Hey guys,

I just came back to try the new awesome CF I heard about, but hot damn, I totally made a build and a role already and spent a ton of time getting it together. But, a big part was utilizing the fangs of the serpent scrolls and someone said they might be taken out.

Any way I could get some time saved and get a confirm if those scrolls were removed or JUST the tail of the lizard ones? I really hope not because they certainly weren't overpowered and scrolls need a little boon like that.

Appreciate it.

Two things:

1) I didn't know those were there until a player pointed them out on a forum.

2) In my opinion, those spells (some more than others) were clearly not designed and implemented with the idea that they would be available in prep form.

I have no intention of putting them back or adjusting those spells.

*were clearly not designed and implemented with the idea that they would be available in prep form*

But didn't the same people that designed or assisted with the partial shifts design/implement that area?

>*were clearly not designed and implemented with the idea that
>they would be available in prep form*
>
>But didn't the same people that designed or assisted with the
>partial shifts design/implement that area?

I'm not 100% sure. I assume anything shifter-related done in the last ten years was coded by Zulg, but if not I don't think Crysseara would be my second guess.

I suppose it might be simpler to not rely on who did or intended what and just say that I've reviewed those spells and I I don't think they're appropriate for use in a preps.

I vetted the scrolls pretty well through Daev to make sure they were appropriate as preps, but you and I can take a discussion about the area intent offline.

<insert some sarcastic jab at ST preps>

Just kidding :)

Honestly though, I just think it's powercreep of preps more than anything like I mentioned on the other board. When people are saying "ohmygod I can't play bards anymore, my anti-bash prep is gone!" you could say they're going overboard (they are) but you can also realize how incredibly strong those scrolls were. We don't need more things to make people harder to kill...

If I had known those were around when I had my last AP, I would have had them all the time.

"I don't want to play bards anymore" does not equal "I can't play bards anymore".

The scrolls were very good, yes, so what? Many things are very good.

Speckled pills are very good. Whirling staves are very good. Let's take them out as well?

There's a reason why the wraithform potion is incredibly rare.

Bash protection in particular is a huge vulnerability for several classes and correctly so. Removing that is why we don't have sanctuary pills anymore.

Wraith form is guaranteed to stop bash.

As is armor of thorns, another prep.

Tail of the lizard isn't although it is probably 90 percent effective. Too much.

If that 90 percent became 30 percent, would it still be op? I'd argue not.

I still got permabashed occasionally as a bard. It took tail + haste + enlarge to even approach anything useful in terms of bash protection, and even then it was more like "bash resistance".

So really it's apples/oranges. Pre partial shift boost they were probably just fine as low lvl preps. Post boost perhaps not?

I had the same thought about partial shifts getting a boost as well but could not find the post. Are you sure they did?

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=47&topic_id=42&mesg_id=42&page=

Of fangs of the snake? For the last several years?

What did you think when you saw all of them?

gr

nt

..and you're pretty much hands off as far as interactions so you're probably not snooping much...where do you get all your information regarding game balance stuff to make decisions like these?

Shaapa's goodbye thread probably isn't the best source of researched information. =P

I use years of experience playing the game and the source code, as well as input from staff members who do regularly play mortals. I also snoop a fair amount.

I occasionally read logs too, like I said.

Besides, if I played mortals then I'd have to put up with a whole new category of ####, and without hesitation I'd rather just leave CF behind me.

Best thing I've seen happen to CF since 1997.

That being said...relying on second hand information without actually experiencing the game yourself will lead to knee jerk reactions like this for issues that really weren't a problem to begin with and had been implemented with careful thought and consideration.

Also all players aren't assholes, just the more vocal ones. Case in point.

You're the reason I came back. Heard you were killing it being a leader. I think a lot of recent comebacks were because of you. Keep up the good work.

fo sho

Plus you can experiment with stuff on a test server.

Re: morts, you should just play them and not tell anybody. Or just do the following and nobody can complain:

1. Don't use any "exotic" preps, gear or gold locations that you'd get accused of only knowing about because you're on staff,

2. Refuse if you're offered a leader position,

3. Don't pursue a religion / tattoo, and

4. If you play a cabal that involves staff promotions, e.g. fortress, put something in your role about not wanting to be promoted until your character satisfies a slightly-more-difficult-than-usual set of criteria.

If you did all that I can't imagine what anyone would have to complain about.

.

I have to agree with both Grurk/Jalim and say that you are the best thing to happen to CF in a long long time, you and Scar keep rocking out.

