Another long-winded post - to preface this, as I stated elsewhere I've had six neo shamans in a row. All but two of these shamans had two paths and hit the hero range and I've had direct experience either with a path or fighting against it - the only exception was the archon path. I'd also say that I had a pretty decent ride with several of them.

First off, general mana cost.

None of the original shaman spells were reevaluated when the neo paths came out and what was normally considered a semi-balanced cost has gone out of control given new paths.

For example - sanctuary is 75 mana and can range from 3 hours to 8 hours (depending on luck and if you've mastered haven or not). Protective shield is 70 mana and can last 8 hours with Girded Shield (an incredibly expensive edge) but usually lasts 4-5. Assuming that these are the absolute bare minimum communes to engage in a fight, 15-17% of your mana is spent already. Communes during combat range from 10 mana to 200 mana.... and you're going to be using a lot of them. On average, it took Ptolo 200 mana to summon someone *once* (I've got the logs to prove it.... to summon an invoker 6 levels below me took roughly 400 each time). Most fights it wasn't uncommon to go through 400-500+ during the course of the fight.... and that's before the new paths came into play.

Throughout the lives of all my shamans, a considerable amount is spent in downtime - almost all of them went warpriest light and wore gear to compensate. You could say it's part of the balance of the class, like let's say conjurers, but shamans ironically have a fighting style that is in direct opposition to this. Most shaman fights are long, drawn out, and require coaxing a player to stay around because nothing is usually stopping them from leaving. I've worn mana regen items, I've used slow potions and stopwatches, and I've had several that were Imperial or not and I basically come to the conclusion that if you're not playing an Imperial shaman you're severely hampering your ability - being able to last 33% longer is huge and it becomes even more apparent as new paths come into play.

So let's bring up an example of mana costs with the demon path. Each aspect is 100 mana - which starts out around 17-20% of the mana pool of an arial! I believe they last around 8-10 hours. Near level 40, it's still 10-12%. So with an aspect, sanctuary, and protective shield you're down 1/4th of your mana pool and the fight hasn't even started yet. This doesn't include bless, frenzy, fervor, detect invis, protection, or any other buff you want. With an arial, with 15% in mana regen gear, I was unable to keep everything up for long. I'd try and sneak in sleeping on the hour and after about two cycles of everything falling (I think out of everything listed, only two last longer than 10 hours), you'd be sitting at 50-60% of your base... and knowing that you'd be going into a fight with a severe lack of mana. If you want to screw over a Shaman, just run around a zone for a few hours and he'll likely start running out of mana just keeping his communes up or waste them trying to summon you.

If you want to get into this more, I can give more examples but really the costs need to change. There's basically zero reason to play a giant shaman at all considering the lack of regen, harder range, harder costs on your mana pool, etc. Only an Imperial is worth it and really I'd only suggest a fire giant for Zealot of the One Law edge. Black channels is an absolute must for a giant.

Since this is getting long, going to put specific paths in sub posts. I'll maybe add more here later but this is a good start.

While I agree with a lot of what you say (in that certain skills are lackluster), I think the biggest glaring issue with your concerns is that you want two paths that are just domineering. You want the shaman paths to compliment the character to play checkers, when the the intention of the immortals in creating the shaman paths is to play chess. These new paths are to create a new VARIETY in the playstyle of shamans, not to create an overpowering class. This is especially true because each player has a different method of playing. It's unlikely that I could find the same amount of success as some of your characters based on the class/race combo, similar as you might not find as much success as some of my characters. And let's not forget Marcus.

It's the same thing as warrior legacies. There are certain combos that are amazing based on various factors, and there are certain combos that will likely never work. But the option is still there for people to play with. For example, I did landslide/avalanche and found a lot of success in that - I'm the first person who actually used that combo.

While there are certain skills that I think should be upgraded, keep in mind that shaman paths are new and there might not be enough data (unlikely to be enough data) to determine whether a skill is useful. Furthermore, it's not just about a certain SKILL, but rather, the SKILLSET. IE Demon/Venom, etc. People keep saying demon/venom would be amazing, but no one's done it. I think pain/anger would be amazing, or demonspawn/hell's path.

Too much of what you've written in this thread is either factually incorrect or is based in assumptions that we simply don't agree with, to the point where it's almost not worth the effort to attempt to sort through it all and distill any potentially useful feedback.

This pattern you've developed of playing a very PK successful character and lobbying us both during and after the character's life for changes that make that specific build even better isn't a valid argument against any single point you make in and of itself, but I hope you can understand why over time it starts you make you the gamer who cried wolf.

As a reminder to everyone: when it comes to class design or retrospectives of class design projects, we do consider player feedback. We also consider a lot of hard data as well as observation (snooping), which tends to provide in the field feedback that is more objective than what we get from players because we get to see everything, not just the shaman's perspective or the encounters that support the shaman's claims.

You know I heard the same thing when I talked about trappers being pretty terrible pre-effects - "they're fine! learn how to play" is what they said. Same thing after I deleted my archer pre-tweaks, same thing on my hypnotist, my polearm AP, and more.

But whatever, don't read it then. Time for a break.

Did no see release notes.......would have significant impact on next char to play (I've had a trapper role I've wanted to do for a LONG time but this would give me more motivation).

And for what it's worth - I've always liked your balance feedback. It might not result in instant changes but as a player it does give me insight into what I should expect going choosing or fighting against those paths. Regarding the mana thing...yeah. It's supposed to be that way but we can debate whether or not "having to wait a lot" is a really good game mechanic. Much the same reason why conjurers irritate me. Lots of power but way too much sleeping around or waiting out timers.

I'd argue that the mana problem is pretty unique for the class - I don't think a transmuter for example has any problems with mana and is very deadly as well, with a very limited toolset. I would say that the mana costs were balanced, pre paths, but soon as you add those in it became problematic. Costs of 100-250 mana on supplications is quite nutty, considering it can be a quarter of your entire mana pool on a low Int race. The fact that one cabal drops your costs by 33% is insane.

And my whole point about trappers was that I brought up how bad trappers sucked originally - broken skills aside, the balance was crap when it started out and really had no strength. I was told it was fine, I was crying wolf, whatever - same story as I always get. It was then decided months later to actually make trap skills have effects (immolate, boneshatter, instant death hell traps, etc) because they weren't being played enough and were weak. You can rinse/lather/repeat this for a lot of cases.

And actually I didn't cry everything "sucked" - I even said some paths were probably too strong and going to be nerfed. Just because I had or didn't have a good pk ratio doesn't really say much about paths in general - you could argue, as others have, that shamans were ok pre path and quite deathful. The whole point was to get the point of view from someone who has played several iterations across and give feedback.

I would like to see trappers get some love in terms of what the traps do at 75%. It's a really unfriendly user experience to spam those up and they were very underwhelming when they knock you out and go off on you more often than your enemy.

And skill % did not seem to make any impact on how useful they were. I had a VERY low backfire rate (less than 1%) without even sinking the time and energy into mastery. Far as I could figure out, the trap ingredients and level of your PC made the biggest impact, not skill %.

I'll kinda disagree in the sense that - as far as I know you *need* > 90% to get effects like boneshatter and immolate - and those are kinda vital to "being a nasty trapper".

But let's imagine for a second that me, as a new trapper but not a new player, identifies 10 ingredients that I'm going to test out stuff with and those 10 represent significantly worse performance than what you're capable of doing - does that invalidate what I'm saying?

How much should you be required to know regarding trap ingredient locations to not sleep yourself? My ratio was about 50/50 over - granted - about only 20 test samples.

I guess what I mean to say is that :

1) The added effects require the spam (as far as I know) and that's a bad thing because spamming traps is easily one of the worst experiences in the game in terms of grind and time wasting.

