Ok, so I'm going to try to keep this short and sweet. First some ground rules. You can follow up to ask questions. You can follow up to comment nicely. Do not follow up to make accusations about specific characters (active or not).

This post is purely about my observations. I don't claim that it's the end-all-be-all. But it's "inside info" on the Hell/Tiamat groups from someone who was most definitely not part of any OOC ring.

Major Finding: The general gist is - no rule was broken.

Edited to add this part that I forgot: Ulthrok was IMMEDIATELY accepted by every Imperial, once he proved he was worth accepting. By that I mean...it's hard to know if that level 25 fire giant warrior is going to stick it out when he gets wrathed down by a paladin while a thief is tripping him or whatever. Same as in any cabal. But once you prove you're perhaps a veteran, people start to take notice. If you are leveling up without major problems, not whining over CB, have solid donation amounts, etc. you move up pretty quick. Once I was in hero levels, everyone else in that range (heroes or near heroes) was very willing to level me up, get gear, etc. This was my first thing I wanted to look for - would I be an "outsider" to some OOC cheat ring, or would I be included on Tiamat trips and so on. I was always included. Resoundingly. I imagine if I had screwed stuff up for everyone, that might have changed, but hey that's fair.

Perhaps some of the players who are/were part of the group(s) that took down Tiamat and went through the Inferno know each other IC. Quite possibly. Everything I was a part of, however, was coordinated IC. Notes from various people to schedule times to take down Tiamat etc. were the norm, and largely seemed to depend on times that various very important support characters could make it. You aren't taking down Tiamat without a healer, for instance.

Shady-looking-logins. I can only comment on one particular one, because it directly involved me. I'd been fending off Adesoka at the Council for a while (got my first solo kill on him by hiding, hiding, cowering, and then finally chasing him down to finish when he pushed too hard).

He rested inside, of course, and so I did the same thing. Then Milonuthial came to help him, and I knew I was in trouble. I'd sent a lower level Imperial to buy me more holy waters, but I was pretty sure I was going to die or have to flee. I decided to try to focus on the healer.

And then Sindrir logged in. Right at the Council. He didn't react as quickly as I'd have liked, to be honest, but he reacted way quicker than I would have in similar circumstances. Does that make sense? Anyways, I'll post the log of it later.

Let me be perfectly clear. I do not know who plays Sindrir. I did not contact an OOC buddy and tell him "Dood logon and be ready to pinz00rz!"

However, from Adesoka/Milonuthial's point of view? I'd be peeved, and think that was HELLA fishy.

Regarding "perma groups". Every single character that was part of the party that killed Tiamat (and, later, that I went to the Inferno with) was on at some point when it was just them and Ulthrok. For extended periods of time.

I know that folks in general are thinking that maybe there isn't any OOC communication other than "We should play Empire next. I'll do (insert class/race combo) and you do (other race/class combo)." Maybe there is that going on. But that is not technically against the rules.

If there were anything I might say about the whole experience, I'd say that maybe the Imperials were a bit too chummy in general. Cross-sect cooperation wasn't really tense at all (Ulthrok got promoted to Elite Blade by the High Priest (though to be fair I did save his life from Liantae at the cost of my own, and then we killed Liantae later together)), stuff like that. But I think that's a player trait (that I share) of wanting competant allies and not wanting to annoy your fellow players.

So, that's my story. Again, follow up if you like, but no character assassination, speculation, that sort of thing. If you feel a rage face that Twist is SO WRONG about this, feel free to shoot me an email or whatever, but I don't want this thread to start a flame-war.

Thanks.

I mean, Ulthrok/Ulcia... You came around at the same time, seemed to be following each other up in the ranks, reached hero almost same time, and at least at the young days, you where often around both of you, when I was around...

Never could tell you apart :)

I did promote Ulthrok yes, and no - I can also say for sure that I didnt know it was Twist that played him, nor do I have any contact with Twist.

If people showed competence in some way to me, I would aid them for the benefit of the Empire. A healer cannot kill many people alone, unless they fought a undead first (Goraldine *wink*)... But when a blade offered his life for me, and we managed to take down Liantae, well... If that wasnt worth a cross sect promotion, I dont know what was... Also, I did tell Ulthrok that it would cost him a favour at some point...

