In the last week or so, I've had a bunch of folks in the ol realm of the dead. You know, the place where you, as a mort, don't really want to be. But it made me think that posting some advice on how to handle those situations as a mort, might help.

Two straight people asked why all their characters were being persecuted when I talked to them in ROD. I had no clue what other characters either of them played, and guess what, most imms don't know, or care either, unless it directly effects why they're there in the first place. At least start your conversation with the imm based on the premise that you're there for a fairly good reason. At the very least, listen before getting angry.

Another important point... 90% of the time I talk to someone in ROD, I'm trying to head off trouble before it really starts. I'll see patterns of behavior that need changing eventually, or I'll just want to give advice. But often, before I'm able to give helpful advice, the mort will take an extremely antagonistic attitude. Please don't do this. We know you don't want to be there. We don't either. If everyone is civil and listens to each other, things go a lot smoother.

Third, if it happens to you consistently, don't immediately cry 'imm conspiracy'. Ever hear the old joke 'Doctor is hurts when I do this? What should I do?' 'Stop doing that'. Basically, if you're in there fairly often, you might want to consider changing your behavior.

Khas

This is a very useful post, and I agree completely with Khasotholas that a rules issue that requires a trip to the Realm of the Dead needn't turn into a big production.

1) It's not in your interests to lie. We're not going to pull you aside on rumors, the accusations of other players, or good guesses. We're going to pull you aside when we're looking at facts that show us a rules problem. Generally, the second someone tells me something that I know isn't true, the meeting becomes short and doesn't go well for the player. I don't have the time or inclination to deal with that, so be up front with what happened. If I get the sense that the player in question needs something explained so that there isn't a future problem, I don't mind taking a couple minutes to go over that. If you disagree with the interpretation of the facts, you can present your side of the story, and we definitely take mitigating circumstances into account when deciding if the situation just needs a warning, or if it needs something more strict.

2) It's not the time to test out your comedy act. Generally, the Immortal in question has several other things they need to get back to, and would rather be doing any of those instead of rules duty, which no one likes. If they have to take time out to deal with cheating, they generally want it to be short, professional, and civil. Making light of the situation wastes time at the least. It may also give the the staff member the impression that you don't take the rules very seriously, and might go and do the same thing again.

3) It's also not a good time to ask for favors. For some reason that escapes me, people who get busted for cheating sometimes think it's a good time to ask if I've seen Immortal X around, or if we're interested in making some new feature. (One particularly obtuse individual decided this was a good time to ask if we're hiring builders, and offered to present all sorts of qualifications.) Again, your actions probably pulled a staff member away from doing something they'd rather be doing. Please don't try to extend that meeting.

4) This is not a courtroom. You're on private property, and you're more like a guest at a party than a defendent in a court of law. If you're a jerk to the hosts of the party, there isn't going to be a huge trial- they're just going to ask you to leave. Trying to lawyer your way around small details of the wording of the rules isn't going to work if your actions violate the spirit of the law. To give a common example, if items of yours conveniently find their way onto another one of your characters, we're not interested in discussing the exact definition of the word "transfer" ("see... when it touches the donation pit, it's not really 'mine' anymore....")- we're interesting in trying to make sure OOC equipment transfer doesn't happen, and all we really need to know is that you caused them to go from Point A to Point B.

In summary, if you're pulled aside:
1) Be honest about what you did and why you did it. If your intentions were good and the situation was unusual in some way, explain it so the staff member can take it into account. If you were just plain cheating, it still helps both of you if the meeting is short and free of hostility.

2) Make sure you ask if you're unclear on why there is a problem. We're not going to be happy if you get pulled a second time for the same thing.

3) Assume that the staff member in question is a reasonable adult who appreciates being treated like a reasonable adult.

4) If there really is a problem with how you're being treated, use the appropriate channels to report it. Spamming us, rolling up characters with stupid names, yelling dumb things in Galadon, and similar actions will only convince us that you're a moron. Sending a note or email to one or more of the people under 'help admin' is the way to do things if you want to see a result. Include the name of your character (if emailed), along with the date and time of the incident and a description of the problem.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

>3) It's also not a good time to ask for favors. For some reason >that escapes me, people who get busted for cheating sometimes think >it's a good time to ask if I've seen Immortal X around, or if we're >interested in making some new feature. (One particularly obtuse >individual decided this was a good time to ask if we're hiring >builders, and offered to present all sorts of qualifications.) >Again, your actions probably pulled a staff member away from doing >something they'd rather be doing. Please don't try to extend that >meeting.

