Hi all,

I was reading up on what is going on. I saw transmute to metal was removed. I was thinking of playing an Outlander warrior, but the kick in the junk is that demon pendants are adamantite. It was a pain in the as previously to get them transmuted, now it is impossible. For the sake of fun and happiness and that everyone in the mud has been using these for more than 2 decades to maintain no remove weapons, can the material be changed to wood or some other material except adamantite?

I mean just for the fun of it? Please....

This is from the perspective of playing the druids:
(OUTLANDER) Lilyth Nightwind the Culmination of Devastation
(NEXUS) Tiria the Priestess of Twist, Paragon of Honesty
(BATTLE WANNABE) Ambra Starsong
(OUTLANDER) Iia the Elemental Queen, Root of the Gaping Maw, Harbinger of Thar-Eris
(OUTLANDER) Aeria Starblaze the Scythe of Amaranthe, Harbinger of Thar-Eris
(FORTRESS) Alyre the Elemental Queen, Child of the Unicorn
(SCARAB) Amora the Blood-Stained Druid, Forger of the .......
(SYLVAN) Crystanthia, Captain of the Sylvan Warders (In Istendil's Time)


1) Funstick. Carrion fields was built on risk and reward and enjoying/suffering the coming and going of equipment. Limiting out metal (in addition to alignment/roleplay restrictions) just makes it a lot less fun for druids to participate that rush of getting that rare item. Imagine playing an arial druid now. The gear slot limitations and no metal would be horrible.

2) It was becoming cheesy with all the converted wood-elf weapons. Just make druid's wood revert back when it leaves their hands (like strengthened equipment does) when ANYONE but a druid touches it. (demon talisman lovers: let's just introduce a 2nd set thats outlander friendly or simply change the adamantite for this universal item since important to universal game mechanics)

3) Druid transmute metal to wood success rates were too high. I would succeed 95% of all transmutations when I NEVER took edges DESIGNED to help it succeed more. Why do these edges exist? SUGGESTION: Make unempowered druids fail transmute metal to wood 90% of the time or not have it at all. Make empowered druids fail 50% of the time instead of 5%. (And as in #2, the equipment changes back if it leaves their hands)

4) I'm in support of Umiron and all he does. I like his intended goal. THOUGHTS: Make "transmute metal to wood" not just change the material type. Have it "restring" the short/long descriptions to replace the "metal keyword" with wood. So a "ring of garnet and gold" becomes a "ring of garnet and wood". "Cape with silver clasps" becomes "cape with wood clasps" etc. My thoughts are if druids can turn metal into wood, they can create the strongest wood in the natural world known to exist.

5) Further on Umiron's concerns. I DEFINITELY came across one or two powerful items that were flagged NO TRANSMUTE METAL TO WOOD. Do an item search for anything "fiery" "molten" and just flag them NO TRANSMUTE METAL TO WOOD. That would be a far stronger roleplay option than taking away "transmute metal to wood". Run a contest board quest like we've done in the past where we ask players to post any items they see which look rediculous to transmute.

6) Side affect BONUS of druids transmute metal to wood re-instating and having a hire failure rate. It would put a LOT MORE equipment back into circulation. It would also make druids choose really hard between giving it back or to an ally as oppose to risking its destruction.

Anyways, these are my thoughts. I hope they are worthwhile, common sense, and fair in the position of all players and immortals.

PS: If the change stays, we should probably obviously nix the edges in existence that help transmute metal to wood. Also, I always thought part of the sacrifice of having to transmute was we got "protection from metals". If it 10 times worse now and metal is gone completely, I'd love to see some love where either a) protection from metals is increased slightly (since its so easy for everyone to get around) or B) druids are offered some TOKEIN protection resistance. Example: 10 or 15% resistance for barkskin depending on the moon.

Druids are in this weird place where they have GREAT protection against newbies who come at them with elemental metal weapons cluelessly. And 0% protection against any above average to veteran player who avoids all forms of their resistance. My thoughts on the fact that Healers/Shamans/Paladins having a 50% resistance at the ready, is druids should get something in the 5 to 10% range (like haven?) to help against the general damage of the world.

We use to be able to mitigate damage slightly (and it still was really low) with edges for barkskin, deny flesh, etc. But this was so negligible and edges don't exist anymore at that level. And even if you took something like wood denial, you can NEVER protect against gems, stones, energy, etc.

Some love here would be nice also in that (unless immortals changed material types that didn't have to be metal since I played a year ago) so many FUN items, that give you that rush when you get them to play around with in carrion fields... are metal :(

While its not a requirement that druids get to use darkened clothing, or lightning bolt rings, or brooches set with blue stones, shields of darkness, or rings of stamina, or the list goes on..... it would be nice to see either material types of the higher level items changed favorably to non-metal for funstick OR give some druids some overall resistance love to make up for limiting half the gearing options and funstick destruction.

Tiria's Equipment List:
METAL: worn on finger a ring of stamina
METAL: worn on finger (Invis) (Glowing) (Humming) the ring of fortitude
worn around neck an ivory amulet shaped like a troll
METAL: worn around neck (Glowing) an alabaster medallion on a fine silver chain
METAL: worn on body (Glowing) (Humming) a suit of darkened platemail
METAL: worn on head (Glowing) (Humming) a darkened helm
worn on legs (Glowing) a pair of sturdy wooden shinpads
METAL: worn on feet a pair of spike-toed boots
????? worn on hands a pair of silver-trimmed, black silk gloves
worn on arms a phylactery of free movement
worn about body some fine silk robes embroidered with arcane symbols
METAL: worn around waist (Humming) a girdle of serpents
worn on wrist a glass eye bracelet
METAL: worn on wrist the Bracelet of Charms
(Humming) a shillelagh of sung wood
METAL: worn as shield (Humming) the shield of darkness

To help with the general damage of the world, that is? All of the druid FAQs practically scream about how much DR you can get with a druid.

