So instead of potentially losing some of the good points that are brought up by people and their concerns with retrieval vs Outlander in that other thread, I figured a new one makes more sense.

Now then, the single biggest gripe I recall ever hearing about in regards to retrieval from Outlander has nothing to do with the layout of Prosimy or insects. It has always been that the defenders of the cabal can just sit around in chameleon without ever needing to reveal themselves so you never know if there are 0 or 100 guys waiting to defend.

So that begs the question: Is it the layout of Prosimy that makes it impossible to retrieve or is it the insects from one of the leaders or is it the fact that chameleon is arguably too good at giving the home team and advantage?

Soon as we can actually figure out the primary concern, it becomes a lot easier to brainstorm ideas to try and fix it.

And a little more gamey...

Have you also thought about looking to balance out raiding as well?

Right now there are certain cabal inners that are VERY VERY hard for a solo raiding to take out with no defenders around. Maybe scale up how much inner guardians fire off their skills/spells/communes based on how many people are raiding? You could kind of use an inverse of the code to reward retrieval xp and make the inners fire less when there is no one and make the inners fire more when there are multiple opponents.

There isn't one specific problem that is giving defenders too much trouble. Low level defenders can usually escape unless they come in without any thought or preparation. Bioempathy makes this much more difficult though. I'm not sure what Trepidation does. It's rare that low level folks have to deal with insects though, so that isn't too bad. The walk is quite draining on MV but as you all said, Battle doesn't have to retrieve from there so that can be covered with all sorts of magic. Surprise matchups can be rough but there is the "count" command to know how many people are unseen and you can always ask any thieves or rangers the question about who they see.

I've done a few Tribunals in the past and always weighed my chances at going to the Tree and although I did get attacked many times, I think I only died a hand full there and that was very likely to happen regardless of insects. Overall I think it's a fairly well balanced place but can agree that having an extra trail leading from one area to the road could be a nice reprieve that adds to the courage of retrievers.

On the other hand, it certainly isn't anywhere near the killbox of centurions placed south of you, and a possible second set, and summoners, trappers, shamans, poison weapons, bleeding, or any number of horrible things, trapper immolation being the worst, that you could experience in Imperial Lands as a villager. Immolation trap and centurions will outright kill 8 out of 10 villagers without the head.

“You can be a king or a street sweeper, but everybody dances with the Grim Reaper.”
―Robert Alton Harris

The cabal should be moved. If the only reason to keep it there is because "hardly anyone would go to that continent if it wasn't" then perhaps some opportunities for an area revamp? It's a horrible, horrible, horrible cabal location for a cabal with insects as a cabal power.

Once people know what's expecting them - they come without much hesitation, even if outnumbered. Many outlanders have trouble going back to the Tree, so once you know some of them are away - you just go and hit.

I've heard "I can't make it in time" on cabal channel just way too many times.

With ancient instincts outlanders should be back very fast, in most cases. You may actually be seeing reluctance rather than inability, in some cases.

And underestimating how fast the outlander guardians die.

You are also leaving out the fact that secret paths are not always 100% available to every character with AI.

Being able to get to the cabal fast is not easy street for many builds

the huntress has a lot fewer hitpoints. i used to be able to retrieve as a hero invoker and it would die in 4 pillars of heaven (no guards, just pillar + invoker melee + a prog here or there).

on the flip side, even with AI and AI 100% it takes a while to get back. i don't think i've ever made it back in time from western continent even with special pathways or other secret before the huntress died to a group of 2 or more retrieving at hero.

But in that situation we still have either:
A) a situation where you camp and they get ganked,
B) you camp and get ganked because they came with overwhelming force expecting more campers than were actually there
C) a good fight, which you probably would get anyway if they knew you were on.

So I still like the solution of any cabal without their item being able to tell who in the cabal with their item is on, whilst in their own cabal hq

They are essentially always there. I grant you that not everyone will find a large number but the cabal tends to result in most members having most ai spots.

If my bard could it it on foot I'm not sure why any other build couldn't. My Druid of course could just bird form.

I can tell how many outlanders will be defending just by using the who and count commands. You just need to learn how to do it. If I can do it, anyone can do it.

