I felt like the timer on discussing with your guildmaster without being awarded Obs/Exp/Com exp was implemented to make it more mysterious and not have it too number crunchy for players.

But, in the spirit of transparency, can we remove it? It would allow a player to figure out better what is a waste of time when farming this exp and what is productive.

asd

Its pretty unlikely that is going to happen.

Quit trying to shame min/maxing. The average age of CFers is only increasing. We're people with jobs and families.

Its that we don't need to make it even easier to script by allowing someone to cut out literally every unnecessary command.

Edit to fix my own stupid spelling error.

I don't have scripts for any of this. But, yes, eliminating unnecessary time and effort is the reason I suggested this.

Like I said, I don't have scripts for this. For me, knowing more precisely what does and doesn't contribute to my goal saves me tons of time, scratch that, it allows me to do other things with my characters limited life.

On the other hand, if someone is already using scripts for obs/exp, removing the unnecessary steps will not save them much time.

When you base your decisions on how they affect those who use scripts, you are really making it much more difficult for those, like me, who do not.

Big picture is that people decide to do this because they believe it gives them an edge. Same way some people like to master skills at low levels or farm preps at varied stages in the game. Its a completely optional practice that you choose to undertake. If it takes you a little extra time in order to gain the benefit, I don't see a problem with that. If you don't think its worth your time to go and do it, then don't.

Edges do give a character an edge or advantage over another character that do not have them. Is this still debated? I do not want to fight an assassin with 400 more hp than I have when we're both in martial trance.

Saying that it is optional does not mean that it cannot or should not be made less burdensome. Yes, I do think it's worth it. I do not like the investment, but enjoy the returns. But, you must understand, that as time becomes more valuable to an aging player base, the equation changes and as soon as investment > enjoyment, we've lost a player. It just makes sense to keep an eye out for things that can lower investment and maintain the enjoyment and the suggestion seems like a baby step.

"a little extra time" doesn't mean what it did when I was an undergrad 20 years ago and if I'm playing CF anyway, is there nothing you'd rather see my character doing?

Very few people have the time to play CF like you want it to be played.

So far the response from the staff can be pretty much summed up as.. well #### those people.


Oh well.

But I'm having a hard time convincing anyone that it's now a required activity for anyone who takes PK seriously.

Look at the last five PBFs not counting Kyrwhatever since that person was 6/9. Hardly any pk action I guess on that one.

Explore max edge is: 40k
Observe max edge is: 30k

Gaspare: 269/16 in PK. Did not max explore 33k/39k
Obughum: 63/21 in PK. Did not max explore 23k/30k
Adzelino: 95/3 in PK. Did not max exp/obs 24k/29k
Abelmon: 82/24 in PK. Did not max exp/obs 18k/23k
Tanzer: 64/64 in PK. Did not max exp/obs 12k/23k

None of these people maxed their edge points from exploration/observation. None of them had a negative K/D. I guess they just don't take their PK serious enough.

I guess we witness another nerf right here before our very eyes.

Unless other factors are in play (I don't know if it was changed how much EP you get from each step).

It's all there and current afaik.

NT

NT

I spent hours and hours and bucket of con making my way through nearly the entire list of area explores and didn't even hit 20k, never mind 40.

Secondly, all of those characters were rolled in time to earn edge points from PK. You have to look at characters rolled after the changes went in. "Man I hate peeling oranges" "Hey buddy I've got a bunch of apples here and I didn't peel any of the, you must suck". Your argument is invalid.

You should get at least 20k exp BEFORE you even hero. Because you aint get nothing in those places once you're there.

I guess you don't take PK serious (Speaking of invalid arguments.)

Take another approach then. It's quite obvious edges are not required to win in PK.

Adzelino had 4 edges. Arguably the best pk stats of the ones I posted outside Emperor Lich.

Goes 95/3 in PK. Only had 4 edges. Guess he didn't take it serious.

Kelkob goes 38/1. Only has 3 edges. Guess he didn't take it serious.

Mhirnal goes 118/6. Only has 3 edges. Guess he didn't take it serious.

Cinlos goes 42/9. Only has 2 edges. Guess he didn't take it serious.

Hileu goes 104/8. Only has 6 edges. Guess he didn't take it serious.

Eleri goes 50/74. Has TEN edges. Guess this guy took PK serious.

Varnon goes 120/112. Has FIFTEEN edges. Guess this guy took PK serious.

Yentral goes 13/19. Has 8 edges. Guess this guy took PK serious.

Soelela goes 19/48. Has 7 edges. Super serious PKer here.

Your argument (MUST HAS EDGE TO PK) has been smashed. Sorry bongo, move along. Lack of edges isn't why you aren't winning. This is just off the first page of PBFs.

There are so many more factors at play here than number of edges (also not all edges are equal).

Also, you suck at PK.

Also I was winning. AFTER I took the 'I win' edge for necros. Transformed the character, night and day. There are several other classes with 'I win' edges.

Also you suck and therefore your opinion is invalid.

Those valid arguments are slaying me bruvinski.

I guess if you need this as your excuse for why you aren't good at the game, do as you like. Not looking to shatter your fragile ego here. Beront and Shaapa do just fine with minimal edges.

This isn't about me. I'm using my own experiences as illustrative examples because that's what I have to go on. I'm also certain I'm making relevant points applicable to the general case. No need to bust my ego.

I have what you are saying and I have a page of PBFs to counter what you say. Not sure who it's about :D

I think it's worth pointing out that most PBF chars are not typical and cannot be considered some random sampling of CF characters as would be necessary for the conclusions you are drawing from their stats.

