When we (internally) discussed edges prior to the refactoring we did back in December, one of the things I wanted to look at was edge usage and possibly rolling certain edges into the core game or class.

Certain edges, specifically class edges, tend to be taken by almost everyone who is ever eligible. To a degree, this sort of defeats the purpose of that piece of functionality being an edge because as almost everyone applicable has it, it is no longer a customization. Likewise, these edges tend to be considered "mandatory" instead of a reward or merely a build characteristic.

So, I invite you all to select ONE edge you think should be completely eliminated and rolled into the "base game". The caveat being that I would almost certainly alter said functionality to be slightly more one-dimensional (e.g., maybe where the edge once did X, now it does X adjusted somehow for ). Please attempt to justify your suggestion.

I have my own ideas in mind and I have some concrete data on edge usage that I won't share (yet), as I'm specifically curious what people think about how this would impact the game in general and from both the perspective of the build(s) that would benefit from their suggestion as well as the perspective of its opponents.

Caveat number two: if we were to factor a significant number of edges out of the edge system and into the core game, we would also re-evaluate other edge costs, the distribution of edge points (both in how and quantity), etc. Suggesting we essentially give you X edge points worth of free edges does not mean you'll end up with X more available edge points to spend on more/other edges.

With the new way that wands are acquired, can we simply do away with these edges and just get a new rod if a character can't gather it in somewhere from 25 to 100 character hours?

The only one that truly comes to mind is Combat Elementalist.

I would take that first with every invoker I roll.

I also think it would be really easy to turn it into a class spell/edge combo, without boosting the power of the edge, as all, as follows:

1. Combat Elementalist as a class skill gives a 2 round lag when the touch is cast during combat.
2. Combat Elementalist as an edge boost gives a 1 round lag, as the edge does now.

Then, I'd at least think about it for a couple hours before taking it first. :)

I've not had a druid I didn't take it on. It should just naturally be a lot easier to get a specific herbtype under the right moon and difficult to get the opposite herbtype.

That should cost edge points, and is good reward option.

Honestly, edges are a lot of fun, and I hate that since the change I get so fewer to pick. It just feels like to me now, I've got to be religious, be prominent in a cabal, stir some #### up and make some waves so I'll get noticed, or just write a lot roles.

So look, continue the edge point rewards as they are, and do your thing with the power edges, but throw the players a bone and let us get some ####ty edges early: how about every 10 ranks you get a random edge? (from a weaker set - not the "required" set, right?)

So now, your character is randomly good at something you didn't plan on, but is a unique quirk to this character that you might not have ever experienced by choice. After all, there are lots of things we've learned that we didn't actively pursue, right?

And now we got some diversity across the game by default!

~

nt

But then I remember than feign weakness got me the vast majority of my kills on my bards.

as first OP and second messing with people's emotions.

If it could be toggled between on, off and feign either, that would be insanely OP. People would never know if a bard was actually near death. As it is, after maybe two fights you know if a bard has either edge (most assume bards have weakness) and it ceases to matter for the most part.

The problem with the feign edges to me is always this.

Feign strength- You look healthier, and maybe opponents flee instead of finishing you. Except opponents in control of the fight don't care if you die in four rounds or six. Bards are not scary in passive melee and have crap for ability to lag opponents out. Fights you are in control of, opponents are leaving earlier because they don't think they are in as much control or that they have a shot to swing it to their favor. This means you're pretty much screwing your ability to kill them because you can't keep them engaged as readily in the fight by stringing them along. Great for maybe survival, horrible for landing PKs. Nobody has ever cared about being the most survivable bard. (well, besides my overly conservative self)

Feign Weakness- Most vets assume bards have this, know general hp levels of classes, can assess gear bonuses, and track their own damage output. After maybe two fights, you know if a bard has the edge. They might over commit to a fight, but in most cases where they see a bard convulsing, the bard dies anyway. In close fights, they are probably going in knowing it is close anyway. People decide to flee when looking at their own chances and their opponents, and most weigh in this edge into making that decision when comparing their health to the bards.

The only way a bard can really maximize feign weakness, is to feign it through his actions as well as having the edge. This means fleeing at 50% health, maybe 60%, because you know you look writhing to them. It means not blasting away at people that are gushing when you know you look to be convulsing to them. The only way the edge is useful, is if people genuinely don't know, or have reason to suspect that you have it. And that's a lot harder to pull off.

This is with the caveat that you are a lot more experienced of a bard player than I am. Obviously everyone will figure out you have the edge soon enough. However, I think it still lands kills. Most players can't track your health % when you're feigning weakness. They have some idea, but "convulsing" could mean so many things. Just this gap in information between players is bound to sway fights now and then.

I landed a lot of kills, including against good players (one 1v2 against Sindrir and Yaztren comes to mind), where I think overconfidence due to feign weakness played a significant role.

