Okay... now I feel kinda stupid. I remember pushing for hand specs to become better because I used to love playing felar warriors. Now they're revised, and all I can say is BLEH. Got a couple of problems with the way they are...

First of all, their weaknesses. No dual wield, no vuln exploitation, no shield block.

This has been counterbalanced (BAD word to use) by making hands hard as all hard to parry, giving them pummel, which lags AND gives the chance to make someone vuln to blunt (maybe bad information, but it seems to), crushing blow, which does like, DEVAS, stun, which hands specs swear only works 40% of the time, but damned in the fights I've seen and been in if it misses that often, and then on top of that, they obviously can't be disarmed, but str/dex loss doesn't seem to do jack #### in the way of slowing them down. Maybe it's just me, maybe it's not. I've seen plenty people get mowed down by a maledicted hand spec like it never happened, and that's without 30+ str/dex gear. What's the deal with that? Is the hand spec really supposed to be the "weapons not working so I'll use my fail safe" spec of CF?

I don't think the hth spec is overpowered or crazy. Just two things I think need tweaking:

1 - Stun should have a timer like blackjack. Having someone be able to stun you immediately, you get up, attack, and get stunned again before entering in a new command, as many times as the hth wants, it just silly, imho. Stun and blackjack are identical (or nearly so) in what they are, physically. Blows to the head. And please, don't try and contrive some weird anatomical way to stun someone to sleep. We all know otherwise.

2 - Hth specs seem to be harder to parry/dodge/shieldblock than any weapon, including weapons you don't even know. That just shouldn't be the case. I don't care how good at hand to hand you are, if your opponent is using a weapon, you are at some disadvantage. And if, as the helpfiles and common knowledge agrees, parrying a weapon you don't know (i.e. an assassin parrying an axe) is supposed to be just about the hardest thing, then someone with a weapon parrying someone's punches (someone who also knows something about hand to hand combat, which every class does) should do better than they would against a weapon they don't know.

I think pummel and crushingblow and all that are fine. I think stun is fine, if it were not eternally renewable as it currently is.

*****2 - Hth specs seem to be harder to parry/dodge/shieldblock than any weapon, including weapons you don't even know. That just shouldn't be the case


I don't care if you are in the top tier of boxers(100% hand to hand skill)......If Bruce Lee (Hand to hand SPECIALIST) wants to hit you, there is going to be very little you can do about it.



"Death awaits ya all, wit nasteh big pointeh teeth!"

If you wanted to kill an assassin, just roll an duergar axe specialist. Even then, the assassin could get lucky and disamr/kote/kans your axes.

Now roll a Duergar hand to hand, laugh at the assassin.

I encountered this same problem with my last assassin (Murbella) against a felar hand/whip spec imperial (Dryzel?). Other than kan's slowing effect, none of my malediction seemed to have any noticable effect on the hand specs damage, or they're ability to hit me (lack of parryability). Perhaps somewhere in the enhanced unparryable code for those using ironhands, some checks should be added that keep the current level of unparryableness for hand specs, but make it based on str and dex. Thinking as follows: A giant hand spec may not be able to land precise blows (low dex) but those fists got a lot of power behind them (high str) so they're hard to parry, whereas a felar hand spec doesn't have the same kind of power, but they're blows are much better aimed. Now if the giant is reduced to having 3 str, they're blows would be much much easier to parry, as with the felar and 3 dex. This (I think) would alleviate some of the issues regarding hand specs hitting a ton, without removing the utility and deathfulness factors of the spec. You may not be able to lose your weapon as a hand spec, so you can always parry, but you won't be hitting like a quicked axe spec either if you've been reduced to a infantile clutz by a series of maledictions. Just my 2 cents. Take it or leave it.

nt

f

In my experience, even including combos such as an arial assassin with 100% in all defenses and hand to hand, even while hasted I still will get hit with around 40-50% of incoming blows from a hand spec, whereas this same setup gets me hit around 25-30% of the time from an axe spec (I can do some log parsing to back this up, or to further test it if you guys think it might help) . Seems a bit out of balance to me, though not worryingly so.

Perhaps that's a bit off topic, but I'll still say that the above post is accurate in that regardless of the condition of the pugilist, his offensive prowess is never noticeably effected, even at the extremes of malediction. Their defenses are negated, of course, but they're still damned tough to block :) .

>In my experience, even including combos such as an arial
>assassin with 100% in all defenses and hand to hand, even
>while hasted I still will get hit with around 40-50% of
>incoming blows from a hand spec, whereas this same setup gets
>me hit around 25-30% of the time from an axe spec

This is from the "Ironhands" help file:

"In addition, this skill allows a significant advantage in landing punches against foes who are less skilled at unarmed combat. Even assassins cannot match a warrior who is dedicated to hand-to-hand combat. "

So yes, you will get hit more, even if your skilled.

