Playing a ganky bard, I have stumbled upon a following situation. When I gank someone 2 on 1, my combat skills work fine, but when I try to sing songs, some sort of anti-gank code comes into play, and the opponents start evading my songs "in the chaos of combat". This comes into effect even if I am not assisting and sing offensive songs out of combat.

Is this by design? And if so, what are the prerequisites for this 2 on 1 anti-gank code to work because playing a support class and being subject to 2 on 1 anti-gank code occasionally is weird.

testest

It's working again for me, thanks.

Ah, then ignore the e-mail I just sent.

Just took several late bard PBFs, of which Sanshia, Kregan and Bethanny had significantly high GoM which was above 2.

Any idea if those characters have faced the problem I am currently facing?

>Just took several late bard PBFs, of which Sanshia, Kregan
>and Bethanny had significantly high GoM which was above 2.
>
>Any idea if those characters have faced the problem I am
>currently facing?

No idea.

But again, you need to be REALLY ganky (not just in # of gangs vs. non-gangs but the size of your gangs) for the penalty to be significant in a 2 vs 1.

Also remember that if your average group size per kill is say, 10 (yikes!) you don't need to get solo kills to bring it down and thus reduce the anti-ganging penalty in a 2 vs 1, you just need to bring that average down, which you can do by merely ganging people with smaller groups.

Fight anti-ganging with ganging! Or something.

I've browsed through my logs, and it's really song-specific. Skills work just fine, so it seems like a bard-specific mechanic.

3+ GoM is definitely not the case here. The log Sam posted (w/ Kaersylia) shows the exact same mechanic I'm facing. So it must have been in place for quite some time now.

I have the following ideas so far:

1) You just have it kick in if your target is being hit by someone other than the bard (probably only PC counts).

2) GoM of the bard might be a factor, so if your GoM is above 2, #1 kicks in.

3) Some other factors I'm not aware of?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What I'm seeing looks right if you are a shamelessly gangy beyond compare.

I don't know your character's numbers, though.

It seems like things are working as intended because what I see is logs of you, someone who says they exclusively gang, engaging a person 2 vs 1 and having your songs fail because of the anti-ganging code. You can argue that's stupid / unfair / whatever, and you might be right. All I'm saying is that it looks to me like the code is working the way the person who wrote it intended it to based on the information I've seen.

It seems that assists factor in GoM for this purpose. And if assists are included, then my GoM should be soaring high in stratosphere so this is exactly as you say.

Now I need to figure out what to do about it, preferrably with some hard-ass ganking involved.

You don't have to land a kill to impact your GOM.
Walk by two people fighting each other, sing elegy.
If one dies, you'll get a 2 v 1 (0% by your name)in your gank, as will they.
Look at Hamza, zero KBs but a 2.5 gank.

1 and 2 it felt like to me. Ehren could be in play but I think that would be rare. (unless people get inherent gang protection for being victimized by gangs often or some such, on this I have no idea)

I'll go on a limb and say I've logged more hours as a bard than most players.

Imms that can see the code would know how it works exactly, but having a GOM above 2 and ganging a target will cause distractions.
The higher your GOM, or the more people you are ganging with, the more prevalent the anti ganging protections will be for the target.
So if you're a 2.5 GOM going 3 on 1 (even if it's a 3 v 3 group fight, but all of you are swinging at the one) you're going to see a lot of distractions.

It also feels like even if you all aren't swinging at the guy, say two of yours were but you were not, your song will still base the distraction as if 3 of you are swinging at the guy in seeing if it hits (but this may not be true).

Umi saying going for low gangs will help is true, a 2 v 1 will lower your GOM if it was 3, but since anything above 2 seems to trigger the protections, solo kills are the only meaningful way to truly mitigate a GOM.

GOM has always been a crap metric for bards due to all songs being AOE and lullaby with people waking allies.

Shouldn't stop you killing. They don't avoid all your songs. And they are still getting ganked.

Get the edge and roundhouse if you want to gank.

If it is rare this sounds like ehren soul. If common sounds buggy.

Is the person fighting mobs when 2pcs are ganking him?

>Shouldn't stop you killing. They don't avoid all your songs.
> And they are still getting ganked.

Well it's just that 50% of my songs miss entirely. It doesn't stop me killing, but it's amazingly weird of as designed.


>Get the edge and roundhouse if you want to gank.

If I roll a warrior and go ganking with say invoker (realy story), will you say the same? "Get the edge and elbow?"


>If it is rare this sounds like ehren soul. If common sounds
>buggy.

It's common. I'm gonna post a bunch of logs later.