That funny kill on Gromm in Shadow Grove happened only because Liantae said on cabal channel "he's near death". And you can't say deriveh is no vet or didn't know Talisin had feign weakness edge.

So basically, you have an edge for jab. One edge could cause bleeding or one edge could cause more damage, or one could give two slightly weaker strikes. But each time you get one it gets more expensive by double. So you COULD possibly get them all, but it will leave you barren in other edges since the third time you pick something for a specific skill it ends up being 4x as costly as the first one you pick. People would have to balance what they really like. Basically it would allow people to choose certain skills to specialize in if they really wanted to.

Other options would be a you chose one and you are eliminated for the others, like some of the assassin ones, though I like that less. A third idea would be similar to the first. Have a set multiplier to all edges and each time you take an edge the multiplier increases. This way people would need to plan which edges to take in order and be more specialized.

And here is what I would DREAM of in the game. More options for things like edge points. Exploration, PK, Observation, these are already there. I'd love it if quests could also give edge points and if leaders of cabals or senior priests in religions had a small pool of recognition edge points they could give out as rewards to people in the name of their God or Cabal. So say the High Priest of Twist notices that Billy who is uncaballed has helped restore balance or thinned the veil. He then decides that he can give a little recognition to Billy. Billy now how some recognition edge points. The recognition pool would refill slowly so they would only give them out to outstanding players and only people who are given this skill, leaders and high priests, would be allowed to do this. (I'd also like to see this so high priests of a God could give out limited empowerment.)

I'd also like edge points to be more visible in your score. Just like you can see how many practices or trains you have, you can see your edge points and kinda get an idea for whether you want to spend it now or wait for something else.

But in general any edge that helps significantly with pk, be it directly or indirectly, should be super expensive or toned down so it helps only slightly.

1. If it is an expensive edge that people always take, do not incorporate it into the class. Delete the edge, as it is probably making a skill considered essential to the class more powerful. That conflicts with the goals stated when edges were introduced. Smoke and Mirrors comes to mind, as it is probably my favorite assassin edge.

2. If (pk) successful characters tend to take a low-cost or medium cost edge, particularly if it is exclusive* to other edges, this edge is should be weakened or removed. I would include Steal Sight, my all-time favorite edge, in this category. This edge is stupidly cheap for its reliability and utility.

If it is a low cost, popular non-exclusive edge, consider setting its cost to zero and putting an asterisk in front of its name in the edge list. When hour/level minimums are met, players can acquire them in their guilds. No intensive coding changes required.


*By exclusive edge, I mean an edge the prevents the character from choosing different edges in the same category, like the martial trance and barkskin edges.

Steal sight is not what it was. Moving it to hero would be a better solution because at hero it becomes hard to blind people beating on you.

Other than that I agree with much of what you say. Things like neuro shouldn't be made stronger still IMO. I like smoke and mirrors but think it could use a chance of failure to re hide.

Honestly, I don't see why it's a problem for there to be an edge that makes a strong skill stronger unless that edge pushes the skill over into "unbalanced" territory. Maybe neuro+edge is unbalanced; I don't know. Shoot, maybe plain old neuro is unbalanced.

Smoke and mirrors, by the way, seems like a great edge in that it actually makes the class a little more fun. And it's not obviously overpowered. Do I wait for the guy to walk to me, or do I try to vanish across the place where I can't hide and hope I land next to him, with the understanding that I might land in the place where I can't hide and thereby spoil my stalking? Smoke and mirrors presents the player with those kinds of choices.

>Honestly, I don't see why it's a problem for there to be an
>edge that makes a strong skill stronger unless that
>edge pushes the skill over into "unbalanced" territory. Maybe
>neuro+edge is unbalanced; I don't know. Shoot, maybe plain
>old neuro is unbalanced.
>
>Smoke and mirrors, by the way, seems like a great edge in that
>it actually makes the class a little more fun. And it's not
>obviously overpowered. Do I wait for the guy to walk to me,
>or do I try to vanish across the place where I can't hide and
>hope I land next to him, with the understanding that I might
>land in the place where I can't hide and thereby spoil my
>stalking? Smoke and mirrors presents the player with those
>kinds of choices.

It does way more than that.

You can use it to cut people off on Eastern, for example, without revealing yourself.

It also netted me numerous kills on kiadana.

Finally it significantly reduces the risk of using vanish in somewhere like mortorn.

Not arguing it isn't useful. Just saying it doesn't break the class, IMO.

If it were just taking some edges out of the edge system and into the core game, I'd still have my doubts about balancing between classes and such but CF is pretty good about this. However, with the re-evaluation of edge costs and distribution of points, this is beginning to sound like it will just basically be someone choosing our edges for us. This is edge communism! I've never chosen any of the edges below, and I'm scared I'm going to be paying for these people's edges. Even if I'm getting equal benefit, they all want Mountain Dew and I want Jones soda.