I think I've pointed out that your approach still results in fewer good fights?

Also that your approach doesn't allow for periods when numerous hidden lowbies are around, which is sometimes the case.

My approach is not constrained by anything more than a pc's willingness to look for the paths, given that those who lack knowledge of then often encounter them when being led by those in the know.

No this is how you get when you hate something alot, you think your approach is the best way and won't think anything but. You're not always right.

Not everyone stays hidden for long periods of time. Stop asking for shortcuts because things don't fit with your style of playing. You're making a big deal out of something that isn't. Stop saying if there are lot of hidden lowbies that you have no chance of finding out who else is hiding, because that's simply not true. Stop making things more difficult than they are.

Cause pretty much all the issues that he sees come down to either laziness (which shouldn't be encouraged) or are wayyyy overblown.

The AI teleport to the continent is one good example that he brought up,
it sounds nice in theory but it plays out differently in practice.
He'd know that if he had actually done it.

Daurwyn: Now that you can no longer play one scion after another, why don't you start playing some outlanders instead? ;pppp

>Cause pretty much all the issues that he sees come down to
>either laziness (which shouldn't be encouraged) or are wayyyy
>overblown.
>

Sort of.

Elf bard. Desabarun or something.
Druid (lyristeon follower)
Elf healer (no empowerment or induction but trucked on for a long time).

Might have been another Druid in there too.'

And I played the innis paladin that worked with outlanders back when paladins were their enemies.

Which is, I believe, more than the scion or scion affiliates I've played.


So, let me explain. I was never referring to any teleport to the continent. I was referring to simply running there on foot via shortcuts, both outlander only and those anyone can take. You have minimal lag moving through wilds and don't normally have to take many steps to get back compared with a non outtie char on foot.

You refer to laziness but as, unlike many outlanders, I'm not scared to get wanted, I know that wanted people can't get into the inn.

You'll probably note that I have at no pint said the imperial change is bad. It's not. It's a good change for similar reasons to why having two exits from outtie would be good. Ask yourself this. If it makes so little difference, as you claim, why do you care?

I've played every cabal roughly equally and unlike some don't always argue for what suits me.

>The AI teleport to the continent is one good example that he
>brought up,
>it sounds nice in theory but it plays out differently in
>practice.
>He'd know that if he had actually done it.
>

I know precisely how it works. I also know in practice that it's not required and I wasn't talking about it.


>Daurwyn: Now that you can no longer play one scion after
>another, why don't you start playing some outlanders instead?
>;pppp

Because I've played them as much as I have scion and I have already agreed with Jalim that my next will be a shield pally?

Now that you've exposed your ignorance, why don't you explain why two exits from the prosimy would be such a bad thing?

So you played 3 outlanders, many years ago, from what I gather.
Maybe you should try playing another one, and see how things stand, *today*.

2 exits is going to severely weaken an already weak cabal without
doing *anything* to improve things on the raid/retrieval side. Seriously.
The same people who are scared of outlander today and use any excuse
at their disposal to practically eliminate _all_ risk to them, will keep on doing
the same, 2 exits or not. The rest already know how to deal with the real issues.

If you weren't referring to the teleport, but simply the "paths", you're even more deluded that I thought you were.

I don't get the 'scared to get wanted' bit. I've clocked thousands of hours
playing outlander characters, and I never saw what you describe.
In fact, it's the opposite. All of the serial outlander players I know make it a
habit to get and stay wanted, it's like a badge of honor to us.

I like it so much in fact that I think hours being wanted should be visible in the PBF,
and it should be rewarded in some fashion, maybe automated maybe not.
Outlanders should have *incentives* to become and stay wanted and they should
be *penalized* for not doing so.

You're seeing things that aren't there or drawing conclusions from isolated
incidents and letting them cloud your judgment. You really should play another
outlander.

That I played the last, bearing in mind I can only play one day a week so each char lasts a long time calendar wise.

Only a few outlanders are willing to get wanted except when they hugely outnumber their enemy. With my last Druid I was having to take the scales on my own because the rest of the cabal didn't want to get flagged. Even as an applicant (since I could do it at level 38). That's why I suggested giving wanted outlanders a boost and non wanted ones a minor gimp. Only a matter of days and weeks ago.

