Would some imm care to comment on why dwarven bards are not allowed? I can SO see drunken dwarven drummers singing rousing tunes to the troops, it seems like a fun role to play. Purely from a game mechanics point of view they'd appear pretty balanced without any special issues, sure they'd be the heartiest of all bards, but with their gruff voices poorer singers than the rest (least natural mana not to mention their only average charisma). Naturally they wouldn't be able to learn to sneak, either.

Also, another pool for fun roles would be halflings as a PC race. Neutral/good, stats something like 17str 19wis 19int 22dex 22con, natural quiet_movement, vuln_blunt, resistant to stuff (magic/disease?). Quite a few classes seem appropriate, which is always good for variety: thief, warrior, ranger, bard, healer and druid. I realize mechanics-wise they'd be quite similar to certain existing races, but that's irrelevant with regard to the new role opportunities they'd offer (which should be welcome on a mud emphasizing RP, right?).

Would some imm care to comment on why dwarven bards are not allowed? I can SO see drunken dwarven drummers singing rousing tunes to the troops, it seems like a fun role to play. Purely from a game mechanics point of view they'd appear pretty balanced without any special issues, sure they'd be the heartiest of all bards, but with their gruff voices poorer singers than the rest (least natural mana not to mention their only average charisma). Naturally they wouldn't be able to learn to sneak, either.

Not only are dwarves not exactly singers and artisans, but bards are finesse oriented. Combine the low racial dex with low racial charisma, and I don't see why they'd be any good at it.

In general, I'm not a fan of "Let every race be every class they'd be remotely half-good at." I think it dilutes the culture of a race.

I realize mechanics-wise they'd be quite similar to certain existing races, but that's irrelevant with regard to the new role opportunities they'd offer

Halflings have come up before, and they always sound exactly like dextrous gnomes to me. What role opportunities exist there that gnomes don't cover?

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

Not only are dwarves not exactly singers and artisans, but bards are finesse oriented. Combine the low racial dex with low racial charisma, and I don't see why they'd be any good at it.

I see your point, but I don't think they'd make that poor bards, they'd just be different. Certainly to an elf one might appear very rough and maybe even barbaric, while among their own kind they'd be very appreciated entertainers and masters of lore.

In general, I'm not a fan of "Let every race be every class they'd be remotely half-good at." I think it dilutes the culture of a race.

IMO there's a pretty good argument for dwarven culture producing bards. Also, I see variety as a good thing, currently dwarves have only four (IIRC) class choices.

Halflings have come up before, and they always sound exactly like dextrous gnomes to me. What role opportunities exist there that gnomes don't cover?.

Sure there's some overlap and lots of, um little guy roles that gnomes are perfectly adequate for. But for one thing gnomes are neutral by default, whereas halflings could be good. Also I see their cultures to be quite a bit different from each other, gnomes are generally the wise and studious type, while halflings are happy-go-lucky simple folk, so even mechanics-wise they wouldn't be just "dextrous gnomes". Additionally in the grand scheme of things a new race tending towards good would balance the available racial alignments.

Anyway, thanks for the reply, it's good to hear how you guys see things.

There's a reason why a bards songs can make you imagine you have a phantasmal killer after you and it's not because you can bang a drum and sing about beer.

Heh, that's an exaggerated example. Sure, dwarves can be defined as not having good enough command of their voice to affect their audience to that extent (which appears to be how they're viewed), but all I'm saying you could equally well say that they DO have that capability. Their max charisma even translates to "charismatic", which suggests an above average presence/influence. I've never imagined dwarves as non-singers, quite the contrary, while not reaching the wide vocal range of humans/elves, they still sing with strong, deep baritone or bass voices. In game terms this difference would translate to slightly less effective songs.

>There's a reason why a bards songs can make you imagine you
>have a phantasmal killer after you and it's not because you
>can bang a drum and sing about beer.

What respectable dwarf would drink beer? Beer is like water compared to properly dwarf brewed ale. Besides, gold is a much more popular topic for dwarven songs. Most dwarves are miners more than drinkers.

Halflings are not going to have the same vuln, and from a
physical standpoint they tend to be more like dwarves. They are stout, tough to poison, and not terribly adept in the water.

They are not as smart as gnomes, though they would be as or nearly as deft. Think closer to that of a really sharp human warrior. They would have no natural affinity for magic, no spellcasting. They would have a firm bonus to their charm saves.

and they could not wear shoes... and maybe vuln fire cause they got all that extra hair...

maybe be some of the priest classes, bard, thief, warrior, ranger...
and they act differently.

And hey, you even got the hometown already!

I love hobbits
Dwim

Bring the dwarves on baby! And rename cold be sleep to row row row.
"Row row row your boat gently down the stream,
Merrily merrily merrily merrily life is but a dream."
I'd sure fall asleep to that. And hey, what about giving bards the ability to sing #### in unison. Imagine three bards all singing resist, or fiend together. It's not overpowered, it's the wrath of god man! The nightmare fiends are upon us! You're goddamn right they are, run bitch!

Singing Fiend together (hehehe) that sounds like a lot of fun...that is IF you are one of the bards or in their group. If you are an innocent bystander that can be affected...RUN LIKE HELL AND DON'T LOOK BACK!!!!!

Just the thought of this brings a smile to my day. hahahah! :)

Uh... maybe I'm missing your point... but...

I think of a drunk dwarf singing "when you don't see me", and it's kinda like imagining a car alarm.

I'd like to see dwarven bards. Up their charisma to 20 in fact, since their str is still ####ed up.

You won't get my vote for halflings tho, can't stand the little ####ers.

Other race/class combos I'd like to see -

Felar druids. Svirf druids. Drow rangers. Storm giant rangers. Arial rangers. Minotaur rangers. Felar bards. Gnome bards.

I've been wanting to see Drow Ranger forever! Storm giant rangers would be the most overpowered piece of... Minotau rangers I dont see.. AP maybe.