>Is the person fighting mobs when 2pcs are ganking him?

No.

No, I wouldn't tell a warrior to get the edge and elbow.

Edges roundhouse is probably a bard's best ganking tool, because it is pretty reliable lag and nice damage.

Elbow is not a ganking tool.

Its probably due to the high dmg potential of bard songs and their ability to lag, especially in the situation you stated where you attempt to do it with out being in active combat at the time of the song.

That doesn't really answer the question, does it? :)

I wondered however if my situation was by design or buggy? Having a high GoM with extremely low PKWs resulting in significant reduce in character's ability.

Gank code kicking in on a 2v1 situation doesn't pass the laugh test in CF even with Ehren Soul, so were I to guess/hope, I would say it's a bug.

Maybe the code thinks there are more combatants than there actually are due to:

1) a recent flee from someone else the victim was fighting
2) some persistent malediction like insects/immoliation from a third party
3) group members being counted as attackers who are not in combat or not even present for some reason
4) The bard song being counted as another attacker (i.e. fiend)

Unless someone definitively states "As designed", it's impossible to tell without looking at lots of related code.

As a software engineer, I would love to help, but the fact that I like to occasionally post on Dio's prohibits me from contributing in this capacity.

It could be Ehren Soul.

If it's not, it's probably because your ratio of gangs to solo kills is at chronic candy-ass levels, to the point where the code is throwing your opponent a bone.

There shouldn't be much difference between songs and skills like trip with regard to anti-ganging code, so I think that part is in your head.

If it just ain't fun without a buddy (or four), I recommend running your train on a Lich or Mummy, as the dead don't merit protection.

If you die to a lone bard (maybe not an outlander with insects) you pretty much screwed up. Given use of lullaby and allies waking make it seem like you ganged the person, running anything under a 2 gank ratio as a bard is pretty rare.

The whole fun of being a bard is group fights which is not conducive to a decent gank ratio.

Never realized liches and mummies don't get that protection though.

Empire bard is much better at solo killing than Village/Nexus bard, which I believe (though I may be wrong) is your specialty.

Hanord was my first bard to level past like 30, and once I got the groove down, I was able to take out multiple opponents, solo.

Of course, being Empire, I did plenty of ganking too (and got ganked plenty).

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=32201&mesg_id=32221&page=



"Super Ganky" but still, 86 solo pkwins.

Easiest way, I found, to get pkwins (solo or otherwise) was to be fighting against the odds. Also ragers are just such bardmeat, in general.

I think it'd be a lot tougher to do nowadays with edges being different, but still, definitely possible.

2010-08-31 22:43:35 - Hanord.

Bards were trashed and fixed countless times after that. Right now bards on hero - are useless solo and with such fixes they are useless in 2 vs 1. If you noticed - Venara deleted shortly once she hit the hero range - because she started to suck in solo pk department (no, I don't want to bash venara here).

NT

Doesn't change the fact that she wasn't competitive on hero. Even with tons of OP equipment.

>2010-08-31 22:43:35 - Hanord.
>
>Bards were trashed and fixed countless times after that. Right
>now bards on hero - are useless solo and with such fixes they
>are useless in 2 vs 1. If you noticed - Venara deleted shortly
>once she hit the hero range - because she started to suck in
>solo pk department (no, I don't want to bash venara here).

As mentioned below, Venara didn't delete, she immed.

And prior to doing so, she killed my mortal several times, using all sorts of interesting tactics (brandishing exotic hard-to-find talismans, etc.).

So while I agree that in general bards are powered-down now as compared to when I was playing Hanord, I think your example is a bad one. I also don't think they are currently useless solo, and especially not with an ally.

Also, you know....I don't want to hurt your feelings..

>she killed my mortal several times

This is what I call the bad example :) You just suicided on some guys (I mean, really, nazarates and others). You weren't the prepwhore with Alizabaz (and you are always the prepwhore). So my point - I fought her and I know what I'm talking about.

One day somebody will buy her PBF and we'll see how many pk solo kills she did on hero and on whom and we'll compare it with her middle levels.

And you know, when you brandish in pk in a first round and in the second round, that means your bards songs sucks, your bard skills sucks - so you use something that not sucks - brandishing and still.. :) No, it doesn't mean that brandishing works well in that situation - it means exactly what I said, your songs sucks. The distort? Does anyone use it nowdays? Fiend? What? Fire giants don't die from the fiend?

I'll not continue to argue, I got your point, you got mine. See you in a fields.

But it was more despite being a bard, rather than thanks to being a bard. ST gear helps, and those ST talismans are quite valid to brandish instead of singing.