Sure, face up, the hand spec is going to hit more. We've all read the point. But if you've got a broken wrist and shoulder, I really don't think you should still be hitting me with the same frequency, and dishing out destructive pummels. What I'm seeing is that hand specs get signifigantly maledicted and it has no bearing on their performance.

I'd be willing to consider the possibility that loss of str and/or dex might have a slightly greater effect on their difficulty of being parried.

Hmm... Gonna have to consider this whole "calm post gets better results" thing. Can't help it though. I got beef.

H2H has enough draw backs, you cannot alter your damage type, you cannot preform many skills on many monsters due to immunity to that damage type.

Perhaps allow selection of attacking type, punch(blunt), chop(slash), poke(pierce).

Perhaps give hands weapon weight based on (PC_total_carry - 100)/10. So a giants fists might weight 40 pounds, but a felar or a arials might only weigh 10-20 pounds.


I would also like to see the major vulns of only using hands to be greatly increased if their primary strength is to be reduced. Ability to parry axes, weapon ave for fists to be put inline with decent ave 31's at hero. Able to start a fight with crushing blow and pummel. Vital to deal neg dex along with neg str.



How hand to hand is now is balanced in comparison to other specs, People just refused to use other tactics to fight against them. Assassins have no leg to stand on in reguards to the insane ammount of stat reduction they can apply to any given foe.

poison, kot, kans, hyper, axe kick. All of these skills are long duration high ammounts of strength and dex reduction ontop of which they also get added bonuses such as slow and the inability to use your secondary hand. I dont think there is any warrior spec that can drop 30 str and 20 or so dex in short duration, as well as slowing and droping the secondary weapon.

"I would also like to see the major vulns of only using hands to be greatly increased if their primary strength is to be reduced. Ability to parry axes, weapon ave for fists to be put inline with decent ave 31's at hero. Able to start a fight with crushing blow and pummel. Vital to deal neg dex along with neg str."

Um yeah... I'd also like to see monkey's fly out of Valg's butt.

Don't know if it's already coded, but even with like -10+ dex/str I still catch them dishing five hit pummels and big damage crushing blows. Just doesn't make sense

nt

It's just a lame attempt at a flame. Who cares about assassinate and sanc. Are you mad because you're playing a hand spec and now you can't get maledicted and still kick people's asses? Save the #### for someone who likes it. My point is valid. If you're taking heavy maledictions you shouldn't be able to hit high end pummels and crushing blows, and that can be argued between game balance AND realism. So take your #### flame, shove it up your ass, fart, make a fire, and burn in hell. Thanks

>It's just a lame attempt at a flame. Who cares about
>assassinate and sanc. Are you mad because you're playing a
>hand spec and now you can't get maledicted and still kick
>people's asses? Save the #### for someone who likes it. My
>point is valid. If you're taking heavy maledictions you
>shouldn't be able to hit high end pummels and crushing blows,
>and that can be argued between game balance AND realism. So
>take your #### flame, shove it up your ass, fart, make a fire,
>and burn in hell. Thanks


That hth specs aren't tearing #### up. The people who are claiming that they're the ####, from what I've seen, are: (1) those who played an hth spec and barely managed to eak out like 20 PKs, or (2) those who got beat up by an hth spec and had to recall. Pardon me if I think that raises credibility issues. The only people I'd give any credence to are Jinroh, Abernyte, and Haslett - people who actually played hth specs and kicked ass -- but these people aren't claiming hth should be powered down.

Now, having established that hth is balanced as it stands, you should face a rebuttable presumption that hth should not be weakened - despite your legitimate issues of "realism." You should have to demonstrate a way for hth specs to not suffer serious weakening while at the same time implementing your plan.

In my view, where we have a fantasy game setting like CF, game balance should always trump realism. Changes can be made to make the game more "realistic," but these changes should not be made until they can be implemented without hurting game balance and playability. If you weaken hth specs to the degree you've suggested, you are hurting game balance and hth spec's playability.

Okay... pros and cons. I could be dead wrong. Correct me if so

Cons:
You can't shield block
You can't dual wield
You can't choose weapon type

Okay...
Most specs don't use shield block in the first place. Polearm/spears/staffs are automatic. Swords dual wield for flourintine. Usually two axes for pincer, and usually people dual wield maces. Usually people dual wield daggers for concealed and twist. The only spec I really see not dual wielding the majority of the time is whip/flail, so I wouldn't consider that an overly unbalanced Con.
This, I'm guessing, is why hand specs hit so much. There has to be some way to put them on par with the people that dual wield. And probably also why pummel has so many hits, and crushing blow does so much damage. But here's where my argument comes in. If I maledict ANY OTHER spec, they lose their ability to dual wield and do those big damage spec skills. Hands specs don't lose that ability, ever, and you're telling me that their on par with the other specs? Come on...
As for choosing weapon type, we can look to pummel again, unless I'm incorrect about what the bruising does. I just don't see how it's "balanced" with the other specs when you consider the factors. It's more of a failsafe than a last resort.

That being the hands-down most malediction-resistant spec is one of the intentional strengths of hand-to-hand, right?

