So I gave it a thought recently and found out that the current system of rewarding reraiding with edge points has some adverse influence on the process.

As it is now, I am incentivized to retrieve, but at the same time I am disinsentivized to raid against no raid opposition, because I would just feed edge points to the cabal enemies (which I am generally not inclined to do).

And even if I am raiding against opposition, I only do this because:

1) I hope to get PKs either on raid or reraid because I'm PK freak;
2) Out of RP reasons.

At the same time, most fun action in CF (in my experience) is raiding against tough opposition, so why don't we incentivize this exact behavior in some way?

Possible solution (although perhaps not easy to code unless there are already mechanisms implemented) would be to reward PKs made in raid situations. Like if I pk someone out of the blue - I don't have any EPs, but if I PK someone inside a cabal or surrounding area (if one of the opponents is part of that cabal) - that's rewarded by EPs.

This way raid situations will be incentivized regardless of whether this is raid or reraid, and people will be more inclined to challenge themselves with tough situations.

Additionally, some thought should be put into linking those PKs with facts of taking/retrieving items, but how about starting with raid PK EPs, and then tune it depending on the result. Definitely won't result in lowbie PK grinding.

nt

With the current online, raid other cabals = give them edge points for free, because mid/low ranks will raid and retrieve, and I cannot do anything. At the same time, I gain nothing for raiding. So, raiding today is same as shoting yourself in the leg.

I know imms won't review edgepoints for taking an enemy items (even if that would be "milestone for 100, 200, 500 and 1000 raids", which would be fair), but perhaps they'll remove edgpoints for retrivials. Though I doubt that anything we write here is actually matters and being taken into consideration at all.

Personally I'd award points based on number and deadliness of opponents, relative to your own cabal groupable strength modified for healers, bards, invokers.

I seriously have my doubts EPs related to PK in any situation encourage any sort of good behavior on the part of the PB. All of them are prone to abuse, and if there is one thing CF players will do, it's find a way to farm an EP system. Twist posting how the system worked was the death knell of EP for PKs because of what players did with the information.

EPs are perks, they really should not be a tool to incentivize behavior that your character should otherwise be engaging in because of RP.

Under your example, what if three of us gang a cabal and kill the lone defender. Tell me why that person should get EP for a PK because he landed that KB? You think a lone guy is charging a two people at cabal inners for a shot at gaining an insignificant amount of EP? You're not incentivizing anything with this idea. You're actually further deterring people taking chances on defense against tough odds. Often it is easier to try and retrieve then defend when outnumbered (except in Battle), because you can control the engagement terms. Under your idea, if I get a PK when I retrieve, I can get EP, but if I die they can not. So why try to defend my item on their terms when I can try to retrieve on mine, with potentially more to gain because of the EP from maybe a PK while "raiding" their cabal plus the retrieval EP?

You PK someone, you've knocked him out of the fight, and you can claim his things. Also, a lot of players just like the fun of the fight itself, the outcome is sort of ancillary. That's all the reward you need. PKs don't need to give a permanent boon to your character to encourage people to engage in them, because when they do people start trying to work the system to get them. As such, they end up encouraging all the wrong sort of PK oriented behaviors.

Accept that chars will generally only have a few edges, PK for RP, glory, loot and for the fun of the actual encounter, and move on.

Imms don't need to take steps to foster PK encounters through the EP system, you as the player already have the ability to do so through the chars you play and choices you make IC.

>EPs are perks, they really should not be a tool to incentivize
>behavior that your character should otherwise be engaging in
>because of RP.

Wrong. EPs (see history) are designed to be a tool to incentivize behavior that should be incentivized. Of which raiding certainly is one.

>Under your example, what if three of us gang a cabal and kill
>the lone defender. Tell me why that person should get EP for a
>PK because he landed that KB? You think a lone guy is charging
>a two people at cabal inners for a shot at gaining an
>insignificant amount of EP? You're not incentivizing anything
>with this idea. You're actually further deterring people
>taking chances on defense against tough odds. Often it is
>easier to try and retrieve then defend when outnumbered
>(except in Battle), because you can control the engagement
>terms. Under your idea, if I get a PK when I retrieve, I can
>get EP, but if I die they can not. So why try to defend my
>item on their terms when I can try to retrieve on mine, with
>potentially more to gain because of the EP from maybe a PK
>while "raiding" their cabal plus the retrieval EP?

Well, more or less you didn't get my idea at all.

With Raid PK EPs I am incentivized to defend 1 vs 3 because if I kill one of them, I get my EPs. Whereas now I am incentivized to let them raid, wait for them to quit and reraid.
At the same time I am incentivized to reraid against opposition, because I'll get EPs for the reraid itself (as it is now) and at the same time I will get EPs if I kill someone during reraid. This way I am incentivized to reraid against opposition, not just wait out till ppl quit and reraid to get my EPs.

If I kill someone when defending against reraid, I get EPs so I am incentivized to defend against reraid as well.


>You PK someone, you've knocked him out of the fight, and you
>can claim his things. Also, a lot of players just like the fun
>of the fight itself, the outcome is sort of ancillary. That's
>all the reward you need. PKs don't need to give a permanent
>boon to your character to encourage people to engage in them,
>because when they do people start trying to work the system to
>get them. As such, they end up encouraging all the wrong sort
>of PK oriented behaviors.

Be creative and come up with a "wrong sort of PK oriented behavior" that is incentivized by the raid EPs system I propose. So far you didn't therefore I assume your statements as having no ground.


>Accept that chars will generally only have a few edges, PK for
>RP, glory, loot and for the fun of the actual encounter, and
>move on.

I might be wrong, but currently my characters are on the higher tier with regard to number of edges, so my proposal is not about "I don't have enough edges", it's about incentivizing fun experience (which raiding certainly is).


