to assassin levels.

Rangers and thieves are classes with a niche. For rangers, they're only great in non-civilized terrain. With thieves, it's the ability to take peoples' stuff without actually fighting them and the ability to make any gang significantly more gross by way of cheap shot.

IMO, if thieves got anywhere close to assassin levels in terms of melee and flexibility they'd need to lose something else.

>If they are so OP they need all the
>downsides they have (totally useless without servitors, high
>recovery times for servitors, servitors kill you, familiars
>lose you con, etc. etc.) they should be 100% dominant when

If you don't want to lose con from your familiar dying then don't practice the familiar skill. Problem solved.

High recovery times for servitors is only an issue if your servitors get killed, and if you insist on trying for the absolute best servitors every time you conjure. If you're okay with just putting minimal mana into it and getting non-optimal results then you can conjure a new pair only a few hours after the original ones leave.

Servitors killing you is mainly a complaint about evil conjurers, or a neutral conjurer who uses demons/devils. So, not a problem with the entire class, just one version of it.

I can sort of agree with you on the long waiting period if one of your servitors dies. I could see a change where, upon servitor death, timer on that servitor's conjuration spell is cut in half or something. Could potentially be abused in PvE though; would have to figure something out there.

Thieves are an RPG staple. They should not be niche. IMO stealing isn't all that fun and I only use it if it's tactical (stealing a boat, return potion) for the most part. Also, it's why thieves are so hated and why if you die as a thief, you are likely to be heavily looted w/o remorse. So, there's a big downside. Also, with many thief paths, stealing can mean risking your life. Failed WBBJ, BJ, garotte can mean you die.

I'd rather lose steal all together (or make deft touch/warning skill higher up on the pickpocket path) to make the thief class more viable in 1 on 1 melee. In fact, support classes in general are getting much more niche as there are fewer opportunities to find like-minded chars to travel with.

Quick fix to make thieves less niche and group dependent and less despised w/o too much work:
- Push deft touch/warning skill up the pickpocket path
- Have regular steal always make you step out of shadows
- Make cheapshot only fire if your tanking
- Replace WBBJ with BJ in the thug path (BJ no longer a general skill)
- Give shield block to all thieves
- Make guild chests require advanced lockpick and give it to all thieves. There's no reason an assassin should pick as well as any thief or be able to raid thief built guild chests. And while Advanced Lockpick was worth 8 pts. when you could pick defiance chest and everything else, it no longer is. And remove the lock on the battlement crossbow. Was this ever a problem? You know what I'm talking about!

Just fun things for thieves:
- Have additional weapon skills at 3 pts. each
- Give the basic weapon skills (pugil, lash, etc.)
- Get rid of weapontrip (can buy whip and lash instead)
- Give them staff (Robin Hood anyone?)
- Thieves should ALWAYS be able to see an assassin (assassin hide should be offensive, not defensive in nature)
- Remove IMMXP requirement for 1xDV (1000, 3000? Really?)
- Failing that, just get rid of DV because people will just be disappointed.
- Raise limits on limited daggers since assassins and warrior dagger specs are so popular
- Announce when you nerf/improve a thief skill
- Replace rogue awareness with retreat (warriors should not be more adept to getting out of trouble than thieves)
- Allow backstab/gouge/gut with any piercing weapon

>Thieves are an RPG staple. They should not be niche.

Agree on the first. Not the second. In almost every fantasy setting where I've encountered them, thieves are niche. They're not great in melee by design; they're fragile and rely on stealth. That's their "thing".

>stealing isn't all that fun and I only use it if it's tactical
>(stealing a boat, return potion) for the most part.

I'm the same. Steal potions, boats, cabal items, and occasionally other gear if it's a clear upgrade to what I'm wearing.

>risking your life. Failed WBBJ, BJ, garotte can mean you die.

Yep. That's part of being a thief. In some cases it won't be worth the risk to try to KO certain characters. I'm more or less okay with that. If you could try to blackjack any build in the game with very little risk then that would be kind of OP, don't you think?

>I'd rather lose steal all together...

"Thief" class that can't actually steal? Seems kind of weird.

Yes, thieves w/o steal would be weird. And I agree a thief should not be able to stand toe to toe with a warrior melee-wise.