A couple of points of justification.

1.) Getting enslave to a high enough percent to take the edge without using skill learn in conjuction with certain quests that give skill learns is a wild time sink. Over two orcs I spent hours spamming it to have it go up a net of 2% and over entire lifetime of both chars it went up about 10% naturally. So after hundreds of hours I wouldn't have been able to take the edge without skill learn, learn rates got better recently but at least 4 other people had similar issues with getting the skill up so I am pretty sure I am not crazy (my bet would be low int plus nuking of skills based on level of enemy used against plus needing mobs to be pretty lower level then you to use it)

2.) Slave selection is rough from 35-40, like very slim pickings. Around 42 it opens up a bit more in terms of volume but even at 51 the geographical location of mobs you would want to enslave vs where you would want to use them mixed in with the mobility restrictions of having a slave can make it bothersome to roll around with one.

If you were planning on making it less good I think like a 20% higher chance of failing on non traditional races would be cool. Or phasing in additional races with level, so like add trolls at 40, and giants at 45.

>A couple of points of justification.
>
>1.) Getting enslave to a high enough percent to take the edge
>without using skill learn in conjuction with certain quests
>that give skill learns is a wild time sink. Over two orcs I
>spent hours spamming it to have it go up a net of 2% and over
>entire lifetime of both chars it went up about 10% naturally.
>So after hundreds of hours I wouldn't have been able to take
>the edge without skill learn, learn rates got better recently
>but at least 4 other people had similar issues with getting
>the skill up so I am pretty sure I am not crazy (my bet would
>be low int plus nuking of skills based on level of enemy used
>against plus needing mobs to be pretty lower level then you to
>use it)

This seems to be entirely level dependent. Get in the 40's and it goes up just fine, even without trying.

>2.) Slave selection is rough from 35-40, like very slim
>pickings. Around 42 it opens up a bit more in terms of volume
>but even at 51 the geographical location of mobs you would
>want to enslave vs where you would want to use them mixed in
>with the mobility restrictions of having a slave can make it
>bothersome to roll around with one.

My personal feelings on slaver is that it is a must, but only because Orc NPC's are such ####ty slaves, for several reasons...

1) They seem to have PCish HP. Instead of a Giant or Dwarf NPC with 5k+ HP, they have maybe 1.5k
2) They tank with their faces. Literally they tank worse than any NPC I can think of off hand. Coupled with low HP, this means you get like 2 rounds out of them tanking.
3) They don't do cool orc stuff nearly often enough. None of them are adapted (I don't think), they don't spam bash or crushing assault or any of the skills you'd want an orc to be doing in combat.
4) The super-cool orc NPC slaves (AP from underdark, Undead from Barovia, Skjald from Kiadana) are totally underwhelming and/or broken (I'm look at you bard that doesn't sing). Getting them to do something useful in the 4 rounds you've got (2 with you in front and 2 with them) is bad odds.

Compared with a giant you *know* will entwine (and has enough HP to soak up rounds even at hero) or a polearm spec that can tank a rager for 10+ rounds the Orc npc's are really just complete #### in comparison.

My suggestion would be to very seriously look at the Orc NPC's and see if making them not suck in comparison to giant slaves would be more interesting.

I think that some edge cost repricing/rebalancing is required, but is there really any glaringly underpowered class or race for which incorporating any of the generally picked "must-have" edges would be justified? The "must-haves" tend to be edges that make an already good and useful ability even better, so incorporating them for everyone seems not only unnecessary but probably unbalancing too. However, I guess there are a number of minor edges which could likely be factored in without creating further problems (Sacred Word comes to mind).

Many edges have been added for key abilities to improve them, for abilities that are going to be used anyway, edge or not (e.g. Steal Sight & Psyche Crush). I think this is perhaps the major reason why certain edges are picked by everyone eligible. Also now with less edge points available the choices gravitate even more towards the "mandatory" ones. People of course want to choose the edges that will generally be the most helpful to their character (though e.g. their enemy range might cause some variation and have them pick another instead of the "obvious" one).

IMHO the focus on edges should rather be improving the various less-used/niche skills and/or race/class combos, making them more viable options (e.g. the elf/delf/svirf special shifter forms) and thus creating more diverse edge choices among the players.

All that said, I think you're kind of focusing on the wrong thing here. It seems that according to general opinion the issue with edges is edge point acquisition (i.e. the repetitive exp/obs grind, but I won't rehash that here). People seem happy with edges themselves and the choices available, even if currently the choices may be very concentrated. Also to have more diversity with the more popular/powerful edges, I think rather than trying to incorporate them into existing skills/classes/races, a more viable course would be to create alternatives of similar level, so that there's a real choice (due to functionality and cost; also some down-tweaking seems called for).