>Imms don't need to take steps to foster PK encounters through
>the EP system, you as the player already have the ability to
>do so through the chars you play and choices you make IC.

Don't substitute raiding for pk encounters. These are totally different.

You also theorized bard songs heal NPCs with zero experience or facts to support it, so I didn't think I should have to support my statements. :)

Raiding serves a purpose, but without an RP purpose behind it, it should not be encouraged.

Linking EPs to PKs during Raids (which are entirely subjective as to what constitutes them- just ask pro and con battle people) means you're promoting PK, not raiding in of itself.

"With Raid PK EPs I am incentivized to defend 1 vs 3 because if I kill one of them, I get my EPs. Whereas now I am incentivized to let them raid, wait for them to quit and reraid.
At the same time I am incentivized to reraid against opposition, because I'll get EPs for the reraid itself (as it is now) and at the same time I will get EPs if I kill someone during reraid. This way I am incentivized to reraid against opposition, not just wait out till ppl quit and reraid to get my EPs.

If I kill someone when defending against reraid, I get EPs so I am incentivized to defend against reraid as well."

- No EPs for retrievals that don't garner 1500+ cabal xp. There you go. Now you've incentived retrieval against opposition that has nothing to do with PK. Whether the opposition shows is on them.
- EP for Raids that garner 1500+ cabal xp. There, you've encouraged raiding against opposition, again, whether they show to defend is on them. Maybe a swift tactical strike should be rewarded.
- This is easy to abuse, both sides just refuse to defend and farm the hell out of it, except an Imm would probably smite and uninduct all of them if they saw it.
- Your system just rewards PK based on a location at or near a cabal, there's no link to a raid that I even see.
- How do you tie in a cabal item? I PK a guy, then decide to raid his cabal? What's my time line to complete it to garner the EP for the kill? Fortlander raids empire and takes the orb, fort guy kills imperial, outlander places codex. EP for fort guy?

"Be creative and come up with a "wrong sort of PK oriented behavior" that is incentivized by the raid EPs system I propose. So far you didn't therefore I assume your statements as having no ground."

Here's what your system encourages:
- You've encouraged people to prioritize the PK of a defender over taking the item since taking an item does not garner EP, the PK does.
- You've encouraged multi killing of the people that do defend or attempt to retrieve. Cause EP.
- You've encouraged cabal sitting (hi Gromm, nice to see you camping redhorn) by people who have zero intention of raiding the cabal because a PK based on that location may garner some EP.
- You've encouraged people to hit outers to lure people to PKs which wastes everyone's time, rather than hunt them, since now they can get EPs if they get a PK for this annoying behavior.
- You've encouraged a tiny facet of Thera to be the focal point for PK activity because they are rewarded more for a PK based on location where it takes place.
- You've done nothing to encourage people not to wait out terrible odds. The shot at EP against terrible odds is not motivation when you know that those 3 attackers/defenders have the chance to gain EP, so are going to all be gunning for you and not your item. Defender will still wait it out, and probably retrieve against 0-1 defenders, because those same three want that same shot at EP for killing you if you try to counter raid, so are further encouraged to cabal sit.

- Finally, Cabal dogma is fluid, you can't have a rote system that is responsive to the ever changing RP environment that is CF. Fort may be at war with Trib, but you can't say Fort always is. Do they get EP for those trib kills? Only for evil tribs? What about evil tribs when not at war? What about trib kills on the fort member? Do you not see how this system can be prone to abuse, or how people may prioritize the wrong type of RP to facilitate the prospect of garnering EP? What do you do about Nexus, who is friends and enemies with everyone at the same time?

"I might be wrong, but currently my characters are on the higher tier with regard to number of edges, so my proposal is not about "I don't have enough edges", it's about incentivizing fun experience (which raiding certainly is)."

- I have no idea if that is true. You may not care about edges, others do. Raiding is fun. You can engage in it whenever you want already.

"Don't substitute raiding for PK encounters. These are totally different."
- You're the one linking them together in your system. Come up with a way to promote raiding that has nothing to do with a player dying and I'd be all for it.

>- You're the one linking them together in your system. Come up
>with a way to promote raiding that has nothing to do with a
>player dying and I'd be all for it.

I see what you did there.

Who cares edge points are just a little inconsequential part of the game. Are they entertaining, Yes. Are they a must have to succeed, No. I don't care how many edges someone has there's always generally a way around them. A few of the immortal granted/cabal edges definitely can give an "edge" in combat, but honestly who cares.

If the only thing you have to do is sit around and gripe about "He has more edges then me, that's not fair." Then go make a RP character and don't pk. There are more than enough ways to earn edge points they're just too time consuming for most of you. Stop caring about padding your pk scores so much. I'll add that this is one of the contributing factors to our playerbase loss. Many of you, not all, are douches about it and specifically target opponents that consistently offer no challenge.

Argue all you want too, but I've been trying to get new players to come in and I personally know six or seven players that have quit playing because assassin/necro A or air murdershifter/paladin B repeatedly kill them with no RP or even a word to them.

Seriously find something constructive to do other than try to come up with some way to weasel more edge points.

It's not about edge points, it's about incentivizing raiding against opposition. Thank you in advance.

Eg the ap edge that makes them dispel an enemy when they successfully curse an awake one. Good chance that shaman is now bashable and without Sanc.

Quite a few assassin edges are too. Smoke and mirrors makes sneaking up on people a lot easier (eg on kiadana). And an edge can enable an assassin to become immune to sleep and ko.

Seven winds of hamsah was also crazy good on a sword spec.

Shield dedicant paladins are not scary when alone until you edge boost them.

Etc.

That said if like to see more edges for all, not less.

Even if current system stays but everyone gets a pot of edge points to start with, which frankly probably is more fun for newbs anyway.