So I shared an Imm help file I had to clear up some misinformation on the other board, not to help people game the system(Which they've been doing ever since I can remember). Probably should have thought it through before I did it, but I just feel like 80% of the Mud already knows this stuff. After playing 20+ years I feel like the few remaining players have this same kind of knowledge about the veil of Imm secrets. I wasn't at all expecting the kind of backlash because I thought the knowledge hording had gone out with the old regime(maybe because you guys don't realize how many people already script explore?). So what I'm curious about is, do the Imms think that the vast majority of players don't know these things already or is it more like don't ask don't tell policy? In it's twilight years with the playerbase dwindling away, why is there still such harsh reactions to this stuff? Is it really game breaking if someone gets an extra edge or two because they know all the obs points(Still have to spend hours upon hours doing it)? Does it matter if someone scripts the Docks(easy PK for others)? I feel like you guys are polishing the brass on the Titanic. I'm not saying post a walk through of Hell, but the I'm taking my ball and going home attitude every time someone blurts out something most people already know just seems counter productive at this point. Anyway I'm sorry I pissed you guys off, wasn't my intention.

>So I shared an Imm help file I had to clear up some
>misinformation on the other board, not to help people game the
>system(Which they've been doing ever since I can remember).
>Probably should have thought it through before I did it, but
>I just feel like 80% of the Mud already knows this stuff.

Short version: You shared an Immortal-only helpfile. It's Immortal-only so that an Immortal can be aware of what's causing mortals problems, but it's Immortal-only so those players that are the reason such a helpfile exists can't suddenly write up scripts to only look at 23 items a tick instead of 24. I don't think 80% of the playerbase knew those specifics, and will be rather disappointed if they did. I certainly never knew it before I was an Immortal (as I had to actually hunt down these answers when I ran into a player with the problem). I did know there were some form of deterrent to scripting. Ultimately, I just always did my exploring myself, and never ran into the problem. It's pretty much impossible to hit that limit w/o a computer doing it for you.

>After playing 20+ years I feel like the few remaining players
>have this same kind of knowledge about the veil of Imm
>secrets. I wasn't at all expecting the kind of backlash
>because I thought the knowledge hording had gone out with the
>old regime(maybe because you guys don't realize how many
>people already script explore?). So what I'm curious about is,
>do the Imms think that the vast majority of players don't know
>these things already or is it more like don't ask don't tell
>policy?

The vast majority of "Imm secrets" I ever run into amount to things that are as follows:

1) Anti-cheating deterrents, and we don't want people knowing specifics to figure out how to get around them.
2) Things related to unopened areas, unfinished classes, etc. Most of this is somewhat harmless, and unsaid because in many of these cases, the work may never be finished, or take quite a long time yet.
3) Similar to 2 above - CF mechanics on a truly under the hood level. This is mostly in relation towards the actual setup and prevention of people straight up copying CF's code. On a player level of "how do I make use of XYZ basic skill?" that's not really the concern. Questy sorts of things are a bit of a middle ground.

As an example of something that I think worked really well, I thought the playerbase did very well respecting Scarabaeus' request regarding the new greater undead. While it was new and unique, people avoided posting straight up walkthroughs, but as it became an existing feature, the knowledge came out at an appropriate rate.

> In it's twilight years with the playerbase dwindling
>away, why is there still such harsh reactions to this stuff?
>Is it really game breaking if someone gets an extra edge or
>two because they know all the obs points(Still have to spend
>hours upon hours doing it)? Does it matter if someone scripts
>the Docks(easy PK for others)?

I think the major issue is the fact of players taking the system designed to reward people legitimately exploring areas, utterly ignoring the point, and now at the point of not even doing the work themselves anymore. At this point, we have a system that the new/casual player is at an automatic disadvantage over the longer-term player who's cheating the system to just get the free rewards. To some degree, we're aware that information gets shared, but when it's to a level of people publicly handing out 90% of the information about specific systems, that's a bit out of hand. The people you're so concerned about aren't still taking hours to walk through areas, they're throwing a script up and coming back later.

On the flip side, I'm also a little baffled by the overkill of people deleting information on the lightning spear on Dio's. Given how often Daevryn or Umiron had answered questions about skill abilities over the last few years, the addition of the item search lately.

I feel like you guys are
>polishing the brass on the Titanic. I'm not saying post a walk
>through of Hell, but the I'm taking my ball and going home
>attitude every time someone blurts out something most people
>already know just seems counter productive at this point.