2) If the gap in ingredients is really that large it's probably a little too elitist - or alternatively maybe I just had really bad luck and that's poorly flavoring my interpretation of those mechanics.

Edited to add - I know this is totally off-topic but what I'd like to see with traps is that they keep less than 10% "backfire" ratio regardless of skill %/ingredient - that store bought and cheap ingredients are only somewhat less valuable than limited or hidden ones (like on the magnitude of 10-20%) and that all the effects can be applied at any skill % with skill % merely determining your skill success rate.

That's my "blue sky" because it means that I can casually play a trapper - maybe not as effectively as others - but without feeling a necessity to grind either money/gathering or skill points to get all the effects to land.

Most of the ingredients I made use of were the ones bought in either the blackclaw guild or the seaport with an occasional splash of stuff from upper cragstone and the ember from by Udgaard. Other than the ember, and even then its not exactly a super secret item, I don't consider any of that to be "elite" knowledge.

n/t

>1) The added effects require the spam (as far as I know) and
>that's a bad thing because spamming traps is easily one of the
>worst experiences in the game in terms of grind and time
>wasting.

Most of the "special" affects (e.g., boneshatter) are dependent on skill, yes.

>2) If the gap in ingredients is really that large it's
>probably a little too elitist - or alternatively maybe I just
>had really bad luck and that's poorly flavoring my
>interpretation of those mechanics.

This is probably accurate, though I would say that a lot of trap thieves do tend to rely primarily on store bought ingredients and have quite a bit of success with that. Obviously the ones that go down in the history books were supplementing with the Good Sh!tâ„¢, but for better or worse that was part of the design.

>Another long-winded post - to preface this, as I stated
>elsewhere I've had six neo shamans in a row. All but two of
>these shamans had two paths and hit the hero range and I've
>had direct experience either with a path or fighting against
>it - the only exception was the archon path. I'd also say that
>I had a pretty decent ride with several of them.
>
>First off, general mana cost.
>
>None of the original shaman spells were reevaluated when the
>neo paths came out and what was normally considered a
>semi-balanced cost has gone out of control given new paths.
>
>For example - sanctuary is 75 mana and can range from 3 hours
>to 8 hours (depending on luck and if you've mastered haven or
>not). Protective shield is 70 mana and can last 8 hours with
>Girded Shield (an incredibly expensive edge) but usually lasts
>4-5. Assuming that these are the absolute bare minimum
>communes to engage in a fight, 15-17% of your mana is spent
>already. Communes during combat range from 10 mana to 200
>mana.... and you're going to be using a lot of them. On
>average, it took Ptolo 200 mana to summon someone *once* (I've
>got the logs to prove it.... to summon an invoker 6 levels
>below me took roughly 400 each time). Most fights it wasn't
>uncommon to go through 400-500+ during the course of the
>fight.... and that's before the new paths came into play.

I've had success with a...

Duergar Imperial Shaman Pain/Anger
Minotaur Scarab Shaman Desolation/Demonspawn

Both are low INT races. Both dealt with low mana issues. You have to ration your mana. There would be times I was snooping you and asking myself... "He's fighting an invoker. Why did he just put up protective shield?" Sure, if you want to protect yourself from a hidden assassin that will throw you to death, but that's a trade-off you make: caution at the expense of offensive sups. Another time, I thought I saw you try and summon someone that was literally five steps away from you. Summon is supposed to be expensive. You've got feet! Use them! And unless it's absolutely necessary, don't waste mana on mend wounds. Use a healer instead!

>Throughout the lives of all my shamans, a considerable amount
>is spent in downtime - almost all of them went warpriest light
>and wore gear to compensate. You could say it's part of the
>balance of the class, like let's say conjurers, but shamans
>ironically have a fighting style that is in direct opposition
>to this. Most shaman fights are long, drawn out, and require
>coaxing a player to stay around because nothing is usually
>stopping them from leaving. I've worn mana regen items, I've
>used slow potions and stopwatches, and I've had several that
>were Imperial or not and I basically come to the conclusion
>that if you're not playing an Imperial shaman you're severely
>hampering your ability - being able to last 33% longer is huge
>and it becomes even more apparent as new paths come into
>play.

Yes, there is downtime. It is part of the class. Getting things like troll amulet can alleviate that, but those things don't grow on trees. I was fortunate at one time or another to get one. Resting to regain mana is a part of the shaman class.

>So let's bring up an example of mana costs with the demon
>path. Each aspect is 100 mana - which starts out around 17-20%
>of the mana pool of an arial! I believe they last around 8-10
>hours. Near level 40, it's still 10-12%. So with an aspect,
>sanctuary, and protective shield you're down 1/4th of your
>mana pool and the fight hasn't even started yet. This doesn't
>include bless, frenzy, fervor, detect invis, protection, or
>any other buff you want. With an arial, with 15% in mana regen
>gear, I was unable to keep everything up for long. I'd try and
>sneak in sleeping on the hour and after about two cycles of
>everything falling (I think out of everything listed, only two
>last longer than 10 hours), you'd be sitting at 50-60% of your
>base... and knowing that you'd be going into a fight with a
>severe lack of mana. If you want to screw over a Shaman, just
>run around a zone for a few hours and he'll likely start
>running out of mana just keeping his communes up or waste them
>trying to summon you.

Your post insinuates to me that you feel the need to have a path aspect up all the time. You don't. I learned really quickly that fighting characters whose initial move was to dispel me meant there were more productive uses of my limited mana.

As for your last comment in the paragraph, again, you need to make a trade-off. If you insist on going into every fight with every protective commune up, then of course you are not going to have enough mana for offensive supps. You know someone's been ranking awhile and you're waiting to ambush them? Try going in with haven instead of sanc. They can't bash or throw? Don't use protective shield. They're a paladin? Okay, NOW might be a good time to use mors-gravis path (I think that's the one that auto-attacks Paladins)

>If you want to get into this more, I can give more examples
>but really the costs need to change. There's basically zero
>reason to play a giant shaman at all considering the lack of
>regen, harder range, harder costs on your mana pool, etc. Only
>an Imperial is worth it and really I'd only suggest a fire
>giant for Zealot of the One Law edge. Black channels is an
>absolute must for a giant.

If you consider minotaur a giant (I do), then no. Black channel is not a must.

>Since this is getting long, going to put specific paths in sub
>posts. I'll maybe add more here later but this is a good
>start.

...when you had a 90% ratio with Behmurra and you did really well with all your other shamans. How bad are shamans really? You rocked better ratio's with your shamans than your warriors or AP's.

Sounds like you want an "I-win" button so-to-speak.

You realize I had like 18 kills total right? Not exactly a deathful shaman - being unkillable is one thing but that's mostly because any shaman doesn't have to fight at all if they don't want to. You could say the same thing about almost any class but a shaman just gets out better - kind of like a mini-healer.

I never said shamans were bad, ever. I said some paths are bad - and they are. My general complaint was about mana costs.... play a giant non-Imperial and tell me how it goes.

Two of these paths I've had for a small amount of time so I'm not willing to give a full judgement just yet (Breaker and Anarchy). Pain and Devil I've been on the receiving end several times but never had them myself.

Anarchy seems... well like anarchy. I didn't notice too much from disorient beyond that it seemed to sometimes confuse people. Sicken was like a very weak miasma. Chromatic fire can severely backfire but that's just life of an Entropist. Havoc is arguably one of strongest and or weakest final abilities... it can absolutely ruin a character or as it says, it can do nothing. I only used this path for a short amount of time so I'm not 100% on how I feel about the path. I doubt I'd go as far as Sam and say Havoc can be the best ability but it seemed ok. Definitely though this is not a powerhouse path.

