1) Qhcf fellows've been discussing the idea to combine Tribunals and Imperials. Like to make the 5-th sect with tribunals powers. And with less peoples online that idea make some sense. What do you think?

2) Liches for necromansers, quest forms for shapeshifters, more affinites for invokers, quest servitors for conjurers. But nothing for transmuters? Or am I wrong?

>1) Qhcf fellows've been discussing the idea to combine
>Tribunals and Imperials. Like to make the 5-th sect with
>tribunals powers. And with less peoples online that idea make
>some sense. What do you think?

I hate this idea and I don't think it makes nearly as much sense IC as some (most?) people do. So you probably won't ever see me take us in that direction, which isn't to say it would never happen. Sorry.

>2) Liches for necromansers, quest forms for shapeshifters,
>more affinites for invokers, quest servitors for conjurers.
>But nothing for transmuters? Or am I wrong?

Because so far no coders have arrived at the intersection of good ideas and the desire to implement them. It's not that we deliberately decided that transmuters shouldn't have something along those lines, it's simply that nobody has made a project out of that yet. That said, we have plenty of ways of rewarding mages in general.

agree that we need less cabals? with less players online?

1) It will bring more dinamic/fun to all, yep? I know, its hard to break things that some imms were deploing for years, but dudes, we need it.

2) Exp/Obs exp is good when it comes with the level.

>agree that we need less cabals? with less players online?
>
>1) It will bring more dinamic/fun to all, yep? I know, its
>hard to break things that some imms were deploing for years,
>but dudes, we need it.

I don't think CF needs fewer cabals, but I'm not opposed. What I'm not interested in is shoehorn solutions, half measures, etc. I think the cabals we have are high quality both in terms of their dogma and design, even if not all of them are always full. If/when we come up with ideas we like more than the status quo and someone has the time/desire to code them, then we'll see.

>2) Exp/Obs exp is good when it comes with the level.

I don't know what this means, exactly. Anyway, my preference would be to just get rid of EXP/OXP (giving no ####s about the impact on edges), but our PR firm has advised me against that in the strongest possible language. Sometimes I wonder what we're paying them for.

>I don't know what this means, exactly. Anyway, my preference
>would be to just get rid of EXP/OXP (giving no ####s about the
>impact on edges), but our PR firm has advised me against that
>in the strongest possible language. Sometimes I wonder what
>we're paying them for.

If it makes you feel any better, I'd be all for this. I like edges, but not as much as I hate scripting exploration and observation.

I really...really...REALLY hate lowbie moves and being stuck resting or bartering for refreshes or paying for refreshes or wearing #### gear that has +10%mv regen.

I've been meaning to do some statistical analysis to see if MV gains are based on con or dex or what and if regen of hp/mana/move is a function of the total amount (I'm pretty sure it is) or just a flat regain... Like if I have 500 mv do I recover more per tick than if I have 50 (all other things being equal)... My gut says yes, but I'm not 100% sure.

So you could conceivably fix lowbie moves by making it a function of dex/con whatever instead of % of total... Would also make move matter more at Hero potentially.

So you don't have a say in this.

>If it makes you feel any better, I'd be all for this. I like
>edges, but not as much as I hate scripting exploration and
>observation.

I'd go one step further. All edges should be removed from the game. I hate that people butter up to the Imms in order to milk EPs.

Explore and observe is an interesting way of encouraging exploration the first time you do it. After that it's just a chore, which you're vaguely obligated to go through with every future character. There's probably no single, small change that would make me want to play more than just removing it entirely.

>Sometimes I wonder what we're paying them for

At least they're holding their side of the bargain for the money WE're paying them.

