This isn't glamorous, or even particularly interesting work, but can someone take a look at cleaning up some of the area files/items from various places to get less duplication in the official item search?

Some particularly egregious examples:

http://www.carrionfields.net/itemsearch/?item_type=any&slot=any&material=any&weapon=any&damtype=any&min_avg=&keywords=darkling&area=&affect=any&flags=&align=any&sb=level&so=desc

One of these is almost certainly not actually loaded in the area.

http://www.carrionfields.net/itemsearch/?item_type=any&slot=any&material=any&weapon=any&damtype=any&min_avg=&keywords=tunic&area=crystal+island&affect=any&flags=&align=any&sb=level&so=desc

7 of the same item? Seriously? All of crystal island has multiple dupes.

http://www.carrionfields.net/itemsearch/?item_type=any&slot=any&material=any&weapon=any&damtype=any&min_avg=&keywords=ballista&area=&affect=any&flags=&align=any&sb=level&so=desc

4 of the same bolt.

http://www.carrionfields.net/itemsearch/?item_type=any&slot=any&material=any&weapon=any&damtype=any&min_avg=&keywords=dark-elf+long&area=&affect=any&flags=&align=any&sb=level&so=desc

Two sword from two different areas that are clearly very very similar, but slightly different stats... and same name. Why?

This is the complete list of duplicate entries (I think):

Using official search you can find what the offending items are and where they are from. Maybe some Hero-Imm can go remove dupes and/or dedup the entries that have different stats so they also have different names.

a pitch-black ring
a darkling sword named 'Elf-Cleaver'
a boar-headed mace
a leather vest
a wooden staff
a two-handed longsword
a pair of leather pants
a large bearded axe
a long wooden spear
a plain longsword
a steel tower shield
a leather whip
a blackjack
a shortsword
a stout wooden club
a pair of soft leather boots
a large bone spear
a stone trident
a dark-elf long sword
a mineral coated leather bracer studded with gems
a dripping dagger
an engraved steel longsword
a thick-handled shillelagh
a thick-handled shillelagh
a thick-handled shillelagh
a carved wooden ring
a carved wooden ring
simple gray robes
a short spear
a practice shield
a blue crystal ring
a blackjack
a sturdy copper shield
a copper shortsword
a staff wrapped in red leather
dark red belt
a thick strip of red leather
a thick strip of red leather
a long handled flail
an old mining pick
a burnished shield
a copper dagger
a dirty eyepatch
a pair of leather sandals
a hunting knife
some tattered rags
a fine leather tunic
a ring bearing the seal of Telenius
a steel dagger
a cloak of midnight
a vivid green party dress
a lochaber axe
a black steel sword
a blackjack
a small hatchet
sturdy leather boots
a practice sword
a scythe
a sickle
a fine longsword
a sturdy tunic of Aturi leather
a fine leather tunic
a pair of sturdy leather sleeves
a pair of fine leather gloves
a long cape of Aturi leather
a fine leather bracer
a monk's habit
dwarven plate mail
a thick dwarven helmet
a long mithril voulge
a dwarven war axe
some chain manacles
a studded leather vest
a long blue tunic
a well-crafted yew staff
a ragged tunic
a moonstone ring
a fluted mace
a slim steel dagger
a longsword
officer's insignia armbands
a tigerseye pendant
a black steel sword
a copper shortsword
a fauchard-fork
a dark gray tunic
a black tunic
a black tunic
a dark gray tunic
a dark gray tunic
an iron shortsword
a dirty apron
a leather whip
a frayed leather whip
rough brown canvas pants
a heavy steel sword
a leather apron
a blackjack
a rusty short sword
a patched cape
a short spear
a sturdy steel breastplate
a lumberjack's axe
a simple green tunic
a simple green tunic
a pair of leather pants
a pair of leather pants
a dark bladed dagger
a simple golden ring
a heavy gold ring
a short spear
a brown-furred cloak
a black robe
a broom
a pair of spectacles
a bear-hide tunic
a pitch-black parka
a wooden spear
a steel axe
a pair of steel shod boots
a pitch-black parka
a wooden spear
a pair of soft buckskin boots
a brownish cloak
a steel axe
a steel sword
a pair of steel shod boots
a pitch-black parka
a wooden spear
a pair of soft buckskin boots
a brownish cloak
a black leather whip
a plain leather vest
a rusty dagger
a black steel helmet
a dirty white apron
a long wooden staff
a pair of black leggings
a pair of blue leggings
a pair of black leather leggings
an elven shortsword
a gem-studded belt
a pair of leather gloves
a steel dagger
a shortsword
a hand axe
a leather tunic
a steel sword
a diamond tiara
a studded leather jerkin
a blackjack
a pitchfork
a stiletto
a heavy ballista bolt
a heavy ballista bolt
a heavy ballista bolt
a light crossbow
a steel dagger
a steel-tipped spear
a studded leather vest
a rusted flail
a pair of leather breeches
a pair of spectacles
soaked bandages
soaked bandages
some thick leather leggings
a supple leather vest
the robe of tranquility
a pair of steel horseshoes
a pair of supple leather boots
a silver signet ring
a plain brown robe
a small iron dagger
an iron shortsword
a pure bronze mace
a sturdy mithril helm

