Valg said...

You're enforcing a definition of activity that the staff doesn't enforce, and the playerbase doesn't want. Just because you have an employment situation that allows you to play 80 hours a week doesn't mean everyone (caballed or not) does. Kelin played plenty.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com


Now, this just hasn't been my experience. I've seen Heralds, Imperials, even Scions tossed for not being on enough. How can you even say this isn't something the staff enforces, when it's done in your own cabal?

Sun Feb 1 01:35:23 2004 at level 20 (40 hrs):
Kelin advanced to level 20.

Thu Apr 29 15:19:44 2004 at level 30 (79 hrs):
Kelin advanced to level 30

**

It took him 39 hours of playing to go from level 20 to level 30. Even worse, it took him 89 days to put in those 39 hours. Thats 3 months to go from 20 to 30.

**

Tue May 11 18:29:31 2004 at level 32 (99 hrs):
Inducted into FORTRESS by Lariya.

Tue Jun 8 17:47:23 2004 at level 40 (158 hrs):
Kelin advanced to level 40

**

Almost a month here to go 8 more levels. Now 60 hours in a month isn't so bad, 2 hours a day (average). However what it shows is for all that time he's not doing much of anything with it.

**

Fri Aug 6 12:43:08 2004 at level 51 (265 hrs):
Kelin advanced to level 51

**

2 months later he makes the last 11 levels. They were all gotten in like a 2 day period of time, though the PBF doesn't show this. Roughly 100 hours in 2 months. Also we have this: Fri Jul 16 12:05:27 2004 by 'Khasotholas' at level 46 (231 hrs):
Three Imperials are raiding, Kelin can harm them, but is ranking. He doesn't even make an attempt. And he's with allies who would attack Imperials.


**

Fri Oct 22 14:36:10 2004 at level 51 (350 hrs):
Shokai made Kelin a Maran

**

2 and a half months later, and less than 100 hours added. Nearly 11 months since the character was created (January to almost November), and he's only at 350 hours. Then he almost doubles his time in the following 2 months. 350 hours in 11 months, then 300 hours in 2. There's nothing consistent about this. If he had kept his times "consistent" with his playing times for the first 11 months (coincidentally enough the timeframe I was complaining about his attendance in), it would have taken him TWO YEARS to age die.

You successfully proved that even in lean times, he played over an hour per day, except an interval before he was inducted into the Fortress.

We have casual players, and players for whom certain times of the year don't allow of playtime. I can't emphasize enough how differently calibrated you are from the staff expectations.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>It took him 39 hours of playing to go from level 20 to level
>30. Even worse, it took him 89 days to put in those 39 hours.
>Thats 3 months to go from 20 to 30.
>... ETC

Hey Vladimir,

I honestly dont know why you would not let it drop.
I might admit I have possibly dodged a hostile pk range going to explore a few times.
But I always played when I had time to play and I wanted to play.
Which was usually several times a week for several hours straight. Regardless of pk, gods, powers, RND gen, etc.
During last year I had two periods of time I could not play due personal reasons. Duration of both was around two or three weeks.

If it is not 'consistent' enough for you, honestly I dont care.

As for not ranking fast enough, I was never a powergamer.
Reaching hero was/is not a priority for me.
Would opportunity arise to rank, I would take it.
But I would not bust my ass trying to gain one more level.

This was my only char.
And I yet to roll another one yet due vaining interest, girlfriend, relocation, job, etc.

>Fri Jul 16 12:05:27 2004 by 'Khasotholas' at level 46 (231
>hrs):
>Three Imperials are raiding, Kelin can harm them, but is
>ranking. He doesn't even make an attempt. And he's with allies
>who would attack Imperials.
>

Vladimir, you intentionally omitting good things and inflating bad ones. Again, what do you have against me?
I killed char of yours or my 'fame' does not let you sleep peacefully?

