** Just interested if this is normal **
** not overly fussed, just think its **
** silly, Especially the duration. **

You are affected by:
Spell: 'infravision' for 61 hours.
Spell: 'detect magic' for 35 hours.
Spell: 'detect invis' for 27 hours.
Skill: 'truss' modifies hit roll by -5 for 17 hours.
Skill: 'truss' modifies dexterity by -3 for 17 hours.
Skill: 'blackjack' for 2 hours.
Skill: 'blackjack' for 0 hours.
Skill: 'blindfold' for -1 hours.
Skill: 'gag' for -1 hours.


** Not to mention being unable to do anything **
** Nothing in the game prevents you from doing **
** Anything for nearly 10 minutes, waiting bored ** At least with neuro you can save against it. **

Saw that on dios. I've heard people bitch and moan about #### like stun and sleep and how 5 hours is insanely long. At least you can do #### once a fight starts. But the few logs that I dug up with truss in it are stupid. Unable to do absolutely anything, unless someone else untrusses you Lol.

Seriously which stupid immortal thought of that. Forget doesnt last long because it is so "powerfull". But 17 ticks worth of doing nothing waiting unable to do anything. Silly. Really silly. I guess you might as well give necros perma -1 sleep, Bards as well. Stun should last atleast 24 hours. Cranial a week or so. Might as well make choke be stackable whilst they sleep, like a a boa, enough of it and you can kill them!

YEAH GO BABY hehe. I should design skills for cf to impliment. Lol

"Seriously which stupid immortal thought of that."
"YEAH GO BABY hehe. I should design skills for cf to impliment. Lol"

Do you ever get embarrased when you find out you were way off the mark after saying something like this?

Christ, at least leave yourself a way out so you don't look like a
complete jackass when it turns out you were wrong.

You actually seem proud of your ignorance concerning game issues, and yet still feel the need to comment on balance issues that you obviously don't fully understand.

I'm an RTS freak. When I was playing Dune: Emperor I was ranked no.1 in the US on the ladder. But if someone asked me anything about game balance issues or tactics that would apply today, I'd look at them like they were nuts. How the heck should I know about a game I haven't played in over 2 years?

Apparently you don't share that sentiment.

I'm surprised the imms actually even bothered to post a response to this, if I was one I'd have just have had a good laugh and ignored it, and let some people feeling a little more charitable explain things to you.

apparantly it seems binders are somewhat popular now, but I'll give a pretty standard response, that does somewhat agree with what Imms have said. Truss is immensely more difficult to pull off than any of the other skills mentioned, as well as the fact that *ANYONE* can come by and ruin all the work if they feel like. At least newbies can't wake up slept people. Secondly, you're making assumptions about how truss works that are incorrect.

To conclude, having experienced both made use of truss' full deadliness, and been frustrated many times by it's (often) uselessness, I think truss is just fine. If you don't think so, feel free to make a binder and abuse it to your fullest ability. It's a hell of a lot harder to do than you think.

- ...ah, to hell with character names, I've played too many.

>** Just interested if this is normal **
>** not overly fussed, just think its **
>** silly, Especially the duration. **
>
>You are affected by:
>Spell: 'infravision' for 61 hours.
>Spell: 'detect magic' for 35 hours.
>Spell: 'detect invis' for 27 hours.
>Skill: 'truss' modifies hit roll by -5 for 17 hours.
>Skill: 'truss' modifies dexterity by -3 for 17 hours.
>Skill: 'blackjack' for 2 hours.
>Skill: 'blackjack' for 0 hours.
>Skill: 'blindfold' for -1 hours.
>Skill: 'gag' for -1 hours.
>
>
>** Not to mention being unable to do anything **
>** Nothing in the game prevents you from doing **
>** Anything for nearly 10 minutes, waiting bored **

I'd be happy to look at this, but I should mention there are a
lot of things in the game that do things that nothing else does.
That doesn't mean there's a problem with them.

>At least with neuro you can save against it. **

That's a weird assumption to make.

>Saw that on dios. I've heard people bitch and moan about ####
>like stun and sleep and how 5 hours is insanely long. At least
>you can do #### once a fight starts. But the few logs that I
>dug up with truss in it are stupid. Unable to do absolutely
>anything, unless someone else untrusses you Lol.

I'd counter that by pointing out, at the very least, you need
to invest a lot more effort in getting that truss into place
than, say, anything else in the game. I'm leery to compare a
single command's affect timer against that of the result of
multiple must-succeed commands as though they were the same,
especially based on this snippet or a few logs.

>Seriously which stupid immortal thought of that. Forget doesnt
>last long because it is so "powerfull". But 17 ticks worth of
>doing nothing waiting unable to do anything. Silly. Really
>silly. I guess you might as well give necros perma -1 sleep,
>Bards as well. Stun should last atleast 24 hours. Cranial a
>week or so. Might as well make choke be stackable whilst they
>sleep, like a a boa, enough of it and you can kill them!

Their timers might seem too long (or too short), but they're generally balanced to their difficulty. Too, none of them build
upon previous skills which also must succeed.