Using the Crystal Island tunics as an example until I have more time to look into it, they ARE different objects. It's just they have absolutely no differences.

That seems like a silly waste of available objects, so I'll see about getting this fixed.

Some will likely take more time than others, but thanks for the heads up - I honestly never noticed/knew this.

PS If I forget, please email me and slam me. I'll do it, I just have a lot of things I'm trying to keep track of.

Thanks.

-Ish

Treasure items like rings and neckwear and stuff don't output their wear_flag into identify (or lore AFAIK). That's... frustrating. Not the end of the world, but if it is wearable, the wear flag should be in ID (at least in my opinion) and possibly some indication if it isn't wearable.

I fully expected to be ignored. I understand they are different objects (by VNUM) and that's why they show up in the official item search the way they do, but as you said, they're exactly equal... they shouldn't be different VNUMS...

There are some cases, like the lead keys from Glymarach where that is the desired behaviour (exactly the same but different VNUM), but even then there should be at most 2 of the items... The "real" one that works the door, and all the others are copies of the "fake" one that doesn't... unless the progs are tied to that somehow, which I would hope not, but I can't know for sure.

Anyway, thank you again. Fully expected to be ignored...

>they're exactly equal... they shouldn't be different VNUMS.

It's possible they have different descriptions.

There is very very little ROI on doing that work for something that isn't going to be seen except in the rare case it is lying on the ground.

Worn, Inventory, Container all display short desc. Long desc is only seen on the ground IIRC... Just make that short desc too. There I've saved you hours of new area work.

If Ishuli forgets, I'll nag him.

That said, I used a few extra tools and checked on a number of these items. There's a *lot* of these that I'd be uncomfortable or unable to change due to one (or more) of the following reasons.

1) Progs or quests involving the items which for whatever reason might require duplicate items.
2) Some of these are duplicate items, but within different (though often nearby) areas. There's not really a safe way to do this without just duplicating the item within the new area, otherwise it risks the game crashing if you're not careful. Think...random Udgaardian patrolman who happens to be visiting Seantryn Modan or something, vs. being on the trails.
3) Many of these are *truly* different items, just writer A and writer B both decided they wanted a pair of blue leggings in their area, or a steel sword, for example. Particularly with simple gear, it's not surprising that four different areas have "a steel sword" in them.
4) The classic example of the pitch-black ring. These are three different items of different mobs, and it's sorta the treasure hunt/prize that the tougher mob has an upgraded version of the item. Any area written today probably wouldn't let this fly, but I'm loathe to suddenly change decades-old areas and muck around in someone else's creative works.


Finally, there *are* the cases where it does appear that the writer used copy/paste to create individual vnum gear for each NPC, and those I wouldn't mind clearing up. I'll check back when I have a little more time myself, and/or check in with Ishuli, but sofar there's been maybe...two that appear to truly be duplicated gear.

