First, I'm having a lot of fun right now in the game and thats something. Don't listen to them. Just keep doing what you do, Imms. If your changes keep those like beront away, keep doing it.

Just an idea or two about bringing back pk edges. I don't know how to code so I've no idea how difficult these would be.

1. Bring pk edges back once you're character can harm those at hero.
(I'm talking about when your human shapeshifter can harm an elf paladin) this might bring back a lot to get hero pk going again and you'd have a lot of fighting.

2. If you gang someone down then you would get much less. If you are always ganging someone down then maybe none. Imms watch us so you know how good that character is at pk, so maybe base edge points off of that.

3. Risk reward for a dangerous retrieval or taking of an item. Fortress has the empires item and they call in whoever to defend. Paladin follows the one around who's defending and heals them, or a healer follows them and puts sanctuary around the defender. Bard songs on defender. That's more dangerous for the one getting item back, so maybe a bump in PK based edge points.

These are based on what you, the Imms see. Are they always grouped and going after someone? Do they usually pk alone? Are they always asking for the help of others? Just ideas but might help the rolling of new characters that aren't based solely on looking at all things. This would also stop the low level level sitters because they might want edges and not just pks. No edges for pk seems to be the biggest gripe these days.

But that would be a bad thing, for me.

And they aren't going to magically come back just because Umiron is on a sabbatical.

In fairness his solutions prevent cheap pk farming, or could easily be changed to.

Encouraging pk risk is a good thing and worthy of reward.

>And they aren't going to magically come back just because
>Umiron is on a sabbatical.


Players just don't fight like they use to. youve got two leaders of a cabal that just don't fight at all. I've had three characters in the time they've been alive, and I've never seen them fight. Couple of them barely woke when they didn't have there item. The game has turned from one on one, to whatever it is certain cabals do when other members log on. Won't fight at all, and cannot drag them to a fight unless there are others awake to help or gang down that one person who fights alone.

Edge points changed the game. You now take edge points away for whatever reason and in the place of pk you've added observation as the main way of getting edge points.
Why should I, the outnumbered come to defend or get my item back when there's no incentive other than losing armor. Personally, I'm going to come defend or retrieve, but even then I know that's stupid because I will die. Watch those outnumbered and throw them a bone then.

Imm exp was suppose to help, but with all the bandwagon jumpers to the fortress because aarn is visible, there's no Imm exp for the rest of us.

There's quite a bit of people playing now that will not pk unless they have everything in there advantage. I'm always going to pk, but something to make all this risk worth it would help or make me want to continue to do so.

I'm still having fun though.

.

That is independant of EP for PK though. Risk averse players will continue to be even if there is a carrot for them to engage. The big difference is that those people who only fight when its stacked 100% in their favor will end up being rewarded for it on their pk wins whereas a player like you (based on your commentary) will be in the same boat if not further behind because the people who are killing you are getting stronger for it.

But the carrot will definitely lower risk threshold for risk averse players. Otherwise we'd have to agree that incentives don't work which is definitely not true (at least we grind obs/exp even if we do not enjoy it). It even made me create less characters that I originally tended to (and I guess this is the main objective of obs/exp incentive).

Well, mostly.

I still get upset because players are risk averse, but that's more a function of our current playerbase than the actual game mechanics.

NT

NO TEXT FTW!

Do people really need automatic edge points to want to PK? Same with the similar thread about cabal raiding.

Seems a bit like bribing my kid to eat candy.

Some of us are so desperately afraid to die that they certainly need some incentives to go and risk their bottom.

I've played the game for close to 15 years, all my chars have been roleplayed
(some better than others), and I think in-game I've been a model player for that entire
period (one char at a time, long-played characters, most of them cabaled
heroes and a few cabal leaders).

I never hid the fact that I see no enjoyment whatsoever in observation and exploration,
and that the aspect of the game I enjoy most is PK (with enforced RP). With PK no longer
contributing to edge points, I think of the tedium I'd have to go through to replace
what I used to get from simply doing what I enjoyed and can no longer find the courage
to login.

Of course none of that would matter if edges were simply 'flair', but (for the vast
majority of classes I like to play) they're affecting gameplay to a substantial
degree, opening up tactics and in some cases, completely changing the
way a class feels and plays, which is *great*. What's not great is that these
gameplay elements that in many cases are directly tied to PK can not be
obtained from PK.

