What are the prereqs for this edge?

Also as some have mentioned it is a relatively expensive edge (though it should be attainable by most chars that hero and such, IMO).

Thanks for this! I think I have 2 of the three of those so I will keep my eyes open. I have not ever had this edge so I think I might take it.


Do you think it is doable to get Swashbuckler and Erode Confidence or is that just to many edge points for any non-outstanding character? I mean I am shooting for Outstanding, but lets just say I am a slow start with it this time around.

To take JUST that one edge, maybe.

What is your opinion on the overall outlook for the number of edges a character should have?

I would think 100 hour hero should have 2 or 3 decently expensive edges and that number should scale with age and accomplishment, correct?

So a 300 hour hero who is decently average should have 4 or 5 decently expensive edges or two handfuls of cheaper ones right?

Does that seem acceptable or is that pushing over rewarding?

"Decently expensive" varies a bit, but right now the average number of EP on heros is enough to get 2 or 3.

Some of the "high profile" characters who were created after the EP changes are also at or past the 4-5 mark you mentioned.

So in the old system a high profile character who was long lived had roughly 20, to include quite a few expensive edges. This is a bit excessive, on that we can agree. Would half that be excessive?

I honestly don't think so. 10 edges for a "high profile" long lived character seems pretty reasonable right?

Would that put the 4-5 decent edges for your standard average character on target?

Keep in mind the amount of code changes to make skills/spells/sups not be as effective without the slew edges designed for each.

Mostly because every class has a different design to their edges and a powerscale that is very different based on # of edges they have.

A shifter with 5 edges is generally the same as a shifter with 0 edges.

A warrior with 5 edges is stronger than a warrior with 0 edges, but much weaker than a warrior with 10 edges because of the design to warrior edges. (A lot of the edges require other edges or they are used to juice both weapon specs)

An assassin with 5 edges is VASTLY more powerful than an assassin with 0 edges, and really not that far behind an assassin with 10 edges because of the design to assassin edges. (There are a lot of mutually exclusive edges)

An invoker with 5 edges is a little better than a 0 edge invoker but not to the point that it really changes things. At the 10 edge mark it might make a more notable impact, but even then its still not going to turn them into death on wheels.

Necro with 5 edges is pretty buff compared to 0 edges, and at 10 edges they are even more powerful with the way they build on one another.


And again, the actual cost of edges varies greatly from one to the next so even if player A and player B had the exact same number of EP to select with then they might end up with a difference of 1-3 edges even if they were both choosing from "decently expensive" edges.

So a few edges need their costs increased to reflect their impact

One specific edge (maybe more) needs it's effectiveness toned done

And certain edges for certain classes that have no noticeable impact need their costs dropped as they aren't that effective

Considering we have years of data to pull from it shouldn't be that hard to sort it out.

I'd offer to put in the necessary time and effort if there was at least some promise of action.

You know how and where to apply to staff if you actually mean that.

So... that's kind of like telling someone. You want to be a doctor? Go to medical school! It requires a lot of time and work.

Nobody wants to wait a few years for NbM to imm and reform edges 😉

I personally feel like we are maybe a bit short on edges but that is probably because I am used to getting 10+ edges on a character. I agree with him that the less effective edges should be less expensive in the current environment.

My current has a lot of unspent EPs and I still can't take the most expensive edge. That's telling to me.

I wouldn't trust a doctor who didn't go to medical school.... Just saying.

If someone else wants to champion giving NbM the level of access required to do any sort of code work then go nuts. But I don't see that happening either for a lot of reasons. The main to me is that it would essentially be a slap in the face to the people who have been on staff and investing the time and work to make changes.

Yeah sorry. I worded that poorly. I was super hungover this AM and trying to get ready to go pheasant hunting in -15 weather. Probably would have been better saying oh you want to make someone feel better? Go to med school... get your point about quacks though.

I guess my point is that it just takes so long to imm. Not saying the staff would have me but I've never even wanted to apply because of the lengthy initiation period. It makes it hard to join to address a problem of today knowing you can't do anything about it for over a year.