That's not to say, as I've stated before, that I wouldn't be willing to take a look at it and possibly reduce the damage/accuracy it has while maledicted slightly. No matter what happens with that, though, it is ALWAYS going to be by far the most generally effective spec when heavily maledicted.

Hand to hand doesn't match the damage, hit for hit, of a well-equipped warrior of another spec. Additionally, the inability to choose weapons means a lot. Even if you boil it down to a simple matter of resists or vulns as you seem to be trying to, that STILL is a major disadvantage of hand -- and it's much, much more complicated than that. The choice of weapons is a key part of warrior strategy in ways that reach far beyond resist/vuln.

In any case, I'll extend my usual challenge: If hand to hand is so ridiculously out of whack, go ahead and make a hand warrior and tear #### up.

But I hate warriors. Guess it's one of those things I'll have to deal with

Yes it was meant to be a partial flame, to point out that my views on h2h are that it is NOT overpowere, whereas assassinate is, and sanc is and and and.... You get my point.

And I can back up my view because I just finished playing Golron, a h2h axe spec who con died around 500 odd hours. So don't give me the "I gots no ideas foo" type argument.

Alright, do you honestly have any idea how often my h2h specs failed? In fact, I resorted to hardly ever using them for a few reasons. I tanked far better with my axes and ward of blades then I did with h2h, perfect ironhands and ward of blades. I had greater damage output with axes, I could maledict better with axes, I could lag more consistantly with axes, therefore h2h fell to the way side. I only really busted out h2h if I wanted to look good, ie retrieving and getting a Battered and bruised pummel, fighting invokers with shield of ice up and so on. Stun failed so much when perfected too it was really not good to use as a last ditch effort, granted it worked really well on some people, but I also have logs of me fighting people, solo, and missing every single one of my h2h skills after trying about 7 in a row.

So basically I am saying, stop bitching so much about h2h specs. You said yourself you hate warriors, so if your entire argument comes from just being on the other side of h2h then please, dont argue so hard until you have infact played a h2h spec with a good amount of hours on them. As the grass always looks greener on the other side.

Blobqirt/Golron

*snip*

Alright, I will keep this constructive.

I wasn't serious about assassinate and sanctuary, I was using them as a basis to say "While we are at it, changing h2h specs so much, lets also nerf things that don't need it and that"

It is definatly not necessary to perfect all the weapons. If you look at Golron's PBF and look at the weapon %s thats just from pks, and a tiny bit of helping others rank. Thanks to the new code you learn % from other weapons by getting into pks, like a warrior should.

In regards to you saying that h2h specs need tweaking in regards to maledicts. I think that was one of the benefits to the fact that they can't choose hit type, or use different weapons made from different materials, because they are stuck with punching or clawing for felars, they arent affected as much by maledicts.

If my memory serves me, they used to have h2h like blackjack in that you had a timer an hour or so longer then being asleep, but they removed. At least this is what I have noticed as with Akrangol I used to go to talshidar to stun mobs, and was not able to wake them and stun again. Yet with Golron I could. I personally prefer it like that. I am not sure if it was yourself, or someone else who brought up that someone could wake them, and stun them again without them being able to get another command in. To this I disagree, as you cannot start a fight with stun, so you have to open, giving ample time to flee or do whatever it is you want to.

Blobqirt

Bear in mind, this is just my opinion.

Especially fighting tribs who had a lot of NPC help. Using h2h my HP would whittle down too quick. Skills were too unreliable (granted I could have practiced them more). And even with a spear the melee damage was roughly the same, especially since h2h melee damage was so random. Hand to hand had it's uses but certainly wasn't any more effective then any other specialty I've chosen, which is nearly all of them. Basically to me it's a good back up spec/desperation spec because it can get you out of a bind.

From my experience, while they may not match up exactly with other weapon specializations for damage, they seem to land their blows exceptionally well. Much less that the damage difference doesn't seem *massively* difference. Top-end, yes, it's more drastic, but otherwise it seems that given the ease with which they land blows, the overall damage/round seems about similar. But of course, weapon-specs you can maledict to weaken. Even if you don't str-drop the weapons, you can decrease their effectiveness with maledictions so that what they can do, doesn't work as well. H2H *appears* to be unaffected by this. If it's added, they still have the benefit that you *cannot* be disarmed/str-dropped, just then you'd be able to have an impact beyond trying to lag them, while eating up their exceedingly difficult to block in-combat rounds.

gg

Tyke and iborenn have done well with the new hands. Although I think that defensive specs should have a bit easier time defending their punches ect. This is what I have noticed with a near hero staff/spear spec.

So take your #### flame, shove it up your ass, fart, make a fire, and burn in hell. Thanks

Keep posting junk like this, and we will merrily put a stop to your ability to do so. Thank you in advance for your compliance.

The poster's original point was that lots of classes have good abilities which are powerful in the right situations. HTH specs are not an exception to this rule.

Everything else I was going to add was summed up nicely by Balrahd, below.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com