I will say there's a decent portion of the game that we've spent years shifting CF away from an RP-lite version of Doom into a game where PK is still very central, but RP is the truly the central point. It's definitely a paradigm shift for a lot of the killer sort of players we often attract.

>Anyway I'm sorry I pissed you guys off, wasn't my intention.

I always respect someone able to come out with an apology, but I'm a little baffled on how you thought releasing an Immortal-only helpfile wouldn't be upsetting.

Not sure what you are talking about here as I've never noticed anything about a lightning spear being deleted?

However, if it was an area explore item I could see why it would be?

That's because it often gets deleted.

It's not an area explore item, it's a reference to the pitchfork of black lightning. I think the old joke was you could always tell Torak was playing an AP because he would have it and few other people knew where he got it from.

For some reason people didn't want the origin becoming common knowledge, though I think everyone who would care to know does. It's not a game breaking weapon, pretty much only A-P's really use it because I think it helps with lightning control since the weapon is made of lightning.

I've no idea where it is from.

It's from fish people.

NT

I don't consider it worth the effort. I'd rather use titanium spear and have the healing so I can spend more time hunting.

Getting the pitchfork solo was fairly tough even for tsalantha at her most charged.

Any bard can get it solo easily for example.

Since it was an edge that did that

I mean FFS, we have people deleting responses talking about where weapons are. Weapons that aren't in an area explore, aren't questy, aren't unique with insane progs if you have Baer's tat, etc.

We've basically created a culture (and it's only like 70 of us these days too) where we have players afraid to speak in public about anything.

That's ####ing terrible. I don't know what the fix is.

My experience as a newb over the last couple weeks is that this culture is more likely to make me abandon trying to learn CF, as opposed to any drama/size issues with the pbase (count is a big lure actually), or any code changes.

For example, I saw a post on the other site where someone was called one of the most generous players ever for describing a way to skill up defenses efficiently. On other MUDs I've played this is in the new player guide!

>My experience as a newb over the last couple weeks is that
>this culture is more likely to make me abandon trying to learn
>CF, as opposed to any drama/size issues with the pbase (count
>is a big lure actually), or any code changes.
>
>For example, I saw a post on the other site where someone was
>called one of the most generous players ever for describing a
>way to skill up defenses efficiently. On other MUDs I've
>played this is in the new player guide!
>
>
>
I fully agree with this guy. I've been here a year now, the mud I came from was in it's death throes 3-4 people on at one ever.. I came here because the first time I logged in there were 20+ people. But learning mechanical specifics, which IMHO are absolutely essential to really thriving in a PK environment, took a LONG time, and it was painful and frustrating :) Some of that is good... but the level of secrecy about things, and how to train your skills, etc was ridiculous. I believe quest info should be kept secret, and only shared IC in game. But how the game works, should be common knowledge published, and digestable in a wiki of some sort. I will say I was able to find a lot of FAQ on here, and on QHCF/Dios - which were great at explaining lag mechanics and such, infinitely useful. That post on training help recently on QHCF was literally game changing for me.

>>My experience as a newb over the last couple weeks is that
>>this culture is more likely to make me abandon trying to
>learn CF, as opposed to any drama/size issues with the pbase (count
>>is a big lure actually), or any code changes.
>>
>>For example, I saw a post on the other site where someone was
>>called one of the most generous players ever for describing a
>>way to skill up defenses efficiently. On other MUDs I've
>>played this is in the new player guide!
>>
>>
>>
>I fully agree with this guy. I've been here a year now, the
>mud I came from was in it's death throes 3-4 people on at one
>ever.. I came here because the first time I logged in there
>were 20+ people. But learning mechanical specifics, which
>IMHO are absolutely essential to really thriving in a PK
>environment, took a LONG time, and it was painful and
>frustrating :) Some of that is good... but the level of
>secrecy about things, and how to train your skills, etc was
>ridiculous. I believe quest info should be kept secret, and
>only shared IC in game. But how the game works, should be
>common knowledge published, and digestable in a wiki of some
>sort. I will say I was able to find a lot of FAQ on here, and
>on QHCF/Dios - which were great at explaining lag mechanics
>and such, infinitely useful. That post on training help
>recently on QHCF was literally game changing for me.
>
>
Thank you guys for taking time to share your opinion. As newcomers I think your point of view are really important to help improving player base (PB) numbers.

Hope everyone, especially Imms and Imps, will consider it.

I agree Immortal-only files should not be accessible to non-Immortals.

I just wanted to stress out that the culture of hiding game mechanics (ex: exact number of rounds lag a skill does) is ridicule and not fun at all for newbies and average players who try to get better at this game.