>>2) Exp/Obs exp is good when it comes with the level.
>
>I don't know what this means, exactly. Anyway, my preference
>would be to just get rid of EXP/OXP (giving no ####s about the
>impact on edges), but our PR firm has advised me against that
>in the strongest possible language. Sometimes I wonder what
>we're paying them for.
>

If PR firm stand for Public Relation firm, I would suggest you to trust people really involved in a situation (here CF players) over people who claim to be "experts". I'd be really curious to see if your PR firm can bring strong arguments to keep OXP/EXP or if all they have to offer is a "professional advice" coming from their supposed "expertise".... I never tought about the question but I see some players have really good insights/arguments for dropping ExplorationXP and ObservationXP. I especially like what ibuki brought up:

"Explore and observe is an interesting way of encouraging exploration the first time you do it. After that it's just a chore, which you're vaguely obligated to go through with every future character. There's probably no single, small change that would make me want to play more than just removing it entirely."


And if you want to keep edges, you could allow a certain amount of EdgesXP per level (with maybe a little extra for roles?) so people could still pick edges to customize their character.

And before following more of your actual PR experts advices, maybe you should ask them to explain you again why they're unable to stop CF numbers going down...? I'm sure you're doing your very best to keep the game up and interesting, so please don't take this as a personnal critic. My point here is just to remind you that it's not a bad idea to consider players point of view, especially when they take time to elaborate their ideas.

Thanks again for the time you put to keep this game up and runing!

You may be taking his words too literally. I suspect there's no pr firm lol. More like a couple imms who sit in on change discussion.

>You may be taking his words too literally. I suspect there's
>no pr firm lol. More like a couple imms who sit in on change
>discussion.

But he seems too busy to put more time in this thread...

Not meaning to slurp on some immortal nutsack too hard, but I haven't played many muds over the years where the imms were as engaged as this group and if they don't always give an answer you like that is part of the deal :P.

why you should never drop obs/exp even if there are voices for it.

I would almost rather see it replaced with physical items in those locations that disappear when they are grabbed, visibly giving you the bonus. What I feel is lacking about the obs/explore experience system is that it is not exciting to find a explore point or get observation exp because it is all done in the background. The disadvantage of making the change is it would make it much easier to automate because the locations would be visible.

It would take a lot of effort and time on the part of the imms though and I'm not sure it is worth that effort.

Sounds like a really cool idea; it's already easy to automate for people in the know and not sure there's anything terribly wrong with that.

Definitely also sounds like a lot of work.

Make those exploration points random like egg-hunting. Like when I roll a character (or enter an area), exploration points are generated randomly and in that case may be allowed to be visible, and you may even get a morale boost when you find one so that you are incentivized to find a point or two in-between ranking or skill spamming.

This way we'll have our internal Pokemon Go which may be quite fun.

P.S. Yeah I understand memory-related issues that may be created by this. Part of the code is already there - it's egg-hunting and wands.

People don't like doing the obs/exp grind as it is. And that is when they already know how to do it and find every point. The big gripe is that repeat "exploration" of a place you already know isn't enjoyable.

This system would probably force people to go back through and look at every nook and cranny, check mobs and their belongings etc in order to get the same amount of obs/exp that current exists.

And *if* they just so happen to not find the one magic item/spot/whatever then all of the work they just did literally would be for nothing with that particular character.

At least with the current imperfect system, peoples "effort" is guaranteed to be rewarded.

Why not adjust it to give points ONLY for boss type unique mobs in areas.... (as I've been saying for years)...

That way it isn't wasting hour upon hour looking at every thing in every room... but at the same time it would make people look at all kinds of things in the area to figure out how to get to the "boss" of that area the first time they go through it. Especially awesome if there are hidden keys or paths to get to said area boss. Pick out a few areas that meet your criteria and just remove all obs/exp for everything but the boss.

Tier it out for the different important areas at important levels, might take a bit of brainstorming to identify which areas for which bosses but should be easy to impliment and meet everyone's needs.

then most likely you know where the other exploration spots are in that area as well. Will make grinding a bit faster for vets, will change nothing for newbs.

Edit: Or will even make things harder for newbs, as Dest pointed out, yeah.

The current system rewards you (most of the time) for finding said hidden keys and paths on your way to said "boss". So even if you don't find the "boss" of an area, you can still gain some of the obs/exp xp from the zone. In your system it would again be an all or nothing where there is the possibility of spending a bunch of time and getting nothing if you miss the 1 and only thing that gives the perk for the whole area.