I deployed all sorts.

Not all songs can hit a vuln and some talismans do a better job if the objective is to land big damage.

Also, I have talismans edged so in some regards talismans can be waaay more nasty than songs depending on the fight. Notice the 'depending on the fight' part of that sentence. No single recipe is the same for each PvP event. Sleeping folks, singing them up, launching a fiend works on some. Other times, brandishing lightning to hit a vuln is all you need. Mana pool is important.

Brandish is a bard skill that doesn't suck and can be hugely powerful.

I don't think you fully understand the class.

(FYI brandish costs zero mana and lots of bard songs are mana intensive meaning it's very easy to drain the mana pool in under 10 songs)

Your pbf shows that fact just perfect. There is no point to start the flame war, I got your point as well, in my farewells, I'll explain your mistakes. See you in a fields.

So whatever example you're trying to use me for, you've already done goofed.


Because I feel certain you have zero idea the strengths and weaknesses of specifically a "Scarab Hero Bard" vs. any other hero bard. I'm confident in saying this because I doubt you can name more than two scarab bards, let alone a scarab leader bard. Emperor Bard, Outlander Bard, and even Fortress Bard are all completely different depending on position in the cabal.



This is what we call a 'Moot Point'

>And prior to doing so, she killed my mortal several times,
>using all sorts of interesting tactics (brandishing exotic
>hard-to-find talismans, etc.).
>

Just to make it clear - does it mean the bards are now completely designed to go into PK only using "interesting tactics" with hard-to-find talismans and etc? What about those who aren't familiar to your MUD well (i.e. newbies)? For example I have no any idea which talismans are you talking about and where they are located. Moreover I'm almost sure this knowledge wouldn't be achieved in nearest future so I just want to use basic characters abilities to explore and PK - are bards useless for my kind of players? Would you share the list of professions which are useless in 2v1 as well please to not pick these if I decide to join any cabal where group fights are pretty usual thing? Thanks in advance.

You just won't get kills, but you can still buff and heal your allies, amongst other things.

Sorry but again, to make it clear, bards are completely designed as pure support profession in PK (except of 1v1)? I have to have clear understanding of it to make a proper choice. And I'd like to read it from help files as well as this is very important limitation instead of realizing I'm useless after reaching 51 lvl. Nobody wants to invest time in useless character this is obvious I guess?

Maybe they rarely get a killing blow in a 2 vs 1, but that does not make them useless in a group, nor useless solo. Hell, everyone wants to group with a bard.

If you're gonna look at the game like it is Quake where frags are all that matters, you're gonna be disappointed no matter what.

>Maybe they rarely get a killing blow in a 2 vs 1, but that
>does not make them useless in a group, nor useless solo. Hell,
>everyone wants to group with a bard.
>
>If you're gonna look at the game like it is Quake where frags
>are all that matters, you're gonna be disappointed no matter
>what.

And again - if I use any skill/spell/song I mastered before I have to understand why it doesn't work and look on my future behavior through the prism of reasonable(!) borders. I don't care about those who wants to group with bard - that's not a reason at all, I do care about clear understanding of exact profession we're discussing here. If healer is support profession and everybody wants to group with healer - this looks okay to me and I can understand it, this is reasonable. When you pick bard profession and suddenly realize you can do nothing in group PK because of completely unknown reason (what these distractions supposed to tell me?) - this looks weird, this makes me curious. Hell, this is complete gap and weakpoint you have to be aware of. I got your point already. Now I would greatly appreciate if I receive adequate feedback and proper description of these distractions in help files from competent people as this is gamechanging thing.

Gee thanks

The best thing a bard can do against a warrior or any damage dealing lagger is - avoid.

With removal of lizard tail scrolls and alleged nerfing of fiend, I don't see bards as considerable opponents. And if they sleep you, you just gtfo after being awakened.

I don't think I've ever died to a solo bard after newbie deaths to Talisin (who played before ship preps were removed).

Bard shouldn't be dying to bash anyway. They can have huge dam redux with decent tanking and decent melee output.

I'm guessing most bards are trying to sleep you from the outset. Doing it mid fight would probably get them better results, and feign weakness is great for encouraging that.

Bard dies to bash and unknown weapons just fine. Human and no swashbuckler makes it much worse though.

And in case you tell us about wraithform preps - they are maxed :)

No. Just dexy tankiness and evade.

I don't buy this. Not that it matters though.

I didn't start this thread to discuss how you can survive with a bard. There's a mechanic in place I don't understand and I think it needs to be clarified.