Your own protection from metal is already going to be more useful now that it's not trivial to get any weapon transmuted to wood. Yes, there are nonmetal weapons, but there's also Humansunder which isn't going to screw you over as badly anymore.

Oh, and restringing items... it's not at all doable, even though English is a relatively simple language when it comes to word declination and conjugation. There's just too many special cases to foresee.

tl;dr: You know you can still PK and sac people's prep bags without transmute metal to wood, miss Funstick.

To a large part that augments the other protections. So it helps more the things it helps and helps next to nothing what it doesn't.

If you want to test this. Grab five or six sets of protective herbs. Then challenge the mummies army of undead or a scion lion. You'll be sitting at the altar really frustrated....

>To a large part that augments the other protections. So it
>helps more the things it helps and helps next to nothing what
>it doesn't.
>
> If you want to test this. Grab five or six sets of protective
>herbs. Then challenge the mummies army of undead or a scion
>lion. You'll be sitting at the altar really frustrated....

I am admittedly not an experienced enough druid player to fully understand what all one is giving up by selecting 5-6 protective herbs over the other types, but I can say that doing so yields a very significant amount of damage reduction (straight DR al la sanctuary). Granted, it's obviously somewhat subject to the moon phase, but that's druid life.

I'll test this more at some point. You think I'd know for sure right? I have the moon phases down, but maybe taking a few hard to distinguish brutal deaths during the "natural" moon phase, skewed me remembering how worthwhile it could be during the "protective" moon phase.

Somehow I thought it was ALWAYS bad against zombies, shapeshifters, stone, wood, etc, but could be remembering wrong and just the beat downs in the "natural" state of the moon phase.

I had 5 protective herbs in many cases, but one especially egregious one was against a duergar rager specifically to fight them, plus stone skin and protection and still went down in like two rounds after a cranial and two deathblows. After that, I just stopped using protective herbs altogether. Yes, it helps when they wield metal, which any vet won't. It was never anything resembling a sanctuary for straight-up dam, however. Now, granted, if gathered on the right moon, it may do something more, but pretty sure it doesn't.

The damage redux from herbs is substantially better in wilderness rooms. Five protective herbs in the woods is a sizable step up from five protective herbs when charging into Galadon or many enemy cabals.

Thanks. This is one of those herb variables that was so easy to confuse with so many other variables.

One more question. Is herbal forage caring about only the phase when you gather them or the phase at the moment of their use. In otherwords, if you gather ideal herbs and the phase turns does it matter or are you better off gathering for the coming phase?

This explains why Tiria had such a hard time defending her Nexus inner guardian. I'd get defensive herbs and still die nearly instantly to raiding villagers since forced to defend in a non forest room. And why I thought the herbs never worked as intended while raiding tribunal and empire inners!

METAL<worn on finger> (Red Aura) (Legendary) a band of pure gold
METAL<worn on finger> (Invis) (Consecrated) (Famous) the ring of regeneration (Damaged)
THANKGOD<worn around neck> (Famous) (Pale Green) a spherical scarlet and blue Ioun stone
THANKGOD<worn around neck> (Famous) (Pale Green) a spherical scarlet and blue Ioun stone
METAL<worn on body> (Red Aura) (Infamous) (Pale Green) (Glowing) (Humming) a suit of darkened platemail
METAL<worn on head> (Legendary) (Pale Green) a crown of black diamonds
<worn on face> (Noteworthy) (Pale Green) a long veil of spider web and diamond
METAL<worn on legs> (Red Aura) (Consecrated) (Infamous) (Pale Green) (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of darkened leggings (Damaged)
METAL<worn on feet> (Red Aura) (Infamous) (Pale Green) (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of darkened boots (Damaged)
METAL THEN?LEATHER NOW?<worn on hands> (Famous) (Pale Green) (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of fulminator gauntlets
<worn on arms> (Famous) a phylactery of free movement
<worn about body> (Legendary) (Pale Green) (Glowing) a devilskin cape with shimmering red markings
METAL<worn about waist> (Red Aura) (Noteworthy) (Pale Green) (Humming) a girdle of serpents
<worn around wrist> (Famous) (Pale Green) a bracer of dragonscale
<worn around wrist> (Famous) (Pale Green) a bracer of dragonscale
?????<mainhand wielded> (Consecrated) (Legendary) (Glowing) (Humming) the scepter of the ancients
<worn as shield> (Noteworthy) (Pale Green) a shield made of boiled leather
<tattooed> (Consecrated) (Humming) the infinite helix

METAL worn on finger a ring of stamina
METAL worn on finger a ring of stamina
worn around neck (Glowing) a mantle of earth
worn around neck (Glowing) a mantle of earth
worn on body a lovely dress of pristine white satin
METAL worn on head (Glowing) a black mitre
????? worn on face the mask of Urkhulash
????? worn on legs some spider-skin leggings
????? worn on feet a pair of steel lined dragonscale boots
METAL, NOW LEATHER? worn on hands (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of fulminator gauntlets
METAL worn on arms a phylactery of fortitude
METAL worn as shield (Humming) a shield of blackest pitch
worn about body (Glowing) silver embroidered blue silk robes
METAL worn around waist the belt of life
METAL worn on wrist the Bracelet of Longevity
METAL worn on wrist the Bracelet of Longevity
METAL wielded (Humming) a black hammer
an ornate mandala

>This is from the perspective of playing the druids:
>Crystanthia, Amora, Lilyth, Tiria,
>
>1) Funstick. Carrion fields was built on risk and reward and
>enjoying/suffering the coming and going of equipment. Limiting
>out metal (in addition to alignment/roleplay restrictions)
>just makes it a lot less fun for druids. Imagine playing an
>arial druid now. The gear slot limitations and no metal would
>be horrible.