***Let me preface this by saying if I ever have been pulled to the ROTD, it was so many years ago that I don't even remember it***

This touches on a recent post of mine, inre: scheduled chats. I have a pretty good guess why this happens. For most players the only informal interaction that they have with the imm staff is when they are in the desc room, or horribly, get pulled to the ROTD. Since playing CF is by definition a time intensive hobby, and given to minute number crunching and analysis, the people that play I think naturally want some contact with the people who facilitate their game. A couple of for instances, everyone knows Jullias is el honcho, but no one knows if he plays anymore etc. Similarly, Boltthrower is still listed on the Skull page, but who knows what he does? I use these two examples not because I think either of these IMMs don't do anything for the game (obviously they do) but because as a player, I will never have contact with either of them, but am naturally curious as to what they do, do they enjoy themselves, etc. On the surface the forums would allieviate this lack of communication, but for whatever reason, these forums (with the exception of the battlefield) are often very antagonistic and us vs. themish. (On both sides mind you, not trying to endict the imms here). I think that this can be summed up pretty well by something someone said on dios recently, that when the IMMs log on to the forums or the game, from a players perspective (mind you I am sure you don't feel this way) they put on a suit and tie.

Now.... One of the main reasons CF is such an *amazing* game is that it has a high level of professional polish. You guys obviously take lots of time, and great pride in making sure that the world is coherent (the more I think about certain backstory elements, the cooler they are, and the more things they hook into, one good example being the whole area of Organia) and that there are no typos, the help files are complete, etc. Basically we get to play a game that has the trappings of a professional product, without having to pay. So obviously, when you have an amateur (not in skill level but in monetary outlay required of participants) endevour with a professional level of quality, the organizers are going to begin to take a certain professional outlook towards it, and that is going to be reflected in the quality and in the attitude of the organizers. However, this will lead many players I think to have a certain nervousness when it comes to the IMM staff. I know several players ooc, and the relaxed ones, inre immortal contact and things like that are mostly former imms, or people that have been around long enough to remember the days when the level of formality (and the general quality of the game) were lower. However, the newer players I know OOC all seem to have this view of the imms as Terrible And Majestic. This leads to higher quality IC interactions probably, because the veil of mystery is intact, and each IC interaction has that sense of wonder about it. Pretty hard to have that if you are praying to Drokanaltym, and have Nep on AIM, so at the same time the big dragon is emoting eating you, you are Messaging D00D omg! That was teh 1337!.

However, this leads back to my original comment. I would guess that players do that because for many people the ROTD is the only interaction they will have, real time, with the imms that isnt an IC interaction.

I just skip all that by reporting bugs and balance oversights :)

-Devin

Player/IMM/Newbie interfacing can always stand to improve. However, getting yourself pulled to ROTD is hardly the best way to patch up relations.

"On the surface the forums would allieviate this lack of communication, but for whatever reason, these forums (with the exception of the battlefield) are often very antagonistic and us vs. themish. (On both sides mind you, not trying to endict the imms here)."

The Battlefield can also be quite antagonistic, since it a forum where players are formally subject to public scrutiny and immortal critique.

As far as antagonism on official forums between players and IMMs, Valg aptly summed things up in his post on "Change Fearers." IMMs are genuinely interested in addressing player concerns, yet routinely face criticism. The resulting breakdown in communications leaves players feeling neglected, and IMMs feeling unappreciated (and vice versa).

Posts on the official forums should be constructive and civil. All too often, they deteriorate into one of several patterns that result in conflict. Culling through the messages I am almost tempted to write up an official CF Rant & Complaint Form:


Please insert a standard introductory rant or expletive that best illustrates your feelings:
A. Let me first say that I study Elvish at University of Yzrjkrbia with a minor in Duergar, and that you guys have it ALL wrong, here.
B. This sucks.
C. ******* ****** *********!
D. None. I enjoy CF but have some improvements to suggest.

Please identify the problem.
A. Let ME, tell YOU who has a problem.
B. Deathblow, centurions, and manacles seem unreasonably powerful at first glance.
C. You guys nerfed everything. It was so much easier when I didn't have to RP.
D. Clearly stated, the problem is: ___________________________________

Why is this a problem?
A. If you can't see the problem then it's obvious that YOU have a problem.
B. Because it looks horribly imbalanced, based on my observation.
C. Because I can't kill people as easily as I did before, or I died.
D. It is a problem because:________________________________________________

What changes or solutions do you propose?
A. Work with me, here. I need you to help ME, help YOU.
B. None, really. Just my 2 coppers worth. FYI and all that.
C. Give me the power I want so I can kill people easily again. Fire IMM X, who is clearly responsible for this problem.
D. I propose several alternatives: 1. ________ 2. _________ 3._________

Any last comments?
A. You just don't get it, do you?
B. I think there is a conspiracy wherein one or more of you is out to get me.
C. In conclusion, you are all bastards. I am not having fun anymore. IMM X ruined it.
D. I love CF - especially these aspects: 1. _________ 2. __________ 3. _________


A post that incorporates (D) into its content will receive the best treatment and minimize antagonism from players and IMMs. Posts incorporating answers from (A), (B), or (C) will generate conflict. They are typical responses from players suffering from narcissism, fear of change, or who enjoy kicking dead horses. (D) represents a proactive player who wishes to help carry the game into the future.