The only thing I don't know about outlander is how the restructure changed it. But don't for a second try to claim that's made a big difference to the single exit from prosimy issue.

There's one of my outlanders that I even said on my death thread that I deleted because I got sucked into the camp and gank mentality.

Maybe the problem is the amount of prepping you have been doing? That could add enough time to stop you getting back.

NT

One of the points raised is fear of outlander camping. As an outlander I felt a need to camp because it just was impossible to go out and hunt and still be able to reach a retrieval attempt before it is over.

Every other cabal basically every class can word and be at their cabal in under a tick. While it lets people roam and defend it does get people moving which can give windows.

Though sometimes your totem is a further run than the refuge.

I often have recall points a long way from my cabal. I almost never had trouble getting back as a result of where my recall was. For example my elf bard outlander lived in darsylon iirc and still had no issues getting back.

It helps a lot to learn the outlander only shortcuts but also the shortcuts anyone can use.

Also, is it good for the game if you sit guarding against retrieval all the time? Arguably not.

"Also, is it good for the game if you sit guarding against retrieval all the time? Arguably not."

The challenge is you really have to decide if you want to defend or do something else, because there is no real gray area where you can try and do both.

When I know many people are camping the retrieval and accomplishing nothing, while I accomplish something (however minor). Of course with outlander your build may not allow you to determine that there's camping going on.

If your recall was Darsylon, unless the "thing" nearby was your personal "thing," there's just no way in hell you're getting back to defend in time. If it was yours, well, sure, that works for you but most people aren't so lucky (I didn't realize Darsylon was a legit outlander hometown).

It takes a long time to get back to the tree, against a single high damage retriever, you simply can't get there from anywhere farther than Hamsah. And since most outlanders are wanted, it may take even longer. YES, AI helps mitigate this, but no AI path (aside from using your thing) is as fast as charging down Eastern.

Darsylon to hardan wood to road north of Arkham, iirc.

For the last time I'm not talking about teleporting so stop talking about my personal thing!

Poor ragers, still getting the shaft as everyone gets more powerful around them.

Just a reminder provost sees Camo from city so at least he always knows defenders.

nt

NT

Provost (and Justiciar) receive acute vision from vigilance regardless of whether Tribunal has its item.

Which only proves my existence being that of an uninformed newbie :) I'm sorry :)

P.S. Oh and I used the idiom wrong, thought it was not "correct", but rather "you ended the argument in correct and hilarious fashion". Kinda made me look like an idiot, right? :)

I don't know of Provost, but as a Justiciar I could not use vigilance at all without the scales.

Provost can even raid with guards still and use vigilance without scales. Ironically, vindicator cannot. Always felt weird that vindicator was worse at retrieving.

There are a number of things.

The maze is a problem, not that it is overly difficult, but when you need to flee the fact that you have to asses where you are before you move means that small lag that allows others to catch you. This can be enough. But coupled with insects, the hunt this can be a death sentence, especially given the terrain advantages that Outlanders have IE if you make it out of the mini maze and try to run for it they will catch you. (yes Windwalk is chaotic only, but in all honestly how many play a neutral Outlander??)

Beyond this when looking at almost all other cabals, Empire, Scarab, Battle, Tribunal, Nexus once you flee from the outer guardian there are two ways you can go on a known path (Empire 3) which means you can flee and potentially throw them off with a choice of direction.

To be honest the right time (Not full moon) raiding against multiple outlanders is not so bad. BUT raiding against one person with the hunt or with insects its an easy death sentence. This IMHO is the biggest issue, I believe putting the cabal in an area outside the maze that has atleast two potential paths would fix most of the issues.

In the past I have done the whole who/count thing but when the count shows 35 people and you can see 23 of them it only gets you so far, having said that I really don't have an issue with chameleon. Infact the thing I like about it is once you figure out who is on if you have not seen them for a while atleast you know they probably aren't moving anywhere.

As a serial Tribby player, I've never been too upset at how hard retrieving or raiding the refuge is, as it has been nicely balanced, I think, between tribby's need to raid vs difficulty.