As a work around, it might be possible to add some logic to eliminate duplicates on the item search side without changing anything in the game. Just filter out items that appear identical based on the limited information displayed in the search results when building the set of items the search tool knows about.

For instance, if multiple weapons have the same key words, come from the same area, are of the same type, and have the same material, weight, average, attack type and affects, then only include one of them in searchable database.

Maybe not the highest ROI given limited coder time.

>If Ishuli forgets, I'll nag him.
>
>That said, I used a few extra tools and checked on a number of
>these items. There's a *lot* of these that I'd be
>uncomfortable or unable to change due to one (or more) of the
>following reasons.
>
>1) Progs or quests involving the items which for whatever
>reason might require duplicate items.

I figured some of these might be true. Say, ballista bolts from Hamsah use VNUM for the progs for each gate. That seems like particularly bad un-lazy coding... Does it matter if one pulls a bolt from one gate and fires it from another? I can't imagine it does, but without looking at the prog, I wouldn't know.

>2) Some of these are duplicate items, but within different
>(though often nearby) areas. There's not really a safe way to
>do this without just duplicating the item within the new area,
>otherwise it risks the game crashing if you're not careful.
>Think...random Udgaardian patrolman who happens to be visiting
>Seantryn Modan or something, vs. being on the trails.

That's understandable, but also fixable. Just add a word to the description. For instance, for dark elf long sword... Why not have the Teth Azeleth be a "high quality" dark elf long sword?

>3) Many of these are *truly* different items, just writer A
>and writer B both decided they wanted a pair of blue leggings
>in their area, or a steel sword, for example. Particularly
>with simple gear, it's not surprising that four different
>areas have "a steel sword" in them.

I think this is fixable as well. Generic blue leggings, Light blue leggings, Dark blue leggings, Torn blue leggings, etc.

>4) The classic example of the pitch-black ring. These are
>three different items of different mobs, and it's sorta the
>treasure hunt/prize that the tougher mob has an upgraded
>version of the item. Any area written today probably wouldn't
>let this fly, but I'm loathe to suddenly change decades-old
>areas and muck around in someone else's creative works.

A low quality pitch black ring, A generic pitch black ring, A well made pitch black ring. I don't think that puzzle is giving anyone any enjoyment... just frustration. If CF owns the material, then current CF staff can make changes.

>Finally, there *are* the cases where it does appear that the
>writer used copy/paste to create individual vnum gear for each
>NPC, and those I wouldn't mind clearing up. I'll check back
>when I have a little more time myself, and/or check in with
>Ishuli, but sofar there's been maybe...two that appear to
>truly be duplicated gear.

I don't have all of the information you do, but as a co-worker likes to say, "If there isn't enough difference to make a difference, then there isn't a difference."

>If CF owns the material, then current CF staff can make changes.

It's a matter of where to allocate effort. Heroimms can't do this because they're heads-down on their own areas and haven't been sufficiently vetted to have access to areas other than their own. Team Area is busy riding heroimms to get their areas done, proofreading drafts, tweaking loaded (but not yet live) areas to correct balance issues, writing areas of their own, etc. The rest are either snooping someone, interacting with followers, handling cabal drama, etc.

If there's time, sure, I agree collapsing identical items into a single vnum and/or tweaking "similarly named" items with different stats to have slightly different names are both positive changes.

>>If Ishuli forgets, I'll nag him.
>>
>>That said, I used a few extra tools and checked on a number
>of
>>these items. There's a *lot* of these that I'd be
>>uncomfortable or unable to change due to one (or more) of
>the
>>following reasons.
>>
>>1) Progs or quests involving the items which for whatever
>>reason might require duplicate items.
>
>I figured some of these might be true. Say, ballista bolts
>from Hamsah use VNUM for the progs for each gate. That seems
>like particularly bad un-lazy coding... Does it matter if one
>pulls a bolt from one gate and fires it from another? I can't
>imagine it does, but without looking at the prog, I wouldn't
>know.