Advices like "Go and solo kill someone" don't help. However an explanation of this limitation would certainly be of use.

When you die to solo bash:

Is the weight of your gear a fraction of your max carrying capacity? It should be.

And you have resist on tap, plus aura and shield in staff form (multiuse). You can even get a haste staff. Or scroll. Or potion. In general you shouldn't be dying to bash. Sure, if you don't see the guy coming you might. But you should still have resist up and tank like a champ.

If you are lugging too much weight around then you may not survive bash.

gr

Didn't even need any preps. Now orcs are a different story, they eat faces.

Being able to see the forum handle.

I'm not saying it's impossible to land solo kills, but being forced to land solo kills to make a character viable in group fights?

If GoM is a factor, then it would be a better strategy to grief low levels while also getting prerequisites for Daunting Presense, both creating buffer for GoM increase in the future and getting that edge that makes you a better sport for solo PKs on hero.

P.S. I don't have much trouble killing people solo and racking badass amounts of solo PKs (which you can easily check, knowing the player), but this current bard was rolled specifically for the purpose of group battles and ganking, and I was quite surprised to see the limitations in place. So I wondered if this is by design and hoped to know the factors in place if it is in order to be able to do something about it.

I think the point is Hanord, in a group fight, would be having his songs fail due to distraction fairly often due to the GOM. Hanord was 2-5 when he heroed, and made WM 58 hours later. Warmaster or emperor powers would make solo killing so much easier as a bard. I don't think you could compare empire to any other bard, (except outlander leader which would be the best in my opinion)

The problem is not getting solo kills, it's how easy it is to ruin a decent GOM as a bard given their nature. A lot of solo fights end in no deaths, and a lot of fights where people die are in group situations which ruins a GOM. I'd say more than a few of the 2 v 1 ones a bard has is when he uses lullaby against a group solo. I've beaten a group of three and gotten hit with three v one in the GOM.

If the bard wants to do group fights effectively, he has to spend a lot of his time not fighting in group fights. Otherwise, in fights he ends up better off spamming healing.

It's ####ty code dude.

I posted the log on Dio's. Was a 2 v 2. Both enemies aiming at me. My song gets "gank-coded" on one of the enemies.

Kinda stupid.

That code doesn't take into account whether you are being ganged, only whether the guy being hit is.

If you and your pals are ganging some dude and he and his pals (or some other group entirely) are ganging you, then all the victims get some anti-ganging love. It's not a "group size vs. group size" thing.

Since if I remember correctly Bemused landed a couple spells on me and Deathkitty for sure did :)

Here's the log: http://www.qhcf.net/phorum/read.php?3,1047743,1047743#msg-1047743

Because I'm like 2 PKWs and tons of PK assists. My gankmeter is definitely above 2. Considering a bard is not about solo kills, you just get your character screwed this easy.

Shoud noone roll bards now?

>Shoud noone roll bards now?

Now? I don't think anything has changed in years, unless they stopped working on the Code Changes forum since I sodded off.

Also remember I'm just guessing about you, specifically. That's how the code reads, but I have no clue who your character is, who you were fighting, what your GoM is, etc. Standard grain of salt type disclaimer applies.

I think I'm 2 or 3 PKWs, likely 2,5+ GoM. I have no solo kills.

If the check is GoM only, then I'm screwed big time. Because I'm not like unable to solo kills because I don't want to or something.

Nevermind the design of classes that don't support being Rambo. Get out there and solo kill or die trying.

/sarcasm

People that are fighting multiple opponents are less likely to be hit by songs. Your songs, if they are fighting someone else will have this happen occasionally.

It always felt to me like the higher your gank score, the more negatively impacted your ability to hit people with songs in gangs.

It has always worked this way in all my time playing bards. The more you gang, the less able you are to do it effectively.

It does make sense that a person fighting hand to hand against someone may not always be attentive to a bard singing in the background.

Because if it's not - you get your character crippled by participating in a massive group PK just once? Seems weird.

Than your character getting worse. I could, of course, be wrong.

But I can't really believe there are more than 10 people, some of whom are ganking extensively, have ehren edges, simultaneously.

Once your gank goes a little over 2, I've found it to be pretty noticeable that songs will fail to be noticed. But if you're in a 2 v. 1 I'd go trip or roundhouse a lot of the time.

This could all be anecdotal, but I sincerely doubt anyone takes Ehren anymore.

Bards are great in support and group fights, just make sure the person tanking you isn't tanking anyone else and your songs should work pretty well, at least on that person. For some reason if they aren't swinging at you, it feels like songs fail more often.

Again, probably just selective memory than actual code at work.