Ground Control.

Improved Flee.

And that's all I got.

Any more?

(I'm serious about ground control btw)

IT's probably the most broken thing in cf at the moment.

In a game where you have a assassinate/martial trance, which are almost an assured kill with stalks, where you have emperor powers with sick gear, where you have basically unkillable provost, where you can't raid the tree if the sunwarden's there (and would be even worse if the other leaders are promoted,) where you can't raid the temple if the Flame is there (and would be even worse) and where Ishuli is canoewhacking FTW, you're complaining about bat?!

Multiple paladins tried to bat me over many chars and very often in the past half year or so when immpowerment was lifted. None have ever succeeded at killing me. It's a good skill to make someone run, maybe. Once in a very blue moon it will kill an unprepped self-lagging char of yours, but that would mostly be on you and not on bat.

Even Shaapa's current botmaster5000 is way more broken with auto-sleep, then vault-bash-bash for total command denial and without you having a single chance at doing anything.

The ability to hit unblockable strikes that lag and maledict is OP and universally useful.

There's plenty of ways to avoid everything you listed. What's the anti-bat build?

> What's the anti-bat build?

How about some of the other stuff he mentioned?

Assassinate, to name one. Unless you think no-trance assassin would die during failed assassination lag due to bat.

Depending on my build, as an evil, bat paladin is not that high among things I'd be worried about. That doesn't mean I'd find them easy to kill, just that other stuff figures to have a higher chance of killing me than bat paladin.

Doesn't mean it's not OP. I'm not sure I'd say Bat by itself but I remember facing a Tribunal Paladin a while back as a fully ABS offense shifter and I had several levels on him but not only was he able to defend against all my attacks but he was throwing 3-5 melee attacks and bat, racking up -100+ hp recovery and mana recovery and other stats. I didn't die to him but he made me look pathetic.

Champion paladins in general are kinda on par with how STSF/trance seems to build, it doesn't have cutoff but the huge surge in defense/offense and with the ability to lag (Bat) makes it quite powerful. Even STSF by itself is really powerful borderline OP, "But" because lots of people aren't landing massive PK numbers with it, it's generally accepted as ok.

Champions are going to "win" most situations with just bat even if it doesn't net a kill. Retaliation makes them basically immune to their biggest threats (like kotegaeshi).

And Isildur my point is that if I know an assassin is on I can just sit on a river. There's a feasible counter for every build mentioned above. I don't know any way to counter bat except weapon breaker (assuming that retaliation doesn't stop that too). But even then with easy access to Maran powers now days it'd be easy to get a non-breakable staff or polearm too.

It really just boils down to the fact that the strikes are unblockable. It may not seem that bad because there hasn't been a proper ganking champion yet. Most of the one's have been played by Shaapa who tends to prefer solo PK or Jalim who can't make friends.

Once there's a Caldysias of Champions you'll see why it's broken.

I'm not going to spend my whole login standing on a river. And, honestly, neither would you. You'd log out, or you'd go do other stuff and take on some reasonable amount of risk. I would try to make it hard for enemy assassin, but if he's good then eventually he gets his shot.

Without having played a bat paladin, some ideas:

1. Assassinate, prep as needed to survive if you miss.
2. Trance + preps + sensei buki + weapons paladins don't learn, try for owaza/dsk finish.
3. Orc chief + preps + horde, try for permalag.
4. Same as above but fire giant Warmaster with trapping.
5. Binder, prep as needed to survive if you miss. Bail if you don't land all the bindings.
6. Necro or AP and sleep, prep as needed to survive if you miss. Harder on a Maran bat paladin, but not impossible.
7. Bard and sleep, bard songs, throw on some scrolls and talismans, fiend, sing damage. Bonus if you have insects.
8. Muter w/ the standard muter tactics and good gear.
9. Add sigil to any of the above (minus orc).
10. Someone who's really good at druids might manage something.