I love the obs/exp grind. It's the subjective ImmXP edge points that makes the playing field uneven.

I only truly understood this when I started reflexively doing it in skyrim

Please suggest a better way for any character to get edge points that is not open to subjective interpretation. PK related edges is the wrong answer since obviously this is skewed towards certain race/class combinations not to mention that some roles do not allow for PKs at all.

I'M ALL EARS!

"Please suggest a better way for any character to get edge points that is not open to subjective interpretation."

Hours played. Levels gained. Observation and exploration xp, but capped at very low maximums (such that almost everybody will hit the max by just going about their business, i.e. no need to grind).

I actually like the subjectively awarded points because I think the staff's subjective judgements are usually pretty good. That said, it leads to imm xp whoring, and some characters just have bad play times in terms of staff being online. So I'd set a very low maximum on this as well. Maybe 2000 xp (combined) for role xp, imm xp, and tatoo. Would need to juice the points-per-xp ratio for imm xp if you moved the cap so low.

nt

"Please attempt to justify your suggestion."

Sorry. I just couldn't help myself <3

nt

1) You ass. I should have known you'd catch me on that ####.

2) Wow like hardly any recent trannie PBFs at all. Shocking, honestly. Urge to roll lowbie murdermuter rising.

3) You were the ONLY PBF'd trannie in the last 2 years that didn't take that edge, heh. Granted small sample sizes and all...but it leads to believe it's a relative no brainer choice.

As for why added into existing class...makes Jolt useful spell at all levels instead of just lowbie levels. Confuse affect isn't game-breaking (unless you're Jalim/Torak and can't handle dying to me).

the jolt effect worked I think twice in over 20 pks. It got nerfed pretty hard after starbright's tranny I think.

I had good luck with Iztatsin (drow) post Wujin

nt

As someone that has recently returned, I personally would probably like to see the flexibility in edges remain. All in all I have played 2 characters that I can remember where edges were an option (Maybe they just came out when I stopped playing but maybe not)

If a particular combination is always taking edge X, Y and Z I think the thing here is it does encourage a level of interaction with the environment in some way PK, Explore, Observation etc. So that this can be taken, but lets say for instance that a mace spec got skull crusher by default then this may saw to the PK side to much.

I thoroughly enjoyed the exploration side of things and the observation side of things coming back. Hell in the last 20-30 hrs of my life I went to areas that from what I could tell there was really no need to go to because they were sub level 40 but found some pretty cool stuff along the way.

If there were changes to be made I would like the following to be taken into consideration:
1. Perhaps only the edges that might make life a little less draining a good example reading it again is Tune as Talisin mentioned its not overly powerful but it drops the chore of the player base. Or the healer example so you can bless and frenzy while wearing weapons/shields. But don't include anything that increases PK strength.
2. If a change is made please consider how it is introduced Kregan was on the edge of the old/new system for edge points. The problem in the halving is those that had been round for 2-3 month prior most likely had maxed everything out. So those situational items and taking edges cause the points were just there. The problem then is to a degree is a ceiling is put in place that does create an advantage one side has versus the other.
3. If an edge is to be rolled in I think it should become a skill, and infact perhaps this could be argued with most edges in general. That way a mace spec does not go from ok cranial to cranial that bashes your head in instead this fighting method is slowly learned. But this is probably a lot more background code and perhaps not the intent of what is being asked.
4. Don't discount the little rewards the edge system gives along the way, I have no idea if some of the edges I picked were good or bad, but having the flexibility to pick some of them gave me some great ideas for 3-4 other roles I now want to try. For someone new to the system it is good to be able to take the occasional clanger as well as the ones that sound really good.
5. All in all tho from my limited experience I think let the dust settle for a while and see where things go.
6. As a side note perhaps some of the help files need to be looked at. I took the read lips edge cause from the help file it appeared I would be able to "hear" tells etc. But in all honesty it appeared to be a complete and utter waste. (See item 5 one of my clangers in taking it kind of eliminated something else I thought would be awesome which to a degree means I don't waste time trying to achieve something later down the track. I like long lived characters investing 80 hrs or so just to throw it away annoys me and I would only do it for so long)

I don't favor making it an innate ability for everyone, but I would probably take twitchy on any character that isn't a Tribunal, Thief, Assassin, Duergar or Emperor.

Not worth the huge cost.

Place holder to remind me when I'm at my pc.

I'll give some suggestions for Paladins and Invokers when I get home.

After looking at all the edges, I really only take two consistently.

Fast Deshield - This is a must due to the fact that you need to change your shield quickly in combat depending on your enemies tactic. Normal deshield takes too long to make it worthy for combat.