As far as arial equipment slots and arial_only gear goes, one really doesn't lose much by avoiding metal. Maybe 30% of all available equipment for those slots/conditions.

>2) It was becoming cheesy with all the converted wood-elf
>weapons. Just make druid's wood revert back when it leaves
>their hands (like strengthened equipment does) when ANYONE but
>a druid touches it. (demon talisman lovers: let's just
>introduce a 2nd set thats outlander friendly or simply change
>the adamantite for this universal item since important to
>universal game mechanics)

I'd rather see the underlying game mechanic change somehow, but I like said elsewhere I wouldn't really mind seeing the pendant be made of something besides adamantite if that's what makes people happy.

>3) Druid transmute metal to wood success rates were too high.
>I would succeed 95% of all transmutations when I NEVER took
>edges DESIGNED to help it succeed more. Why do these edges
>exist? SUGGESTION: Make unempowered druids fail transmute
>metal to wood 90% of the time or not have it at all. Make
>empowered druids fail 50% of the time instead of 5%. (And as
>in #2, the equipment changes back if it leaves their hands)

It probably should have failed more, but making it fail more doesn't really accomplish much. Every once in a while a druid (or a druid's friend) comes across something that they absolutely can't reacquire if the transmutation fails, but 95% of the time the PC in question can just go get the item and try again at a relatively low inconvenience to themselves.

>4) I'm in support of Umiron and all he does. I like his
>intended goal. THOUGHTS: Make "transmute metal to wood" not
>just change the material type. Have it "restring" the
>short/long descriptions to replace the "metal keyword" with
>wood. So a "ring of garnet and gold" becomes a "ring of garnet
>and wood". "Cape with silver clasps" becomes "cape with wood
>clasps" etc. My thoughts are if druids can turn metal into
>wood, they can create the strongest wood in the natural world
>known to exist.

Eh. That would probably just make most of the descriptions on transmuted items seem really hokey instead of just wrong. We discussed this kind of solution and agreed it felt like a phone-in.

>5) Further on Umiron's concerns. I DEFINITELY came across one
>or two powerful items that were flagged NO TRANSMUTE METAL TO
>WOOD. Do an item search for anything "fiery" "molten" and just
>flag them NO TRANSMUTE METAL TO WOOD. That would be a far
>stronger roleplay option than taking away "transmute metal to
>wood". Run a contest board quest like we've done in the past
>where we ask players to post any items they see which look
>rediculous to transmute.

Items that are "pure" cannot be ####ed with in almost any way, such as being transmuted. Because that flag affects so many things though, we tend(ed) to not use it on items unless they were extraordinary or questy.

>6) Side affect BONUS of druids transmute metal to wood
>re-instating and having a hire failure rate. It would put a
>LOT MORE equipment back into circulation. It would also make
>druids choose really hard between giving it back or to an ally
>as oppose to risking its destruction.

See my comment above. I really don't think this would be the case in practice.

>Anyways, these are my thoughts. I hope they are worthwhile,
>common sense, and fair in the position of all players and
>immortals.

They are definitely worthwhile.

>PS: If the change stays, we should probably obviously nix the
>edges in existance that help transmute metal to wood. Also, I
>always thought part of the sacrifice of having to transmute
>was we got "protection from metals". If it 10 times worse now
>and metal is gone completely, I'd love to see some love where
>either a) protection from metals is increased slightly (since
>its so easy for everyone to get around) or B) druids are
>offered some TOKEIN protection resistance. Example: 5 or 10%
>resistance for barkskin depending on the moon.

Yeah that edge should probably go.

>Druids are in this weird place where they have GREAT
>protection against newbies who come at them with elemental
>metal weapons cluelessly. And 0% protection against any above
>average to veteran player who avoids all forms of their
>resistance. My thoughts on the fact that
>Healers/Shamans/Paladins having a 50% resistance at the ready,
>is druids should get something in the 5 to 10% range (like
>haven?) to help against the general damage of the world.
>
>We use to be able to mitigate damage slightly (and it still
>was really low) with edges for barkskin, deny flesh, etc. But
>this was so negligible and edges don't exist anymore at that
>level. And even if you took something like wood denial, you
>can NEVER protect against gems, stones, energy, etc.

I don't buy any of this, sorry. Even when a druid's opponent is "dressed to fight a druid" the druid isn't really at a disadvantage as much as they are merely without some of their advantages, if anything. Druids are one of the last classes (even without transmute) that would argue need help, and I bet if you really put your back into another druid you could kick enough ass to further reinforce my belief in that.

>Some love here would be nice also in that (unless immortals
>changed material types that didn't have to be metal since I
>played a year ago) so many FUN items, that give you that rush
>when you get them to play around with in carrion fields... are
>metal :(

But again, we're talking about one class. For most people (specifically not you, a serial druid player, I guess?) that's one character out of a handful or dozens.

For many if not most characters there is a huge slice of equipment, quests, easter eggs, etc. that cannot be experienced with that specific build or alignment or cabal or whatever. And that's largely by design for hopefully obvious reasons. If you feel like you're missing out on something because it's been unavailable to your last last five (druid) characters, well...