I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that feels like this.

nt

It wasn't /just/ that with me - a few other factors came into play as well but I won't detract from this by listing them here. These days I mostly play the RPI/PK MUD that I came from and sort of use CF as just comic relief when I need a little break from the 'seriousness' of a RP MUD.

and probably for others, is that PK edges contributed to making the game
*more addictive*. I felt as if my character grew and became more powerful
PK-wise (kinda like a pale imitation of what an AP player feels) and that gave me an incentive to not only play more, but engage in more PK situations, take risks, try to become a better PKer and so on.

Since I played the game mostly *for PK*, this constituted a powerful *feedback loop* PK->edges->PK.. that kept me going for years . *It never got boring or stale*.

On the other hand, farming observation XP had me reaching for the barf bag after the 2nd time I tried to do it and exploration for edge sake wasn't far behind.

CF started as a RP-enforced PK-focused MUD. This is what brought the passionate players and the longevity, what made the game. Unfortunately somewhere down the line the PK focus has been diluted with more and more tedium. There is no better game in existence than CF in its golden years I feel, it's just too bad that the current incarnation has deteriorated to such an extent.

In the early years RP wasn't enforced or even widespread. It was a PK mud and that's why people played it. Full-loot was typical but you could regear from someone elses corpse within 5 min in the city, so there was a balance.

Wasn't the first rule of Knight's that you must RP? That tells you something about the other cabals at the time.

"I wish more people had listened to me when I said the edge system "broke" CF"...

I totally get wanting Pk rewards; however, if you look at any competitive game out there they handle balance in a few different ways.

1) They balance through unbalance, as you kill people you get stronger, as you get stronger you kill more people until the match ends. This works well for games like shooters where you are on a time limit and each game resets after a short period of time (10-20mins). Which is not how CF works right now. I'm not opposed to some sort of system like this for a short term after you kill someone. It would be a little exciting.

2) They avoid giving any PK related rewards for pking, this is to prevent from really skilled players having an edge over others. Cosmetic rewards are generally built into high PK in these instances. This is probably about the most fair situation that could be set.

3) They give long term rewards to players so that they hit a maximum level of reward. But generally how they balance this is they prevent lower rewarded players from fighting higher rewarded players. Eventually everyone ends up in the same bracket with access to the same abilities. Edges being a long term reward means this was the case with PK previously. However, there were no brackets of reward to restrict PK between those that were rewarded a lot and those who were barely rewarded.

Personally I think the solution is to remove OBS/Explore edges and have them only rewarded for roleplaying. Not only from Imms giving Imm exp, but also through a peer review system probably handed to immortals through the cabal leaders. It is a solution, though a make-shift one. Let me know what you all think, and lets have a constructive conversation on how to improve it in ways that you all would like.

***Edit: I just want to remind you, I'm not promising any sort of change, as I'm not a coder. However, having the conversation and understanding what you see as the problem helps all of us make decisions about the game.

>Personally I think the solution is to remove OBS/Explore edges
>and have them only rewarded for roleplaying. Not only from
>Imms giving Imm exp, but also through a peer review system
>probably handed to immortals through the cabal leaders. It is
>a solution, though a make-shift one. Let me know what you all
>think, and lets have a constructive conversation on how to
>improve it in ways that you all would like.

This is the worst thing you can do, because this will leave not english native speakers outside. We already have no immexp, and you want to make us to have no edges either? I'll surely stop playing (without returning) if we'll have such unfair disadvantage, and I'm pretty sure other non-native players will do the same. If it's the goal of recent changes, to narrow the playerbase even further, it's a good way to do it.

So to counter balance this point. You had a decent amount of obs and exploration exp with your last character. But no IMM exp.

You had a decent amount of edges, 9 or so.

Some but not all of those came from observation and explore experience. You get some from hitting level 51 etc. So lets say that 5 of those were from obs and explore (I have no idea). Anyone can spend the time to get observation and explore experience. Are you saying that you'd rather spend that time getting obs and explore experience to get edges rather than having it built into the leveling system?

Lets face it, people like having edges to customize their characters. That is a good thing, I just do not feel like obs and explore grinding is the best way to do that. Maybe you enjoy that, but I sure don't.