Demielemental Transcendence - This is an edge I take every time, I'd like to see this maybe a lelvel 51 skill or something. That may be reaching... Though, personally I would like to see 7 path invokers go away and be specialized in at most a few elements and have littler or no affinity in others. Much more on that idea, but not on this thread.

Banisher of the Taint – It already costs 100 mana, why does it have to fail so much?

Sacred Word - It costs 100 mana and 200 mvmt to give bless and frenzy. It is holy word (I.E. vocal). The root cause is perhaps bless, which can easily become a word of mouth action too.

Burning Brimstone - It is an AoE spell with two rounds of lag. If it weren't for this edge I wouldn't use it. Avenger's Strike of Faith trumps it (especially with the AoE edge). Marshal's fend trumps it. As a monk I would intensify for the defense/offense instead if I'm going to lag myself. Perhaps Sword and Board may use it, but I still would choose two focused wraths than 2 round AoE. Immolatation in hopes of finishing them off if they run is the reason I use it. Also, it fails often against PK.

Crippling Defense & Mass Deliverance - This is money for avengers... Hilt smash and this are always wanted. AoE hits for SoF is money.

Divine Might - It boosts damage roll and can cure diseases/poisons more often, a must have.

I can't speak to the shield ones, but I know most shield dedicates try to get them all.

All the monk & champion specific edges should be worked into the class. (A joke!)

I had actually considered a solution along these lines a couple days ago and thought about posting it. I eventually didn't because I'm not sure I want to see a change.

The reason that got me thinking about it was now that there are less edge points it means we as players are more likely taking the "must-have" edges and there are a lot of niche edges going unpicked. I wondered if the solution would be to remove the "must-have" edges and leave the niche ones.

The problem I see is that which edges fall into which category? I've been trying to think of some as you requested and am having a tough time with it, with the exception of some warrior spec edges.

For instance, if I am playing mace spec I'm probably most definitely taking balanced percussionist and skull crusher. Or reckoning of the mongoose for a dagger spec, and seven winds for a sword.

Otherwise, look at the suggestions that are being made. I certainly don't consider some of those must-haves and there are a wide variety of suggestions.

There are a lot of edges that would be nice to pick but I won't because the situations where they are useful are just too rare for me to justify wasting the edgepoints on it. Like Strong Memory or Possessive or something. It makes me wonder if edges like these are really what edges should be.

I think you might also have some disagreement when things are niche customization or must-haves. Some seem like they could go both ways depending on the player or how a build will be played for certain edges. Maybe the conjie edges are a good example of this? You get to pick which servitors you want to buff, and there are several directions you can go with this, which kind of makes it niche. But, most likely every conjie will pick one of them.

Actually I doubt Sacred word is super popular, but I don't understand why this edge was introduced and Holy word was made no longer able to be communed without a free hand.

By no means does Holy word seem too powerful, it's basically just a damage area commune with a very high mana cost. So no one is going to just spam it without very quickly struggling for mana, and normally (without the edge) you must also forgo either parry or shield block (or both in some cases). Aren't there like a zillion other similar area damage spells with a fraction of HW's mana cost?

Thus my proposal is that Sacred word be reincorporated back into Holy word.

Sacred word could instead decrease the mana cost of Holy word, and probably otherwise improve it a bit.

And while on the subject of Holy word, its help file (see below) has an odd sentence at the end "Due to its awesome power..." (heh): I don't recall it ever draining xp. Also as an area commune the targeted syntax seems redundant.

Also, IIRC sometimes as the victim you get an echo of "You feel hope abandon you!", but as far as I can tell this never did anything, so maybe someone could explain what that means in the help file? Is it -morale or what?


'HOLY WORD' (418)

Syntax: commune 'holy word'
commune 'holy word' <victim>

The nature of this prayer is truly a powerful one. Once spoken from the lips
of one who has devoted his life to clerical study, it unleashes a burst of
spells aimed at both offense and defense. Frenzy and bless are cast upon
each member of the group and a word of wrath is released upon any oppositely
aligned creature in the room. Due to its awesome power, it requires of the
caster a drain of experience to compensate for its use of mana.

I gave my ONE below, but want to offer a few thoughts.

Edges are fun and for me have been one of the better things added to the game for me personally. Having played this game a long time, perhaps I do not have the perspective on not knowing/obtaining how to get more edges.

It does not have to be edges, but I personnally like going back to my guildmaster at hero (and other ranks) and finding out I can learn/discuss something new based on something I did (obs, explore, rp, pk, etc.). I think the new wand system for example is awesome for this.

I do not mind the area obs/explore "grind" as I find new things and discover things all the time. I know others hate this and can understand this. I for one find it is something to do in the slow times.