A valid argument if there are one or two rewards in the while mud... there are tons of areas in every rank range with unique bosses. Scale the reward points according to difficulty at each rank where some are basically walk to mobs and some are fight through the area mobs.

I don't see a drawback compared to the current system.

People do seem to like egg hunting though.

The idea was to reduce the min/maxing behavior and bring some sort of fun in it.

P.S. Granted I'm a minmaxer myself and I like the system as it is. Gives me advantage over those who don't do "chores", including skill spamming and certain other timesink activities.

... trying to get rid of OXP/EXP system for a few months to see how it affect player base/enjoyment of the game?

From what I read on this thread, the majority of players tend to agree that the OXP/EXP system is problematic or, as I do, pretty boring. I don't know how coding works but I suspect the less complicated solution would be to simply get rid of the OXP/EXP and, after a while, put it back up like it was if poeple really beg for its return.

Still really curious about the reasons the very quiet "PR firm" and Imms have to keep this system...?

Meh it's not the best but it drives character engagement (i.e. I don't wanna delete my current because I've grinded a bunch of it out already) and it rewards you with edge points and moves both of which are pretty nice to have... I would be sad to see it go because I like having the perks you get for doing it, and would probably be sad to see people get those things for free as some have asked for because of the engagement aspect.

... that you don't get bored revisiting the same room again and again each time you start a new character?

I'm really not sure the perks you get from OXP/EXP generate more "engagement": I doubt CF numbers would go up even if you would get more perks from this tedious aspect of the game. Personnaly I think it's just boring and a waste of time. And since this game is already so much time consuming, I think getting rid of OXP/EXP has a lot more potential to bring people back than any of the other suggestion mentioned in this thread. But that's just me... maybe you (and others?) like doing the same thing over and over.

It's a way to get good XP to rank up when things are quiet. Getting EP on top is a much needed bonus. It's certainly no more boring a way to get XP than killing x number of mobs.

Anyone that MUDs likes doing the same thing over and over.

Why would you want to remove this XP source from the game? It would make ranking MORE time consuming.

This form of XP gathering is totally optional. If you choose to get bored doing it then that is on you.

I agree with this

>It's a way to get good XP to rank up when things are quiet.
>Getting EP on top is a much needed bonus. It's certainly no
>more boring a way to get XP than killing x number of mobs.

I'm not sure we can qualify the XP you gain from observation as "good" but I agree it's no more boring than killing x mobs.


>Anyone that MUDs likes doing the same thing over and over.

I totally disagree with that statement.


>Why would you want to remove this XP source from the game? It
>would make ranking MORE time consuming.
>This form of XP gathering is totally optional. If you choose
>to get bored doing it then that is on you.

Good point and I realize that it's probably not a good idea to remove the XP source coming from observation. But I definetely would get rid of the Edge points because feeling competitive in PK is, for me, a big part of the fun I get from this game. But the tought of having to look and do the same thing over and over to get some edges in order to be competitive in PK just bored me to the highest point.

I'm giving a shot at a character who will not get bored trying to get edges and honestly, if I feel I can't have my share of PK win without edges, it certainly will be a motivation for me to give a shot at another mud.

>I'm giving a shot at a character who will not get bored trying to get edges and honestly, if I feel I can't have my share of PK win without edges, it certainly will be a motivation for me to give a shot at another mud.

If you think edges, or a lack of, are the only reason you either can or cannot pk then you are doing something wrong.

On Observation/Exploration XP:

I regularly use observation and exploration to gain levels when there are none to group with. I usually do this when I'm one or two levels away from a key ability and have no one to group with for normal leveling. I can usually get 2 levels from observation/exploration, and another 2 - 3 levels from automated quests that I held in reserve for just such occasions.