One way to look at it is that that first year or so is how you prove yourself and earn some equity and ultimately a voice on staff. If it were as simple as applying and then overnight (or trivially soon) having the access and authority to "address a problem" (as you see it), then remember that it would be equally painless for everyone else to affect the direction of the game too, sometimes opposite to the way you think is best.

Part of how the staff as traditionally handled that is by empowering the people who demonstrate a commitment to the game beyond showing up and saying some aspect of the game sucks and insisting they be given the power to change it.

And if I'm being honest with myself, imming to change one part of the game you think sucks probably isn't a great reason to imm in the first place. One should imm out of a desire to make the game better overall, and in many areas.

And here is where I see a historical issue that we have always had. I am only opening a discussion and OFFERING to put in the effort to collect as much big data as possible to further the discussion. I am offering to do this as long as you guys are open to the idea of JUST LISTENING!

Traditionally the playerbase has been completely closed off from having input (sans santa zulg). Where this is negative is that despite how decent someones idea is (not me, but a lot of players have offered really really good input in the past), it is largely ignored except during the santa zulg window.

I'm not trying to grab power or control, I am just offering to put in effort free of charge as long as it isn't systematically ignored. No one on staff has to implement anything or even agree with it, I'm just requesting to NOT BE IGNORED before putting in the effort.

All proposals and ideas from the low level are straight up ignored. Because the amount of ####ty and useless ideas is 99,99999% of all the ideas.

In order to be implemented, the idea should pass a certain filter, and that filter is - someone with authority and/or power should start lobbying it so that others pay attention. So if you want things implemented, you should first persuade someone with authority and/or power. If you can do that - chances are your idea is sane.

That mechanism is not ideal. Some brilliant ideas die ultimately (screw them we don't need losers anyway). But authorities can't serve as initial filter because that would paralyze their other work.

The problem with that is you would remove a great player from the who list. I think part of cf's numbers issue started when a number of key players stopped playing to imm.

Plenty of people who become IMMs still play the game. I think a bigger problem is that when people become IMMs they are forced into situations that lead to them not wanting to play the game anymore for various reasons. I imagine its partially due to fact that being an IMM ends up making a fun hobby feel more like work. And I would daresay its also partially because you end up taking a lot of unnecessary attacks and such from the players that can rob the fun out of it as well.

In general, people leave their jobs because they don’t like their boss, don’t see opportunities for promotion or growth, or are offered a better gig (and often higher pay); these reasons have held steady for years.

Directly lifted from here: https://hbr.org/2016/09/why-people-quit-their-jobs but research supports these.

Why Volunteer's quit is a lot harder to find good research on, and I'm not particularly qualified to sort good research from bad (the job thing is basically universal at this point). I actually wish Valg was around to sort out good data on this stuff.

The lack of positive feedback I've seen in a couple of places, nowhere is that attributed to the subjects (in this case players) of the volunteer service, but instead to the volunteer organization (in this case Imm Staff).

Being able to have an impact as a volunteer is also something I saw in multiple places. Because, honestly, who wants to volunteer for a year before you can actually do anything you'd consider a positive contribution? The Imm process seems designed to make it so you have to spend a year before you can contribute meaningfully, and even then perhaps your voice will be ignored or marginalized.

I, for one, would very much like to contribute to CF. I have skills and abilities that CF's staff is sorely lacking. But since I didn't Imm 10-15 years ago when the bar was much lower I have a mountain of work in front of me that I'm not interested in doing (and probably not overly skilled in) before I could move to the piece that is interesting and that I am skilled. It's hard not to quit that volunteer effort before it even starts.

Perhaps, instead of blaming the players for why Imms quit, or aren't happy doing the thing they volunteered for, you should call up Valg, have him do some research, find the things that actually cause volunteers to quit, and address them internally. Maybe, just maybe, the Imm-ing process is not designed for success. Perhaps you've put too much into vetting candidates with certain criteria and not in attracting ones with skills you need. Then again, perhaps your current process is good, and everything is going well and the current lack of coding ability/interest amongst staff is simply a matter of bad luck/timing. I obviously don't believe that, but I'm open to the possibility of being wrong. Blaming the playerbase has been popular for 20 years, but isn't overly effective at getting the playerbase to change their behavior though, so maybe a different tactic is required.