I am glad I do not have to be the one to keep everyone happy (impossible) or even a majority. So thanks Umiron for helping keep this game great. I am not one to dislike change for change sake. That being said, I love edges and if not edges then what else are we to do to improve (additional customization we can control to some degree) our characters at higher levels. Edges were/are a way for characters to continue to seek something. I do not play nor expect imm rewards, but it was nice to chase edge points through obs/explore/pk/rp etc. It always gave something additional to achieve.

My two cents from a long time veteran.

maybe also take a look at some of the more lackluster inherents (yeah, lavawalk I am looking at you).

For example, under the 'new' reduced system I've had to bypass edges that I used to consider "mandatory" for edges that I REALLY REALLY wanted - and it makes a difference. I think you went in the right direction by increasing the value on edges (by decreasing edge point totals). However, won't 'rolling' some of these in just lessen the value of edges again in essence? Since really we'd have the 'mandatory' ones by default?

gr

I am good with whatever edge decisions are made I just wish they'd stop changing costs and methods of obtaining points. It gets frustrating when things were an option last week so you make a character around the assumption that is how it will be this week but then it isn't.

Thanks for including us in the process and sorry for being a turd.

To my knowledge we've only adjusted the cost of three edges in the last year (possibly longer). I increased the cost of Golem Guardian and lowered the cost of Roll the Bones / Spin the Wheel.

Likewise, I believe my changes back in December were the only significant changes to how edge points are accumulated in a number of years.

EDIT: The way I read your post that you were suggesting we've been mucking with this stuff on a regular basis, which I don't think is true. However, I write this with every intention of doing some edge surgery in the coming weeks/months, so in that sense I suppose your feelings aren't wholly unjustified.

Nobody really gives them out otherwise, or if they do it is with the same rarity as quest form/3rd legacies.

We don't need more edgepoint nerfs.

Girded Shield - it's a quality of life change that is necessary, it really doesn't last long enough without it. If you're a low-mana race, say a giant shaman, you'd be a fool not to take it. It's also the one thing you really don't want dispelled so helping that, is nice.

Steal sight - an Anti-paladin's number one weakness is being blinded. This is your way of dealing with that weakness, and you generally want to blind your opponents anyways. Every single AP I've had took this and it was worth it's weight in gold (especially when you steal sight after eyejab and that bastard tries to disarm you).



There are other situational ones where I say "duh" (like ghost of the dune for a bedouin) but those were off the top of my head that should just be included into the class.

Some others I feel that meet the bill are racial edges (zealot of the one law, sage defense, etc) - usually they merit using the points and I feel they should be an inherit change to the class/race combo system. If you're playing that gnome warrior or half-elf anti-paladin or some other bastard combo, give him some loving.

nt

There are a few edges (such as spine of the akragaka) that are absoloute first priority, and after those there are edges that depend on who's in my range. I'd onlty take steal sight if I was fighting shamans often, and even then I'd want to take sightbinder first or possibly resistant sight rather than the two of them. For fighting flail specs or dirt-happy warriors I'd sooner take shield eyes. Having lost a 19 charge weapon/character to dirt/disarm once I also no longer stick around in a fight after being dirt kicked/disarmed, hoping for blindness to land is far too big a gamble.

And when you need it, you need it. Whenever you can't flee, and blind, bad things happen. Sunray, eyejab, dirt, whatever... steal sight is a must.

It used to be my favorite edge but more recently there are just lots of chars you won't be landing the blind on.

Honestly you want to do your best to never ever be in a situation where you're blind and can't flee. You get more mileage from edges that aren't for situations you're doing your utmost to avoid.

Steal sight is great for fighting shamans though, and I'd still pick it if I had shamans in my range.

...a broken/too good edge. As you say, blindness is a big handicap, but not just for APs but for most people. Giving them a "free" way to deal with one of their weaknesses, which not only cures yourself but ALSO blinds your foe, is just... gross.

I'd say this ability would maybe be ok on someone like a healer, but not on an offensive maledictory machine like an AP is, let alone all APs having it by default.


>Steal sight - an Anti-paladin's number one weakness is being
>blinded. This is your way of dealing with that weakness, and
>you generally want to blind your opponents anyways. Every
>single AP I've had took this and it was worth it's weight in
>gold (especially when you steal sight after eyejab and that
>bastard tries to disarm you).

Which shamans get along with most A-P maledictions and a whole bunch of others besides.

Steal sight is only ever useful in very specific circumstances and even then the chances of it actually working are quite low.

Most of your enemies will save vs your blind at hero. You could maybe move it to hero.

You won't build a big weapon if you rely on steal sight, because it will fail you against anyone with decent saves most of the time.

Also, your enemy has to be a certain strength for it to work. You can't just switch on aura of despair and blind whatever mob gets aggro on you.

AP:
Controlling Grasp
Pretty much all the racial edges.