I could not agree more re:Obs/Exp. Get rid of them *IF* you first implement a way to replace the edge points (and then some imho) they gave. The problem with this is that every time ways to get edge points are reduced, nothing replaces them. Long ago I heard IMM Exp was going to offset the Ep reduction after the limits for Obs/Exp were reduced and EP for them lowered. It did not happen and in fact, there seems to be less IMM ex now then ever. IMM play time and numbers is going down. Player numbers is going down. Please find a way to get edge points that do not rely on other people being online and is not mind-nubmingly boring. Easy. ;)

I'm not sure where you got your information as far as that imm exp was supposed to replace that which was lost. With the amount of edges that could be attained through Obs/explore/pk/other avenues, people were getting a very large number of edges. Including some of my mortals before I Immed. The point is, when you are actually running out of edges to choose from that is a problem (yes, a problem) caused by two things.
1) You have too many edge points.
2) Edges do not cost enough.

If you have every single edge available to your class, that defeats the purpose of having to choose between them. Even if it feels awesome to have them all.

Now if you have other ideas of how to make getting edges "not mind-numbingly boring", I'm all ears.

While edges are cool and we all like having them ( I do really like the feeling of getting the new edge and contemplating on how my character became stronger and I can utilize that in battles), the general idea of all complaints for PK edge points is not "we don't have enough edge points", it's "people should be incentivized to PK".

I personally have no problems with Heralds, although I do my best to PK them on occasion, what frustrates me to some extent is people in other cabals who actively avoid PK. I get it that in the past people who did not engage in PK actively were just booted from cabals for cowardice or whatever, but with lower numbers we have less mortal/immortal supervision so people are rarely, if ever, booted for that reason. So it's not about "we PKers don't have edges", it's "let's create more strife so that there's more action". If we can incentivize action through some other means other than edges - I'd be totally fine with that as well, but I can't come up with a way currently.

When discussion comes to "oh we PKers don't have edge points so we can't compete with roleplayers" - that's sort of BS, because PK-oriented players kick ass without edges no problem, and they sure kick roleplayers around with their hands tied behind their back, no less without edges.

OBS/EXP are fine for PKers as well, because we just grind them as a must prerequisite for the builds we want. Sure it's boring, but I don't think there're serial PKers over there who don't do 5k/10k routine. It's just a hygiene thing you do along with mastering skills.

P.S. Leaving edge points to ImmExp only would definitely make it unfair though, simply because there is a considerable amount of players who are not into immteraction. Stripping them of edges totally would be a wrong thing to do, I think.

So, there are a few things in here.

1) People who actively avoid pk might just be actively avoiding you for pk due to a bad match-up. That is totally legit, if slightly frustrating for you. No reason to rush directly into your death when you stand 0 chance, even if you as a player feel otherwise. Now, if they are running away from EVERYONE, that is entirely different though it could be for a similar reason. Like they are bad at pk.

2) I agree with you about the PKers not needing additional edge points in general. Except against other pkers, to give them an edge ;)

3) I'm not for only immexp edge points. However, that is the ideal way of adding incentive to roleplay. I have open ears for more ways for people to earn edges that are fun that all players can do.

It would be really, really fun to give edges ONLY for PK for 6 months. And see how it would go. I bet there would be a lot of strife, and people probably wouldn't cry/whine, knowing that it's only for 6 months. I'd do it if I'd be the boss.

people would shoot themselves in the face massively :)

No offense, but you're inferior only to T1000.

I want edges so I waste my time for explore/observe that I dislike. I'd prefer to gather them from PK, that you have removed already. Now, you'll remove the last source of edge points for non-native people and leave no ways for us to compete with favorites like Gaspare, who got freaking tonns of immexp just because he is able to talk/emote better than we'll ever be. Not because we are lazy, or don't like to RP, but because we simply can't do it on the same level.

Yes, my last have 41-43k of observe, not because I've been grinding it, but because I traveled a lot with him. I'm not sure I want to do it with my next characters over and over again, I would surely enjoy more getting edges for RP/PK. But this WILL NOT happen, because there IS favoritism/unfavoritism. Players who will fall from grace, like myself, with the system when immortals decide who shall get edges, will have zero chances to make a build (and for my characters, those edges are essential, without them build simply won't work).