I checked my logs and here is what transpired:
==================================================
<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
You say 'Imperials came to my gates'

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
A ladder is mounted into the solid black wall and the darkness extends both
upwards and downwards as far as the eye can see. The pitch black walls seem
to absorb the light around you, no light reflects at all as it did within the
granite. This tunnel is in the heart of a vein of black-iron ore.


Picpongel is sleeping here.
Hentogi is here.
(Translucent) The long sinuous body of a giant crocodile is here.

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
You grumble distractedly to yourself.

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
<42 Elf Pal> (PK) Llevythiar the Champion of the Crusades
<44 H-Drw Hea> (PK) Nakzuran the Giver of Life, Imperial Acolyte
<51 H-Drw Bar> (PK) Hafizar the Grand Master of Artistry, Elite Imperial Blade
<49 Svirf War> (PK) Derafhac the Disciple of Ancient Ways
<50 Human War> (PK) Timalin the Champion of Ancient Ways, Elite Imperial Blade
<51 H-Elf Hea> (PK) Alessa Tarindal the Protector of Faith
<45 Gnome Shf> (PK) Picpongel the Xenomorph
<50 Svirf Thi> (PK) Hentogi the Unspoken Name
<51 Human Shf> (PK) Reazaifr Sigiel, the Grand Master of Changelings
<51 Felar Shf> (PK) Arthakar the Grand Master of Changelings, Initiate of the Scarab
*46 Storm War* (PK) Kelin the Champion of Battlefields

Players found: 11

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
Hentogi grumbles and growls. You wonder what's wrong...

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
the Watcher: Intruder! Intruder! Timalin is raiding the Cabal!
the Watcher: Intruder! Intruder! Nakzuran is raiding the Cabal!
the Watcher: Intruder! Intruder! Hafizar is raiding the Cabal!

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
People near you:
(PK) Picpongel An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) Hentogi An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) an angry crocodile An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) Kelin An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
<44 H-Drw Hea> (PK) Nakzuran the Giver of Life, Imperial Acolyte
<21 Felar War> Nagant the Strategist

<11 PM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
You say 'warrior, bard and healer.'

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
People near you:
(PK) Picpongel An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) Hentogi An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) an angry crocodile An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore
(PK) Kelin An Intersection in a Vein of Black-Iron Ore

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 597mv 8637tnl>
Hentogi puts a scrap of parchment in the girdle of endless space.

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 651mv 8637tnl>
You say 'I think I pass.'

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 651mv 8637tnl>
You say 'I wish I could do something... besides dying.'

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 651mv 8637tnl>
Hentogi says 'Can't get outta here anyway.'

<12 AM> <819/819hp 419mn 651mv 8637tnl>
Hentogi says 'Not quickly.'
============================

Could I have made an attempt trying to defend and possibly dying? Sure.
Would it change anything? NADA.

Kelin was very pragmatical and not a martyr at all as Muuloc pointed out. This made him more dangerous.

Signing off,

Kelin

PS Off topic: Aren't you that 14 years old who tried to run 1st version of KBK mud after POS died? And cheating SOOO blatantly?

>Hey Vladimir,
>
>I honestly dont know why you would not let it drop.

Mostly because all I wanted to do was give you a little constructive criticism, and you turned into a jackass. Up till that point I was biting my tongue on a lot of things I wanted to say. Once you turned into an ungrateful little prick however, I let you have my full opinion.

>I might admit I have possibly dodged a hostile pk range going
>to explore a few times.

Man it was more than just a "few" times, and don't even pretend otherwise. Multiple people on your thread commented on it, so it pretty clearly wasn't a "few" times.

>But I always played when I had time to play and I wanted to
>play.
>Which was usually several times a week for several hours
>straight. Regardless of pk, gods, powers, RND gen, etc.
>During last year I had two periods of time I could not play
>due personal reasons. Duration of both was around two or three
>weeks.

Come on man, 3 full months to go ten levels? And not even ten higher levels. I can get from 20-30 in an hour, maybe an hour and a half of ranking.

>If it is not 'consistent' enough for you, honestly I dont
>care.