You point out that they are fragile and rely on stealth. Yes, but assassins can stealth better than a thief and are not fragile. They can hide from a thief and can attack with trance dam redux and +200-300hp? with an edge.

Also, consider thief paths. A lot of times it feels like people think of thieves and what they can do without considering the trade-offs with other skills and that a thief with skill A will not have skill B and vice versa.

If assassins were broken up like thieves, they might go down the throw path and not get trance. Or, if they go the trance path, they won't get kicks, etc.

Frankly, I'm not sure that a very reliable KO skill is overpowered when it lasts an hour, people can wake up from a failed steal (cabal power maybe?) and when you attack them, most can kick your ass or get away if they've quaffed a 150 copper potion.

Before I say anything: want to you know I'm not just trying to get the "last word" here. Just keep having thoughts about what you're posting.

>You point out that they are fragile and rely on stealth. Yes,
>but assassins can stealth better than a thief and are not
>fragile. They can hide from a thief and can attack with trance
>dam redux and +200-300hp? with an edge.

1. "Assassins are better at stealth". Sort of in that they can hide some places thieves can't. But sort of not in the sense they can't immediately re-hide when adrenaline is high. In the places the assassin can hide that thieves can't, he usually can't move around and remain hidden.

2. " are not fragile". In a planned fight, sure, by virtue of trance. You get jumped and it can be a different story. But, yes, they are definitely less fragile than thieves.

3. "can attack with trance and +200 hp". Yes, and I can almost always flee from them and wait until trance is gone.

>Frankly, I'm not sure that a very reliable KO skill is
>overpowered when it lasts an hour, people can wake up from a
>failed steal (cabal power maybe?) and when you attack them,
>most can kick your ass or get away if they've quaffed a 150
>copper potion.

Trick is to catch people when they don't know you're there and aren't flying. Blackjack lasts more than hour, and I'm pretty sure stealing doesn't wake up knocked out people. Benefit is that you've hopefully robbed them, maybe recited some stuff at them, maybe recited some stuff on yourself, and get to wake them up with a 500 hp backstab.

Make the cap on thief points at level 47, not level 42. Too many 0 xp penalty thieves sit at level 42 out of hero range and even mob die (or equivalent) to remain out of hero range.

Thieves need incentive to keep leveling past 42.

But, thieves are not competitive at hero. Maybe solve that problem and they will hero without having to beat them with the point stick.

How do you define "not competitive"? There have been pretty deadly thieves in the past. Not as deadliest as the deadliest warrior, necromander or anti-paladin, but plenty deadly in the right circumstances.

There are plenty of matchups that are "really bad" for the thief class. There are other matchups that are "really good". Just have to avoid the former and actively seek out the latter.

The ol' "there have been deadly examples of this class in the past."

I cannot argue with that statement. Also, since neither of us have enough statistical data to prove thieves are competitive or not even if there was some set criteria for doing so, I can only go from my experience and knowledge of CF like anyone else. So, we'll just have to agree to disagree whether thieves are competitive at hero.

One recent thief that springs to mind is Lithidora. More than competitive actually. It's the kind of player that you hope doesn't play hero thieves because of how deadly they make them appear.

All depends on how you define "competitive". Like I said, you're probably not going to kill as many people as a top-shelf warrior, necromancer, anti-paladin, transmuter or assassin. Or orc, but you'll probably die more with the orc.

But you'll probably kill more people than certain other classes. I'm kind of okay with the fact that come classes are capable of raking up more kills than other classes.

This has all been pulled from the PK Stats tool from the "other" site.

Of the top 5 thieves by PKW only one was not 51, he was 47 so still in hero range. The first level 42 sitter shows up at #6.

A question might be did they pk low, and hero anyway?

Well in the case of Ageryn (http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=30746&mesg_id=30746&page=31), more than half of his PKs were at hero. Also, Flaayin's numbers look wacky, but it would appear the majority of their PKs were at hero as well.

Flaayin made thieves look OP.

And there're no statistics on assassins being OP post lagnerf and edgetweak.

I took at look at good-aligned characters with lots of PKs during the last 5-6 years that also don't have detect hidden. Or, at least, not all the time, i.e. I'm going to include conjurers and shapeshifters.

