Shouldn't it be a two round power, not one? It's incredibly powerful, and it's just a one rounder. Maybe reconsider that?

That the Emperor is the most powerful person in Thera. The powers should reflect that. With that being said I've been on the wrong end of it many times. Kurbrawn wrecked me in one flurry on two difference occasions and don't get me started on Ahtieli. But even then it fit with the rp dynamic of the mud.

If there's anything I've ever felt needed a save it's insects. And the crying about insects is louder than all else (even deathblow) when there's a competent flyto shifter, pursuit ranger or warrior.

Point being something is always going to suck when the right players are playing the combo. Just enjoy the game and gang the piss out of them.

>If there's anything I've ever felt needed a save it's insects.
>And the crying about insects is louder than all else (even
>deathblow) when there's a competent flyto shifter, pursuit
>ranger or warrior.

Insects doesn't have a save but it does have a (terrain dependent) chance modifier and the chance itself rarely of ever reaches above 90-95% or so even in primo terrain, with the exception that insects love to bone undead.

Should sigil have a cool down timer?

You still have to escape the first set of insects.

I don't think sigil is the kind of threat insects is.

The other question I have is if there's a save against sigil. As lots of people keep saying there is a save against phoenix brand, and soften and all the other similar stuff, but I haven't yet seen a log of sigil failing. Not once.

So I'd ask for two things, see what people think.

Make sigil two rounds.

Imms, please check and see if there is a save for sigil and if it's working right. If there isn't, shouldn't there be?

There probably wont be any changes about this. People didn't complain about sigil when it was on a shaman or a warrior. If sigil was on a healer, no one cares. The root of the problem isn't sigil.

Shouldn't there at least be a chance to save against it? Why is this one thing without any chance to resist?

Why should everything have a chance to resist?

Throw edge?

I'd be really curious to hear what the staffs opinion on that edge is. Is it just anothe flavor of the month complaint or is there merit to it?

I lump that edge into the same category as Striking legacy in that adding that 1 variable onto a character who can benefit from it makes WAY too large of an impact.

Personally, I would remove both of those things because it would go a long way in making assassins and elven (any race of them really) warriors back at the same powerline as other things.

Something that I also think has been an unintended and potentially negative side affect of the EP removal is that assassins suffered from it less than other classes, primarily because of the way their edges were designed. Assassins have a lot of mutually exclusive edges whereas other classes have edges that stack on top of a previous edge etc.

So if every class only gets 5 edges, assassin is still pretty similar in power scale as they were when they had 20 edges. They just have less of the additional fluff and fancy stuff, but they still have their master of X edge, their buki edge and things like a master of kot/kan.

The solution to things with too large an impact is to reduce the effectiveness, not to take them out altogher. Eg tail of the lizard scrolls should exist for balance reasons, but the success rate of avoiding bashes needed to be about a third of what it was.

/

No matter what decisions the staff makes, some people are happy and some are mad. I would rather just blow up the small things that create large problems if it was up to me.

Nobody complained about the throw edge on Niji and I probably had more pk's than current Emperor. You have to give them something real to complain about or they create things to fill the void.

With comments like "Throw is not OP mmmkay" :)

NT

When I think about it, as a melee type character in general, I like my chances against the striking elf better than the throw assassin.

I think that in itself says a lot since I am basically saying an edge is better than one of the most powerful legacies.

At least with striking there are things that can be done to counter it to some degree. You can have high int, you can be predictable, heck even a cranial can help.

As far as I know there are no counters to the throw edge.

Having played a few striking elves I'd be cool with it's removal. If even for the mere fact that when you roll an elf you wouldn't feel so obligated to take striking and could try something else out.

I also agree with your opinions on assassin edges and that throw edge should be removed but if not the removal of throw edge I think it should at least be nerfed and some counters given. Actually I think both should be done. Remove for future assassins and nerfed for the current.

As far as I know there are no counters to the throw edge.




You've played CF for how many years and have had how many assassins with this edge and you're saying you still don't know restrictions to throw or edged throw?

Are you suuuuuuuuuuuuure you aren't just jumping on the 'throw edge is OP and needs to go' 3rd Quarter (Sept-Nov) bandwagon?

There's a lot of other stuff you could complain about. Just because an active Emperor has throw edge does not mean CF is broken.

And I don't know any counter to it for melee classes. Care to share?

It's called damage reduction.

Nt

They can still throw you with 99% reliability even when you're bigger and not aiming at them.

gr

Reading comprehension and common sense.

Well, unpredictable edge, which counters striking, also counters martial trance iirc.

I don't remember getting blocked too often and I put it down to that edge.

It's kind of stupid that the edge is so useful because striking is so popular.

is that requires int as prerequisite. Which should be fixed. Would fix many trance/STSF issues as well.

P.S. Oh the edge points, right.

They have a lot of both passive and active damage so it really shines.