I've probably ruined my chances of Imming anytime soon, but then I'm barely logging in anyway since I've gotten zero response to my application over weeks, and if a volunteer organization can't be bother to process my application, obviously they aren't really looking for volunteers.

You either have it (and in this case you don't really consider those "obstacles" hard, or you could do it "just for fun", and when you realize that it's not that easy, you just say "nah" and don't attempt.

Thing with middle-agers (and most of us are) as opposed to teenagers (as most of us were), is that most of us were willing to pile up hours and months of work to become imms in the past (at least I did so in the other MUD), but most of us find it nearly impossible to do so now because RL (no free time sorry, I'm gonna go get my kids from school) and higher self-esteem (because we're being paid tons of money and are otherwise accomplished people right?).

So even if the bar itself didn't become lower or higher, we ourselves (by becoming older) have less and less ability to jump over it.

>I've probably ruined my chances of Imming anytime soon, but
>then I'm barely logging in anyway since I've gotten zero
>response to my application over weeks, and if a volunteer
>organization can't be bother to process my application,
>obviously they aren't really looking for volunteers.

Until this comment, I would have said I'm relatively certain we've responded to every application to Immort. If we've missed something, feel free to send a new note or e-mail and we can hunt it down.

Have you ever actually gone through the process? I have and its certainly possible to contribute from the moment you start the process if you are willing.

The entire process has been undergoing a steady revamp over the last few years because we have determined that the older methods are not productive for the current landscape. We are constantly evolving in attempts to improve it and make it less tedious for the people involved. Some of the biggest changes have been modifying the work load that we give to heroimms to move them further along, and another has been that we are setting people up to have religions/"real" imms quicker than before.

In my 4ish year run on staff, there has been exactly 2 people who had their apps turned down. There have been a handful of people who did not get through the process because of various reasons, one of the biggest being a failure to deliver on the work they agreed to do.

Re: your heroimm app. You won't get a response to your app if you aren't logged on. If youre the character I think you are (and you basically have to be since there is only 1 app floating around) I have literally seen you online 0 times since you applied. I cannot speak for anyone else, but if you can't even be bothered to log onto your character then I don't forsee you having much luck in the process because something that carries some weight is presence.

I don't mean give all players more edge points, I mean more edges as in new edges to balance it out. So basically warriors and assassins gain a LOT of power with just 5 edges, but other classes not so much. Let's make some new edges so that any <class> is equally(best possible of course) more powerful once they have 5 edges.

MORE EDGES! I'm only partially kidding, I really think the whole edge system could use some tune-ups. Like the master edges for assassins, there needs to be something like that for every class, or something of equal power increase.

I know it's very unlikely anyone has the time for something like that, I'm just spitballing.

Maybe evade... It's also pretty expensive and you need to be somewhat high level.

Do you think it is so expensive that it could be a "one and done" type edge, where If I get it I may never get another edge because the cost is so high?

Or an edge that I may only get much later in life if I save all my edge points? (old age or longer I mean)

What does "discuss guildmaster prereq swashbuckler" say?

Dv

It is very expensive? I thought that was the case. I seem to remember hearing about this edge several years ago, but nothing else from that point till now.

No idea right now. At work and just looking over some choices and options. I can discuss it with the guildmaster when I log in next. I was just wondering was all.

Frightful fiend is by far the most expensive, but swashbuckler is certainly high up in terms of EP cost.

So really only worth taking as a human. Maybe a halfie, but I'd probably forego it for a 2 dex bump in favor of 2 other more moderate edges.

It's not a permanent 23 dex replacement either, dex maledicts could still hurt you even if charisma is maxed. Daev stated a while back it adds to dex capped by charisma, but if you have 3 dex, you won't keep dodging and evading as if you still had 23. You will be better off for having it in all cases though.

So don't negate dex stat coverage if you take the edge.