Why good? Because, with a few exceptions, most competent assassins are evil or neutral. Good-aligned characters should be more frequently targeted by assassins than evil. Here's what I found:

Oshui, shifter, 23-1 vs. Assassins (1 assassinate), 47 total PK losses
Vozmuir, warrior, 11-1 vs. Assassins (1 assassinate), 28 total PK losses
Clahier, conjurer, 10-0 vs. Assassins, 12 total PK losses
Azhelak, ranger, 3-0 vs. Assassins, 14 total PK losses
Merrol, shaman, 14-0 vs. Assassins, 19 total PK losses
Caldysias, paladin, 6-0 vs. Assassins, 13 total PK losses
Tolgrumm, paladin, 10-2 vs. Assassins (1 assassinate), 63 total PK losses
Eachainn, invoker, 7-7 vs. Assassins (3 assassinates), 24 total PK losses

Out of those, Eachainn is the only one who really performed poorly against assassins relative to the success he had against other classes. Interestingly, he also did poorly vs. rangers (2-3), invokers (1-1) and necromancers (0-3).

Granted this is a very small sample size and some of these characters are 6 years old. Also I'm looking only at characters that enjoyed PK success; it could be that non-PK-savvy players are especially vulnerable to the assassin class in ways more-PK-savvy players aren't.

For fun, here are stats for some 2012+ PK-savvy battleragers without detect hidden:

Salyeris, bard, 8-1 (1 assassinate), 64 total PK losses
Lohakahn, warrior, 5-2, 89 total PK losses
Hexugar, warrior, 4-0, 28 total PK losses
Akedeh, warrior, 6-0, 67 total PK losses
Bosephus, warrior, 12-0, 21 total PK losses
Aulrathdien, warrior, 6-0, 3 total PK losses
Kontoln, warrior, 6-0, 95 total PK losses
Erighan, warrior, 3-3, 37 total PK losses

Of these, Erighan is the only one who didn't out-perform his overall PK ratio against the assassin class.

For instance, if we look at Lithodora's PK Statistics, it looks like AP is super deadly to thief. But I don't believe for a second that is generally true. Chances are it was because that particular thief faced a particularly difficult to avoid and beat AP. Namely, Sodsob.

I'm clearly cherry picking, and with PBF's as the only data source, we all have to. But as an Imm, you should be able to get access to a better data set.

Then you need to break apart stuff like what is assassin good at fighting overall, not just on PBF chars, but all chars. How does that change at major miletstone... Levels, edges, losing XP penalty, etc. It is entirely possible the data doesn't support my feeling that assassin has moved from good to a bit OP (under the right circumstances, which includes a couple of edges).

Also, I didn't break it down for all the goodies you mentioned (most of which are pretty old at this point), but Air offense shifter is a particularly bad matchup for assassin for obvious reasons. Doubly so when you consider jack blaguar, and Oshui's ratio vs assassins was still 92% which is going to be well within the margin of error for the sample size vs his overall ratio of 88%. He also was only 50% vs necros, which is also clearly a matchup that doesn't favor shifter in most cases. Conjurer, Ranger, Polespec (perma-ing) warrior, are all unfavorable matchups, but all you have to look at is who most wins are against to realize the game is mostly warriors, and has been for quite a while.

I'd love to see some real analysis on the total data set, but that's impossible for us, so it's really up to you.

>For instance, if we look at Lithodora's PK Statistics, it
>looks like AP is super deadly to thief. But I don't believe
>for a second that is generally true.

It's true to the extent that APs can be duergar and/or buff APs are reasonably likely to end up with a certain item at some point in their lives. In that character's case, they were also obligated by role-play to engage with Sodsob. An otherwise identical thief who was an uncaballed pacifist would probably not have suffered quite so much.

For fun, I dug up some stats on 2012+ fort thieves that had a PK focus:

Ageryn, 528 hours, 166-41 overall, 9-4 vs. AP
Mochodin, 206 hours, 108-8 overall, 4-0 vs. AP
Vallinane, 827 hours, 79-93 overall, 2-3 vs. AP
Lithodora, 589 hours, 77-31 overall, 3-13 vs. AP
Resdrenn, 203 hours, 74-20 overall, 13-0 vs. AP
Kasir, 544 hours, 74-16 overall, 2-0 vs. AP
Thaedan, 547 hours, 72-21 overall, 1-5 vs. AP
Irineth, 236 hours, 57-18 overall, 9-1 vs. AP
Spiorra, 262 hours, 34-22 overall, 3-0 vs. AP

Seems like in terms of success against APs it helps to 1. be a thug and 2. spend a lot of time at lower ranks when the anti-paladins don't have buff weapons, and 3. not have to deal with shaapa.