At the end of the day bat paladin doesn't have stealth, he can't knock you out, and he can't permalag you. He's just hard to kill in straight up melee where he's spamming bat. For fun, I looked up some bat paladins and below are their solo deaths. I didn't crunch the numbers to break down who exactly is killing them, but there's no shortage of them dying one-on-one:

Selionar:
Jun 17, 2015|Lv 38|The Outlander Refuge|vs 1: <38> Chiazep (100%, smash)
Aug 19, 2015|Lv 51|Feanwyyn Weald|vs 1: <51> Sodsob (100%, caustic smash)
Aug 28, 2015|Lv 51|Galadon|vs 1: <51> Sodsob (100%, ghostly flame)
Sep 19, 2015|Lv 51|Galadon|vs 1: <51> Yuno (0%, hellfire)
Nov 8, 2015 |Lv 51|Balator|vs 1: <51> Golthazar (100%, flurry)
Dec 13, 2015|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <51> Zalgordrax (100%, soul drain)
Jun 24, 2016|Lv 51|The Frozen Gorge|vs 1: <50> Grondarg (100%, disembowelment) *Disemboweled*
Jul 13, 2016|Lv 51|The Basilica|vs 1: <48> Rokhwar (100%, punch)
Aug 6, 2016 |Lv 51|The Imperial Lands|vs 1: <51> Rokhwar (100%, torments)

Ildilintra:
Sep 2, 2013 |Lv 20|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <24> Gildav (100%, cleave)
Sep 2, 2013 |Lv 22|East Sumner's Road|vs 1: <22> Llocerat (100%, slash)
Sep 3, 2013 |Lv 32|The Spire of the Blood Tribunal|vs 1: <39> Trabbi (100%, peck)
Oct 29, 2013|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <51> Damolo (100%, crush)

Toktok:
Apr 21, 2013|Lv 13|East Sumner's Road|vs 1: <18> Nahvriel (100%, stab)
Apr 23, 2013|Lv 15|Troglodyte Caverns|vs 1: <22> Saekia (100%, slash)
May 9, 2013 |Lv 28|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <32> Drortcbel (100%, infernal power)
May 9, 2013 |Lv 28|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <32> Drortcbel (100%, infernal power)
May 10, 2013|Lv 28|Balator|vs 1: <32> Isnesis (100%, cleave)
May 11, 2013|Lv 34|Balator|vs 1: <41> Merf (100%, divine power)
May 14, 2013|Lv 36|Fortress of Light|vs 1: <45> Jebaral (100%, infernal power)
May 18, 2013|Lv 36|The Jungle Ruin|vs 1: <40> Bokru (100%, bleeding)
May 18, 2013|Lv 36|Lower Cragstone|vs 1: <43> Wiloynr (100%, punch)
May 30, 2013|Lv 45|Voralian City|vs 1: <41> Bokru (100%, disruption)
Jun 2, 2013 |Lv 51|Northern Foothills|vs 1: <51> Noviask (100%, iceball)
Jun 3, 2013 |Lv 51|The Redhorn Mountains|vs 1: <51> Nyst (100%, KB)
Jun 3, 2013 |Lv 51|Fortress of Light|vs 1: <51> Zhenyen (100%, withering)
Jun 7, 2013 |Lv 51|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: <51> Delfan (100%, parting blow)
Jun 7, 2013 |Lv 51|Fortress of Light|vs 1: <51> Kraldinor (100%, )
Jun 8, 2013 |Lv 51|The Imperial Lands|vs 1: <51> Kazalyettn (100%, stream of acid)
Jun 10, 2013|Lv 51|Voralian City|vs 1: <51> Kraldinor (100%, )
Jun 10, 2013|Lv 51|The Imperial Palace|vs 1: <51> Jebaral (100%, kick)
Jun 14, 2013|Lv 51|Outside Hamsah Mu'tazz|vs 1: <51> Jebaral (100%, infernal power)
Jun 14, 2013|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <51> Delfan (100%, defilement)
Jun 14, 2013|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: <51> Delfan (100%, defilement)
Jun 15, 2013|Lv 51|Grinning Skull Village|vs 1: <51> Yegtheg (100%, defilement)
Jun 15, 2013|Lv 51|Grinning Skull Village|vs 1: <51> Zhenyen (100%, acid storm)
Jun 15, 2013|Lv 51|The Stone's Embrace|vs 1: <51> Kraldinor (100%, torments)
Jun 22, 2013|Lv 51|Voralian City|vs 1: <51> Yegtheg (100%, slash)
Jun 25, 2013|Lv 51|Outskirts of Tir-Talath|vs 1: <51> Kraldinor (100%, )