>While its not a requirement that druids get to use darkened
>clothing, or lightning bolt rings, or brooches set with blue
>stones, shields of darkness, or rings of stamina, or the list
>goes on..... it would be nice to see either material types of
>the higher level items changed favorably OR give some druids
>some overall resistance love to make up for half the gearing
>options and funstick destruction.

See above, mostly.

But what you wrote raises a valid point for both sides of the argument. The staff adds new equipment all the time, between new areas, new mini-areas, and one off projects (usually to address specific gaps).

Maybe CF does need more non-metal one-handed non-physical flails for good/neutral nature-based characters between the levels of 25 and 40. They can always sprinkle a few more in, but until they do I'm content that the sky hasn't fallen (despite my best efforts, as some might assert!).

Good writeup.

Thanks for the answers. I agree with pretty much everything you said. While I still think too much FUN equipment is out of play, I agree pretty much with every single explanation you had for why you went the route you did.

note: Don't let my success with druids skew whether or not they could use help in certain situations (eg. universal minor damage resistance). It's like saying anti-paladin's and necromancers are way too powerful because of Nepenthe's Cabdru and Istendil.

Compromise/Christmas Wish: Perhaps at the very least you'd (and I know you guys do this regularly for magical items, etc?) could look across some of the most fun sought after equipment in the game. Either by looking at some of the equipment lists I just posted or taking a gander at silent tower/hell/etc... and see if it HAS to be metal?

Thanks!

PS: I use to be able to kill anyone in gygax circlets, earthen gear, stone baton, rose rings (ah damn those are metal to), and a leopard skin. But that doesn't mean it's anywhere near as fun to run around in that gear just because you can :)

What are you doing impersonating Amora?

First I'll start out by asking. Who the hell is Jerry? No, seriously :) This is what I get for being completely non-participatory in the ooc community :)

He is a self-proclaimed best warrior player in CF community, who once had killed the commander of battle 25 times. With his megalomania, he's a Dios legend and meme, and if anyone had more PKs than him it was because they had four legacies or something like that.

He's also famous for being repeatedly booted from the village for being a murder-all.

You comparing yourself to Cabdru just reminded me of him.

P.S. Don't mind me, I don't hate you the way I hate Flaaayin, even though you did some mean #### to me once :) But seriously, you come off as super needy here.

Amora is so good at Druid it skews the general idea of how capable the class really is. Nobody has even come into the same ballpark as he has with several race/cabal combos over a variety of changes to the basic class throughout the years.

Besides, people were saying it about dr. Beront too and look at where he is these days?

And if Amora is so good, and has been able to deal with changes to the class before, then she will be able to deal with the change to transmute metal too.

Well, if its any less needy:

Istendil always slaughtered Crystanthia and I was such a newbie in those days.
Cabdru ate, was it Aeria? Whichever druid I THOUGHT was powerful at the time alive in multiple ways, including with that pendant that instant-killed me.
Tiria could never survive against several beserker battleragers even at the inner guardians of nexus.

And I actually think the person you are talking about might be this warrior I hardly ever can beat who is usually a villager hero or a wood-elf natural weapon outlander when I'm playing his opposition... I also played a few nexus and tribunal thieves.

I recognize there are much better players than me. I just really enjoy something about druids. (I like thieves a little bit too)

Question, as I really don't know the answer.

When they put in a bunch of armor changes. Druids were designed to have carapace, barkskin, and transmuted to wood metal equipment combine to form a poor man's version of deflection (I think to make up for there lack of damage resistance?)

Since there will be a lot less high ac metal armor converted to wood (it suffered some AC degradation but kept otherwise higher ac stats). Should carapace and barkskin be looked at for rebalancing to offset what will obviously be a greater skewing towards cloth and such. Obviously light armor will still offer the same protections, but the vast metal armor being used it was balanced with at the time will be gone now. Cloth offers no ac which will now be a huge part of a druids clothing and stone armor is so so rare.

Thanks. Maybe a useless thought. But I don't think anyone is thinking of it or considering it for a nerf that will already hit druids pretty hard on HP/PROC/Stat narrowing down of equipment.

Ok, I kind of agree that lowering transmute success rate massively might be a solution. But at the same time, I feel like outtie Druid already benefits enough from strengthen without getting to apply it to all the best gear in every slot.

Possibly a solution is to make the top tiers of rarity untransmutable, instead of just a few objects, but let the Druid transmute noteworthy easily. Or base transmute can be reliable, then noteworthy 50pc, famous 10pc, legendary 1pc, with the edge boosting these by 20pc.

Too bad it requires coding.

First, thank you all for the responses. I am just going to say this pretty plainly and then leave it at that. The reason I asked for this is because CF is full of inconveniences. Hundreds of them, all barriers to pick up the mantle and play. This is one that is kind of high on my list, while others it is not. And while all this talk of dogma and cabal, and how its doable but you haven't tried hard enough, or whatever, is well to me, whatever. There is enough barriers to this game that tacking on another one which for almost 20 years hasn't been an issue, is an issue, a fun stick issue.

You can hold the line, speak of CF lore and realism, talk about how it promotes RP, but it doesn't. RP comes from having to RP with a druid to turn it into wood. RP comes with goodies having to RP with a paladin to strip the wicked. No RP comes from just not being able to do it.

Last, from a precedent standpoint. During standardization, I believe demon pendant magic flags were specifically stripped, in a large part so BATTLE could use them because it was a pain in the ass to inflict that kind of limitation on them. This is just the same, but it is called OUTLANDER now. Especially removing the avenue of which to get them changed (which was a pain in the ass previously). If you make something impossible that was for upward of 20 years possible, for the sake of players and convenience, as well as literally no down side, why not just do it? You would net and have good will with 5 or 6 documented players here. Which judging by the playerbase, is a needed thing.