If you're unfamiliar with truss, it isn't a single command you
can just walk up to someone and use. You don't actually play,
as I understand it, so there is a chance you may not have known.

>YEAH GO BABY hehe. I should design skills for cf to impliment.
>Lol

Oh, you kidder. But seriously, if do you have ideas for
skills, feel free to e-mail me directly and I'll make sure
anything of use gets forwarded to the right people.

Qaledus
qaledus@carrionfields.com

This is a good example of what I meant with civilized response(it appeared while I was typing the psychological analysis) that does not lauch defensive mechanisms. Well done, Qaledus.

PS I just like to analyze stuff, no offense intended to anyone(my other post included), as I tried to stay neutral in the post.

>This is a good example of what I meant with civilized
>response(it appeared while I was typing the psychological
>analysis) that does not lauch defensive mechanisms. Well done,
>Qaledus.

Thanks. I credit the DSM-IV(-TR).

>PS I just like to analyze stuff, no offense intended to
>anyone(my other post included), as I tried to stay neutral in
>the post.

You don't need Psych 101 to know that if someone takes a swing
at you, you're going to want to kick them in the junk. ;)

nt

If you bind legs, bind hands, gag and blindfold someone, the bind hands isn't coming off for 24+ hrs. If you're going to just leave someone there, truss is actually a BAD idea.

It's pretty damn hard to make me look good on these forums, but I think you do it. Thanks pal! :)

After all, since we're obviously unworthy of your keen eye for game balance, perhaps you should find a more tightly balanced game to play.

Why are you still here? (This isn't rhetorical. I'm really curious why bitter, joyless, myopic conspiracy theorists would be an albatross on our forums for years and years.)

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Well howdy valg, Nice to see an ever present constructive reply.

First of all let me get my "tat" out of the way.

Assumptions Assumptions Assumptions. You never were a bright spark in regards to what goes on. Anything outside of your box is either not possible, not happening or isnt worthy of spending time on. You remind me of a child at times, what was that saying....

Thought thought(a person), thought his feet were out of bed, so he got out to have a look.

Now to answer you seriously. Like a more mature person would.

Normally after a few months imms pick up on players distain about certain skills or spells and such. Poisoner thief duration got axed and other similar , at time powerfull, skills and spells or supplications got tweaked. Yet I see truss hasnt, now that could be because a good enough player hasnt bothered to actually abuse trussing to its full potential, I dont know.

I dont hold all the information, which I would assume the imms do, in my hands I merely make observations. But That is a whole other bag of beans, lack of information passed down from imms to players, but that is by choice and a problem that was generated by choice.

Bitter, no, far from bitter.
Joyless, no, Far from it.
Myopic, dunno, dont know its meaning.
Conspiracy Theorist, yes, I even managed to get broken #### fixed(my keen eye for game balance, as you put it, proved me right and those I was trying to convince/prove to wrong(not bragging to those who were actually helping/constructive(ps thanks for fixing the problems).)
Albatross, hahahaha, Valg seriously man Your only repsect from me comes from the things that you do for cf that makes it better. In other aspects your nothing but a petulant ill informed person. You tried your hardest to cause me pain, you seem to still be furious that I proved you a fool. I only stood up to the plate to play ball after you started pitching insults.

It will be interesting to see if this post remains on the board.

myopic

adj 1: unable to see distant objects clearly 2: lacking foresight or scope; "a short view of the problem"; "shortsighted policies"; "shortsighted critics derided the plan"; "myopic thinking"
So basically, it's shortsighted.

I also offer you an advice. When you bring up your ideas to forums, try to post them in constructive manner, without the attitude that basically says:"Immortals are stupid, good thing I am here to implement for them.", as such attitude will lead to immortals taking the defensive stance, perhaps even rejecting your idea because of the way you in order to slight you. They would think along the lines of "It cannot be good because that a-hole posted it".

Now we come to the part why it is important for them to slight you. You claimed them stupid, basically said that Immortals should do what you tell them to do. In order to deny this more effectively, they will slight you and will also have to deny your idea, only because it came from the person who called them stupid.

Such response is very human approach to solve difficult or threatening situations. Basically, only thing you accomplished with this post was Valguarnera replying to say, "We don't need you to tell us what to do. Get lost.". Basically, his only goal was to rid CF from you, who threatened the CF Immortal stuff by calling them incompetent(because of thing X). And the other accomplishment was Nepenthe calling out to say "We are not stupid", Which would give Valgs post more authority(or other way around, depending which posted first).

The Imms are only human(not real gods) and will respond to attacks with psychological defense mechanisms(such as denial), which are not a constructive way to solving things.

Flamewars in forums are a perfect example for this, as the defense mechanisms of both sides are triggered and both keep replying to get the last word, to deny or slight the other, independent of the matter that the same things were also said in that persons five previous posts.

This also explains the reply of a reply of a reply of a reply.. structure of a flame thread, as both parties react to the previous thread with their own reply, as the opponent must not get the last word, he must not be right!