Obviously you do, because here you are posting and bringing it all back up.

>As for not ranking fast enough, I was never a powergamer.
>Reaching hero was/is not a priority for me.
>Would opportunity arise to rank, I would take it.
>But I would not bust my ass trying to gain one more level.

There's a difference between powergaming, and the natural progression of your character. You had to be forced to bother doing anything for your own betterment, aside from gathering eq, by both me and Golron.

>This was my only char.
>And I yet to roll another one yet due vaining interest,
>girlfriend, relocation, job, etc.

So you say.

>Vladimir, you intentionally omitting good things and inflating
>bad ones. Again, what do you have against me?
>I killed char of yours or my 'fame' does not let you sleep
>peacefully?

I'm not inflating anything, and naturally I'm only going to post things germaine to my point, why is that so hard for you to grasp? You certainly never killed any characters of mine, and your "fame" is a joke. I'd take any one of my characters reputations over being known as the guy who never shows up to defend.

>I checked my logs and here is what transpired:

That was ONE time. There were literally DOZENS of other times where you could have made a huge difference had you shown up. You elected not to.

>Could I have made an attempt trying to defend and possibly
>dying? Sure.
>Would it change anything? NADA.

And right here is the crux of your problem. No balls. There's just no nicer way to say it man. You never took any chances. You always played it safe, to the detriment of everyone around you. To me, that doesn't say "maran". "I didn't want to do it because I might possibly die". Wah.

>Kelin was very pragmatical and not a martyr at all as Muuloc
>pointed out. This made him more dangerous.

No, this made him unreliable to those he was supposed to be protecting. You can say pragmatical all you like, but what it boils down to is chicken####.

>Signing off,
>
>Kelin

Bye.

>PS Off topic: Aren't you that 14 years old who tried to run
>1st version of KBK mud after POS died? And cheating SOOO
>blatantly?

Uhh no. Guess again neuterboy.

I'll toss people who are on only very rarely. I tend to have less sympathy if I see them switching amongst their caballed characters.

Kelin rolled in January, and played the character almost exactly a year. He averaged roughly 1hr 45min per day over that time, reasonably consistent from month to month.

I'm sure as hell not going to recommend de-caballing someone for playing nearly 2 hours a day.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

And I've come to the conclusion that you're suffering the same lack of knowledge about just how inactive Kelin was at times. Let me put things into perspective, because I'm not trying to be a ####. I just genuinely don't think you understand where I am coming from on this whole Kelin deal.

When I, as a cabal leader induct someone and then I don't see them again for nearly a month, I would have expectations in the intervening time. I don't think a few simple expectations like a tangable presence or some sort of effort or progress even of their own character is asking too much or out of line. If these few expectations aren't being met, something has to give.

It's not simply a matter of "I don't see Bob on, so I want to toss him" it's a multitude of things. It's asking others in the cabal "Hey have you seen Bob?" and being told not one person has seen them. It's sending them notes asking for updates on what they have been doing, and never getting a reply. It's finally running into this person weeks later, and seeing them at the same rank they were when you inducted them. All of this together says to me this character isn't something they want to put any effort whatsoever into.

Now we fast forward nearly a year. This character finally age dies. This character has in the intervening time become well known for being unreliable, not taking his cabal duties (like defending) seriously, or even making a modicum of effort to be a presence. This characters repeated absences EVEN WHEN ON have led to the deaths of multiple cabal mates. As someone looking back to a time where I could have nipped this in the bud by removing him to make him think about how hard he wanted to work to be in the cabal, I think I am perfectly justified in saying "Looking back, I think it would have been best had I removed you".

It's not about expecting people to play insane amounts of time. Hell, even with 24 free hours 7 free days a week, I mud an average of 2-3 hours a day, frequently less. I (despite things I may joke about to the contrary) have a life outside of CF. I may not work, but I still have responsibilities and I take them seriously. Sure there are times where I'll bust out something like an 18 hour day, but those days are pretty damned rare, and I have to be either deathly ill and not wanting to move, or just too drained to be bothered to do anything else.