On Edge Points:

I absolutely LOVE edge points and the ability to customize my characters, so that each character I play is different that the last character I played, even if the current character and last character are the same race/class/cabal/alignment. Having the ability to make each character totally unique like that is a big draw for me. My absolutely favorite class in the whole game is thief because of how versatile they are. My second favorite class is shapeshifter because the form selection keeps every character different. Third favorite is conjurer for totally different reasons unrelated to versatility, but right on the heels of conjurer is warrior, again, because of the versatility of weapon specs + legacies.

Having said that, all of my most successful PK characters have been very Edge Point deficient. The reason for this is simple. When I'm playing a heavy PK character, rather than spending my time "grinding out exploration" as some keep describing it, I'm spending my time PK'ing instead. The only characters I play that get lots of edge points from observation and exploration are characters that don't do much PK anyway.


In short:
Removing Obs/Explore XP = BAD
Removing Obs/Exp Edge Points = BAD
Cookie Cutter boxed set of Allies/Enemies = BAD
More Options for customization = GOOD
More diverse set of Allies/Enemies
to join with/pit thyself against = GOOD

>Cookie Cutter boxed set of Allies/Enemies = BAD
>More Options for customization = GOOD
>More diverse set of Allies/Enemies
>to join with/pit thyself against = GOOD
>

This also holds true re: empire/tribunal debate.

>On Edge Points:
>
>I absolutely LOVE edge points and the ability to customize my
>characters, so that each character I play is different that
>the last character I played, even if the current character and
>last character are the same race/class/cabal/alignment.

So much this. I have found myself building characters around edges so that you have two same class/race/cabal combos which are to be played in a significantly different manner. The classes that allow this are few, but this option is incredibly awesome.

...explain nothing.

Maybe I'm wrong but from what I read from you, I feel you have a kind of pattern: you seem to believe that what you think is so obvious that you don't need to explain why you say the little things you do.

Care to develop your ideas? because for me, right now, your comments are simply boring.

I'm gonna call Murphy on this.

It could save lives

You don't play, and I need those edge points to feel cozy and soft and whack people.

It doesn't

the fact that you've lost the brexit vote is but an isolated situation :)

It was the right thing though

>>1) Qhcf fellows've been discussing the idea to combine
>>Tribunals and Imperials. Like to make the 5-th sect with
>>tribunals powers. And with less peoples online that idea
>makesome sense. What do you think?


>I hate this idea and I don't think it makes nearly as much
>sense IC as some (most?) people do. So you probably won't
>ever see me take us in that direction, which isn't to say it
>would never happen. Sorry.


Would be interesting to have a bit more developpement than "I hate this idea and I don't think it makes sense IC"...

Honestly from my point of view it make perfect sense: they are both orderly cabals, it's an opportunity to get rid of a cabal (so more people in remaining ones), I'd love to see what neutral or good Emperor (I'd call them Chancelor since it would be the result of an election) would do and it would also mean probably more "protection" in cities. Tribs could be a kind of 5th sect we could call "The Watch"; an entity responsible of the keeping the cities safe and be the fifth voice to elect the Emperor/Chancelor.

I've been thinking as Beront for years and I think the arguments you use to defend your point of view are actually very poor...

Persomally, I think it's horrible because you're intentionally asking for OE (aka corrupt) police. You seriously WANT the guy who uses law for HIS end protecting you? Tribunal itself naturally leans slightly good. If anything, I'd feel like it makes more sense to have the Tribunal straight up collapse, Empire just tells it's underlings that the putz Citizens have to do the grunt protection work, and Fortress sees this and decides that THEY need to step in to protect the people (possibly city by city "law"). Effectively, it merges with Fort through a roundabout means.

As an aside, do you REALLY want to make it so the people who go crazy and warrant the entire MUD now have the ability to get those powers through automated recruiter Bloodbath + automated donations promotion ?

Tribunal isn't exactly a powerhouse on their best days. They don't really provide in town protection since A) People don't hang out in town like the once did and B) They don't have enough coverage due to low playerbase to make a real difference.

I'd argue A is actually a bigger detriment to the game (remember auctions!?!) but the newbie/orderly/town aspect has been mostly a failure since they lost global coverage and powers, at least IMHO.