Salmt:
Aug 10, 2012|Lv 47|Voralian City|vs 1: Narissorin (100%, KB)
Aug 17, 2012|Lv 51|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: Hiniisi (100%, flaming bite)
Aug 27, 2012|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Gharotuer (100%, savage feeding)
Aug 30, 2012|Lv 51|Balator|vs 1: Ezgrint (100%, torments)
Sep 18, 2012|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Krunk (100%, savage feeding)

Ixsharea:
Jun 2, 2012 |Lv 27|Mount Calandaryl|vs 1: Shtrayke (100%, acidic bite)
Jun 2, 2012 |Lv 27|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Tarlita (100%, beating)
Jun 7, 2012 |Lv 28|Hamsah Mu'tazz|vs 1: Gharotuer (100%, slice)
Jun 19, 2012|Lv 32|Outlying Villages|vs 1: Motian (100%, pound)
Jun 20, 2012|Lv 32|East Sumner's Road|vs 1: Ragloghlin (100%, black light)
Jun 22, 2012|Lv 32|The Redhorn Mountains|vs 1: Krelthalious (100%, acidic bite)
Jun 30, 2012|Lv 37|Aldevari|vs 1: Detogu (100%, punch)
Jul 1, 2012 |Lv 37|Fortress of Light|vs 1: Felntalos (0%, ) *Assassinated*
Jul 26, 2012|Lv 47|The Drogran Hills|vs 1: Xasivus (100%, bite)
Aug 22, 2012|Lv 51|The Redhorn Mountains|vs 1: Gharotuer (100%, claw)
Aug 26, 2012|Lv 51|Khalid River|vs 1: Uggah (100%, frigid chop)
Aug 26, 2012|Lv 51|The Dwarf Forest|vs 1: Ezgrint (100%, kick)
Aug 26, 2012|Lv 51|Fortress of Light|vs 1: Gvilond (100%, torments)
Aug 30, 2012|Lv 51|The Imperial Palace|vs 1: Ezgrint (100%, torments)
Sep 2, 2012 |Lv 51|Balator|vs 1: Gharotuer (100%, claw)
Sep 2, 2012 |Lv 51|Voralian City|vs 1: Gvilond (100%, )
Sep 11, 2012|Lv 51|Grinning Skull Village|vs 1: Gharotuer (100%, savage feeding)
Sep 22, 2012|Lv 51|The Imperial Lands|vs 1: Dhavid (100%, bleeding)

Furdwik:
Dec 14, 2011|Lv 20|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Rangor (100%, stab)
Dec 15, 2011|Lv 27|Mausoleum|vs 1: Jonafrong (100%, wrath)
Dec 16, 2011|Lv 31|Seantryn Harbor|vs 1: Mhournhul (100%, poison)
Dec 16, 2011|Lv 31|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Cabakso (100%, iceball)
Dec 20, 2011|Lv 35|Prison of Glymarach|vs 1: Mhournhul (100%, punch)
Dec 21, 2011|Lv 35|The Inn of the Eternal Star|vs 1: Dyrruorta (100%, slice)
Dec 21, 2011|Lv 35|The Seaport of Hamsah Mu'tazz|vs 1: Feyhan (100%, cut)