We had a long long bad story of favoritism in CF (hi to Bria/Nep and some others who left). That was a really ####ty situation, and it still may happen. Legalizing it won't do any good to CF, trust me.

If you want the fair game, give players some free edges (5) that they may pick on different levels, and make some cabal-related, (little) for explore/observe and you'll have the balanced, fair system. I don't understand why edges is so precious and why it's that important to limit players from getting them. Currently, veterans still may have 9-10 edges, pros in favor will still have 15, while general playerbase will have 5.

CF has never been a game of fair, its been a game where we strive for balance of mechanics and reward people for effort. Some people invest the effort into RP, others into immertaction for tattoos, some people invest hours into prep gathering, some grind skills at random levels along the way, other people min/max their obs/exp for the extra EP.

Fwiw, you aren't stuck in some little box where you get nothing because of who you are. Its cause your characters aren't nearly as interesting as you think they are. Its something a lot of our players suffer from, not just you.

>Fwiw, you aren't stuck in some little box where you get
>nothing because of who you are. Its cause your characters
>aren't nearly as interesting as you think they are. Its
>something a lot of our players suffer from, not just you.

I don't argue here and I'm positive that's the reason of 0 immexp in 1k+ hours of playtime, all total. What I say, that with the proposed system of edges, players like me (average, I'm not terribly suck at RP or interaction too) won't have edges, and people like Gaspare will get all the candies. Will I want to play the game, knowing that I'll play with a strong penalty and now won't have any way to compete against favorites? Nah, I'll get back to LoL, where everyone have the equal chances and where it's only a matter of player's commitment, not relayed to someone who might like or dislike you. I'm not saying you dislike me because you're an ass - that's not true, but I dare to say that I'm being disliked due to my inability to express all my character's sides/etc due to my own language barriers. So, maybe english-language MUDs is a bad idea for me, in general. I'll have to think about it, and likely I'm just being an idiot wasting my time on something that I won't ever be able to do good enough.

ADD: And here we are back to PK edges. When there were about, I knew that I suck at RP, and can't ever compete with Gaspare-like guys, but at least I can do something in other aspects of the game. But now CF becomes RP-only MUD, where I likely won't have a niche to fit. This makes me sad.

1) Don't make threads talking about how you are going to chain throw away characters because investing time into one isnt worth your time (see your mummy thread about %s and what not)

2) Don't rage delete in the 20s when you have established things like a role/cabal/character dynamics only to reroll the exact the same build because you want a pk ratio with 0 deaths. It handcuffs your ability to grow the character and express these RP quirks hooks that you put into your role.

3) Care less about a role and more about actual RP. You write up some better than average roles. You tend to not fulfill said roles in your actions though. This is a great example of why its a lame excuse to say ESL is why you can't rp well. If being ESL was THAT big of a detriment your roles would also suck.

CF is still very much a pk mud, and with the numbers you have put up in your last handful of chars, you would still be getting basically 0 EP for pk. Other people however would be getting them which would make it even more likely you would rage delete in the 20s from said first pk death. Especially because we would see tons of people level sitting and pking everything that moves in order to forsake RP and brutalize noobs so they can get those extra few EP (which was/is the primary reason EP for PK went to the wayside in the first place)

1) It's just some math. I'm not sure I like the second way, and Woland was a good investment of time and effort. I liked it, by the way.

2) My role burned down after to entering the rolecontest (it wasn't rated, and it disappeared fully after entering the contest). So I thought he wasn't noticed totally. To be honest, I went back to home from the birthday of my wife. There were plenty of alcohol, and did something ugly in game. But what the most important, I felt that something is wrong with that character (maybe luck, maybe something else - I just couldn't get into him, so I knew it would be better to start from scratch). Dying was the last nail on his coffin. Also, I have realized that there were TWO mistakes in his name/lastname, so I'd reroll anyways.

3) This is interesting and constructive. I'll try to figure out how to improve my RP. For now, each time when I'm going to emote, I have a thought "Oh, if I'll type this as an emote, and there wi;; be a grammar error, that will do more harm than good".