I know you are all great roleplayers, I'm pretty much guessing this will be dismissed as a weak minded player who cannot deal with hardship. etc. etc. etc. But you know what, this is the straws that break things. And its annoying, and I like the fun stick. And running around wearing -1500 mana manacles, or going to find the transmute metal to wood scroll that doesn't work, or going to this specific area where there is this thing that would do the same as 5 seconds of work. I get it that makes other people happy, it doesn't me. And as a player that doesn't voice my opinion much, you should realize this kind of player exists in your every day environment.

Rant off. I'll go back to not posting on these forums and just play (or not play) in the sandbox.

Thanks for listening.

But as history shows, with the very limited available imp time, the reasons to change something that is not a bug should be really serious. Low playerbase affects imms as well.

What you say is true they never should have removed the magic flag from the pendants. But they did remove it. So now they should put the magic flag back. While they are at it they should add an anti_tribunal and anti_empire flag to it soo only uncaballed, scarabs, and fort members could use them. But I think that would anger a lot of players. I don't think imp time matters with this one because it's a simple item change.

Because when you are asked to do something, first you use every single excuse available not to unless it's urgent or fun for you.

Outlander pendants are not urgent. Never were, never will be. Whether changing them would be fun for someone responsible - we'll see.

I shouldn't make assumptions about the code, I realize that. But isn't this an easy fix? They did it once before for battle, and that wasn't urgent never will be like you said. They still did it. Why not do it again? Do you know much about coding to tell if this is an easy or a complicated change to make? I don't know that stuff, so any insight would help.

But it still requires effort. And until you're convinced, you don't move a finger. That's human nature mixed with feeling of responsibility.

What an irony to hear this from someone who broke so many funsticks.

You seem to confuse RP and interaction. RP isn't necessarily talking. It's doing what your character would do.

Yes, CF is full of inconveniences. Makes it more difficult to not make mistakes. Makes the game harder to master. We all hate it, but it is by design.

I cannot believe people are still butthurt about me taking the worst possible thief build ever reported and beating you over the head with it. What like 5 years ago?

I'm not confused about RP. Stop trying to boil this argument down to confusion. It is not. I am well versed in CF, its difficulties, and its learning curve. This is really just an answer to one question:

Did your change to transmute metal to wood was meant to also intentionally make it so demon pendants would not be usable by a whole cabal? Is this by design?

It sounds like that it kind of was. And I disagree with it. And I'm communicating how these kind of tiny things in the grand scheme of things annoy the crap out of players. YMMV. They are free to take the feedback and run with it or ignore it.

>Did your change to transmute metal to wood was meant to also
>intentionally make it so demon pendants would not be usable by
>a whole cabal? Is this by design?
>
>It sounds like that it kind of was. And I disagree with it.
>And I'm communicating how these kind of tiny things in the
>grand scheme of things annoy the crap out of players. YMMV.
>They are free to take the feedback and run with it or ignore
>it.

I made this change. It had nothing to do with that specific item (you can read about what it did have to do with in another post). The pendant simply never crossed my mind. An unintended side effect of the change is that Outlanders (for RP reasons) no longer have access to a specific and highly utilitarian piece of equipment for which there are no practical substitutes.

Whether the staff chooses to change its material or otherwise "fix it" is up to them. Personally I don't think the status quo is quite as insufferable as you do, but I also don't think changing them to steel (or whatever) is at all unreasonable either. Like I said, the point of the change was not to prevent Outlander warrior from being unable to effectively utilize nodrop weapons, but at the same time making sure Outlander warrior could wasn't a goal either.

If it was changed before to allow battle characters to use it, why not change it again so outlanders can use it?

Umi is no longer on the Staff.. despite the Imm Tag on his profile...

I appreciate it. I feel at least a bit heard. Have fun in the fields!

Just curious. Seems like you might want to try and enjoy the game you've worked hard at keeping maintained for a while?

nt

Been and off for about 10 years now, and I really hope you manage to have the same experiences which always bring me back, and avoid the ones which turn me off at times.

Thanks

It would also come with a pretty sizable inconvenience that would make the item itself less "easy" for everyone.

I just don't like griefers, especially those who #### over newbies.
You may call it butthurt, but I think you are a cancer to the game and it is better for us all if you don't play.

But I take your character as an epitome of a ####bag griefer, and I didn't even play CF at the time.

Just when a talk starts about griefing and assholes - your name pops up. Always. And there's no smoke w/o fire.

On an aside, "help adamantite" has been updated to better explain why Outlander hates it in case anyone else couldn't figure out a good reason why they did.

The fact that transmute metal to wood isnt available in the druid wheelhouse anymore doesn't mean that an Outlander warrior isn't viable. It just means that its not as convenient as it used to be.

You guys really dig your heels in on questionable decisions.

As an aside, I thought it was only unempowered druids who lose transmute metal to wood and ALL healers that lose fly

You think its questionable, the staff thought otherwise.

If someone could come up with a convincing argument other than "not being able to use adamantite as an Outlander is annoying" then it would probably go a long way in starting a dialogue about change.

When village switched to not wearing magic flagged gear there was a reexamination of if items should be flagged magic.

When outlander became anti coin barter went in an wilderness healers and shop keeps were added.

I think the general purpose of this change was to make the anti metal gearing of Druids and savages meaningful and to a lesser extent cut down on natural weapons for strengthen and wood elves.