As for someone flagging the entire MUD... well since that gets handled in an OOC fashion (character denied, flags undone, etc) why not just prevent placing more than some number of flags in a short period? I imagine if you have flag data you could probably find the most flags placed in an hour number and put it slightly above that.

All that said, I don't really think Empire and Tribunal combining is the best idea ever, but I do think *something* should be done with Tribunal.

NT

>Persomally, I think it's horrible because you're
>intentionally asking for OE (aka corrupt) police. You
>seriously WANT the guy who uses law for HIS end protecting
>you? Tribunal itself naturally leans slightly good. If
>anything, I'd feel like it makes more sense to have the
>Tribunal straight up collapse, Empire just tells it's
>underlings that the putz Citizens have to do the grunt
>protection work, and Fortress sees this and decides that THEY
>need to step in to protect the people (possibly city by city
>"law"). Effectively, it merges with Fort through a roundabout
>means.
>
>As an aside, do you REALLY want to make it so the people who
>go crazy and warrant the entire MUD now have the ability to
>get those powers through automated recruiter Bloodbath +
>automated donations promotion ?


I don't know why you think I'm asking for Orderly Evil police. Probably because I wasn't clear enough in describing my idea. Remember I said I'd love to see what a Orderly Good (OG) or Orderly Neutral (ON) Emperor would do? When I think of merging the two cabals, I'm also thinking of opening Empire to OG an NG. The lost of the specific evil side of Empire would not be that bad: I think Scarabs are enough as evil cabal. I never got why there's two evil cabals and only one, Fortress, typically good...

Concerning your second issue (automated power given), it is not my experience as Shadow in Empire to be automaticaly promoted through donations. Somebody had to promote me but maybe this changed since last time I played an Imperial.

Also I think that city-by-city law deserves some thought. Like Dagdan+Tir-Talath+Voralian vs Hamsah-Arkham-Seantryn or something.

I don't play anymore so no dog in this race....

That said...I suggested a similar idea years ago and am surprised at the consistent resistance to shrinking the number of cabals in logical ways that would actually create a number of RP opportunities to exploit.

You can (if so desiring) search for the post I did but the gist was giving some protected cities to Empire and some to the Fortress. This way you would have actual territories with a treaty between the two enforcing peace and order within those protected cities.

As for the last concern, that is what demotions and Anathema is for. Empire should be directly taking over cities because its an EMPIRE. And as you pointed out Fort should see this and step in to protect the people in those cities not controlled by the Empire.

Have a side for fort for lawkeeping, and a side for Empire for lawkeeping. Perhaps something along the lines of cabal wars being a bit more meaningful. Fort is stronger, they have magistrates in more cities, Empire is stronger, they have magistrates in more cities. I know this requires alot of coding, especially for magistrates and always switching cities, but I suppose you could give them all 'provincial' rights, in a sense, in that a 'fort magistrate' protects the cities currently under their protection? and vice versa for empire? Just throwing out an idea, I haven't completely thought it through yet, or at all, really. But hey, now it's out there, do with it what you will.

Might also bring a bit more action among nexus, as the two cabals fight over control of the cities, shifting the balance quicker, maybe?

I actually have been thinking ideas up along these lines too. Having Empire/Fort both dissolve tribunal, and involving cities in cabal wars. Empire would have Hamsah to police, and Fort would have Voralian. Possibly with the other cities capable of switching to the control of whichever faction is in power. Fort becomming a Monarchy and Empire a... empire. Meh, suppose would require a bit more in depth thought than that, but as it stand now, I think Jormyr is onto something, in that Tribunal has always seemed like to me it should lean neutral/good in align, and Empire evil obviously. Having evil vindicators and magistrates working alongside goodies just seems difficult to roleplay.

NT

The imm of that sect/cabal - should be evil as well. I mean, he should constantly give task - "That fellow magistrate should die - he knows too much, bring me 100 gold coins or I'll fire you, bring me that item or I'll fire you, etc" That should be fun as hell.

PS: For those who missed "It is the police" pc game. Try to play it and you'll get what I mean.