Jerohk:
Apr 3, 2010 |Lv 27|Mausoleum|vs 1: Mushga (100%,KB)
Apr 12, 2010|Lv 35|The Redhorn Mountains|vs 1: Zoslaun (100%,KB)
Apr 21, 2010|Lv 38|Mount Kiadana-Rah|vs 1: Corvalah (100%,KB)
May 10, 2010|Lv 43|Graveyard|vs 1: Cruggin (100%,KB)
May 19, 2010|Lv 46|Darsylon|vs 1: Charine (100%,KB)
May 22, 2010|Lv 47|Fortress of Light|vs 1: Charine (100%,KB)
May 22, 2010|Lv 47|Loch Terradian|vs 1: Behnistek (100%,KB)
May 23, 2010|Lv 47|Voralian City|vs 1: Gvantulak (100%,KB)
May 26, 2010|Lv 50|Feanwyyn Weald|vs 1: Charine (100%,KB)
May 26, 2010|Lv 50|Fortress of Light|vs 1: Charine (100%,KB)
May 28, 2010|Lv 50|Balator|vs 1: Molo (100%,KB)
Jun 3, 2010 |Lv 51|Balator|vs 1: Vintus (100%,KB)
Jun 16, 2010|Lv 51|The Imperial Lands|vs 1: Vintus (100%,KB)
Jun 27, 2010|Lv 51|Fortress of Light|vs 1: Ckath (100%,KB)
Aug 7, 2010 |Lv 51|Domain of Eternal Night|vs 1: Zubei (100%,KB)
Sep 18, 2010|Lv 51|The North Road|vs 1: Ohbehb (100%,KB)
Sep 22, 2010|Lv 51|Maethien|vs 1: Thnoumundin (100%,KB)
Sep 25, 2010|Lv 51|The Eastern Road|vs 1: Kdorff (100%,KB)
Oct 1, 2010 |Lv 51|Desert of Araile|vs 1: Thnoumundin (100%,KB)
Oct 2, 2010 |Lv 51|Northern Foothills|vs 1: Calopsita (100%,KB)
Nov 12, 2010|Lv 51|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: Ohbehb (100%,KB)
Dec 11, 2010|Lv 51|Voralian City|vs 1: Zanneel (100%,KB)
Jan 19, 2011|Lv 51|Northern Foothills|vs 1: Mharlndarn (100%, disruption)
Feb 7, 2011 |Lv 51|The Slave Mines of Sitran|vs 1: Jerrokrar (100%, parting blow)
Feb 28, 2011|Lv 51|The Keep of Barovia|vs 1: Throm (100%, )
Feb 28, 2011|Lv 51|The Galadon Sewers|vs 1: Throm (100%, pierce)
Mar 13, 2011|Lv 51|The Ruins of Ostalagiah|vs 1: Karkarrak (100%, infernal power)
Mar 25, 2011|Lv 51|The Frigid Wasteland|vs 1: Kjaz (100%, )

Olvantyr:
Mar 17, 2013|Lv 29|Fortress of Light|vs 1: <35> Korms (100%, pierce)

Champions - yes, but not bat paladins.

In other words, they had this awesome overpowered skill but failed to use it to its full capability. I guess I can see that.

Who is a bat paladin? Koidel? Zurra? Not sure they have PBFs.

Koidel, Fijhadjah, Taeluin, Derleakok (I think).

I'll buy their PBFs if they have enough hours. Koidel's stats, however, need to be taken with a grain of salt given the player. He makes every build look OP.

Here are those guys hours and final rank, along with Zurra:

Koidel - 218h, lvl51
Fijhadjah - 109h, lvl40
Taeluin - 102h, lvl51
Derleakok - 94h, lvl51
Zurra - 203h, lvl41


With Fijhadjah and Zurra, at least, their stats wouldn't give us the full picture since they didn't spend any time at hero. Maybe bat only shines when you level sit at 40. The others, depending on how long they spent at hero ranks, should give a better picture.