I also have to agree with Isildur and say things could be more thoroughly tested on a test server. And being the morally sound individual that I am, I would be remiss if I didn't raise my hand and inform you of my honor bound offer to continually test things on your test server prior to implementation. Myself and a handful of vets could do wonders for balance pre-implementation, if you were so inclined.

.. And the hand full of vets apply to IMM then? The process is there for a reason.

Although I would argue that there is a very different staff process than when I tried a few years back. There are some great 20 year vets out there that would probably do a lot of good for the game, in different areas. If I were ever an imm I would probably mostly work on areas/revamped zones, that's the sort of thing that would interest me most.

I still think a big set back in terms of sustaining player numbers was due to letting too many vets imm at around the same time.

I'd love to try my hand at improving CF's code but I don't want to write an area. Also I enjoy playing mortals more than being on staff.

btw, my interest in improving the code is purely selfish. And it's not that I just love debugging 20 year old C code. It's that the more stable and performant the code is the more enjoyable my experience is as a mortal player. Along with the experience of every other mortal player.

I got a tight idea for a top end area explore I have been developing/writing for years actually. I got over 40 room descriptions and a map done already actually just for kicks.


We will have to share the character. I'll spend my half of the time spam randomizing the rooms in the academy to cause mayhem.

I've done a couple of areas for different MUDs not being immortal - they didn't sue me :)

They wont put your area in CF unless you are an imm.

Cause it sounds irrational :)

We have a pretty specific process and requirements as to the theme of areas, quality, etc. We also have limited time so we reserve that for reviewing and supporting the area work of immortals instead of player volunteers, who tend to be an order of magnitude less reliable. Honestly, the reasons why we don't accept areas from players is just a really long, logical list if one cares to go on about it but we don't so I won't bother.

I'm not sure what testing or test servers has to do with the partial shifts, but in general I do attempt to test all of the changes I make. Sometimes that's not feasible due to the number of variables in play, the time involved or the availability of "live" data, but them's the breaks.

To clarify:

It was not my intent to imply that things need to be "more thoroughly tested on a test server".

I mentioned his ability to test stuff on the test server as a rebuttal to the argument that he can't properly game-balance stuff because he doesn't read logs and doesn't play mortals.

I am not taking sides in any argument (perceived or otherwise) either way.

I am just hear to lobby for access to the test server to "help out" "vet new ideas" "play"!

There is simply no way of giving people the ability to effectively test things without also giving them the ability to do numerous things that aren't cool.

Not to mention that managing said testers and the resulting feedback loop would be a bigger job than just doing the testing oneself.

I figured, had to ask though right?

Thanks for the feedback!

You made a role based around a prep? Wow.

Tail of the lizard would be fine if it was just reduced in effectiveness to maybe 50 percent of what it is now, or significantly increased in cost.

Well, there goes an in-depth well thought out 5 chapter role. People who have scrolls deserve buffs like that though, that sucks. Oh well, back to other games I guess, I tried.

Try a well round role that allows for flexibility either way.

Really a whole role that is based on one scroll????

My mind is officially blown.

Seems like just a reason to complain about it to me and no role was written.

I would like to read this role based around a partial shift scroll.

Lol.

Roles are often themed in similar ways, with stories of love, betrayal, tragedy, courage, honor etc. tending to be common. So I get the need to come up with an original concept. The trick is to write said role in a way which has personal stylings and originality. A good place to introduce that originality is in the details around the story rather than the overarching theme.

I'm not sure what I'd think if I read a role around a prep. Not trying to insult or ridicule you here Trip. I don't think I've ever read something like that and have no personal reference point to speak from.

But it was basically a glorified alcoholic story about not wanting to feel pain. Would have been interesting if I took that flaw that made you unable to tell your current condition.

nt

I can think of many different roles revolved around wanting or needing to have fangs. Vampires anyone? I know the point of the prep is to cause poison damage, but remember the person still grows fangs to do so. I know it seems like Trip might be making all this up just to complain about something he liked being removed from the game, but it also seems like people are far too inclined to jump to that conclusion and frankly that is annoying. Really, it is not that difficult to think of a role built around growing fangs, especially when there is a prep that can do exactly that. Ohh wait, nevermind, the prep is gone because of whiny bitches.

Tail could have been removed with the rest of them left in and everything would be just fine. ffs

I wrote an in depth role that had absolutely nothing to do with preps or anything at all, it was a super well thought out role and I was proud of it, it was for an elf thief Maran binder and without those scrolls I just meant I a key factor of the actual build wouldn't operate well enough for me to want to play the character.

They were so strong, I can see them being removed to be honest. I'll just play my other character idea so I can be more pk relevant =)