Any class that can dish out a lot of melee damage, learns weapons thieve's can't parry well, can bash, and can potentially see hidden (either via an item or by being duergar) will be dangerous to a thief.

>doesn't support my feeling that assassin has moved from good
>to a bit OP (under the right circumstances, which includes a
>couple of edges).

I'm saying that for players who know what they're doing, assassin with edges still doesn't rank all that high in their list of concerns. The main exception being assassinate and, to a lesser extent, mark of the prey. And that's how I tend to evaluate whether a class/item/skill is overpowered: how hard or easy is it for a vet to neutralize (or minimize) the class's advantage, part of which may be simply avoiding fighting that class except under choice circumstances?

For the assassin class, it seems like vets aren't dying to them all that much outside of assassinate.

>I'd love to see some real analysis on the total data set, but
>that's impossible for us, so it's really up to you.

Not something I have access to at the moment. Like I said above, though, I'm not sure looking at "all the numbers" is the best way to gauge whether something is OP. If a class has a gimmick that works against newbies but hardly ever against anyone who knows what they're doing, is it really OP?

>Not something I have access to at the moment. Like I said
>above, though, I'm not sure looking at "all the numbers" is
>the best way to gauge whether something is OP. If a class has
>a gimmick that works against newbies but hardly ever against
>anyone who knows what they're doing, is it really OP?

I don't think it is a gimmick that only works against newbies. Trip + cheapshot is, because flight is cheap and easy to get. I'm also not sure your competent goodies faced any competent assassins. Especially ones exploiting the issues I specifically called out as adding up to the overall problem.

2607	Tiiga	5	570	91%	380	0.667	37	14	0	half-drow	assassin	orderly	evil	none	9/21/2016	17	71	500	13	1.24	1.68
911	Gaspare	10	870	94%	269	0.309	16	14	0	lich	necromancer	orderly	evil	empire	3/13/2016	53	127	4800	1	1.62	1.69
1320	Jeede	7	660	83%	223	0.338	45	14	0	human	assassin	neutral	evil	scarab	9/22/2016	19	55	5800	9	1.31	1.44
1940	Nazarates	1	491	97%	202	0.411	6	2	0	human	assassin	orderly	evil	empire	12/26/2016	43	88	700	0	1.6	1.83
403	Cainasir	3	299	98%	179	0.599	4	4	0	human	assassin	orderly	evil	scarab	1/8/2016	23	44	900	2	1.1	1.5

This is clearly cherry picked, but for characters dying in 2016, 4 of the top 5 killers were assassins played by 3 different players, and the other was a Lich. If you want to pull some goodie stats from that time period and see how people matched up against competent assassins, I'm betting you get the opposite story. You have to, because they ran 90% ish ratios, so clearly they were killing more than just newbs. That's why I think the overall data set is more telling.

>I don't think it is a gimmick that only works against newbies.
> Trip + cheapshot is, because flight is cheap and easy to get.

Actually, I'd say trip + cheap shot is a counter example to a tactic that only works against newbies. Mainly because thieves have stealth and it's unrealistic to expect a character without permafly to keep flight up 24/7.

> I'm also not sure your competent goodies faced any competent
>assassins.

I fought Tiiga and Jeede some. Kjrorh and Lakaof at various points in the past.

>This is clearly cherry picked, but for characters dying in
>2016, 4 of the top 5 killers were assassins played by 3
>different players, and the other was a Lich.

I'd be curious to know how many kills those 3 players would have had if they'd played a similarly PK-effective class of the same alignment/cabal for the same amount of time during the same time span. Say warrior, necro, AP, muter, etc. In other words, were they so successful because of the class, or because they're top-shelf players who would be successful with any class?

I appreciate this approach, but with PBFs being a small subset of players, the sample is just too small and not representative.

After playing many shifters and thieves, I rarely die to assassins. Shifters can always get away from an assassin and I don't stay in one place long enough to be assassinated when there's an assassin on.