Breaker is extremely strong... like extremely strong. For the time I had it I was nothing but impressed by its function and was tempted to retake it with another character but the two Immortals I chose didn't have this as an option.... or I tried another path like Vengeance which I regret doing. Questioning thoughts can be one of the most infuriating things to ever place on someone as it can make 50% of their commands basically fail for 2 hours. This is INCREDIBLY strong as it can stop fleeing, stop you from moving, stop you from doing anything. Good luck walking down eastern road with this on, it's not happening and for shamans that struggle to keep people around this is absolutely huge. I never got to Forbidden Thoughts and haven't had it used on me so no comment there.

Devil path seems like a middle of the pact between damage and utility. Heresy is a nice damage commune but Hellfire is a lot better in most cases - ANNIHILATES aren't uncommon. Gluttony I've never felt huge things from (just was a minor annoyance)... I've never had to steal from one so I'm not sure how good Greed is. Aspect of the Devil seems strong... until you realize it can be dispelled just like every other major path ability like it. You could make a case for this being one of the better paths for a Frost Giant but really, Frost Giants are just bad Fire giants....and you'd have to be an imperial or you'd be shooting yourself in the foot with mana problems. Never saw Betrayal used... I figured Reegun would actually use it, but he's a pretty terrible player anyways so that's not saying much.

Pain is a nice utility path with some very powerful abilities. Spasms is incredibly strong and can help you win the shaman vs shaman fights since they can't reapply sanctuary or even haven. Anguish can be a nice surprise of damage and again, screws shamans as it drains mana. Embrace/Reject Pain are both utility items to help with you staying longer in a fight... mixed with certain paths and combos this can be extremely strong. Wrack seemed fairly disappointing - I've only been affected by it twice but it seemed basically non-existent besides stat modification. Looking back at the logs, I ironically never moved afterwards (I teleported and waited until it was gone) so not sure if it screws with that. I was expecting more though... the path is ok. Spasms was the biggest threat I saw as for certain classes it can seriously mess you up (no reapplying sanctuary or teleporting).

Out of the 4 paths, I'd rate Breaker definitely at the top. Pain probably outshines Devil, with Anarchy being last - mainly because I don't enjoy not having control over what's going on.

Keeps you from sleeping.

I kinda think a combo of Pain/Anger could really be difficult to handle for some characters. Wrack to keep them from healing and Unerring smite to finish them in case they were maledicted.

>Pain is a nice utility path with some very powerful abilities.
>Spasms is incredibly strong and can help you win the shaman vs
>shaman fights since they can't reapply sanctuary or even
>haven. Anguish can be a nice surprise of damage and again,
>screws shamans as it drains mana. Embrace/Reject Pain are both
>utility items to help with you staying longer in a fight...
>mixed with certain paths and combos this can be extremely
>strong. Wrack seemed fairly disappointing - I've only been
>affected by it twice but it seemed basically non-existent
>besides stat modification. Looking back at the logs, I
>ironically never moved afterwards (I teleported and waited
>until it was gone) so not sure if it screws with that. I was
>expecting more though... the path is ok. Spasms was the
>biggest threat I saw as for certain classes it can seriously
>mess you up (no reapplying sanctuary or teleporting).

Again, I wish I had experimented more with this path before deleting. Wrack, when it landed heavy does prevent sleeping (and even resting?) For a class that specializes in long, drawn out fights, that is a huge advantage for a shaman. Anguish is like demonfire in damage but works equally on all aligns (not just the opposite) AND can drain mana. Didn't practice Reject Pain (role), but one of the coolest things about Embrace Pain is that I swear I shrugged off lagging attacks after taking enough damage in a fight. Maybe I'm hallucinating and it was another mechanic, but that saved my life more than once.

You take this for unerring strike - and that's really it. The path itself is fairly limited and doesn't give you much but the finisher will land you a lot of kills.

Shield of retributive rage seemed very lackluster - I'd almost equate it to having the unholy aura edge on an anti-paladin. You're also losing protective shield which can make this extremely limited in use depending on who you fight.

Amplified affliction... I don't think I even learn affliction on most shamans so amplifying a sub-par spell is pretty bad. If you have any other path and are aiming for damage or maledictions, there's almost always something better out there. Would you use this over miasma, earthrend, dire omens, fearful mind, or even chromatic fire or abyssal flame demonfire? No.

Instruments of judgement - anything that makes a weapon for you, usually sucks in this game. For whatever reason the Immortals have it in their mind that if you can make something it has to be worse than a ton of other options. Are you going to replace any amazing weapon you get from an area explore with an exotic? Not really. If this commune actually put the effects onto your current weapon = bueno. As it stands now, meh. Maybe if you have crappy weapons...

All Seeing Eye - this is fairly funny as you'll have hiding classes complaining on why they can't hide. A very useful utility ability that can seriously mess up some classes. No more duo running, no more hiding as a tree, no restealthing, flee/ambush, and much more. The second reason why you take this path.

Unerring Smite is the reason you take the path - everyone has seen the logs and it means that running away has to be done sooner by all your opponents... which isn't intuitive to most people. Most people flee when they get low, but now they have to keep in their mind that they need to leave a lot sooner... and a lot of people don't want to. Classes that have skills that lag for a long time (flurry) can basically die if you do the right combination after it fires (usually high damage spells with low lag). Combine this with earthrend or miasma or hellfire and you're going to have a good day.

Given how strong erring strike is I'd say the path is fine. Instruments should be allowed to affect your current weapon - if you're going to keep amplified affliction, then let's not have two-three bad communes in a path. Retributive rage should probably start at a higher damage mod.

Amplified Affliction is awesome. It definitely adds to the shaman arsenal. Not only can affliction cause bleeding and -15 hit/dam, it also can WEAKEN the other player. This is key - a damage supplicant (I've done ***DEMOLISH*** ***DEVASTATES*** with it) that maledicts? It's like miasma!

Instrument of Judgement - might be something there that I missed, but I agree, it sucks.

Shield of Retributive Rage - This is really PVE. But, at hero range, +5 dam is nice - it's just not that useful for a shaman (maybe it will be with the new changes).

I never saw that kind of damage but I stopped using it fairly early on. Miasma is completely on another level.... weaken or even bleeding does not match neuro poison that also strips immunities/resistances. I guess I should have used it more but I had better options from other paths.

Not sure how the changes are going to improve SoRR.... I almost never used it.

Change in SORR as in shaman damroll might matter more (at least for shamans wielding heavy weapons - slightly better chance of hitting).

I think what you said is key ... certain skills are good at all levels, certain skills are situation, and certain skills are good at low levels.

For instance, with Vhalorn, if I stayed at low level with soldier of light and dispel evil, I could've wiped the floor with everyone. At hero level, I used dispel evil occasionally - mostly it was demonfire and afflict for damage. Afflict was NIIIICCEEE. Based on what you said, you haven't played with amplified affliction at hero.

I compared it to miasma not in killing power, but in afflicts - yes, miasma afflicts are better, but for a one round 20 mana supplication that can do bleeding/hitdam/weaken to any mobs (even undead/golem/etc.), amplified affliction is extremely promising. I would choose anger just for that in fact.

Regardless, demonfire was often my bread and butter. I think anything that helps with demonfire is awesome. Of course, I haven't played demonspawn so I don't know how awful it is. But if I play once, I can probably find some quirks/cool things/uses for it that you didn't do.

It's like outcry of steel. No one uses it, but it was super amazing with Knac.

Besides instrument of judgment. Worthless skill.

> I think
>anything that helps with demonfire is awesome.

That's where we disagree. Play with a path that actually has better damage communes and you'll know that demonfire isn't the end all be all. Earthrend/Typhoon, Miasma, Anguish, Hellfire... there's probably more I'm missing but demonfire isn't that sexy - especially considering you need an edge to use it against a lot of enemies (you know, being evil versus an evil empire) and edges are not exactly easy to get these days.