Well, he ruled in your favor, I would say it's repaid!

-Coordinating via in-game note is basically going to be the norm from now on considering a previous group was broken up for not sending an in-game note.

-I don't think any other groups were very inclusive, most grab anyone competent. Especially a Twist warrior whose built for damage ;)

-I particularly don't care about groups that try the Inferno. You know my opinion on it, it's pretty much close to required if ya want to do the things that group did (pit fiends, Tiamat, etc... real exploration). I think people had more of a beef with the pain train rolling around which kills the competitiveness of the game. I could care less if someone goes and gets <shiny object>, but when 5on1 is your only option to get it you get tired of trying.

-Also just think Ulthrok was pretty late on the scene and their act cleaned up more by then (well, most don't even show up anymore unless it is an event). Some were removed... and some are dying off now.

I've never sent in a complaint or anything, just observations along the sidelines.

If the purpose of a dodgy log in is to save an ooc buddy, they won't need to do it when twist is on because he can already protect whoever is in trouble, and might not bother risking it to save his ass, for someone they don't already know ooc.

In the cases I've observed there's been more to it than simply the logging on. There's been communication between characters who no longer had the means to communicate in the game as well as the interesting log on. But this was all some time ago now. It does indeed look as if they've had their fill.

>-Coordinating via in-game note is basically going to be the
>norm from now on considering a previous group was broken up
>for not sending an in-game note.

It would probably be best to keep it IC as much as possible, yes. Notes are a good way to do that.

>-I don't think any other groups were very inclusive, most grab
>anyone competent. Especially a Twist warrior whose built for
>damage ;)

One consideration I did have is that I may have given away who was playing Ulthrok due to my giant-speech which was nearly identical to how Hunsobo spoke. And, you know, giant sword warrior (but I almost didn't take sword!)

>-I particularly don't care about groups that try the Inferno.
>You know my opinion on it, it's pretty much close to required
>if ya want to do the things that group did (pit fiends,
>Tiamat, etc... real exploration). I think people had more of a
>beef with the pain train rolling around which kills the
>competitiveness of the game. I could care less if someone goes
>and gets <shiny object>, but when 5on1 is your only option to
>get it you get tired of trying.

This seems accurate.

>-Also just think Ulthrok was pretty late on the scene and
>their act cleaned up more by then (well, most don't even show
>up anymore unless it is an event). Some were removed... and
>some are dying off now.

Quite possibly.

>I've never sent in a complaint or anything, just observations
>along the sidelines.

A couple of us 5 or 6 years ago got in a lot of trouble for doing basically no more than what some in this group did, less than that even. Saying you go roll this, I'll roll this, and we will just play our characters. The only difference between what we did and what these characters did is we did not send an in game note the night of 1 single hell trip. But we got a huge hammer brought down on us, and I doubt we were even half as detrimental to any power swinging in our one trip as these guys were in their several over time. I know you remember, because you were the dude that dished out the punishment to me :) I still got to go with other characters after, but making a hell dream team was clearly a no go back then. I don't really care if people make groups to explore hell though. I care when they act like we're stupid for calling it what it is.

Personally I am glad hell is still open. I hope more people take a shot at it, it's a fun area. Too big of a time investment for me to bother with it anymore though. CF is more fun with the area open though.

No worries about the pain train anyways. It went on for a while, but players get enough of that crap eventually and roll the other side to put a stop to it. Fortress at the moment has a fairly solid lineup and I am willing to bet a lot of it is because they wanted to fight imperials. Poor battle all but died though :(

Thanks for the report.

I think what most people see isn't egregious OOC cheating, but it's more just this sequence that can get frustrating and tiring:

-Hero Range is a goodie, two outlanders, and a trib
-Imperial Support Character logs in
-20 mins later, hero range is a goodie, an outlander, and 6 imperials.

When that happens consistently, it has people jump to conclusions, but I realise that from the other side it looks altogether different.

Thanks again for the transparency.