What my point, my original and constant point has been, was that the time logged was just one factor. There were other things that showed me Kelin lacked the desire to put any effort into being in the Fortress. He wanted the powers, he wanted the backup if he needed it, and I just didn't see anything more. It's easy to be a beast when you have cabalmates backing you up, you have a numbers edge, and you hide out in places where you can't hear your cabalmates asking for help. There's no risk in this style of play, and to me thats just not compatible to being in a cabal.

Cabals give extra powers to players. The cost of those powers is increased risk, and a certain amount of responsibility to your cabal. I just never saw Kelin ever take a risk, or one iota of responsibility.

I'm hoping this (way too long) explaination clears things up a bit about where I was coming from. I thought I made it pretty clear with my first post, but apparently I was somehow vague. My point wasn't about time played alone, but a combination of things like what was done in the time that WAS played.

On a side note, we had a Fortress member named Linwe about the same time as Kelin. She approached me IC one day and told me she may not be around for a long time. I never once considered booting her. Why? Because she did the responsible thing, and let me know ahead of time that I couldn't count on her being around. I've also never regretted not booting her. Why? Because she took ten seconds and a little responsibility and let me know she may not be around much.

Am I asking too much of my cabalmates as a leader? Thats open for debate, but in my opinion, I don't think asking for a little reliability in one form or another is asking too much.

How would you know if he logs on his other cabaled characters? You imms don't go through the trouble of seeing who plays who, remember?

Because I can check if I have a good reason to. Like, for example, if a character develops a habit of disappearing during unfortunate times.

And seeing that two characters are associated doesn't tell me who is playing them without more homework.

Sorry to disappoint you.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Heh, I'm rarely disappointed, my point was more that it goes to show what sort of things people check IPs for. Apparently inactivity among them.

I don't need IMM-spiracies, I just don't care for misrepresentation. I have enough IMM-spiracies to last me a while and I've never particularly cared how Imms hook each other up as long as my char doesn't get screwed out of advancement, positions, rewards due to imm-favoritism or anti-favoritism.

Besides, I'm not even worried about IP checking. I've never cheated so I'm not worried. Was just pointing out a discrepancy in perceptions regarding the sorts of things its assumed IP is compared for.

I cannot speak for Valg, but I suspect anyone who has been tossed from a cabal for inactivity has been tossed for severe inactivity, not because they played "less than 80 hours a week".

I am *extremely* sympathetic to casual players, and I have on a few occasions tossed Outlanders for inactivity. It is always extreme inactivity, where the person's activity level is sometimes even barely above enough to keep them from autodeletion.

The reason for this, at least as far as I'm concerned, is that occasionally people do make non-primary characters, get into a cabal, and then virtually never play, only logging on to check a cabal change, new power, or check the cabal's current membership.

Obviously we can't always know someone's motivations when we do this, but what we can do is simply evict someone who isn't contributing to the cabal in any noticable way. You can play some very moderate hours and still contribute to a cabal and not have to worry about such an eviction. And, if you were evicted during some sort of legitimate prolonged absence, you can always reapply to the cabal in question.

If the guy gets booted he was really inactive if he doesn't, he wasn't inactive even if both played the same amount. Certain cabals people get booted for far less inactivity than Kelin.

Its my opinion that if you play certain cabals you aren't an explorer or you should get booted. Then again, I'm a hardass for not believing people should be in Organia/ST to avoid defending.

People want to bitch and moan about how Kelin had a right to go exploring, but he really didn't. As a Maran especially you have things that are expected of you, one of the more important things being the defense of the Fortress and its members. When you swear an oath to defend the Fortress with your life, then run and hide at the first sign of risk, you're not upholding your oath.

If you want to play an explorer, go be a Herald or uncaballed. Being a Maran carries some pretty serious responsibilities to go with the beefy powers, as it should. Being a Maran and an Explorer who is out of touch with his comrades for 3/4ths or more of his time just isn't compatible.