Probably, but I'm not harassing a coder about an existing, presumably working setup. I'm doubly not stepping on an area who's author is an existing IMP.

>>2) Some of these are duplicate items, but within different
>>(though often nearby) areas. There's not really a safe way
>to
>>do this without just duplicating the item within the new
>area,
>>otherwise it risks the game crashing if you're not careful.
>>Think...random Udgaardian patrolman who happens to be
>visiting
>>Seantryn Modan or something, vs. being on the trails.
>
>That's understandable, but also fixable. Just add a word to
>the description. For instance, for dark elf long sword...
>Why not have the Teth Azeleth be a "high quality" dark elf
>long sword?

Because presumably they want the item to appear exactly the same
as the gear from elsewhere for in-game consistency. Yes, it'll double up on the item search, but it'll be truly accurate. There *are* two items which can be found in two different locations.

>>3) Many of these are *truly* different items, just writer A
>>and writer B both decided they wanted a pair of blue
>leggings
>>in their area, or a steel sword, for example. Particularly
>>with simple gear, it's not surprising that four different
>>areas have "a steel sword" in them.
>
>I think this is fixable as well. Generic blue leggings, Light
>blue leggings, Dark blue leggings, Torn blue leggings, etc.

It's also an extra step to ask someone to check any incoming items
against *every* other item in the game for duplicate short
descriptions. I also don't want to reach a point where short
descriptions have to look like this to be acceptable:

"A three-foot, dull, worn sword made from Galadonian steel with a braided leather hilt"

Sorta negates the point of "short". If it's generic, cool, it's generic. There's a reason we don't run into these problems with Defiance :P

>>4) The classic example of the pitch-black ring. These are
>>three different items of different mobs, and it's sorta the
>>treasure hunt/prize that the tougher mob has an upgraded
>>version of the item. Any area written today probably
>wouldn't
>>let this fly, but I'm loathe to suddenly change decades-old
>>areas and muck around in someone else's creative works.
>
>A low quality pitch black ring, A generic pitch black ring, A
>well made pitch black ring. I don't think that puzzle is
>giving anyone any enjoyment... just frustration. If CF owns
>the material, then current CF staff can make changes.

We *CAN*, yes. Hence why changes and upgrades have been made to
areas such as FoN, Battlefields, etc over the years. I merely
would prefer not to. Someone took the time, effort, and
dedication to write the area. Unless there's some dire need to
remove/alter those efforts, I'd prefer not to. This just doesn't
strike me, personally, as needful enough to alter someone else's
creative work. (As an aside, I've totally loved that pitch-black
game for like 20 years. Feels like you've won the lottery finding
one of those good rings :P)

>>Finally, there *are* the cases where it does appear that the
>>writer used copy/paste to create individual vnum gear for
>each
>>NPC, and those I wouldn't mind clearing up. I'll check back
>>when I have a little more time myself, and/or check in with
>>Ishuli, but sofar there's been maybe...two that appear to
>>truly be duplicated gear.
>
>I don't have all of the information you do, but as a co-worker
>likes to say, "If there isn't enough difference to make a
>difference, then there isn't a difference."

So yes, there's a few spots that I wouldn't mind tweaking for general efficiency, but after a quick glance, there's not a ton that I'd feel comfortable about changing. Not that it *couldn't* be, but just...time, effort, personal belief, mechanical reasons, etc.

Also...that whole treasure thing I'll bring up. Look will tell you wear-slot, but also shorts out when it comes to treasure. Clothing works, so dunno.

I noticed a couple things in that list that are not dupes if you look at the stats. Like the three "a thick-handled shillelagh" I am pretty sure each one has a different attack type. But that's just a small number, there are a lot of dupes.

Instead of the exact same short name. Long name might be difference, but the number of times you'll actually see that (only when item is laying on the ground) is vanishingly small. Personally I'd dump it altogether and try to enforce short names being unique.