I agree with that statement. But did anyone complain about sigil when Hunsobo or Jarlduz had it? Nope!

nt

gr

Actually I complained about Hunsobo in general. But he also had really good gear and a duergar shaman played by Isildur at the time. Which completely rocked Zephon...which mostly did not have to do with sigil. Poor Zephon. Summon bash is not your friend.

they've needed them for over a decade, people have complained about them for over a decade, and i myself have complained about them for over a decade. there are not 2 skills in the game of similar power without a failure check.

it is absolutely retarded that tactics trip/dirt/disarm never fails, never does a skill check, or modified stat check, or anything, on any type of class. tactics should check by class (blades should have higher chance to land than an emperor black or divine sect) and by skill (dagger should disarm less than sword, or trip should land less for a sub 20 dex).

imms have toned other abilities appropriately (insects, bloodthirst) over the years but empire has not been touched. weird.

I would guess its because the various coders over the years haven't felt that there was a need for it. I would guess there are more situations where insects or bloodthirst made a bigger impact than tactics or sigil.

I can't believe there isn't a bigger hate getting thrown at piercing gaze. Detect all is way more of a game changer than free trip or free disarm (both of which are pretty easy to make irrelevant esp these days).

The limits are decent because while they know someone is there it's not as good as having detect X.

But when you can summon them out of concealment it gets a bit messy. I guess it works that way to let assassins stalk camo targets. If it was changed it could help cabal defense against emperor AP, necro, and shaman.

gr

You can fail to call Sigil of Pain in the same way you can lose your concentration when casting a spell, but if the spell actually attempts it will land 100% of the time. There's no opportunity to save or otherwise resist it.

How many other spells or communes are there that will land 100% of the time as long as they are used successfully?

Faerie fire.

Almost All damage spells (just less so).

Entangle supp.

I could probably go on.

Almost all spells (or communes/powers) behave this way, but many especially powerful abilities bake in a save or otherwise provide some means if resistance. Examples include rot, neurological disruption, sleep, and corporeal softening (which has a similar effect to sigil).

My two cents is that sigil not allowing for a save isn't the worst thing in the world (DR is plentiful, after all).

I think the source of people's frustration with it right now more stems from the fact that a cabal that's purpose is to be a roving murder squad may not make as much sense in modern CF as it did back when the game was a massive game of multi-team CTF, and that's exacerbated by the good vs. evil skew that Verathi sort of described in Xisaer's (sp?) goodbye.

>I think the source of people's frustration with it right now
>more stems from the fact that a cabal that's purpose is to be
>a roving murder squad may not make as much sense in modern CF
>as it did back when the game was a massive game of multi-team
>CTF, and that's exacerbated by the good vs. evil skew that
>Verathi sort of described in Xisaer's (sp?) goodbye.
>

I think some of this is that team evil coordinates way better than team good. Team evil can be Empire + Orc, Scarabs + Orc, Battle + Scarabs, Empire + Tribunal, or Tribunal + Orc or...

Where as Good is really just Maran + Acolyte. I can totally understand why Worthag played the way he did, and I've played the same. He is just one (now dead) example of team Evil at it's silliest, which is why I mention him. Basically team Red with no real evil action involved. Totally dependable and reliable as an ally, even for those who know he was also allies with their enemies. Like running with Scarabs one minute, Piscary the next, and Emperor the next. The sad part is, it mostly makes sense from a certain evil RP perspective as well...

Warlock was a great cabal IMO and a good foil to some of the tough classes. But I'd keep the cabal qh separate from fort.

My opinion is that the way Empire has worked in the past is not exactly good for the game in general. But ganks of 5+ used to be common place. They still sucked back then though.

That sounds right, but does not seem right. There really should be a counter to that sort of thing. Or at least a fail chance of 5-10%.

Insects are just as good, as are provost lieutenants.

NT

I can't see lieutenants killing me but insects can and does on many of the builds who have had it.

They are great meat shields and pump significant damage. Mix that with flee prevention and skill getting engaged and it's nuts. I think we simply have not seen as many player+build combinations to really exploit it as we have outlander leaders.

I mean a lot of triv leaders have been Paladins and shifters. We had one fairly competent assassin that totally disrupted hero range with them (the tabbies helped but just throw and tents is pretty mean)

What we are discussing are not assassin powers but Emperor assassin who is a damn good PKer.

So taking general decisions based on that instance would be straight out stupid.

So you get a sigil and if you don't gtfo the moment you get it, boom goes throw permalag.

The problem with that is throw permalag, not sigil.

Throw + ground control + ground fighter edge + sigil = Guaranteed CAPS damage on everything but uber protected people.

Which is like 50% permalag chance.
W/o sigil, you may stay alive for like 4 or 5 throws, which gives you a chance to do things.

Sigil isn't a doubling or more of damage, you realise?

It makes less difference than you claim.

Personally I like it when people sigil me as I don't feel more likely to die and I can use that time to do something. Although vs edged throw I would be using wraith form or armor of thorns.

Now why is sigil fine as it is? Because if the assassin uses sigil on me I can flee and use that prep.

how you post preps extremely limited and unknown to the wide public as common. Well they're not.

Also the point is, if the Emperor uses sigil on you, you've got ONLY 1 round to flee. Most people are not that elite to judge and react so fast. Then you get lagged (50% - for 4 rounds, 25% - for 6 rounds). And if you're smart enough to fail your only flee command or type "where" instead - you're pretty done for.

Then again, if you're smart enough to do a 2 round move in a fight with Naz with no throw protection, and it's met with 1 round sigil and then throw - you almost have no chance, sorry bro.

P.S. And don't give me "6 rounds are not enough to kill me". Because it's MORE than enough because stalk trance.