I've eaten alot of deaths going in as a lowbie, and running into sanced or invoker shielded opposition when I didn't know there was any opposition at all..... but I admit, some of that was just laziness....if I had gone in prepped to face 4 foes....if would have definitely survived, if not succeeded in retrieving.

The problem, is the low and midbie's who just aren't willing to risk facing unknown opposition....for the logical answer, is if you don't know the force that opposes you, you prepare for the force that COULD oppose you....and at least in mid ranks, that could be out of range healers, shielders, summoned wolves, trepidation and bioemp, which in lower levels can drive you off alone, let alone against pks.

So, the choice is, prepare for facing everything, or just not go.

I think it might be a benefit to the game to make raiding and retrieving less of an all or nothing venture, making it more likely for people to at least attempt a hit and run attrition war....which can drag out and is FUN.

A possible idea is a slight addition to the cabalwars command....

Specifics can be hammered out, but here is the idea. There would be 3-5 tiers of influence for a cabal, based on how many members are online Right Now. Heroes (maybe with high pk counts) would move it more, with maybe 3-4 lvl 35's to move it as much as a hero....and fort and empire less than full members moving it less.....so that each cabal has a number 1-100 of right now presence.....a hero full member with high pk, might be worth 100.....if the cabal is at 0..., it shows as quiescent or whatever; 1-75...cabalwars shows them as barely active....if the cabal is 75-200..cabalwars shows them as active.....etc.

Not enough info to tell who is on, or exact numbers....but enough to be able to tell....hey, maybe I can prep enough to retrieve....instead of thinking, "they might have a voler, healer, muter, druid, trep, bioemp, and 3 in my pk who might be on....so I'm just not going to try."

Or make it so that it has a chance to stop word/teleport and not a 100% success rate. I also don't understand why it works on undead. I can imagine that badass mummy really scares about a bunch of insects flying around.

Either change solves all the issues for me.

I wasn't saying insects should necessarily have a save. I'm just noting that the lack of a save is one of the things that makes it so dangerous.

Personally I'd leave it without a save and have another proper exit from prosimy, rather than ones that lead to areas that are themselves dead ends.

As they're also killer skills. It's leader powers, they SHOULD be deathly.

I feel that all three are issues that stack together. The cabal entrance is in a mini-maze. Is it a very difficult maze? No. But it is when you need to run away or flee from opponents. Also, there is pretty much only one way towards the tree. Ideally there should be two or three different paths from the west into that maze area and the area around the tree should not be a maze. That is a pretty big terrain advantage especially against newer players who get lost.


The biggest one for me it is that you do not know who is lying in wait for you. Classes like assassins, rangers, transmuters, and thieves all have ways to hide in addition to Chameleon. If you could at least see them on where (if they are using Chameleon) at the very least you would know roughly how many there are against you. Chances are with any other cabal you might have a few opponents you cannot see but not all of them.



The issue with insects is that it is a really good kill-sealing power that helps their home field advantage as well as gives classes that do not have the ability to curse a way to seal a kill pretty much anywhere unless you can out run them or out damage them.

It gives you: 1) Curse and no teleport. That in of itself is an amazing power. 2) Cannot rest/sleep (hard to heal up naturally) so even if you get away you are not healing like you should be. 3) Does damage to them (slight continuous damage is still damage) plus not regenerating hp.

So, it is a REALLY good power but to be fair so is healing curse and sigil of pain that imperials can get. This power combined with that maze around the tree is what makes it really suck for the guy retrieving. Because lets face it, if you are fighting the nightreaver and don't have your own cabal powers it is probably not going to end well for you unless you are prepped to the gills. That being said the Vindicator power bloody shackles should probably get toned down a bit if insects is changed. The difference is that a Vindicator can only do it to someone who is wanted at that time so there are situations whey he/she could not use it. Not that we see too many Vindicators.

Luckily only a few players can possibly have the ability at once.

I'll start by saying I've had 3 imperials and 2 outlanders plus 1 long lived char that never got inducted to outtie.

Healing curse is savable. If insects was it would be way way less dangerous.

The fact it isn't savable is one of the most dangerous things about it. Unlike manacles though (also non savable) you are in terrain that they are just faster in.