And even then, it only fired maybe 17% of the time... and 2% of the time it was beneficial. Twice in a hundred casts is pretty abyssmal (hah, bad joke).

You're saying that demonspawn isn't necessarily bad, but it's not as good as other paths because the side affects that the path is supposed to give does not fire as much.

Essentially, you're doing a comparison of demonspawn to other paths.

I'll try demonspawn one day (when I have time) and look into that ... they might have changed it after Gawlar, but from what I saw in Gawlar logs, abyssal flame looked pretty awesome when it programed. It's essentially a RNG factor that can easily contribute to kills. As for the summon part, I've seen some logs where the golem does pretty good damage - it's power peaks probably at low level and spirals downward once you reach high level.

I think that's where your analysis is flawed (don't get me wrong, I appreciate these writeups). A lot of the "new powers" are more useful at low level than at high level. It's possible that demonspawn isn't very useful at high level, but seemed to work really good for Gawlar.

I've had pain, revelation, breaker, anger and seraph's wings. I found that all of the paths were good in niche fields (some better than others).

The log of it getting 3-rounded I think was around level 26-28. It got 2rounded when I hit early 30s.

If Gawlar did well with it, not sure what to say. Maybe it was toned down or maybe his range was easier/different... I know if I had any other path I would have done a lot better. I've had it on two shamans and I regretted it deeply both times... and the current time I didn't get a choice.

I can't really think of a case where I'd want the demon path, for whatever reason, over another. I'm trying to think of a case or class/combo that would merit it but I can't think of one.

Seriously man, you trashed some things without thinking how awesome they could be.

Get a troll amulet and have Demonspawn? Only need to protect from acid when fighting badasses.

Gawlar was a dark-elf if I remember correctly, so he might have had more juice on his supps as opposed to an Arial.

Having that demon show up is still nice. You basically were able to blind that dude without taking a single strike in combat first. That's pretty swank to me, at least.

Earthrend seems too good. I wouldn't be shocked if they either toned it down or upped it's mana cost. I can see why you were disappointed with Demonspawn after having Revelation/Venoms/Desolation. You do realize not all paths play the same, yes?

Gawlar was dark-elf scion shaman.

Hero scion was pretty beefy with Mirozah/Halifan but I didn't rank into hero range, choosing instead to be the mid-range retriever/defender. Which actually hurt Gawlar more than helped since I was dealing with dark-elf range the entire time.

To be good with the demonspawn path you have to be able to kill without the demonspawn path. I truly believe that shamans do not need other communes/skills to get kills on a base level. They have all the tools they need prepackaged in. Paths are just gravy for a shaman. I find that when presented with paths, shamans too often try to incorporate that path's active communes into every fight when that fight might not necessarily call for their path's communes.

This is what precisely makes demonspawn so sexy. You put up the buffs before the fight begins and they enhance your already deadly skillset without you having to use commands to invoke them. Abyssal flame progged a lot for Gawlar, as did demonic summons, but I had them both at 90 or so. I mean, a few times abyssal flames did Augment Toxins which is PIMP because it causes a huge upspike in the damage to plague/poison. what was just a graze and a maul is now upper case and *** damage. Good luck teleporting and surviving that.

I used all demonic aspects heavily with the exception of harmentia which I do agree kind of blows. Being essentially immune to flame is huge, especially if you wait to throw it up until midway through the rope-a-dope when you're gushing blood and that storm giant with 2x vigilance thinks he's dropping a huge flurry on you. Instead you get hit with 8 scratches and demonfire his ass into the ground.

Gawlar did exceptionally well with it (120-30 in 120 hours), as a dark-elf constantly fighting people with ranks on him. That's almost solely as a result of demonspawn and the way it passively buffs the shaman skillset. Granted, I don't think its the path for everyone but just because you can't find success with it doesn't mean it's a ####ty path.

I'm not making light of what Gawlar did - I fought Gawlar, it wasn't fun. I'm glad you got 120 kills in 120 hours - I don't think I even saw 120 people in 120 hours. You also had scion powers so there is that... I've no clue if the path was tweaked since then.

I never had the luck of augment toxins - but it could have been several times of the 15% of the time it procced where it failed some unknown spell effect. I'm dead serious that only about 2% of the time was it anything useful. It's completely random - saying augment toxins was amazing, could be, but it never happened for me once in almost a thousand casts.

Saying a shaman is good without the paths is fine - you can kill people without it, I did for a long time on this guy. Some people are bad enough to die to plague/poison/energy drain/fatigue... it doesn't mean that the path is balanced at all in comparison to the others.

And about fire immunity - not exactly sure what you're talking about here: it's the exact same amount of resistance as a fire giant. Maybe it was tweaked but as you can see where I posted affects that it is +38. You get the same amount from the ice shield or eating a red grass prep for crying out loud, it's nothing. You're saying the "passive benefits to the path" even equate to a single prep you can get at level 5 matched with the downsides? I'm really not seeing how its balanced at all compared to other paths.

If Gawlar was that nasty with demon path, he'd be night and day better with any other path (assuming it wasn't tweaked).

Gawlar had way more fire protection. He was literally taking scratches from guys with 40+ damroll if they were using fire weapons.

I wonder if it was supp % related, or they tweaked it down...who knows?

>Get a troll amulet and have Demonspawn? Only need to protect
>from acid when fighting badasses.

Yeah.... THAT was nice.

>Amplified Affliction is awesome. It definitely adds to the
>shaman arsenal. Not only can affliction cause bleeding and -15
>hit/dam, it also can WEAKEN the other player. This is key - a
>damage supplicant (I've done ***DEMOLISH*** ***DEVASTATES***
>with it) that maledicts? It's like miasma!

Agree. I really wish I had gotten more mileage out of this before deleting my Anger shaman.

>Instrument of Judgement - might be something there that I
>missed, but I agree, it sucks.

I do not use exotics all that much, and so rarely bothered with this spell. But yes, there something it does really well that I only found out after I deleted.

I used amplified affliction to a fault. Absolutely wonderful sup. Anger with pain/venoms would be boss I think

Shield of retributive rage seemed very lackluster - I'd almost equate it to having the unholy aura edge on an anti-paladin. You're also losing protective shield which can make this extremely limited in use depending on who you fight.

**You don't actually "lose" protective shield, you just get a new variance of it (kind of like storm cloak).

Amplified affliction... I don't think I even learn affliction on most shamans so amplifying a sub-par spell is pretty bad. If you have any other path and are aiming for damage or maledictions, there's almost always something better out there. Would you use this over miasma, earthrend, dire omens, fearful mind, or even chromatic fire or abyssal flame demonfire? No.

**There are tons of situations where this is (and regular affliction for that matter) are quite useful. Even more if you are following an imm who does not offer Desolation path.

There are lots of great insights in these posts, but you also are coming off very much as a "I'm right and anyone else who weighs in is wrong." Another player tried to point out his own experiences with a path/sup that he used and you essentially dismissed him, while admitting you didn't really use said sup much anyways. If you could keep it a more open dialogue that included and valued the input of other player experiences, this could turn into one of the more valuable shaman path things on the forum.

This is purely from a balance perspective. If we wanted to talk about what path per Imm, I would probably suggest any Destuvius follower who is an Imperial doesn't take Devil path because they lose black sanctuary :)

In all honesty though, I didn't really dismiss it. I said it wasn't good in comparison to other paths and felt short for me. Your mileage may vary but when I compared it to Miasma I was serious - there's one ability which is kinda meh and Miasma which is amazing. There are really not even on the same playing field.