>Thanks for the report.
>
>I think what most people see isn't egregious OOC cheating, but
>it's more just this sequence that can get frustrating and
>tiring:
>
>-Hero Range is a goodie, two outlanders, and a trib
>-Imperial Support Character logs in
>-20 mins later, hero range is a goodie, an outlander, and 6
>imperials.

Yeah, this definitely happened at times. Other times it'd be me and one other Imperial for my entire login. Generally you almost prefer that - you'll get more pk action. I do think that when you've got a couple people who have the same playing times that both play the same cabal, it makes that cabal pretty strong pretty quick. I always like to use the example of Waserax and Hunsobo (shaman and fire warrior). We didn't coordinate OOC or anything, but we were pretty steady in our playtimes, so some probably saw us as a permagroup.

>When that happens consistently, it has people jump to
>conclusions, but I realise that from the other side it looks
>altogether different.
>
>Thanks again for the transparency.

Is compatible with your observations. The existence of a core group (outed by an insider) doesn't preclude taking others along when you go for gear.

I'd note that I never had an issue with ulthrok, even tho he hung with some of those on my list. That's because he wasn't on this list, which again, came from an insider.

The point of the group was to ensure support char availability, pool knowledge, and plan the approach.

What made it even worse is I'd just gotten back from a late dinner and I'd been drinking too much to cf. I logged in thinking it'd be quiet and I find a healer and a badass warrior at the council beating up my fire buddy. I fumbled with commands and aliases for the first bit but it worked out.

I believe my first words after they left were "this is going to be bad." I understand why people thought it was shady but it was just luck of the Irish (whiskey).

what can be done to make cf more competitive when it gets all roller-coaster-y? i don't want to play when it's 7 other imperials, whether that's as the opposition or on their team.

pve has a place.

playing with friends has a place.

fair pk has a place.

what are some imm-driven thoughts to balance those better when the mud is 20 players online?

myself?

i'm not fond of the current raid/retrieval system, i think it needs an overhaul, maybe even something more like the old days of the 90s (more CTF). or divvy up the cabal powers into multiple items that are quicker/easier yet still a challenge to get. for instance, sect guardians hold sect powers, or whilhemwhatever holds the item for spellbane and the D for deathblow but they're both a bit easier.

and items are no longer downed at cabals but at various totems or rifts in Thera.

just some ideas to get cf back to a quicker pace that 1v3 can participate better in.

...not really the point of this thread.

We'll keep your comments in mind (I share some of them) in our discussions though.

is that the feeling of opposition cheating is psychologically influenced when things seem to always be against you or are against you.

my little brother used to always yell at Final Fantasy, that it cheated, when he tried to do things too low level and he'd just get waxed. it wasn't cheating, it was just that feeling and outlet becomes so exasperated when the odds are so uneven. and that's what i feel happens too easily in current CF, cheating is just the word/mentality some resort to

you guys rock, love the changes and tweaks that have been implemented lately.

**apologies for tense-butchering above : )

Bandwagoning sucks almost as much as outright cheating so a solution to the overall issue would be great. Thanks for rolling to investigate.

>Bandwagoning sucks almost as much as outright cheating so a
>solution to the overall issue would be great. Thanks for
>rolling to investigate.


Honestly I think one of the biggest reasons bandwagoning appears more serious now than it used to is the lower playerbase. If there are 3 Imperial heroes on, that's pretty much a guarantee that Empire's going to be strong. In days past, only 3 Imperial heroes meant they were in the minority.

... When you roll a char, you set your estimated rough playing hours. Then suggestions (or hard forced?) cabal choices are put forward and shown. Showing which cabals will accept more members or not.

Say if there's 20 outlanders and 20 imperials, but 15 of the imperials play around 18-22, and the other 5 play 6-12.

The outlanders have it equal say 10 on each side, then it will show that if your playing hours are between 18-22 the imperials will not accept a new member.

Just a thought, matching playing hours with oposition and cabal balance etc.

I know, it's a super complex thought and it's easy to circumvent. Perhaps there should be an ingame reading that continiously monitors the login times and cycles for all chars and changes the "preset" logon-hours every week depending on the actual outcome, to make it harder to circumvent.

I really appreciate you looking into stuff like this, thanks.