I know this has been on the radar for quite some time. But let's switch the radar off and just return Obs/Exp edge points.

Yes there is an argument that more edges make the game worse (hello Umiron), but I think most of us prefer a bad MMO game with more players to a good MMO game with little players.

Bringing edges back will make many people happy and will make NOONE unhappy. I think that alone is enough to revert the change.

Thank you.

A poor edge system is better than "no" edges at all. So clearly bringing back the old obs/exp edge points is preferable to the current state, until a better system can be implemented (especially when that does not seem to be likely to happen any time soon given the current coder resources).

Personally, I can't see myself rolling a new character while the edge drought lasts. I never obsessively farmed every possible obs/exp edge point, but at least I managed to accrue enough to slowly pick a few edges across a character's lifespan. Actually now that I think of it, I roll new characters so rarely that the repetitiveness of obs/exp (re)gathering for a new PC was not really an issue for me.

Oh well, if nothing changes kicking the habit is probably for the best. 8)

If you didn't obsessively farm edges and just want to pick a few.. the new system works in your favor, not playing because the new system will actually make you more competitive seems really strange to me.

Some of us just like the feel of picking edges. It feels good. Makes your character feel a little more...unique and your own.

NT

If people enjoy them, it doesn't matter if we all pick the same edges.

I, like many others, enjoy the customization they offer. The prospect of edges also helps keep interest in a character, if you can look forward to picking new ones as the character progresses (e.g. at hero when other mechanical options are exhausted with no more levels to gain or skills to practise).

Possibly mitigating the customization argument: there's a ton of commonality to which edges people choose.

If every assassin takes edge X, then when you take edge X are you really "customizing" your build? You're just like every other assassin.

Not in customizing through edges. If some edge(s) get always chosen, they are too good and not balanced with the other choices (there certainly are quite a few, but they've been discussed elsewhere).

albeit briefly. I completely agree.

It's not "take the edge noone has", it's customizing YOUR character.

So no, you didn't counter.

P.S. That being said, I have played a few assassins, none of which chose Nage Waza as Master edge.

I don't think a few edges are really possible right now for most people. My current char has gotten immexp boosts 5 or so times for a total of 900, over 1400 role experience, hero, a bunch of Commerce experience, and is well onto middle age. Only got one decent cost edge and one cheap edge. And the edges I pick aren't for making me more competitive in PK, but for quality of life mostly so that point isn't completely accurate for everyone. Doing only what you say as a shifter who spins the wheel means only one cheap edge. I'd much prefer the old system over nothing, though I'd prefer a newer system even more that can reward from different angles.

Observation, Explore, & PK edge points can be accrued at the old rate,

but

the amount that can be spent on edge purchases is modified by 10% + 10% per 100 immexp. Immortal experience is gained through observed roleplay between player characters to encourage interaction.

This would give players back some control of their edge destiny, but immortals would have more oversight in douchey behavior.

The rate might be different, but the mechanic itself sounds awesome.

This is roughly equivalent to just boosting the EP value of IMM XP.

The only characters where it would be *different* are ones who have fewer PKs than their imm exp would otherwise allow them to capitalize on. So, newbies.

But you do give me an idea:

Set a goal value for each of the things we want to incentivize, then award EP to characters based on the metric where they've made the *least* progress toward the goal value. Basically incentivize people to be well-rounded.

Set the "goal" values using the median achievement on each metric among "long-lived" (say, 350+ hour) characters. In other words, if you're an "average" long-lived character you should expect to only just reach the goal. If you're below-average then you can expect to "leave some EP on the table", so to speak.

Also determine the max amount of EP we want a character to ever have if they hit every goal on every metric.

Then, for each metric, assign an EP amount to the "start" value. For some metrics (e.g. Role XP) this will be "zero", but for others (e.g. IMM XP) it should be non-zero. This is how many EP are available to you, based on that metric, if you've made no progress whatsoever.

The EP available to a character at any given time is the MINIMUM value indicated by all the different metrics being tracked.

Here's an example. Let's say our metrics are imm xp, role xp, observation xp, exploration xp and solo pks. We set the following base EP value and goal for each one:

Imm xp: 50 EP, 400 xp
Role xp: 0 EP, 2000 xp
Obs xp: 0 EP, 15k XP
Expl xp: 0 EP, 10k XP
Solo PK: 20 EP, 15 PK

Now imagine a character with 0 imm xp, 1500 role xp, 10k observation xp, 8k exploration xp and 10 solo PKs. His progress indicates the following EP totals for each metric:

Imm xp: 50 EP + (0/400 * 50) = 50 EP
Role: 75 EP
Obs: 67 EP
Expl: 80 EP
Solo PK: 20 EP + (10/15 * 80) = 73 EP

This character would have 50 EP available by virtue of his weakest metric (IMM XP). Earning more Role/Obs/Expl/PK wouldn't help immediately, since those aren't his weak point. But they have future value if we assume he's eventually going to get more IMM XP.