I'll keep it in mind though and not try to be so harsh. Kind of a bad day if ya haven't noticed.

I thought this path was going to be a lot better but it kind of gets downsized in comparison to other paths. If it was tweaked to be better, I'd love it but as of right now I probably wouldn't return to this path.

Tooth for a tooth is one of the more interesting communes - sadly it doesn't remove the effects from you but shares them with your opponent (and I don't believe it shares all effects, it can only do some). Insect swarms? Now you get to enjoy it also. It's a nice surprise but it doesn't fit a bit how shamans fight... usually doing it would cause someone who was maledicting to gtfo. Returning impale/boneshatter to a warrior and he's running for the hills. It really has to be used near the end of a fight which isn't necessarily bad but makes it harder to use because people can leave at any point.

Bulwark of Faith is meh, I had warpriest heavy on a giant and I never noticed this doing much even with people spamming cranial. It's fairly expensive, it doesn't last long, and it falls away soon as your protective shield does so you better have Girded Shield. I get the idea here but it never seemed to make a difference. Maybe if I was somehow sitting under massive lagging attacks for several rounds but most shamans leave during this anyways.

Rally the fallen I never got to use. You basically need an ally to die to someone, have that someone leave, you commune this, and then they come back. Extremely situational and the case never came up. If I could use it on someone directly that killed a player it'd be a lot lot lot more useful. Let's say a druid blows up your partner and then you commune this on the druid in the middle of a fight for some big effect, sure. Generally though I fought alone so this never came up. If you see big gang fights, sure, but how often do you see that nowadays with our playerbase? Exactly.

Ethos protection is nice free damage resistance. Obviously it's situational and doesn't always help you out but when it does its nice. You can find this in prep form in the world though so it's not a huge deal.

Eye for an eye was disappointing. I tried using this to finish people off or as payback for getting my ass kicked and it never seemed to do much. Unerring strike seems better in almost every case... I could be wrong, but it feels like the commune only works on the damage you take after damage resistance. Maybe it's amazing after a long fight where you've been fighting for hours and someone teleports... but unerring would get the same effect. Even as a giant, with sanctuary and ethos protection, the damage I returned was never amazing. Just like seal fate, it doesn't work on shapeshifters.

Remembering your recent suffering at Liantae's hand, you concentrate on seeking revenge.
Daevryn answers your call for vengeance on Liantae and delivers retribution.
Your bolt of retribution MASSACRES Liantae!
Liantae has some small but disgusting cuts.

Remembering your recent suffering at Von's hand, you concentrate on seeking revenge.
Daevryn answers your call for vengeance on Von and delivers retribution.
Von yells 'Help! Behmurra is exacting vengeance upon me!'
Your bolt of retribution *** DEMOLISHES *** Von!
Von is covered with bleeding wounds.


The path wasn't that great - the free damage resistance from ethos protection can be found in other paths like Pain. Tooth for tooth seems situational and usually caused people to run immediately.... so I was scary as Behmurra but never got many kills. Rally the fallen should be changed so it can be directed at a person in a fight to check if they killed someone recently or something else but I never had a use for it. The rest was lackluster or disappointing.

Don't recommend this.

One of the bees' knees, this path is arguably one of the stronger ones - it helps a shaman fight the way a shaman needs to fight and does it all with no downside.

Cataplexy is pretty useless - you get a dexterity poison that apparently "momentarily paralyzes them" as they shrug the poison off. I never saw this in action and I my guess it's a sub-tick effect because even when people cured it I never noticed. Not even really worth practicing - this needs fixing.

Miasma is where all the power is. Take a very high damage skill, and add in a random poison - neuro, fear, emetic, etc. This will be your go to replacement of demonfire and you'll use this almost all the time. Oh and get this, it removes any resistances/immunities your opponent has. Harmentia aspect? Bu-bye. Avatar of venoms from another venom path shaman? Bu-bye. This is why you picked this path. Neuro wins you fights, fear can save your ass, and emetic is just amazing to screw with your opponent.

Noxious Cloud seemed fairly thematic but practically useless. You can't conjure it where you want to (not inside cabals), it travels slowly, and does lower-case damage. I think I sat it in for 5 hours and it did maybe 50hps of damage and failed to poison me. The whole point of this would be to cast it at a cabal entrance and let it travel inside so people can't sleep during a raid.... but you can't. There's a reason that this has been on invokers since the beginning and you've never seen it - it's pretty terrible.

Avatar of Venom is pretty useless - the poison resistance is apparently helpful against poisoner thieves but I think there's been one poisoner thief in the last year... and it's not immunity. The other thing is that people who get close can get a random poison - this can be useful but didn't seem to fire a whole lot. It's also an expensive commune that doesn't last long so dispellers make it nonusable. You'd think it'd be useful against a venom path shaman but they remove it with miasma so its useless there. In general, it's meh at best.... and I'd put it up there with some of the more useless buffs.

Malice is basically the old rot - with the only bonus being that they don't see it fire until it starts which is delayed. To them it looks like a failed commune as you narrow your eyes at them, but soon it'll start ticking and they'll know what's happening. It landed kills obviously and does a good job of screwing over players with very low con.... but most pros can survive through it. Soon as they see a venom path shaman, they just have to collect a +constitution suit just like before so it's not new to most people. Gets rid of the newer players or the very old/near con-death chars who are too lazy to gather easy prep gear. No real complaints here but this isn't why you picked this path.

All in all, a solid path. Cataplexity and noxious cloud are fairly useless, I doubt I'd even train them. Avatar of Venom has some serious downsides that should be improved for it to be worth the hassle. Miasma is the whole reason you take the path though.... with malice being a distant second.

I've got mixed feelings on this path - as a secondary path it definitely has its uses but it feels more utility than anything else. A nice way to round out a character and would be a great addition to a solid path like venom or desolation.

First off, your locate object is actually at your level - which is great for not only locating gear but allows you to find groups by locating body parts and corpses they left behind. Invaluable change and after playing Soviatos, this is a bit hard to live without.

Sanctimonious Sight is a nice addition - and it's a very nasty surprise at the level you get it. The damage on illumination now is pretty high and can do OBLITs on duergars. Beyond that you can cure blindness, land blows easier, and are harder to distort/miss via things like STSF/Flows/etc. All for a nice level 21 skill.

Dire Omens seemed pretty worthless - it's a damage commune that gets worse with every use... it generally took only two times before it was non-caps damage. Really only worth using once on giants and even then it seemed pretty useless. You'll almost never use this.

Oracle is dangersense with the added bonus of randomnly showing you where people are after you fight. That pesky wabbit get away and teleport? Very rarely you'll suddenly see what room they're in.... which lets you chase them down. The utility on this path is probably the best of any other path for this alone.

Miraculous Foresight is purely for PvE walking into assassinate rooms, PWK mobs, etc. Same as a healer but means you can jump into a room safely. Incredibly incredibly high cost so useless in fighting people.

Seal Fate sounds amazing but in practice it's a pain in the ass. It doesn't work on anyone you can't talk to by name (any shifters, people in muted zones, etc), and it basically means they can't cure anything.... unless they're from the Fortress where any acolyte can remove the ability. I used this countless times on people about to die and an acolyte would pull it off of them in a heartbeat. Coupled with the venom path, this can help you finish someone with nasty poisons... but it is a very very high mana cost (250 or 25% of your pool usually) so if they got away and you're low on mana, it aien't happening.

A great utility path - only thing I'd fix would maybe be seal fate working on shifters, probably lowering the cost considering it doesn't do any damage itself (unlike unerring strike or other 'finishers'), and fix dire omens. It really is terrible and not worth even practicing.

But revelation sounds like the bomb to me.