Insects isn't a guaranteed to land ability, but yes I agree it could go for *something* that would be player controlled to help prevent it landing (whether its saves or con or dex or something)

An item that isn't 100% but helps prevent insects from landing?

Then again, without access to the code, no idea what that power does. I always used it when I'd remember when raiding/retrieving from the Tree.

The item does indeed do something, but not something related to insects.

Incidentally I have the item he's talking about, most likely. But that doesn't change the situation for the rest of the mud.

nt

nt

If you are taking regular fire or electrical damage on the pulse, it kills off all the bugs like a magical CF bug zapper.

Seriously, that skill is terrible to try and land.

My biggest concern, is that you dont know who you are up against... I've sometimes been on for ages, and Outlanders can sit camoed for like an hour sometimes.

Raiding is all about risk calculation.

Perhaps make camo so it is 10 hours, with a 11 hours timer... So they have to step out at one point. That would be one solution.

But yes, insects are deadly, considered that the area is a forest, and often there are rangers there, so you have traps, hamperede movements and entangle spam... Even as a healer I often found my self with no movements after fighting a ranger near the tree.... So, with quite movement, a ranger/druid can easily move up on you.

Don't change camo, camo is a class skill and should be able to do such things.

Change chameleon so that if you eat or drink you step out and have to rre-chameleon.

When it is out of hand and there are many heroes sitting camo waiting for the one person in their range to come try to retrieve, and they're just sitting there talking smack about how "cowardly" their opponents, showing no decent RP, an imm should just strait up slay them and make an example of them for being lazy. At least have some ancient call them out for their ####ty sportsmanship. Something, anything.

Being applied to all cabals.

But in practice it could be tricky to judge what is appropriate strength to have in reach of defence.

Something alot of people will say is to get rid of chameleon. I disagree with this very strongly. If you do that, you may as well get rid of the cabal. If you really want to get a good idea of how many outlanders are sitting waiting for someone to step into a trap, familiarize yourself with two useful commands. Who, and count. I've never been surprised at how many outlanders pop out when I hit the tree, because of those two commands. Leave those mechanics as is.

It's not that there is one exit leading out of prosimy that is the problem, and don't tell me there's multiple exits because the mansion is not a way out of prosimy when it's only exit is the entrance. It's because that one exit a lot of wilderness before you get to the civilized part of the trail. If you extended the non-wilderness areas by even a few rooms, I bet it would make a huge difference.

Another thing to do is dangle edgepoints for rewards, because it seems people really want edges badly. So give a little bit of edge points for say every 5000 cabal exp you get from retrieving, maxing it at 25-30k. And don't take the edgepoints from somewhere else, just make them a small amount.

I had more, but it's lunch time. If I remember I'll try to come back with some other thoughts.

Are of limited use when there are a significant number of lowbies you can't see.

Also, many many retrievals involve no risk at all, so don't deserve edge points.

Use the commands more than once, over time. Pay attention to who is and isn't stepping out. This is CF. Not everything should be brought to you on a silver patter.

They recently made it so tougher retrievals give more experience. I assumed they could make it so easy retrievals gave no exp towards edge points.

Instead of looking at the negative aspect of everything you could maybe try to see the positive.

I do consider the positive. I use the commands myself. A lot.

They are useful when there aren't a number of hidden lowbies around. Not so much when there are.

If I thought this was a solution then I wouldn't think there's a problem in the first place.

Most people I talk to in game seem to have a fairly good understanding about who is on and hiding. I really don't see what the big deal is.

If you see there are a lot of players on that you cannot see, and you don't take some time to wait and check who, then you die to some hidden class/cabal getting the jump on you, you just learned a harsh lesson in looking before you leap.

The issue I see isn't just about ganks, it is about people not fighting because of perceived ganks that may not be there.

What you describe is precisely one of the symptoms that I have a problem with - people choosing not to fight when actually they could and would if they could tell who was defending.

The exact same thing happens when any cabal has a deadly transmuter in their ranks. People won't raid in fear of being neuro'd. So does that mean duo dimension needs to be changed so that you see any transmuter if they are in a cabal who has your item? That is the road you are walking down. Take some time to check the who and count periodically and you will have a fairly decent idea of who is hiding. And if you still can't figure it out after spamming who count, tough titty. This is CF.