Just bought the PBF for all five.

Hero range allows for a much larger hp pool and damredux which lets you survive the onslaught. So it becomes just powerful, not really OP (my opinion).

Marshal rally + bat still eats people alive though.

I don't know if it's fully automated or no, but Koidel at least was part of the bunch I just picked up. May want to email the imms to change yours.

.

That was me... woo... and he was more of a RP character than anything else.

But the build was definitely very defensive but had limited kill-sealing capabilities. And at the same time, I'm not a good pker anyways, so even if bat were OP, I wouldn't have optimized the skill that's for sure.

Assassin's also don't learn polearm...so yeah, that can hurt.

Do you remember what you were wielding/wearing and what preps you had up? Also, was there a vulnerability at play?

Any disarm+lag kills him.

Otherwise you can just piss him off by looting his weapons consistently (if you survive bat spam, that is).

Bat is OP on lowlevels in that it doesn't require anything but choosing right race. All other "OP builds" require effort to build.

I agree. Should be made to be at least 1 round. None of this two bats between rounds nonsense.

Annoyingly powerful. It removes a lot of my motivation to stay in a fight as a mage more than being deadly, except in the case of shifters as stated below. Still, being able to take away hundreds of mp each shot is just nuts, I kinda wish it was more like the way Iceball's MV drain was changed.

That thing's been more or less unchanged for like 20+ years. It's super nice for certain situations, but even in a perfect world, I tended to find just taking people's hp down to 0 was more useful than the mana/mv hit.

SvS dude. SvS.

Lump it into the killing OP skills like some people will talk about (throw or ground control) but it's just enormously strong in it's own way.

Bloody shackles on a build designed to win in a cage match.

Sounds like Ehren Guard Vindicator is your dream build, go!

Problem is, there aren't enough wanted people. It's gross when you get the chance to use it, but you don't get that many opportunities.

I've stopped getting midlevel flags because it's so annoying and troublesome.

With such a small player base I don't see the appeal of a cabal that encourages guild sitting and waiting for something to happen.

Maybe it's the safety of it that's attractive. Can sit around and look at your set all day with little worry about getting PKd. I dunno?

It's the fact that they have the most active imm who is always willing to provide immteraction.

Plus, sitting in an empty cabal is boring. Having other people around to BS with, roleplay, interact, argue with, etc makes things more fun than sitting there emoting at your inner.

How about trying to kill people?

Seems like you're saying that Trib (certain members excluded) is the new Herald.

I'm saying roleplay appeals to a lot of the people that play roleplaying games.

Right now, Trib provides the best opportunity for RP (through a full cabal and extremely active Imm), while still allowing for some PK. I can see why people would want to play it. And if that's what they enjoy, I'm not about to tell them they're playing the game wrong.

Especially egregious against shapeshifters because once landed, you better get away and hope you have enough mana left to wait it out. Since fleeing on foot is tough against a summoner, you're likely to eat a couple energy drains along the way.

And if a mummy or wight lands sleep on a shapeshifter in form, forget practically ensures a kill.

I have survived Tavlin forgetting me, but not Ahtieli :(

Get the shaft in many ways. They have to revert to use any inherent skills, can't use certain cabal powers without reverting, ie. insects, and are the only class that can't benefit from items that grant undispellable resists to anything, like ancient dragon hides.

But truly, Forget is horrible on shifters. Not only is it annoying to die, it's very annoying to get away and have no option but to die anyway.

I don't think Ground Control is really OP. It's Nage Waza plus Ground Fighter which makes it very strong.

I'm on the fence about it but I am leaning toward the side that says it isn't OP too with the exception of gang fights.

It's a little OP for ganging people. They should make it so you can't throw people who aren't targeting you, like kot and kan.

NT

gr

NT

I don't think I've been permalagged by throw in ages.