Some of the skills you describe as useless sound great. An expensive supp that protects you from assassinate? Great. Use it and illuminate that guy.

Seeing people that teleported is amazing.'

But also, you complain about mana cost.

Did you try to gear for mana? Play a high int race? Level to hero? Improve the skills like haven that extend sanctuary duration?

I was Soviatos, a hero imperial dark-elf high priest, so I had plenty of mana and regen... still expensive to put down a 250 mana cost spell that lasts for 2-3 hours. Seal Fate is also 250 mana... I had roughly 1250 mana I think or maybe it was higher but having 250 mana at the end of a fight is incredibly hard to swallow. If you don't have black channels or a high int race with regen/slow, forget about it.

Would it be useful for walking out to some assassin? Sure, but I didn't have assassins during then so I was fine. PWK was never an issue either as I was an Imperial - non-Imperial necros basically are non-existent.

The seeing where people teleport is amazing but it's extremely rare. I think it fired maybe a handful of times the entire life of the character. You would sometimes get very vague room names or I'd find them in a city, which I could do nothing about. It's more about the dangersense.

As I said, the path is probably the best for utility... and if your first path is solid enough, it's a great second choice.

I almost hesitate to say this but this is by far one of the best paths - it does the job of having one of the highest damage communes, it can actually lag people which the shaman class suffers from not being able to do, has great utility, and is very flashy and awesome. Ironically the design pattern of CF of "start sucky" missed the boat with this one.

Lava fountain is incredibly high damage that's basically free. Using this with Behmurra, who had a fire vulnerability, it was basically a free mangle/demolish on everything in the room every round and I took lowercase damage through sanctuary. It also stops you from being knocked out. If this was used by a fire giant, the damage for you would be absolutely negligible, but you'd be increasing your damage by a ton.

Earthrend is by far the best damage commune of all the paths. Even if someone is flying, it's still a free *DEMO/DEVAS* with one round lag and only costs 15 mana. Comparably to demonfire, it's consistent. If they aren't flying, which you can usually dispel, you can do some pretty nasty effects - you can lag, you can feint, and you can break ankles (think it cuts their mv in half with -dexterity). Seriously, it's amazing. Just to give an idea....

<704hp 602m 570mv 9592tnl <7 PM>> com earthrend
Your prayer tears the ground asunder, opening fissures and showering the area with rocks and soil!
Your earth-rending tremors === OBLITERATES === Garvurg!
Unable to maintain his awareness, Garvurg stumbles into a small fissure and struggles to recover!
Garvurg is gushing blood.

<742hp 617m 615mv 9592tnl <8 PM>>
Garvurg's corrosive slice misses you.
You parry Garvurg's slice.
Garvurg's corrosive slice decimates you!
You parry Garvurg's slice.
Your freezing cut MASSACRES Garvurg!
Garvurg is gushing blood.

<715hp 617m 615mv 9592tnl <8 PM>> com earthrend
Your prayer tears the ground asunder, opening fissures and showering the area with rocks and soil!
Your earth-rending tremors >>> ANNIHILATES <<< Garvurg!
Garvurg has fled!
Garvurg leaves south.

and...

Your prayer tears the ground asunder, opening fissures and showering the area with rocks and soil!
Your earth-rending tremors === OBLITERATES === an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors >>> ANNIHILATES <<< an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors *** DEMOLISHES *** an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors *** DEMOLISHES *** an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors *** DEMOLISHES *** an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors === OBLITERATES === an elite storm giant soldier!
Your earth-rending tremors *** DEMOLISHES *** an elite storm giant soldier!
An elite storm giant soldier staggers briefly as the sundering earth throws off his balance!
Your earth-rending tremors *** DEMOLISHES *** a storm giant lieutenant!
An elite storm giant soldier is gushing blood.

I can't remember ranking faster on a character.

Locust plague changes any forest tile into a desert, it spreads, and does very nice damage when it is commune to anyone in the room that's hostile. Basically your anti-Outlander commune as it can destroy all those piles of leaves druids make, help you turn Prosimy wood into desert, and generally make life hell for a ranger.

Storm cloak randomnly casts call lightning on people in your area, as well as fire shield of electricity damage on metal weapons or people who attempt to get close. It also makes the weather worse in an area every time you call it. A nice free little buff that can fire on unsuspecting people who walk into your area - so kind of like a mini dangersense. Nothing like walking Eastern and randomly hitting an assassin who walked into the area. Out of all things that can be dispelled for a shaman, this is the easiest one to live without - once the call lightning affect fires you have several hours (5-6) until it will fire again so fighting shamans or paladins is of little consequence.

Typhoon allows you to hit everyone in a room and push them out of the room. The damage on it is sizable (OBLITs were not uncommon), the lag on it is low, and it allowed you to push people out of the room. Only works outdoors and apparently works better on the water but didn't notice anything than a slight damage increase. The #1 use on water would be pushing people into the whirlpool but you can't because unless they're waterbreathing, you're unable to push them into that room - lame.;

All in all, this is one of the best paths... you get nice utility that's usable in countless situations, you get the best damage spell in the game, and it looks great. Win win - and probably will get nerfed at some point.

I know they reduced how often it hit you after I reported it with a log where I was hit more times than anyone else. I wonder if it was changed further... I had it with Helfinu, and it hit me as high as a dismember through Sanc/Prot. It also can lag you which made it quite unreliable.

*Edited for simple readability.

I never got lagged from it I think ever. Seriously, I thought it would happen but it never did. The damage was awesome...

In this, I'm a frost giant with the same vulnerability of the felar chief.

Spurts of lava spray forth from a crack in the ground!
Your lava spray *** DEVASTATES *** the felar chief!
Your lava spray maims you!
You parry the felar chief's claw.
You parry the felar chief's claw.
The felar chief's claw mauls you.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Your blow swings wildly and misses.
The felar chief is writhing in agony.


Spurts of lava spray forth from a crack in the ground!
Your lava spray *** DEVASTATES *** the felar chief!
You narrowly avoid the spraying lava.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Your piercing cold EVISCERATES the felar chief!
The felar chief is convulsing on the ground.

Spurts of lava spray forth from a crack in the ground!
Your lava spray *** DEVASTATES *** the felar chief!
Your lava spray maims you!
You parry the felar chief's claw.
The felar chief's claw mauls you.
Your shield blocks the felar chief's claw.
Sparks fly as the felar chief tries to bash you but is defeated by your electrical field.
Your shield of electricity EVISCERATES the felar chief!
Your piercing cold EVISCERATES the felar chief!
The felar chief is convulsing on the ground.

>Lava fountain is incredibly high damage that's basically free.
>Using this with Behmurra, who had a fire vulnerability, it was
>basically a free mangle/demolish on everything in the room
>every round and I took lowercase damage through sanctuary. It
>also stops you from being knocked out. If this was used by a
>fire giant, the damage for you would be absolutely negligible,
>but you'd be increasing your damage by a ton.

Also good for whittling down outer guardians while trying to raid/retrieve AND making sure no one is camoed/hidden/duo'ed at said outer. I don't think it stops you from being knocked out. The lava will stop when you lose consciousness.

>Earthrend is by far the best damage commune of all the paths.
>Even if someone is flying, it's still a free *DEMO/DEVAS* with
>one round lag and only costs 15 mana. Comparably to demonfire,
>it's consistent. If they aren't flying, which you can usually
>dispel, you can do some pretty nasty effects - you can lag,
>you can feint, and you can break ankles (think it cuts their
>mv in half with -dexterity). Seriously, it's amazing. Just to
>give an idea....