We'd probably need to add a "pacifist" option that can be chosen at character creation. It would remove PK from the equation entirely, but reduce the max EP by some amount. Possibly from 100 to 80. Most healers and many heralds would choose this option.

If you wanted, you could also add PK *deaths* as a metric. It wouldn't be possible to "game" more EP by intentionally dying in PK, because you're still held back by whatever your "weakest" metric is. However, it would hamstring characters who are disproportionately careful and literally never die in PK. "Pacifist" option would also remove this metric from the EP calculation.

Stop looking for ways to require IMM effort for char growth. They have that power...you don't have to code limit char growth for them to be able to participate.

And if you make IMMxp more consequential, you will see it given less freely than it already is.

We don't negotiate with terrorists.


Hail PETM!

About 17 years ago, I showed Golmagus where the sleek black rod was in the Onyx Tower. I may not have mentioned it at the time, but the information was in exchange for your reinstating the EPs for OBS/EXP 17 years later.

Thanks! ;)

Back in my day we didn't have edges, and we liked it!

And we had to walk down eastern road with 4 svirfs berserking and spamming pincer, both ways! UPHILL!

And I liked it.

Doesn't mean anything, really :)

And have almost finished Balator revamping, because we don't need Matrik with revamped halfling lands :)

To begin with cabals (they were more balanced and intersting) and to the staff, who were leading cabals. A lot of things were easier, too, RP was not so strict. Then a lot of changes were made, and players got used to them. Players got a wonderful toy - EP and got used to it.

But then, that really, really good improvement got nuked - twice. There is a golden rule in game design: "never f*ng remove something good that will lead players to disappointment, if it's possible!" If not - give a replacement BEFORE you take that candy. And replacement must be BETTER than the candy you are removing.

But someone who did that to CF didn't bother to learn the basic things of game design and player's psychology. That someone (Umiron, I guess, by his own) did exactly what any adequate game designer/producer/imm/whatever won't EVER, EVER do.

So, how should that removal have been processed?
A) Replacement for PK EP should have been implemented;
B) Replacement for explore/observation EP should have been implemented;
C) Old systems should have been replaced.

If you worked on that instead of complaining about how everyone else is doing things wrong. Oh wait, thats right. You scrapped the idea because you were having people do the exact same thing you are doing to the staff right now.

So why exactly should I take you seriously when you offer insight when you have *proven* that you don't really care to help by your own actions?

When I got reply from qhcf community like 'f*ck off with your steam' and Umiron, at the same time, told me to 'f*ck off' here, on officials, calling me names, I have abandoned that project and dismissed the coder (one of those who made JMC client). Currently, my resources are drawn elsewhere and I'm not sure when I'll have enough to do it *right*.

Another thing why I have no inspiration to do it is your reaction to my posts. I have offered a freaking lots of ways how to fix CF, and told you (as I did in 2015) gave estimation how it will affect playerbase/online, and explained why. I have such expertise and experience, and I'm quite sure that my suggestion will fix the situation, at least partially. But all you see are complains.

I repeat: I do not complain about anything. I am not being toxic. I am not being an asshole. I give you f*ng constructive criticism, I'm explaining what you did and how it DID affect the game. You didn't listen me then, you keep ignoring anything except for "negative" aspects of my posts, that, for some reason, hurts your feelings.

I see it as you are keeping to choose self-defense by becoming offended. While there is NOTHING that should really affend you. THAT is not mature behavior, you will not build any constructive dialogue.

Damnit, I quit posting here, that's pointless.

You are just trying to "help" by offering half-constructed ideas that pretty much are universally disliked while hoping someone else does the work for you to bring it to life? What is your track record of success, can you provide some documentation to your expertise and experience?

Its not me being defensive or offended. Its fact that you made a choice to scrap a project because you got sour over people not agreeing with everything you say.

See ya in another 6-8 months when you come back to post some ideas.

And the people who dislike the idea do not play currently, which shows :)

I recognize you are making a joke. And I appreciate it.


It did make me wonder about how much of CF's combined unwillingness to change comes down to a shared sense of effort justification. Not just from Staff, but also from Players who feel their skill was hard earned and therefore place a higher value on it than it is objectively worth.