Bard:
Perfect Pitch
Feign Weakness (I would make this a toggle skill, feign strength or weakness.)

Berserker:
Adaptation specific edges
Slaver

Conjurer:
Reconsider how to do specializations so they aren't edge based.

Druid:
Zero experience, couldn't say.

Healer:
Awakened spirit
Planeskipper
Remedy Pestilence

Invoker:
Fast deshield
Combat elementalist
Racial edges.
I know Daev wanted invokers to specialize instead of being 7 pathers or else gimped due to laziness.

Necromancer:
Charnel sanctum and cryptborn should just be inherent to the nature of the class.
Zombie lord

Paladin:
Bladed barrier
Virtue specific edges

Ranger:
No experience.

Shaman:
Inquisitor
Master of Affliction
Diametric Opposition

Shapeshifter:
Form type specific edges.

Thief:
Path combo edges.
Swindler
Getaway

Transmuter:
Dimension edges
Bewildering jolt
Adrenamancer
Perfect self

Warrior:
Spec specific edges
Regen edges

nt

How about making Ghost of the Dunes a power-up to Dervishes as a whole? As in, it's a part of the Dervish Dance now inherently? In the same vein, maybe make it three hits regardless of vision?

Justification: Currently, the desert terrain seems very lacking (and yes, I'm biased). If it were me, I'd make Sandswirl work anywhere reliably, much like Vanish with Smoke and Mirrors now does. Not adding to killing ability, but making a completely unused skill suddenly a fix to the terrain, plus it makes sense IC. Why couldn't a bedouin throw some sand in the air while he makes the escape? But you'd never go for it, so I merely propose a three-hit dervishdance. Not OP by any means, but a requirement on all bedouins nonetheless. I challenge you to find anyone who wouldn't want to take it, thus making it perfect for a basic class ability.

I think these two make a pretty clear cut case of being added to the class as a default. Having to waste an extraordinary amount of edge points purely based on luck or lack thereof is unfair to poor sad gnome shifters.

I have not seen to many successful orcs that did not have this one.

There are so many more to list (wood elf edges, pikeman's valor for polearm warriors, etc.), but if I must name one I will go with slaver for orcs.

and isn't this skill next to impossible to learn without skill learn?

Azhag had 87% enslave with no spam, no skill learn, not much oily skin harvesting. It goes up fine.

Someone asked my and I parsed my logs. I don't think I skill learned enslave and if I did I didn't actually get anything from it. It does seem to be VERY level dependent. I basically couldn't improve in the 30's but it went up just fine in the 40's.

Just sharing because I've seen it repeated a few times.

Azhag only had a 50% ratio, but Nargash was sitting pretty at 83%

It's just crazy not to take that one.

That this is precisely why it should come at a price.

It is too strong to just hand out. In fact, assassin edges in general seem kind of strong.

Rather, I think you need to tone those edges down a bit.

If people take then they are giving up other edges. If you make the part of the base they are not.

Edges like seven winds are too good. If everyone takes them, they are obviously "mispriced".

The concept of edges and uniqueness is worth keeping but it won't work if they are not priced right.

Oh, some repricing and power adjustments are on my list too, don't worry.

What I'm focusing on here are the edges that regardless of cost or even a formula tweak are going to be chosen pretty much every single time. At that point, we're just piling on mechanical advantage on the haves and punishing the have-nots. In my opinion, that goes against one of the design goals of edges that was/is to encourage more customization and diversity so that not every X spec/path/whatever is the same.

Seven Winds is a good example of an edge that I wouldn't consider rolling into the warrior class, though.

That players have to make a choice between whether their edge points will come from pk or exploration/observation, but not both?

Someone then has a choice of being an explory type char and getting their edges that was, or a pk-type char and getting their edges that way.

The flaw in the whole edge plan was that someone designed to help those not really focussed on pk (obs and explore exp) ended up being farmed by those who are focussed on pk. I think my suggestion could address that.

You'd probably need to tweak some edge requirements so that those that have an observation or exploration exp requirement (say) don't continue to do so. IF I take twitchy as an example, maybe an explore type character can get the edge at an earlier level than a pk type character, but a pk type character can get something like kansetsuwaza adept at an earlier level than an explore type character.

Or, rather than make classes have more in their standard, maybe give everyone some starting edge points, so that they can customise their characters a little even if they suck at accrueing edge points?

Whole point of the game is RP/PK/Exploration - having to 'choose' what you get rewarded for lessens the rest of the experience. What does Joe PK'r do when his range is nada? he logs off - right now Joe PK'r can go and explore/enhance his game during PK downtimes (more frequent than they used to be)

>What does Joe PK'r do when his range is nada? he
>logs off - right now Joe PK'r can go and explore/enhance his
>game during PK downtimes (more frequent than they used to be)

You mean: "He can go grind up some explore / observation xp".