Yeah, earthrend is awesome for midranks. It's potency decreases closer to hero, as people will have the HP and dam redux to withstand its effects.
>
>Locust plague changes any forest tile into a desert, it
>spreads, and does very nice damage when it is commune to
>anyone in the room that's hostile. Basically your
>anti-Outlander commune as it can destroy all those piles of
>leaves druids make, help you turn Prosimy wood into desert,
>and generally make life hell for a ranger.

Yes, though I did not use it often. Definitely a niche supp, but a very useful one especially if Outtie is a major enemy. Too bad Destuvius doesn't offer this.

>Storm cloak randomnly casts call lightning on people in your
>area, as well as fire shield of electricity damage on metal
>weapons or people who attempt to get close. It also makes the
>weather worse in an area every time you call it. A nice free
>little buff that can fire on unsuspecting people who walk into
>your area - so kind of like a mini dangersense. Nothing like
>walking Eastern and randomly hitting an assassin who walked
>into the area. Out of all things that can be dispelled for a
>shaman, this is the easiest one to live without - once the
>call lightning affect fires you have several hours (5-6) until
>it will fire again so fighting shamans or paladins is of
>little consequence.

This is a great supp because it is a tremendous upgrade to protective shield. If you are stalking someone by peeking into an area, though, use protective shield instead. The lightning strike tends to give you away. Also not good to use if you are worried about getting flagged in town.

>Typhoon allows you to hit everyone in a room and push them out
>of the room. The damage on it is sizable (OBLITs were not
>uncommon), the lag on it is low, and it allowed you to push
>people out of the room. Only works outdoors and apparently
>works better on the water but didn't notice anything than a
>slight damage increase. The #1 use on water would be pushing
>people into the whirlpool but you can't because unless they're
>waterbreathing, you're unable to push them into that room -
>lame.;

I also did not come up with any real strategic use for this, but I'm sure smarter people than me will provide enlightenment.

>
>

So let's get into specific paths - the demon path.

Out of every path I've had, this is by far the worst. This is because it struggles to give any edge in utility/damage that isn't outclassed by another path, is incredibly random, and is generally lackluster.

So first off, Demonic summons - you have a very small chance to summon a crappy demon to fight someone you just summoned.. or if they flee immediately, it fights you. This block of text below is what I reported to Daevryn/Umiron.... I can run numbers now if you want but honestly it didn't change at all.

161 summon casts (95% to 99% spell) over the last 8 days only cast on players
90 casts were successful = 55% success rate
9 demons were summoned (78% skill) = 5% a demon shows up overall

1) That means on average, 1 out of every 20 casts, a demon shows up. If you want to only count successes, it's 1 out of 10.
2) It's health is incredibly low - on average it'd last 3 rounds and seems to have no skills. Sindrir and Szeven have killed it 2 rounds.
3) It also hits me and chases me if they flee immediately.
4) It has never improved - I have it as my skill learn. Since it took around 1000+ summons to get to 95% from 63% with 22int and secure morale, I'm not seeing this skill really improving much before I age/con die. *This is still broken*

Here's it being 3-rounded by a sub-par warrior in the absolute best case scenario (a locked room they don't just flee from):

Hidden Room

]

<419hp 655m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>> com summon Zartuul
You failed.

<419hp 605m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>> com summon Zartuul
You failed.

<419hp 555m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>> com summon Zartuul
Zartuul arrives suddenly.
As you summon Zartuul, a demon slips between worlds and seizes its chance to strike!
A lesser bone demon's claw EVISCERATES Zartuul!

<419hp 505m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>>
Zartuul's cleave MASSACRES a lesser bone demon!
Zartuul's cleave MASSACRES a lesser bone demon!
Zartuul's cleave MASSACRES a lesser bone demon!

<419hp 505m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>>
Zartuul gets a shimmering pink potion from a makeshift wooden trunk.

<419hp 505m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>> com 'blindness' Zartuul
Zartuul yells 'Die, Ptolo, you sorcerous dog!'
You narrow your eyes and glare in Zartuul's direction.
Zartuul shakes his head in rebellion, shrugging off your divine power.

<419hp 500m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>>
Zartuul's cleave DISMEMBERS a lesser bone demon!
Zartuul's slash MASSACRES a lesser bone demon!

<419hp 500m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>> com 'blindness' Zartuul

Zartuul's kicked dirt misses you.
You yell 'Die, Zartuul! You dirty fool!'
Zartuul has some small but disgusting cuts.

<419hp 500m 535mv 2562tnl <2 PM>>
You narrow your eyes and glare in Zartuul's direction.
Zartuul clutches his eyes in pain as Saraba answers your demands!
Zartuul parries your pierce.
Zartuul's cleave MASSACRES a lesser bone demon!
Zartuul's slash DISMEMBERS a lesser bone demon!
A lesser bone demon is DEAD!!
Zartuul has some small but disgusting cuts.

Across the lives of two characters, I summoned a total of 20 demons. Across Ptolo and 75+ hours of usage, only thirteen - none of them made zero difference. Needless to say, Demonic summons blows.

Now it's time to talk about the aspects:

// You have a very very slight chance of disarming your opponent while gaining a vulnerability to light (marans!) and a decrease to your int/wis. It was cute disarming Ychram without irongrip and destroying his weapon but it made zero difference on other characters. I tried it against Sindrir, Szeven, Zartuul, and other warriors and I think I disarmed them once. It fired a total of 30 times for Ptolo, and worked 15 times (including mobs).
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies light resistance by -33 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies constitution by 3 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies acid resistance by 38 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies strength by 3 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies bash resistance by 38 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies wisdom by -2 for 6 hours.
Commune: 'challegha aspect' modifies intelligence by -1 for 6 hours.

// You auto-attack paladins, which got me killed twice, as the paladins can just flee/return and out-melee you while you're permalagged. You also take a shot to your wisdom. Mental resist seemed to do nothing against neuro spam from transmuters, it worked almost every time against an arial with -70 spell and -35 paralysis plus this aspect. Sadly this is your 2nd best aspect.
Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies mental resistance by 38 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies constitution by 4 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies fire resistance by 38 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies wisdom by -2 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies charisma by -1 for 7 hours.

// You have an extremely low chance to poison them (they can resist and it's very low damage). The resistance seemed to do little to a poisoner thief, who still slept me twice, landed neuro twice first try, and landed fear poison through combat - all with the aspect on. The most disappointing aspect by far.
Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies poison resistance by 300 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies wisdom by -1 for 7 hours.
Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies dexterity by 3 for 7 hours.

// Perm flight and dark feast, the imperial power. You also get the bonus hp which counters the resists of all other aspects. Oh yeah, and zero downside, which every other aspect has.
Commune: 'morosa aspect' for 8 hours.
Commune: 'morosa aspect' modifies hp by 114 for 8 hours.

As Akresius said, you basically always use morosa after you get it. The rest are rarely better used, come with strong downsides, and rarely fire their other intended effect. Morosa at least gives you the hitpoints which is always good - dark feast is kinda meh, always has been but it's really not useful for shamans. You cannot continue consecutive fights like a necro/anti-paladin so having a heal after you win one doesn't change the fact you have to leave to get mana.

There's also something very important to note here - all of these are easily dispellable. Fight a paladin with light-... hah, who am I kidding, they all have it, or anyone with dispel like another shaman and almost your entire path is nullified. There's no way you can spend the 100 mana to bring it back up and it costs only 20 mana to dispel it. Demon path is basically useless against shamans or anyone with dispel. Also 60% of your path is mutually exlusive - you cannot stack aspects or even swap them during a fight. You pick one and it's what you're stuck with because it's too costly to reapply and too risky to dispel hundreds of mana and several supplications trying to change it up.

Finally let's talk about abyssal flame.