Anyways, thank you for the constructive criticism, I'll try to do as you suggest. Though when I lose interest in character due to some critical mistakes on my part, I have always rerolled and likely I'll be unable to play the other way... just my way to have fun.

Not that he needs that of course :)

Dragguul's role was VERY well written, so ESL is definitely not a problem. It had little link to the character himself, but that is another issue, language skill definitely does not seem to be a problem here.

I'll see how I'll be able to boost my RP, how to bring role from the paper to the game.

Long ago I did it rather well, but now I tried to do it, got zero attention and, probably, subconsciously I've stopped trying because I've seen nothing in return.

Sorry for pulling the thread to my persona, though. I'd still love to receive edge points for PK :P

Edges are good for the game, they provide variety and change the way classes play
and open up new tactics.

Having edge points tied to anything that requires IMM oversight would kill the game completely I feel (if we're not already there). The clear as day solution in terms of making CF more *FUN* is a more *hands off* approach. Let the game play out as a sandbox and let EMERGENT gameplay shine. It boggles the mind that this is not obvious to the IMM staff.

IMM involvement should be *RESTRICTED* to roleplay, cabal stuff and interactions.

Gameplay mechanics that are directly tied to PK (which I assume is what most people play CF for) and thus *ENJOYMENT*, should be *AUTOMATED* and operate *deterministically*.

For edges this is extremely simple: Give *EVERYONE* a fixed number of edge points at well defined intervals (at character creation, then every 5 or 10 levels). This is it. That's all you need to do.

EDIT:

If you say that this is already done to some extent, my answer will be to remove every other way of gaining edge points except the one I described. But what about people who explore you might say? What about excellent roleplayers? Surely they deserve rewards.

You have to decide. Given the degree that edges are tied to PK and tactics, I think the route to take is more than obvious. Explorers get a lot of benefits from exploring without needing edge points and roleplayers get titles and cabal leadership. Having a *deterministic* automated way to hand out the same number of edge points to everyone would go a long way towards fixing the tedium situation and get more people playing the game. Calculate that fixed number of edge points to be what you want it to be so that not every edge can be taken. This can even be tied to each race/class combination (rather than each generic player). Empower the players and let *them* choose how they want to build their characters, without having them jump through time-waste hoops.

So breakdown of your post.
1) Too much doom and gloom and condescending tone. I'm also not sure what you mean by hands off, or specifically what you want us to change by your post.

2) Also not sure what you mean by imm involvement should be restricted to roleplay, cabal stuff, and interactions. Because that is almost all of what we do... Save for game tweaks and rules enforcement. So your point is really lost without explanation.

3) Yeah, I get you like automated, but I don't think you understand that that enjoyment to you does not mean enjoyment to others or vice versa. If you want to be more specific, please let me know what you are talking about. Putting * around your words does not give them any more meaning.

4) Yes, we could give everyone a fixed number, that is one way to handle it. However, I'm looking for alternate ways that are fun. So I'm looking for ideas. That is the most obvious answer, but I'm also not a game balance expert by any means.

I don't have a horse in this race anymore but here are my thoughts:

1) People object to observation more than anything. They don't like LOOKING at descriptions etc. Whatever.

Remove Observation XP completely. Keep Exploration XP but give it a boost. So instead of: every 2,000 Exploration XP (max 40,000), make it every 1,000 (or 500) Exploration XP (max 40,000).

Remove all level based restrictions on gathering exploration XP.

2) Get rid of raiding related edge points altogether.

To compensate for this loss, add EPs at the predefined levels as others have stated.

3) Put a low limit on how much EP can be ImmXP farmed like you have for RoleXP.

But good luck with whatever approach you take. It's bound to make at least 50% of the playerbase unhappy.

Thank you for your feedback. I hope you decide to get a horse again at some point.

I was not aware that the issue with the edge system was balance related at all... I thought pk edges were removed because it resulted in ####ty player behavior. I thought points were made more scarce to inspire differentiation instead of everyone having everything.

I don't recall any rants about how a load of edges created specific game imbalances...


Personally I liked that there were a lot of ways to customize characters and the system inspired me to focus on things I otherwise would have ignored such as low rank explore and commerce.


I think that the system stressed playing all out in sub hero ranges and what you are presently throwing out there would be just more inspiration to skip straight to hero.