Most people share everything they know in game to anyone who asks. IMO it is a selfish minority who information hoard.

Personally I can't think of a single bit of information I would keep to myself but then again I am not one to over prep on rare potions.

It's better to have players fed with edges than a worndefully balanced (actually not), but empty MUD.

starting everyone with av 31 healing weapons and a randomized quest skill would bring people back too.. it would also bastardize the game itself.

You guys need to learn that Sacer or the rest of the staff itself don't generally make changes because YOU want them to, they have to take a wider view of the game. The only way I want to see obsv/exp back for edges, is in the manner that Twist proposed where it only counts for quality of life edges.

Will bringing edges back make you unhappy?

Yes.

Because obviously you don't give a damn about newbies (which you have explicitly stated when confessing that you would feed on them if some sort of newbie flag was immplemented).

He doesn't want any changes to a game he doesn't play.

Newbies won't know where to min/max exploration XP anyway. The changes you're begging for help veteran players. Did you ever play CF before corpseguard existed?

It wouldn't ONLY help veteran players and you know that. You say these things because you don't care which way the game goes. You've checked out but for some reason stick around for some conversation and random trollings.


Most of what I know about the game I learned IC. I'm not the only person like this. I try to teach people as much as I can without breaking role. I'm not the only person like this.

You can say this #### but don't expect people to believe you. You know this, yet here you are. gl with that bro

Sure, the trickle-down affect could reach to newbs...but are we now relying on the empathy/sympathy of the CF playerbase? Who has players that literally will "stalk" IMMortals or hack into characters (like what happened to Elystan) or create a proxy to multi-char so they can get an edge with a PK requirement, etc, etc, etc.

Our current playerbase is closer to ####ty than it is good.

I can't believe some nublet actually posted that.

I'm not saying newbies will get as much out of it as veterans, but to say ONLY vets will benefit is incorrect and you all know this. And no, this is not splitting hairs. I taught myself half of the potion/lab quest with one character, and over the next few I eventually learned it all(once someone showed me the ONE thing I was doing wrong). And I'm a newbie for life.

Because you don't give a #### about them.

If you start giving edge points for observation/exploration xp I guarantee it will help vets more than it helps newbies.

I will max out the # of points I can get from those sources. Random newbie almost surely won't.

It's VETS leaving the game, remembers? And by the way being a newbie I LOVED edges. Too bad I stepped on a nasty bug and was only able to get 3 of them, but I was grinding and exploring and #### to get more.

There is already a pretty large delineation between vets and newbs just based on area/item knowledge. To the point that is newbs must either prey on each other or join a vet for a gank to get a kill. Pushing the seasoned players ceiling even further would be less fun than it is now, which isn't much fun when almost everyone pushes my #### in already. Now areas, that is down to experience. Items too, but I think we should add limited items under level 40 to the item list, for those of us that rely on such things. I am more likely to get an edge from role/roleplay immxp than any other source until I learn where and how to cash in on the other types of edge xp. I'm likely to stick around either way, but I doubt others will be like me in that regard.

Gromm was a newbie character who went 42/50 with two edges.

If newbie isn't competitive w/o edges, he won't make it regardless his enemies having edges or not. Middle-ranks is no-edge ground and that's where newbies dwell. And an uncompetitive newbie is toast on hero regardless edges.

That argument is void, really.

Were edges broken before?

Sure, people felt they had to "farm" edge points. But so what? Other players feel the need to spam skills, but we don't code the game to prevent them from doing that. Besides, everyone has to grind through levels, and no one claims that's a bad thing. "Farming" in itself isn't a problem.

And if farming isn't a problem, is it the edges themselves? Maybe. There's probably some OP edges out there. Either make them more expensive, or tweak them down. Problem solved.

The only thing removed obs/exp from edges did was limit the amount of edges every single player in the game could get across the board. Basically it just killed a good chunk of customization.

I still haven't seen a rational argument on how the system is better now than it was prior to the change. Or even an argument that the system prior to the change was a problem in the first place.

They actually did change code to mitigate spam prac. Nice try though.

Did it remove the need to practice skills? No.
Did it make my skills 100% if I use enough practice sessions? No.
Do I still have to spam to master my skills? Yes.
O.o

whatever suits your narrative bro. GL with that.

That's the one thing you take from my post, huh? They tweaked spam practice a dozen or so years ago so everything I've said about edges is invalid.

Kudos to you man.