You have an extremely rare chance to fire a random commune when using demonfire. The communes range... from change sex/garble, to all the crappy mini spells like muddle/lethargy/etc, to actual maledictions like plague/blind/etc. There's also an extremely low chance you fire demonfire again... and yes, you can get a second abyssal effect. It happened once.

It fired 157 times in 920 casts - 17% of the time at roughly 80-85% in the skill.

I'd venture to say out of those 157, a useful spell/commune fired and actually landed maybe 1/10th of the time. So you're talking 2% of the time you actually improved your demonfire.

Let's not forget that demonfire only works on opposite alignments unless you get an expensive edge called Inquisitor. Let's also not forget that the damage is incredibly variable even in perfect situations - it ranges from DISMEMBERS to OBLITS.

So one of the top abilities of a path, fires 2% of the time to some uncontrollably use, which really just saves you from communing your own malediction.... when generally you use damage spells to finish a fight when they're already maledicted enough. It's also less powerful than basically every other path damage commune - literally, I cannot think of another path's commune that does less than this.

I never got to acid spray... on two separate shamans, I never got that far because on Anastar I hated the path enough to delete and then Ptolo had his life ended prematurely. I highly doubt it even comes close to the power of things like earthrend or miasma, but that's for another post on another path.

By far, across all 13 paths, this is the worst one.

>So let's get into specific paths - the demon path.
>
>Out of every path I've had, this is by far the worst. This is
>because it struggles to give any edge in utility/damage that
>isn't outclassed by another path, is incredibly random, and is
>generally lackluster.
>
>So first off, Demonic summons - you have a very small chance
>to summon a crappy demon to fight someone you just summoned..
>or if they flee immediately, it fights you. This block of text
>below is what I reported to Daevryn/Umiron.... I can run
>numbers now if you want but honestly it didn't change at all.
>
>161 summon casts (95% to 99% spell) over the last 8 days
>only cast on players
>90 casts were successful = 55% success rate
>9 demons were summoned (78% skill) = 5% a demon shows up
>overall
>
>1) That means on average, 1 out of every 20 casts, a demon
>shows up. If you want to only count successes, it's 1 out of
>10.
>2) It's health is incredibly low - on average it'd last 3
>rounds and seems to have no skills. Sindrir and Szeven have
>killed it 2 rounds.
>3) It also hits me and chases me if they flee immediately.
>4) It has never improved - I have it as my skill learn. Since
>it took around 1000+ summons to get to 95% from 63% with 22int
>and secure morale, I'm not seeing this skill really improving
>much before I age/con die. *This is still broken*
>
>Here's it being 3-rounded by a sub-par warrior in the absolute
>best case scenario (a locked room they don't just flee from):

>Across the lives of two characters, I summoned a total of 20
>demons. Across Ptolo and 75+ hours of usage, only thirteen -
>none of them made zero difference. Needless to say, Demonic
>summons blows.

Um, getting a bonus mob that auto-attacks someone you summoned blows? What nonsense! You see that pass-door potion he took out there? That command could have been 'quaff return'. Either way, HE DIDN'T GET TO DO IT because the bone demon initiated combat instantly. How can you not see this?


>Now it's time to talk about the aspects:

I also did not use Challega much.
>
>// You auto-attack paladins, which got me killed twice, as the
>paladins can just flee/return and out-melee you while you're
>permalagged. You also take a shot to your wisdom. Mental
>resist seemed to do nothing against neuro spam from
>transmuters, it worked almost every time against an arial with
>-70 spell and -35 paralysis plus this aspect. Sadly this is
>your 2nd best aspect.
>Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies mental resistance by 38
>for 7 hours.
>Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies constitution by 4 for 7
>hours.
>Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies fire resistance by 38
>for 7 hours.
>Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies wisdom by -2 for 7
>hours.
>Commune: 'mors-gravis aspect' modifies charisma by -1 for 7
>hours.

Auto-attack paladins is awesome as long as you can beat them. Otherwise, it can get you into trouble.

>// You have an extremely low chance to poison them (they can
>resist and it's very low damage). The resistance seemed to do
>little to a poisoner thief, who still slept me twice, landed
>neuro twice first try, and landed fear poison through combat -
>all with the aspect on. The most disappointing aspect by far.
>Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies poison resistance by 300
>for 7 hours.
>Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies wisdom by -1 for 7
>hours.
>Commune: 'harmentia aspect' modifies dexterity by 3 for 7
>hours.

Harmentia resistance to poison worked great for me. It sadly does not affect knock-out poison (I sent a frustrated pray about this, too), but I generally found poisoner thieves to be even less of a threat than before because of this path. I never had to worry about fear poison (mino). Also worked really well on that Nightreaver Venoms shaman.

>// Perm flight and dark feast, the imperial power. You also
>get the bonus hp which counters the resists of all other
>aspects. Oh yeah, and zero downside, which every other aspect
>has.
>Commune: 'morosa aspect' for 8 hours.
>Commune: 'morosa aspect' modifies hp by 114 for 8 hours.

This was my goto path as well. Dark feast was great, especially on corpses you PKed. More HP, -svs, longer duration.

>As Akresius said, you basically always use morosa after you
>get it. The rest are rarely better used, come with strong
>downsides, and rarely fire their other intended effect. Morosa
>at least gives you the hitpoints which is always good - dark
>feast is kinda meh, always has been but it's really not useful
>for shamans. You cannot continue consecutive fights like a
>necro/anti-paladin so having a heal after you win one doesn't
>change the fact you have to leave to get mana.
>
>There's also something very important to note here - all of
>these are easily dispellable. Fight a paladin with light-...
>hah, who am I kidding, they all have it, or anyone with dispel
>like another shaman and almost your entire path is nullified.
>There's no way you can spend the 100 mana to bring it back up
>and it costs only 20 mana to dispel it. Demon path is
>basically useless against shamans or anyone with dispel. Also
>60% of your path is mutually exlusive - you cannot stack
>aspects or even swap them during a fight. You pick one and
>it's what you're stuck with because it's too costly to reapply
>and too risky to dispel hundreds of mana and several
>supplications trying to change it up.

See my comment about your views on mana use above.

>Finally let's talk about abyssal flame.
>
>You have an extremely rare chance to fire a random commune
>when using demonfire. The communes range... from change
>sex/garble, to all the crappy mini spells like
>muddle/lethargy/etc, to actual maledictions like
>plague/blind/etc. There's also an extremely low chance you
>fire demonfire again... and yes, you can get a second abyssal
>effect. It happened once.

Abyssal flame is awesome. Having the ability to land additional maledicts using one supp solves the very problem you complain about: not enough mana! Now I don't have to waste mana (or rounds) on curse/poison/plague because I have a supp that does it for you. The best is when you demonfire, the random added sup is demonfire, and then it fires a third time. True, it was rare, but it surprised at least one of my PKs who were gushing blood.

>It fired 157 times in 920 casts - 17% of the time at roughly
>80-85% in the skill.

Seems like it fired a lot more often than that for me.

>I'd venture to say out of those 157, a useful spell/commune
>fired and actually landed maybe 1/10th of the time. So you're
>talking 2% of the time you actually improved your demonfire.
>
>Let's not forget that demonfire only works on opposite
>alignments unless you get an expensive edge called Inquisitor.
>Let's also not forget that the damage is incredibly variable
>even in perfect situations - it ranges from DISMEMBERS to
>OBLITS.

Yes, this was sad. With my Scarab, I did not have a good damage option to use against Imperials/Neutrals. Then again, Scarab dogma is that your #1 enemy are the Maran.

>I never got to acid spray... on two separate shamans, I never
>got that far because on Anastar I hated the path enough to
>delete and then Ptolo had his life ended prematurely. I highly
>doubt it even comes close to the power of things like
>earthrend or miasma, but that's for another post on another
>path.

I never got it either.