As a thief, if they are tranced, I'm not fighting them and unless they perma lag me, I'm gone. But, we're talking about post trance/edge assassins being OP (and maybe ground control). So, I've killed plenty of assassins pre those things.

Considering the options for dealing with a class you think is OP are many (avoid, befriend, logout, adjust play time, flee, gank, play one yourself, etc.) and cannot be documented in a PBF, I think that common sense, theory-craft and experience are needed when evaluating assassins.

And consequently, before assassins started taking the throw edge.
And some even before the class xp penalties were gone.

I'm assuming the list of throw-exploiting-assassins is basically Tiiga, Jeede, Nazaretes, Cainasir and Qinsa, all of whom died in 2016, and all of whom except Jeede had Master of Nage Waza.

I sorted by PKW and then went from the top down and picked out characters that died in 2016. Many of these have detect hidden, and some of them would have been allies of some (but not all) of the above assassins. Here's what I've got:

Reegun, human shaman, 163-53 overall, 1-3 vs. assassin
Others: 0-2 vs. transmuter, 7-7 vs. druid, 2-2 vs. AP

Golthazar, duergar warrior, 158-62 overall, 9-2 vs. assassin
Others: 0-6 vs. transmuter, 8-9 vs. paladin

Kaer, fire warrior, 150-77 overall, 8-7 vs. assassin
Others: 2-3 vs. rangers, 7-14 vs. shaman, 0-1 vs. necromancer

Darvoderis, half-drow shaman, 131-114 overall, 5-16 vs. assassin
Others: 0-2 vs. transmuter, 2-4 vs. thief, 6-8 vs. paladin

Grimghal, duegar warrior, 128-28 overall, 1-1 vs. assassin
Others: 4-4 vs. paladin, 5-4 vs. necromancer

Mhirnal, drow anti-paladin, 118-6 overall, 8-1 vs. assassin
Others: n/a

Zalgordrax, mummy necromancer, 113-16 overall, 4-4 vs. assassin
Others: n/a

Muuksube, duergar shaman, 112-11 overall, 4-1 vs. assassin
Others: n/a

Tsalantha, drow anti-paladin, 174-9 overall, 15-0 vs. assassin
Others: n/a

Out of these nine, five did worse against assassin than their overall record would predict. Though, in some cases we're talking about very small numbers, e.g. Reegun going 2-2. That's worse than his 163-53 record would predict, but when you only die twice to a class over a long life it's hard to argue you were dominated by that class.

Only two, Kaer and Darvoderis, had more than a handful of deaths to assassins. Darvoderis had 114 PK deaths (!!!) so his assassin death count may not mean much. He seemed to die to all kinds of classes.

They don't tell us much if you base them on PK stats. Dozens of people will play something to 10% of its pk potential, not just for reasons of different ability but also how they enjoy playing the game, hundreds will play and delete without a pbf.

I don't know exactly how I would want to base statistics off of pbf'd pk records here.

Unrelated but, if you like statistics, this was a fun read:
http://rsos.royalsocietypublishing.org/content/4/12/171085

Take this for what it's worth, but outside of the assassinate skill, assassin is hardly ever the class I'm most worried about.

That includes when I don't have detect hidden.

If I had to pick one thing about them that worries me *besides* assassinate it would be mark of the prey.

Mostly poking fun...

.

Sounds like your main concern is throw+ground control with nage waza and the ground control edge.

I am surprised none is mentioning that it's a great combination of edges but basically your are focusing your char to fight melee classes, all the mage and priest classes automatically negate your "best weapon".

And even then those melee classes have easy options to bypass it (enlarge pots).

So if your best victims are melee classes that don't have access to pots, basically you are left with ragers and they can mess you up anyway with random deathblows and resistance on demand.

>Sounds like your main concern is throw+ground control with
>nage waza and the ground control edge.
>
>I am surprised none is mentioning that it's a great
>combination of edges but basically your are focusing your char
>to fight melee classes, all the mage and priest classes
>automatically negate your "best weapon".

Uh, you are stealth class. Fight them when they aren't ready and you have a decent chance of throw + GC. Also, current CF, melee is king.

>And even then those melee classes have easy options to bypass
>it (enlarge pots).