Adding a similar stat loss item or just changing the material of the pendant is a pretty minor quality of life compensation for outlanders, if you add a similar item maybe make it anti evil to promote non reaver melee classes in the cabal?

Prologue: I realize some people are just going to start shouting about Valg and realism and how I'm the devil, and that's great. Moving on.

Transmute was a regrettable necessity when it was introduced because there was a lot less equipment in CF at the time and the equipment that did exist (as you point out) wasn't necessarily thought out from a big picture perspective.

In modern CF it's isn't necessary anymore and given it's hacky/contrived presentation in CF's text medium, we (then) opted to remove it. It had served its purpose and could be killed off at a convenient time when druids were being tweaked anyway.

The rationale behind this is the same one that drives many immortals to write night descriptions for their areas and that has driven numerous mechanics decisions over the years. Sometimes we cheat a little (e.g., a room can be burning even if the description itself doesn't mention that glaring fact), but that an item can be made of wood and still be described as being metal embedded with gems and radiating fire (or whatever) never made sense and so eventually that shoehorned gimmick just went away.

There was also some agreement that Transmute just make life a little too easy for many Outlander builds, but that's neither here nor there.

1. ...so outlander warriors can utilize two specs
-----------------------------------------------
No_disarm weapons (and quality weapons) are an important part of this game. This change significantly limits the effectiveness outlander warriors.



2. ...so the outlander skill strengthen can improve meaningful weapons (and armors)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Strengthen was designed in the knowledge that transmuting metal-to-wood was an option. Present game design is significantly lacking in adequate natural material weapons/eq. In weakening druids, you also diminished the value of this cabal power.

3. ...savage rangers don't seem to be terrorizing CF
Are they popular? Yes, but I don't think disproportionately so. I suspect they are not too powerful with transmuted gear.



Keep in mind, the new low-player count CF makes finding a druid willing to transmute weapons and armor difficult. Making TM2W impossible just seems like druids and outlanders have no advocate among the admin.

1) every outtie leader gets a nodisarm weapon and most nodisarm weapons are usable by the majority of characters who know that weapon skill so not being able to xmute it generally just means no strengthening of it

2) I think we will fundamentally disagree on the design of strengthen if you only think its function had to do with transmute metal to wood. I will agree with you that strengthen doesn't pack the same punch as it did prior because you can't take the best gear, get it transmuted, and then make it better than it was prior. To me, a better option would be to make strengthen a better/more interesting skill than just HP/ac on armor and hit/dmg on weapons.

Ironically one of the highest level and most active imms on staff is Outlander imm.

First, thank you for not taking a condescending tone. In many of your recent posts, you've come across as though you have grown jaded, as though you hate discussing things with players and instead would rather take an authoritarian role.


1. A warrior benefits from having two specs. If the one viable means of switching cursed weapons is a pendant they are no longer able to wear, they are down to one specialization.

2. The latter half of your response gets to the heart of my point regarding strengthen, in that it was designed with TM2W in mind. We who play outlanders are encouraged that you are willing to introduce something to offset the limitations imposed on the cabal power.


Ironically, just because one of the immortals is an outlander imm does not mean said immortal is acting as an advocate.

>1. A warrior benefits from having two specs. If the one viable
>means of switching cursed weapons is a pendant they are no
>longer able to wear, they are down to one specialization.

Claiming you can't use two specs because you no longer have access to one pendant is hysterical and not really helping your argument.

I play mostly warriors and rangers, and invariably Empire is my enemy.
Imperial Tactics and its autodisarm is a pain to fight against. If I played mostly imperials, I probably wouldn't be arguing against that pendants are a very useful tool.

I acknowledge my bias. I'd love to see Fortress and Outlanders thrown a bone, as CF has always skewed evil, and I don't see any changes lately in code or consequence to mitigate that.


- - -
LADY MACDUFF Every one that does so is a traitor, and must be hanged.

Son And must they all be hanged that swear and lie?

LADY MACDUFF Every one.

Son Who must hang them?

LADY MACDUFF Why, the honest men.

Son Then the liars and swearers are fools,
for there are liars and swearers enow to beat
the honest men and hang up them.

FWIW I think that from a funstick point of view it would be good to change these pendants to a different material or introduce a similar alternative because the current alternatives would make me rather not have a cursed weapon at all (were I to play an outlander). And TBH if I were you I would start checking these pendants on a regular basis to see if a stealth change is ever made to them.

The lengths you are going to to argue the point though are astounding RE: only one warrior spec :)

He has a strange way of saying such things. In his last post he did clearly say the material of the pendants should be changed, even if complained about how you argue.

Unnecessary as always, but I appreciate your effort regardless.

playing one of them now.

Not that I'd be playing anything else, I haven't played for close to 2 years now.

So, one suggestion: Vote with your actions and stop playing Outlander or CF entirely instead of begging the usual suspects who have no inclination to listen. Let the game die and them with it.

"The lips of wisdom are sealed, except to ears of understanding."

NT

No disarm? Last time I had a leader, they were nodrop. That would be a nice chance to combat autodisarm.

NT

>1. ...so outlander warriors can utilize two specs
>-----------------------------------------------
>No_disarm weapons (and quality weapons) are an important part
>of this game. This change significantly limits the
>effectiveness outlander warriors.

Since there are only 8 nodisarm weapons in the entire game, I'm going to assume you mean noremove. Only about 20% of the noremove weapons in the game are a non-metal material, but there are options.

Now as far as "quality weapons" go, that's subjective, but I can say that...