Changing it so you can see all the outlanders if they have your item is taking it too far. I could actually see that cause more people to not raid because they would rather wait for them to log out instead of actually make an attempt to retrieve against them. Besides if you do that it will make ranger camo extremely more favorable and you'll just see an army of rangers in the cabal. Then nobody will ever step foot in any wilderness, let alone prosimy.

Staying chameleon so your opponent doesn't know how many of you will jump out is one of the strengths that outlanders and sylvans always have had, and if you get rid of it you may as well get rid of the cabal. I liked the idea someone suggested about making chameleon more like hide where you'll step out for things like eating and drinking. I think that's the best idea so far and am actually quite surprised the imms haven't thought of that one yet.

Yes, this would apply to all

That's even worse.

Otherwise, not so much.

nt

One of the solutions I suggested was just a second route out of the prosimy!

The other would affect all stealth classes and I've played outlanders, assassins, muters and rangers in numbers, as well as a thief. But it would only reveal that they are logged on, to those whose items they held, when said item less people were in their cabal.

What's wrong with the 2nd path out of the prosimy, pray tell, if everyone can just get out anyway, which you seem to be arguing?

And aren't you also arguing that you can just use who and count anyway? If you believe that then how can u argue this change would make a difference?

I don't remember saying a 2nd path out of prosimy would be a bad thing. I thought I said the opposite.

I think you're idea of revealing who is on is far beyond a bad idea.

We can agree to disagree on that although I'm sure people are arguing that who and count mean you can already tell.

But my seeing suggestion wasn't anti outlander. It was anti gank of retrievers from any cabal.

That's even worse. One of the main points to playing a class that can hide, is the fact they can hide. People already have a good idea of what to expect if they simply play with a little caution and check to see who is playing and how many of them you can see. Again, you're making a far bigger issue out of something that isn't a problem.

If it was Prosimy village -> Village of Barovia along with perhaps somewhat enhancing the Tree to eastern path maze.

It would make things much more tactically diverse, still leaving outlanders with an easy way to village through AI.

This would also give outlanders a second way out, as it is not that uncommon for outlanders to be cursed and revealed in defense situations.

Although outlanders already do have the alternative way out that you mention. Not precisely what you mention iirc but something so similar it accomplishes the same.

One is the fact you can't tell who is on. As a solution I would suggest that if any cabal doesn't have their item they can see everyone in the cabal that has it on their who list, but only from within their own cabal. So they have an idea of who is around to prevent retrieval but can't actually locate them. Note that I would extend this to all cabals.

Insects is a problem mainly because your movement is often hampered when you fight outlanders. And because there's only one way out. If you made an exit in northwest prosimy to the north of the fields near empire that would balance things.

1) this seems like a HUGE increase in relative power for Empire and Tribunal while being essentially useless to everyone else, so it seems unlikely to me that this would happen.

2) Assuming I understand you correctly, this makes no sense. Based purely on the geography of it all I don't understand how you came to this being a realistic option.

Well, it would only be of use to trib and empire when they don't have their item and outlanders are hiding.

It would be of use to all others when they don't have their item and imperial, scarab, rager, fort, trib thieves or assassins are hiding.

I'm not 100 percent convinced it wouldn't be better for all because as it is the surprise chars often lead to ganks, not just by those blocking a retrieval but often of the one guy trying to prevent a retrieval or raid. That's because without being able to tell who is ther, some people don't come until they have so much force that it doesn't matter who is hiding. And then the loner gets ganked.

More knowledge would probably mean more even fights.

And as I mentioned, it is only when you don't have the item that you get the perk, and only against those that hold it, and only when within your own cabal.

Re the geography point.... How do we know there's no land north of the seas? If there was, then why can't the prosimy be connected to the fields, skirting north around the seas and the wild forest?

Prosimy to olive grove shortcut would be too great a boon for outlanders, specially considering new empire tunnel. That would create almost all wilds route down to ashes of nowhere - too good to have imo.

Making an alternative route where you can hide actually decreases the opportunities for fights.