Clearly you don't give two ####s about having a reasonable conversation on making the game better, so why are you even here?

nt

All you needed to realize that was to look at PK stats and highest PK killer numbers from 2003-2008 and then 2008-2017 (I think edges were 2008, right?).

It was a bunch of different stuff.

In a vacuum, adding edges didn't break anything. Even allowing characters to have 20+ (while stupid) didn't break anything. However, if you take those changes into account with other changes, you effectively created ways characters could become nigh-unkillable.

(a (relatively vague and terrible) example...how do you kill a decked leader char who has everything mastered pimp gear, etc....You gang him down...oh now that doesn't work...well you try to perma-lag him...Oh, he took an edge to not let that ever happen...well I guess just delete or wait for him to delete)

I don't think there is a SINGLE player who wants edges deleted from the game.

What many players like myself and Jhyrbian wish, is for edges to seem like "rewards" and not like "something you have to have". I don't want to feel like my character is ruined because I didn't get enough edge points to take Kama Buki (or whatever), and sadly, that's the culture we've created over the last 4-6 years.

You were bitter about not having balanced percussionist. 'Member?

I had the edge points, didn't have the prereqs :(

NT

NT

Or pretend not to. It's easily mastered. Try to hit people with shields.

And then EGL found me after I unghosted, then the Scarab IMM perma got me :)

For defending edge nuke.

My experience as a mortal with mastering aim & precise aim... I'm on my phone so I'm not going to look up specific names of mobs with shields but...

Teens/twenties
Ysigrath - sek warriors have bone shields
Desert of Araile - the warriors with shields
Thirties
Azuremain -Mages with shields

Late 30s
Kua-toa lair - warriord with shields
Kiadana-Rah - Fire giant guards with shields

Not 100% off the top of my head, but drow patrollers or guards have shields too I think.

That's a starting point for you.

And this is not spending any of those 160 hrs training skills, other than during a ranking session.

With dwarf INT!

And running for my life 90% of the time haha!

Level 1 axe 100%
Level 1 dagger 100%
Level 1 flail 94%
Level 1 mace 100%
Level 1 polearm 100%
Level 1 spear 93%
Level 1 sword 100%
Level 1 staff 92%
Level 1 whip 90%
Level 1 enhanced damage 100%
Level 1 hand to hand 99%
Level 1 parry 100%
Level 1 rescue 94%
Level 1 recall 100%
Level 1 shield block 83%
Level 1 stone armor use 76%
Level 2 improved compare 88%
Level 2 improved consider 91%
Level 2 elbow 1%
Level 2 metal armor use 100%
Level 2 light armor use 100%
Level 2 beseech 81%
Level 3 dirt kicking 93%
Level 4 aim 100%
Level 4 knee 1%
Level 5 second attack 100%
Level 6 fast healing 100%
Level 7 recuperate 89%
Level 8 kick 1%
Level 10 disarm 92%
Level 10 feint 1%
Level 10 pen 1%
Level 11 inspect goods 42%
Level 12 third attack 100%
Level 12 dual wield 100%
Level 13 dodge 100%
Level 14 haggle 86%
Level 14 pierce 1%
Level 15 bash 100%
Level 15 trip 100%
Level 15 shield cleave 1%
Level 15 pugil 1%
Level 15 meditation 100%
Level 16 charge 91%
Level 17 lore 1%
Level 17 thrust 1%
Level 18 berserk 100%
Level 18 lash 1%
Level 19 slice 100%
Level 20 attune 1%
Level 20 eyes of flame 100%
Level 20 warcry 100%
Level 20 distance 100%
Level 20 backhand 91%
Level 21 retreat 100%
Level 22 zeal 100%
Level 23 offhand disarm 86%
Level 23 entrap 90%
Level 23 deflect shield 1%
Level 24 evade 86%
Level 25 chop 93%
Level 25 legsweep 75%
Level 25 drive 75%
Level 26 cranial 100%
Level 26 bone armor use 1%
Level 27 parting blow 87%
Level 28 boneshatter 100%
Level 30 careful vision 58%
Level 30 fourth attack 100%
Level 30 dent 79%
Level 30 charge set 90%
Level 30 dash 94%
Level 32 cutoff 86%
Level 33 drum 100%
Level 35 precise aim 89%
Level 46 enhanced reactions 100%

If they search for it...

I perfect all aim skills on the Eastern Road.

Level doesn't matter.

And still can't hit it when the night comes.

JK

And about avg 31 weapon - don't be a hypocrite. Everyone knows who are grinding Hell after each reboot, collecting much more powerful items. For some reason, it doesn't bring people back but draws even more of them away. It have nothing to do with explorations and EPs.