Enlarge makes very little difference in my experience unless you can be 2 sizes larger, and then you are a giant and the assassin probably enlarged to fight you anyway, so... you still get throw.

>So if your best victims are melee classes that don't have
>access to pots, basically you are left with ragers and they
>can mess you up anyway with random deathblows and resistance
>on demand.

>3) Throw + ground control edges
>
>Throw now has 100% success rate. Ground control too? Maybe
>not, but very high. Both do more damage, and you get more
>consistent results from ground control. And free throws. And
>you can throw hand specs and other assassins.

The throw edge is just too good with its multiple legacy like benefits. Couple that with the GC edge and it's no wonder every assassin abuses those. I think they should basically just add some damage and a minor boost to their maledicts, while not increasing their chance to land, and they'd be fine.

The trance edges could be toned down a bit too, but I don't personally see a problem with trance itself.

I obviously don't know who designed the current iteration of assassins, but I've played both assassins and thieves. The latter extensively.

I've said before that it feels like assassins were designed by someone who wanted to play an assassin and thieves were designed by someone who wanted to play a shaman.

Of course, Since their initial designs, I think assassins have gotten more powerful and thieves have been nerfed.

I don't think assassins would be at all under-powered if you just did away with trance all together.

Which isn't necessarily a bad thing, assassinate is a lot easier to avoid than trance + throw. :P

I think it would be a step in the right direction and potentially all that was required to remove the damage reduction element from trance, but keep everything else. Assassins, in or out of trance, should be at least as glass cannon-esque as STSF elfs.

Kotegaeshi is nice but you're better off throwing.
If you die to someone who types kanse at you and you're not being bashed, you deserve to die.

I don't really think of maledicts when I think of dying to assassins. It does have raid implications though (and don't forget confuse darts).

But yes throw+trance is already really strong alone, assassins do way too many things too well. I think you could even just take hide away and they'd still be reasonably good, not that they should lose hide.

Do they need to change? I don't know. I'd rather people just realize they're playing on training wheels when they play an assassin.

I basically agree with you regarding kote/kans in PK, would add that they are amazing in PVE which should be taken into account in terms of being able to easily gather preps/gear that some other classes might struggle with.

One of my huge frustrations with throw/GC, especially with the appropriate edges, is that aside from maybe a poison dart then nerve to open things up it makes no sense for the assassin to type anything but throw. If they get lucky they permalag you and you die, if they get unlucky and miss they only get one round of lag and can re-engage fast. The class has a bunch of interesting skills that should never see the light of day in PK because throw/GC is a better option, always.

Edit - okay, maybe owaza to lead into throw spam in some situations, Wooooo.

Tac raises a good point. I'd kind of forgotten but outside the context of the throw edges, I wouldn't have made a snarky comment about people who use kanset in PK, even post dex-changes.

It did used to be more varied and take a little more finesse. So that is a shame, I really like the idea of assassins as utility-using sneaky warriors, instead of judo specs with hide. :)

>Kotegaeshi is nice but you're better off throwing.
>If you die to someone who types kanse at you and you're not
>being bashed, you deserve to die.
>
>I don't really think of maledicts when I think of dying to
>assassins. It does have raid implications though (and don't
>forget confuse darts).
>

This didn't used to be the case. Assassins used to use maledicts to drop weapons and prevent being rofl stomped by bashing giant warrior. It was "can get get off a kot/kans before they bash me into the dirt?" and the answer was... sometimes. Now it's just throw, because I do everything better than them anyway.

People tend to forgot how heavily they rely on trance. Untranced an assassin is one rounded by a flurry. They also cannot hide nor trance will in violence timer. Shapaa smoked me several times with his rbw flail/hand to hand even with trance.

Also they typically don't have much carry weight so equipment options dwindle a bit as far as stat coverage. People seem to forgot assassins can be maladicted also. Glik killed me once with bash spam wielding axes. Maces are brutal too.

You also cannot be thrown two sizes bigger so Giants are basically immune. Axe kick, kot, and kans seem to have a size check as well. Not sure about GC

Also there is like a 15 minute cool down on trance, which makes retreiving 1v1 pretty simple since it's so obvious when it's up. Assassin vs assassin is usually dictated by who makes who burn hours off their trance for no reason.

Also, a useful tidbit:. Assassins are useless under water.