Your post showed and Valgs response confirmed that you had had a flamewar with Immortals before, and that likely, neither of the parties remained civil about it, both hurting each others feelings.

Therefore, I urge you to post ideas in the manner that does not launch anyones defense mechanisms.

I also urge immortals to think all ideas and see if they are good for the game that are in the threads, despite the way who posts them or how.

Let us all be open to new ideas to and see if they are good for the game or not. Despite who posts them or how. Psychological defence mechanisms are not a constructive way to response to things, let's all be open about it!

PS. I didn't remember the full contents of Nepenthe's post at the time of writing, but the tone was defensive, he was clearly offended by the arrogance in the initial post.

nt

Lots of people post here about stuff they don't like and get helpful answers. Heck, most threads are about features or trends people aren't pleased with- it's more a useful discussion than saying "X is fine! Don't touch it!"

However, if you rant, flame, and misinform, after a while people are going to get tired of sifting through your posts and correcting your many misconceptions. Hastur is exactly like Josiah there- he'll start with false premises, rile himself into a storm over the "imbalances" they create (Oh noes! Dirt kick!), and then insult the staff and/or playerbase for not seeing this obvious injustice. When someone shows up and does that once, they get the benefit of the doubt, and I'll happily explain why their premises are false. (Probably along with some text about that not being a good way to get a productive discussion going.) This happens- people often see rare incidents and assume they're common, misinterpret something that was said, encounter something only while it's broken, or overestimate the impact of a feature in the broader context.

When someone does that over and over, however, the benefit of the doubt erodes. I'm not going to invest my time calmly going over each point raised by a Josiah/Hastur type of poster. If they're going to spend all their time picking fights instead of making sure they know what the heck they're talking about (and how to present it), I have other things to do. However, I do have a vested interest in discouraging this style of posting, and overall we keep these boards to a reasonable level of liveliness without letting it devolve into a giant mess.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Seriously. No wonder no one came to your birthday party.

There was alot of sarcasium throwen in there, but I guess that is the bane of the internet. Everyone makes assumptions that what is typed is infact the direct meaning word for word.

Now, the more directed question. Why have a skill in a game which fewer people are playing, more indipendance is required, that requires another person to free you? Why is there such a long duration on the skill? And why the total inability to anything?

Only reason I ask is that I find it fascinating that (sarcasium comming) the immortals that norammly take their time to make a skill that is usefull but can be countered in one way or another, spent #### all time thinking about Truss.

And found yet another thing that was imbalanced about the game. Time to start bitching so that it gets changed. GOD KNOWS YOU ARE GOOD AT THIS.

But this time you are wrong. Try out a binder. First off make a successful blackjack. Ok you made it and didn't get bashed to death. Secondly make sure EVERY single bind works without failing because if it fails the jig is up. Third, make sure the person didn't call any friends to come help them out before the gag went in..IF the gag was successful because yes, this will also save their ass. Finally if all goes well make sure little lowbies dont come around and unbind your target. This happens often and if you ask why the goodie unbound the baddie or vice versa try not to pull your ####ing hair out when they say "I love doing that!" Only until you have gone through the absolute horror and frustration that all of the other people who have played binders have gone through....THEN and ONLY THEN CAN YOU BITCH!!

Signin' off

Wow, that was like awesome (no sarcasium).

Now to get something like that out of an immortal would have been near impossible. Find out for yourself or ingame would have been their responce(assuming it wasnt me posting).

I never said I played a binder, which you picked up on, I never knew half of those things. I still think the duration could be tweaked, but that is just my gripe with wasted time and overuse of long duration affects in game.

Thanks for the reply man guess players are more informative than immortals at times.

See imms, wouldnt have been overly hard just to dot point a responce. Well im not going to tell you how to do your job, because you wont listen to anything I have to say except when you want to unload all your pented up frustration.

Go player POWA, down with the Immortals!!
(yes that was sarcastic)

and the skill truss is not overpowered, believe me. I used it to good effect in the rites when I conspired with Huraz against Rhuean and Spyko (gawain, or whatever he liked to be called). It requires you to succeed in bindhands and bindlegs and tie. Now when and if the either of the first two fail you are left with odd ropes that prevent you trying again and thus, as a thief are left with very little in terms of options. If you go to truss now, unless you earn more points I believe you cannot get cheapshot so its not instant death for the victim. My first binder had up to shadowdrag and knife. Second went to truss and cheapshot. Nowadays you cant, which is a shame.

My biggest pain when playing the binder thief is that there was always and I mean ALWAYS some random passer-by asshole willing to untie the bindings just to annoy you and I was a keen petitioner of the now present lagging effects of 3rd parties trying to untie people. Play a binder and see how frsutrating it is to:

A) Master the bindings, especially with a duergar (my 2nd binder/thug)
B) Get someone in a situation where NOONE can come to their aid (getting good at gag helps but the lag from blackjack often allows them to detail their cb Jacked on blahblah!)
C) Play a rager one so you dont even get the benefit of using scrolls, which with a person at your mercy for so long is very cool.

Take it easy Hastur and if you have any specific questions, drop me a mail.

-----Abernyte