1. PBFs are a very small percentage of CF characters
2. They typically represent very successful characters
3. You chose the best out of this category to make your point
3. The best player's characters are often very successful and end up on PBF, so it is possible that 4 PBFs chosen at random will represent 1 elite player.

So, you are taking a subset of a subset of the playerbase that represents the best players and in similar (I doubt yours in this case) analysis, probably makes them appear to be a bigger set of players than they represent.

You cannot take the best of the best of the best and draw the conclusion that "you don't need edges to PK". Who is you in that statement? The players with those particular character/class combinations who represent the best of the elite is to whom you are speaking. And no, they probably don't need a bunch of edges to PK, but a vast majority do to not only PK, but survive the players you just highlighted.

You cannot administer a game based on what a small percentage of players with the highest skill can accomplish. That ignores the vast majority of the playerbase.

There should also not be a presumption that every suggestion to improve CF be a selfish ploy to improve only the posters experience.

I started this thread to make it easier for the majority including new players. I have no problem getting my 5k/10k before the cutoff, the characters I decide to invest any time into have very positive PK ratios and usually end with twitchy and everything below it available when they die/delete (I can be indecisive).

This wasn't about me other than the fact that while I can play the edge point game, I hate it and I know others do as well. It's hard to listen to the Newbie channel (like today) and hear a new CFer confused because they are sure they explored all of the kobold caves and didn't get any explore xp at level 5. "You mean you don't get partial exp? You have to hit a specific room, or look at a specific mob or gear to get any obs/exp XP?" It's sad to think how long it will take that person to figure out this maze of conflicting information, non-intuitive solutions and the complete uselessness of most of what they are doing as they try to reverse engineer this process to gain something from this prominent feature. Worst still, this is a huge part of the CF with which they have been presented for their consideration as to whether it is a world worth delving deeper into *given what they have thus far experienced.*

Whew. No offense anyone.

NT

NT

Once there was Knights, Masters, Arbiter, Sylvan and Entropy. None of them exist anymore.

Once there were dwarf mages. Not any more.

Sanc potions? Gone.

Haste potions (except for Elystan's careful horded one)? Gone.

Scion? Gone.

It's part of being a dynamic game. If you asked Umiron, I'd bet he'd argue edges are a lot more trouble than they are worth.

and another to remove a detailed feature that incorporates lots of work and brings a lot of diversity into the game.

Cabals shouldn't go away either. But at least most of them were reincorporated in another form, it is more of a revamp rather than removal of features.

I am tired of arguing because it is obvious my opinion and/or experience means nothing here. Let them go ahead and walk into all the same traps I walked into when I ran my MUD.

I think that would certainly be beneficial. And you get your area done very quickly, I'm sure.

This way you'll be able to influence decisions and play your hapless characters at the same time.

NT

is Matrik urging to play halfling bard.

NT

or I somehow made the same mistake several times in a row...

EDIT: Yeah it's broken.

Eventually (when you hit the threshold) it just lists them vertically without the indent. My guess is for readability.

I'm looking at YET ANOTHER edgepoint nerf RIGHT NOW, and I am not amused.

It used to be EP for every 500 explore, max 26k.
Then it was EP for every 1000 explore, max 26k.

Now it is EP for every 2000 explore, max 40k. You can get way less and you have to do way more to get it.

Now, I don't mind exploring anyway (it is fun and the achiever in me likes to watch my score exp accumulate numbers). But I liked the benefits too. I want my ####ing convenience, stop taking it away.

>1. PBFs are a very small percentage of CF characters

KaguMaru's argument was for "anyone that takes PK serious." I only need one example to beat that.

>2. They typically represent very successful characters

Indeed. I pulled the ones that were PK successful with few edges and the ones that were PK failures with lots of edges. They exist and that's all the argument needs.

>3. You chose the best out of this category to make your point

Well choosing ones that did well/failed and have lots/few edges doesn't make any point against his argument. Why would I bring those up?

>3. The best player's characters are often very successful and
>end up on PBF, so it is possible that 4 PBFs chosen at random
>will represent 1 elite player.

Sure. One player that takes PK serious and does well with few edges. I only needed one, but to my delight found many.

>You cannot take the best of the best of the best and draw the
>conclusion that "you don't need edges to PK". Who is you in
>that statement? The players with those particular
>character/class combinations who represent the best of the
>elite is to whom you are speaking. And no, they probably don't
>need a bunch of edges to PK, but a vast majority do to not
>only PK, but survive the players you just highlighted.

"You" is "Anyone that takes PK serious." You go on to speak of character/class combinations and the choices obviously go much deeper than that. It's up to the player to choose the right options if they want to "be serious at PK" and edges are not a necessity as my post proved. Make the right decisions and get good (KaguMaru).

>You cannot administer a game based on what a small percentage
>of players with the highest skill can accomplish. That ignores
>the vast majority of the playerbase.

I'll put aside KaguMaru's argument to respond directly to you.

You would have a point if CF was solely Player vs. Environment. You don't have much of one in actual CF though. Anything you do to raise the power level of middlings will increase the power level of elites. I think what you are proposing here would be a bad way to approach game design.

EDIT PS: I did like though. Good post. Full of thought and reason sans emotional reaction. Thumbs up.

Good points, especially the helping midbies helps elites, too, and probably moreso. nt

.

Otherwise limited life is a pretty hollow argument.

i have done enough to know when it happened, I never said if only I hadn't spent one of my 500 hours looking at object descriptions that didn't yield obs exp, this would have been a more fulfilling char.

But it's definitely not because of having to do my exploration all over again.

I didn't mean to imply agedeath. I meant that however a char heads to the graveyard, even if deleted, there will always be plenty of hours that would have been spent more productively had they not been farming obs/exp.

All chars have a lifespan that will be limited by something: age, boredom, con loss, RL, etc.