Of the 592 avg 20+ weapons in the game, 248 are non-metal.
Of the 332 avg 24+ weapons in the game, 332 are non-metal.
Of the 141 avg 27+ weapons in the game, 65 are non-metal.
And of the 24 avg 30+ weapons in the game, 11 are non-metal.

I can live with that.

>
>
>2. ...so the outlander skill strengthen can improve meaningful
>weapons (and armors)
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>Strengthen was designed in the knowledge that transmuting
>metal-to-wood was an option. Present game design is
>significantly lacking in adequate natural material weapons/eq.
>In weakening druids, you also diminished the value of this
>cabal power.

If you can't feel like you're getting good mileage out of strengthen then your expectations are/were too high.

>3. ...savage rangers don't seem to be terrorizing CF
>Are they popular? Yes, but I don't think disproportionately
>so. I suspect they are not too powerful with transmuted gear.
>

Removing transmute wasn't in any way motivated by savage rangers, nor do I think savage rangers are unplayable (or even unattractive) now that it's gone.

>
>Keep in mind, the new low-player count CF makes finding a
>druid willing to transmute weapons and armor difficult. Making
>TM2W impossible just seems like druids and outlanders have no
>advocate among the admin.

I suspect the empowerment change would've largely or completely nullified this theory had transmute not been removed, but who knows.

IC and sorta OOC too, I think adamantite is a no-touch for Outlanders. Back when I had the transmute, I dropped and sacced anything that was made of adamantite given to me to transmute. I also instituted a very specific no-adamantite-use rule for the wardens, which I mention at the end of any induct. To me, it was always clear demon pendants are a no-no, even transmuted.

While I would like for the transmute to be available for the empowered priests and while I don't think there's any/much IC basis for removing it from pre-existing druids, I think the main problem that I have with not having access to it is the regear in basics problem for when you're stripped to the pies.

For an easy example, I can't even think of a good druid regear ring that's not highly limited. The rose ones were my go-to rings, but they're metal, as are a very good number of other basic regear rings. For melee it's much easier, but I honestly can't recall a good unlimited non-metal ring for druids/mages.

Other slots are also puzzling for me, and I honestly don't know how I can dress/regear in this brave new world if, say, Enpolad dragon things are not available. Outfitting self will be rather difficult, plus there are very difficult weapon choices, for example in the world of exotics, which would be fairly good and available.

I propose two solutions:

1) Transmute can only succeed with non-limited stuff. Easily solves the problem of transmuting anything really desirable and making life too easy, but really helps with the regear and encourages RP interactions for the savage that's missing a gear piece or two.

2) Transmute makes gear druid-only. Can be combined with the above, the minus is that it's less RP around savage/druids.

so this change screws up outlander felar rangers too.

Then you have adamantite weapons that are extremely useful
(wave dancer, spider axe, mace and scimitar come immediately to mind)
that are now off limits.

The pendant of course is even worse cause it was taken for granted for decades.

As long as it's not MOST builds that become less appealing (like with the edge changes), something else will take the felar rangers' place and the world will move on.

On the bright side, protection from metal has become more useful, which benefits those very same savage rangers who can no longer druid their gear.

like in the TESCO ad.

Little "####ings" like this one keep adding up to a big cluster####.
At what point you're like why bother?

As if we didn't have enough hoops to jump through before.

NT

When claw extensions give you an extra claw attack, that extra attack should count as a hit from adamantite weapon for all purposes where that matters.

I've calculated it as a mini-deathblow.

Isn't something being unnecessarily annoying in a game itself a convincing argument?

Certain things like using those pendants to drop cursed weapons without losing the curse are core game mechanics in this game. Just like warriors needing a source of detect invisibility or warriors carrying rafts to make their bash work better or people flying all over the place because 'trip' is so powerful without flight.

I never felt like 'transmute metal to wood' was a problem. The game has enough hoops to jump through. This is just another one. I can't play magi because gathering wands is as much fun as anal warts and now it seems I can't play Outlander warriors (or druids) because they are even more annoying to play now than they were before.

In fact if you make every class annoying enough then no one will play any of them.

Your opinion means #### unless you have applied to and been accepted to join the staff.

Pretty viable. Never ever used demon pendants. Mostly because from RP point of view, even touching those would be defying the Ancients.

Some better druids plainly refused to turn those to wood as well. Because that's just plain bad RP on outlander behalf.

My outties have also never touched the pendants. Although none were warriors.

Having played outlander Druid itself I don't feel that losing transmute will leave them weak. Not as crazy strong, perhaps, but not weak.

While I understand there are downsides to Cabal dogma, outlander limited healer and merchant options are rather rough as it is. All they were asking for was potentially changing the pendant to another metal, not getting the commune back. As they still have much more limited options for strengthen, it seems a reasonable topic of discussion.

There are some area explore methods to yield the desired affect.

Happy hunting!

This is like telling a person of dying of thirst that there is water in the world. Good to know but not helpful at all. As I can almost guarantee I won't randomly find this quest in whatever area explore you are talking about, this still leaves outlander warrior incredibly undesirable. Considering some of your enemies will have auto-disarm or be rolling with spaces and a penchant to disarm a ton, it is just asking for a world of pain.

Go get the cursed periapt. Wear/remove until the stacked plagued cause you to drop, cure plague/poison.

So in the middle of a raid defense I should plague and poison myself to be able to switch weapons? If you don't see this as a drastic difference from how easy it was to switch cursed weapons I don't know what to tell you.

NT

If all you want to do is turn demon pendants to wood, you don't need it that badly. If want to turn humansunder into wood for a drow warrior, now that's another thing.