How can we flesh out more of the sub hero game... That would be a great conversation.

If you do want to talk about fleshing out the sub hero game, please make a new thread and summon your ideas! :)

As far as the rest of what you said, everything in the end is a game balance issue. However, if you have everyone affected the same or similarly by a change that game balance change becomes moot for the most part. Because everyone is on an equal footing eventually.

What specifically did you like about explore and commerce for sub hero? As I said though, new thread if we are going to get into that.

Give out edge points every 5 levels and every 50 hours the char is fully visible, i.e. not in hide or camo, so that EP's can't just be botted someplace. We have wilderness timer, I don't think it'd be too hard to implement EP timer. I suppose EP's for reaching hero and reaching old age won't hurt either. Plus ImmXP gives EP's of course. Get rid of OBS/EXP and don't bring back PK-related ones. Retrieving should only give EP's if opposed, but then like every 5-10 retrievals should gain 1 EP.

So, I think EP for ever 5 or 10 levels is a good idea. That is fine with me. The higher the level the more EP. So you end up with the most when you hit 51 but you do not have no EP at 20.

As far as hours, I'm not sure that is the best idea. Might be complicated to make sure it cannot be botted. Or that might be easy, not sure. I'm not a coding guy.

EP on retrievals I like as an idea. But that is a complicated mess of how to decide and code if it is worth EP or not. How do you measure a difficult retrieval? Complicated, and I'm sure it has been discussed before. Still a good idea though.

This is a textbook guilt trip, with a hefty side serving of manipulation. Don't capitulate!

But when I see cabal leaders who never ever come to reraid - consistently over several weeks. I don't think that's how the game was designed to be.

The same goes with people having massive numbers over their opponents - and not bothering with raiding like, at all.

Specifically, to not deify people for having bad-ass PK ratios when it means they acted like chumps to get to their numbers.

I'm talking about leaders of cabals that are designed to be aggressive to never take part in raiding. Even some of the leader titles give clues that these guy should rock the dancefloor, yet here we are.

You say this is "up to playerbase", I'd call it breaking RP big time. Because you don't act like you should, considering your position.

Why wouldn't I send a bunch of underlings to get my "power" back at no risk to myself? Especially if I'm an evil prick?

PK edge points didn't encourage the behavior you want out of players. IMMs have stated that, multiple times. What it did encourage was being a super "reaper of the meek" and multi-killing newbs.

You're sadly mistaken about a lot of your assumptions, but I love your passion.

I'm just sad about current PK dynamics. I have to look for people FOR HOURS sometimes! Of course I'm not a CF geography expert, but after all it's carrion fields, not dandellion ones, right?

For some people, like me, it was the ONLY way to get a decent amount of edge points.

I definitely don't need an incentive to PK. I'd do it with or without edge points, PK totals, cabal incentives, whatever. PKing is 99% of the reason why I roll a new character.

But it sucks horribly to have no chance at getting a decent edge unless I make a concerted effort to look at mobs before I kill them, and look at room descriptions that I've already seen many times over.

As for IMM exp, I'm confident, I can roleplay reasonably well - I've led cabals, been an Imm, had a religion, received perks, etc. - but I cannot seem to get very much IMM exp, no matter how much my characters accomplish.

So removing the PK edge points basically means my characters will not have edges.

As far the edges, some of them, like Warlock of the Golden Grimoire, or combat elementalist, make the game so much more playable that they are virtually essential to enjoying the class.

And others, like demielemental (sticking with invokers because that's what I played the last couple times) are a signpost achievement/key advantage (my last invoker always had undead PCs in range).

At this point, I'll have to be satisfied with the first two, only, and will not even sniff demielemental or experiment with other less-chosen selections. And it feels as though the only people who benefit are those handful that are very good at getting positive Imm attention.

If you are going to remove edge points, why not replace some of the edges (like the ones listed above) with something like "super skills" or "super spells", that require 6 practices to select? Is a skill like combat elementalist or golden grimoire so powerful that you need to expend rare edge points to get them?

....make it so that they don't count if it's a multkill.

Midlevel PK is a major reason for rage deletions, small percentage of rage deletions leads to players leaving. Hence only situations when players are ready to kill and die are to be encouraged (all hail my raiding EPs idea), not random killing.

Called ImmExp.