Joe can still explore new areas that he legitimately hasn't been through before without the incentive of edge points for observation / exploration xp. Because he wants gear, preps, area knowledge he can later use for PK, etc.

Initially I was against the "choice" idea as well, but I warmed to it after thinking about it some more. My first reaction was, "This will exacerbate the problem of one-sided characters." But think about it:

If observation / exploration XP actually does motivate PK characters to "explore" (i.e. grind) then that's not actually a "benefit" to the game.

If edge points for PK actually motivated non-PK characters to participate in PK (and have success) then it would be beneficial, but I don't think it does that. The set of characters wishing to "opt out" of PK completely is generally not that good at PK, and generally know it. Ergo they know they won't amass very many wins, meaning the incentive to participate is correspondingly smaller.

My one concern with the "choice" strategy is that it shoe-horns a character for life. Maybe I think I'm going to be all about exploring, then decide mid-way through the characters life that I want to spend more time on PK. Etc.

Also: allowing the choice would necessitate re-balancing the point rewards (for PK and for observation / exploration xp) for certain classes. Consider healer. If healers get the same # of edge points for PK and observation/exploration as every other class, then no healer is ever going to choose the PK path. But if healers got more points-per-PK than, say, warriors, then some probably would.

The rule would need to be: If you take player A who's aces at exploring and is going to spend all his time exploring, and player B who's aces at PK and is going to spend all his time PKing, and both of them play the same class, then they should ultimately acrrue approximately the same # of edge points. You don't want one choice to be "obviously better" than the other one, for a given class, or everybody who plays that class will choose that particular path.

yeah, there are some fights where I know I am going to win - period. I don't generally try to multikill. Even Daev's view of what constitutes multikilling is much more accepting of multikilling than my own. Now, make it my only way to get edge points? and I may change my tune.

I've been wondering why edge points arent tied into character longevity more. Two chars at 200 hours should have a similar amount of edge points imo, with maybe a little variation. It is crazy that someone who knows everything about CF not only have that advantage over newer players, their characters also have a ton of edges the new players can only dream of affording.

My suggestion would be something along the line of this: Imagine the amount of edge points an extremely well rewarded pk and explore character that age-dies at 600 hours amassed. Make something like 75% of that come just from ageing and the rest from pk/explore/immexp etc. So no matter what you do, when you near age-death you will have a similar amount of edge points as anyone else but if you are really good at one or many aspects of the game you can earn that little extra edge over the masses.
The problem I can see is how you balance this for different races since they have different lifespans.

That should lessen the need to explore for those that dislike it. Lessen the impact of being crappy at pk like some of us. Reward actually keeping a character around for a little longer, it's not like age-death is a common thing.

So, what would be the drawbacks of something like this?

to a point where they had what they wanted, and then continue on. Rewarding edge points for pretty much nothing (sorry, but hrs in doesn't matter - its what you DO with those hours) doesn't seem like such a good idea.

I don't think points for longevity is super-abusable, depending on when you give them out. Someone who bots the first 400 hours of his character in order to get the longevity points will have given up a bunch of other points along the way by virtue of not having done anything over that entire period.

And if some sad dolt actually did idlebot *boggle* for hundreds of hours for some measly edge points, who cares? That wouldn't break the game. Besides, the imms could slap some negative points (with an appropriate echo) on such a character when they notice it, and at the least the idler would risk getting PK'd.

If literally everybody takes a certain edge then that edge isn't the cause of the mechanical advantage delta between "haves" and "have nots". Because we stipulated that everybody takes that edge.

What creates a game-play delta between the "haves" and "have nots" is that in addition to that certain edge (which both groups take) the "haves" have enough points to take a bunch of other edges as well.

One other thought:

One way to look at edges that are "must haves" but carry a minimum imm xp requirement is that they're empowerment for non-empowerment classes. Devious Versatility comes to mind.

It's very cheap, and takes the tune skill from being nearly useless to very useful. I can't imagine any bard not taking it.

I see it being a bit different the problem with tune is in a way you are assuming all bards want to use instruments, and I kind of see that at the moment there are two possible customization streams for bards.

But say for instance it was:
- Perfect Pitch (For Instruments)
- Dancer (For non instruments)

Both relatively cheap.

Well this could work. But this kind of breaks what is being asked more than one. Further to this the other issue is you kind of make people choose what they are going to do instrument wise so the edge is applied. Which eliminates potential for someone to have a valid reason that they cannot use instruments anymore.

Dancer is moderately expensive. And you'd also want proficient vocalist to even make it worthwhile.

AND, even if you plan on fighting with a staff or a shield, every bard is still going to take Perfect Pitch (since it's so incredibly cheap) for buffing, singing up slept opponents, etc.