Trying to drop noremove weapons through strength loss is simple enough and laxman gave a good example.

Just knowing turn metal to wood exists outside the class should inspire you to explore.

it doesn't seem to actually work, at least it didn't when I tried reciting it on an item.

That aside, the loss of transmute is a good change. Evens things out between those who have druid friends, and those who don't.

People who know it will continue to know it. People who don't know it will continue to not know it. If you think that will change without people being shown/told how to get there, you're living in a fantasy world.

Nt

>People who know it will continue to know it. People who
>don't know it will continue to not know it. If you think that
>will change without people being shown/told how to get there,
>you're living in a fantasy world.

What utter tripe. I learned what I know about ST by myself solo. I had never stepped into ST before my Herald warrior Olorqualn and now I know the area pretty well.

It's called exploring (and logging and mapping and going through all your logs while you are at work to pick up on things you may have missed). And it's the one thing left in CF, for me, that is enjoyable. And I appreciate the efforts made by various immortals that go into creating such ridiculously amazing and challenging areas.

You can say whatever tripe you wish to. It won't change the truth, and everyone knows it. Good day to you.

like that Hell .XLS that fell into my hands some time ago.

I bet he did all of that solo.
Of course he did.

Bemused: Still waiting for the latest version, you have my email ;-]

But you already knew that. I will not be triggered.

1) If you make a mistake, it has the potential to permanently screw over your character. There have been a few people who suddenly age-died at young age or whatever, because of ST stuff.

2) The above, coupled with the fact only exceptional characters are allowed into ST. Mine are not even so good to have any ImmXP that is required for entry, and if they were, I'd rather not get them ruined exploring. (I understand the requirement was changed to accommodate RoleXP, but you still need *some* ImmXP, just less.)

3) If you trudge through that and actually find something useful, Daevryn is just going to change the tower so that your data is no longer valid.

>2) The above, coupled with the fact only exceptional
>characters are allowed into ST. Mine are not even so good to
>have any ImmXP that is required for entry, and if they were,
>I'd rather not get them ruined exploring. (I understand the
>requirement was changed to accommodate RoleXP, but you still
>need *some* ImmXP, just less.)

I've gotten in with ONLY role XP and NO IMM xp. An above average starter role with some good updates should be enough.

Note that "an above average starting role" still means it's no longer a throwaway; it's something you care about and don't want it ruined by some stupid piece of gear or ST trap or fountain or whatever else is there.

You think people should have to explore Silent Tower to be able to transmute pendants so they can wield cursed weapons?

For what it's worth I don't want to know anything about that place. I have no desire to go there, especially after it's been added/removed/nerfed/teased/etc over the years. Things being massively overpowered then nerfed because non-Imms figured it out..etc. No thank you. Keep that area, I want nothing to do with it.

Not taking lims into account:

Name: a black wooden ring Area: Coven of Dralkar Wood
Item Type: clothing Wear: finger Material: wood
Level: 21 Weight: 0 lb 1 oz
Modifies hp by 15
Modifies strength by -2

Name: a hooded cape of bear fur Area: Village of Lallenyha
Item Type: armor Wear: about Material: fur
Level: 20 Weight: 8 lb 11 oz
Amor Class: Pierce: 6 Bash: 7 Slash: 6 Magic: 1 Element: 8
Modifies constitution by 3
Modifies hp by 15
Modifies strength by -3

Name: some chain manacles Area: Castle of Akan
Item Type: armor Wear: hands Material: bronze
Level: 25 Weight: 4 lb 12 oz
Amor Class: Pierce: 4 Bash: 7 Slash: 9 Magic: 2 Element: 0
Modifies dexterity by -5
Modifies hit roll by -5
Modifies mana by -1500
Modifies strength by -5

Name: a darkened shield Area: Mausoleum
Item Type: armor Wear: shield Material: iron
Level: 25 Weight: 11 lb 15 oz
Flags: glowing humming nodrop noremove
Amor Class: Pierce: 8 Bash: 8 Slash: 8 Magic: 2 Element: 5
Modifies constitution by -2
Modifies damage roll by -6
Modifies hit roll by -2
Modifies hp by -20
Modifies strength by -3

Name: a hooded cape of bear fur Area: Village of Lallenyha
Item Type: armor Wear: about Material: fur
Level: 20 Weight: 8 lb 11 oz
Amor Class: Pierce: 6 Bash: 7 Slash: 6 Magic: 1 Element: 8
Modifies constitution by 3
Modifies hp by 15
Modifies strength by -3

Name: a rat-eaten poncho Area: Mausoleum
Item Type: clothing Wear: about Material: cloth
Level: 1 Weight: 6 lb 10 oz
Flags: nodrop noremove
Modifies armor class by 20
Modifies constitution by -5
Modifies damage roll by -6
Modifies strength by -3

Name: some chain manacles Area: Castle of Akan
Item Type: armor Wear: feet Material: bronze
Level: 25 Weight: 5 lb 15 oz
Amor Class: Pierce: 4 Bash: 7 Slash: 9 Magic: 2 Element: 0
Modifies dexterity by -5
Modifies moves by -75
Modifies strength by -2

Name: a suit of rusted platemail Area: The Keep of Barovia
Item Type: armor Wear: body Material: steel
Level: 22 Weight: 29 lb 15 oz
Flags: evil nodrop noremove anti_good
Amor Class: Pierce: 10 Bash: 11 Slash: 14 Magic: 2 Element: 5
Modifies damage roll by -2
Modifies dexterity by -2
Modifies hit roll by -2
Modifies strength by -2

nt

And indeed a reason I didn't use those as Kaer too, despite them being the best.