"I think that this can be summed up pretty well by something someone said on dios recently, that when the IMMs log on to the forums or the game, from a players perspective (mind you I am sure you don't feel this way) they put on a suit and tie."

Player-run circles have certain freedoms and benefits. After all, the participants have nothing at stake and no responsibilities. They can say whatever they want: "X is overpowered and the IMMs should change it." . As a result, these circles will seem more "fun" and accessible. Even then, you will see that there are often player-administrators who regulate what other players say.

Immortal-run forums are inherently more serious. As representatives of the game, IMMs should try to be exemplary administrators who behave responsibly. They have to set aside personal interests for the benefit of the game and are constrained by duties and obligations that players are not. Their actions affect more people, and their mistakes are more costly. For these reasons, IMMs may seem bureaucratic or impersonal. However, it is done out of necessity and IMMs are people, too.

Again, no one should try to be a ROTD martyr. If you want positive IMM interaction, focus on your characters IC and maintaining a civil forum presence OOC. It is better for everyone.

>B. Deathblow, centurions, and manacles seem unreasonably powerful at >first glance.

Yeah, make light of things. I think the arguments against centurions and manacles (as they are) are pretty strong.

*snip flame-y stuff*

You don't care what I think, though.

I love CF - especially the PK, interaction, and PK.

I personally think Audriel should say what he/she feels when he/she feels like it.

My last char was Zkatholef, who was wanted for a ####-loiad of time, and as a magic user, I'm quite satisfied that manacles are not overpowered against anyone not involved in a raid. I was able, whilst wanted, to walk into Galadon on a number of occasions and chew up the tribs, sometimes with no preps at all, simply by using the advantage of knowing they were in Galadon.

When I died, it was to Tyke (Outlander) in semi-solo combat (actually Tjok's presence caused me to relocate which got me killed but Tyke's ultra-fast pursuit led to it in a major way) and to whatever the arial dagger spec is called (he just beat the crap out of me through abs + wall of putrid flesh with a heartseeker or two).

Those of you who are whining about tribs and centurions need to wise up, unless you are actually getting raped during raids (which you might well be) in which case maybe you should start to see things as something different than "capture the flag" and take on some of the guerilla tactics your cabal powers are suited to.

For ####'s sake people. All the tools are laid at your disposal and you insist on charging in for a toe-to-toe encounter in a situation where your enemy can lay super-smack on you.

You were Zkatholef? Cool.

Anyway. Here's what I say: a thief + shaman/necro/a-p behind centurions have an almost sure kill if you get summoned. You can say "avoid eastern road!" but I'm not interested in avoiding eastern road. Nor is anyone else. I want a chance to escape in that situation. I think the centurion modification (Distaur's idea) I suggested a little upwards on the forum is pretty good.

Mate, I hate to say it, but the tribunals you fought in that town battle were effing retarded. Like, seriously.

My philosophy on CF is that there should always be a chance of turning the tides and fighting back. You want a game of evasion and striking when the time is right. I'm all for that too, but I also want a game where you can strike at the enemy where they're strongest and turn the tides with luck and skill. Manacles, completely disabling mage spells, and that specific combo (and other aspects of centurions) do not lend itself well to that type of game.

I think my game is more fun.

Anyway, good luck with whatever you do and come back when you can.

Timmy.

I guess if you want to be asinine instead of taking something constructive out of Audriel's post, that's your right.

It sure doesn't make me any more likely to consider your points valid, though. I'm kind of a stubborn ass like that.

But that was a cheap shot out of Audriel. Really, the arguments from people like me who dislike centurions and manacles as they are deserve some consideration, not backhanded insults.

I respond to backhanded insults with flames sometimes. I'm an assclown like that, maybe.

The point really is... saying 'damn it, centurions are overpowered!' is not particularly helpful, constructive, or likely to change anything. Saying that plus 'And here's how I would change them so they are still an awesome power for Empire, while eliminating what I see as the worst situations of them' on the other hand is more constructive and more likely to be taken seriously by us.

Saying 'this sucks' is complaining/whining. Saying 'I think this should be changed in X way' isn't, so much. We prefer it.

That's really the point of what Audriel was saying, if I'm taking it correctly. If so, I agree.

My post is not a response to player opinions about any particular subject. It was a response to the prior post about why there is conflict between IMMs and players. There are certain posts that IMMs don't like to see. See Valg's post on Change Fearers: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=4555&mesg_id=4555.

In that post, at least four counterproductive posting styles are defined:

1) "This new feature is useless. I read the helpfile and I know."
2) "This new feature is overpowered and will ruin my fun. I read a log where someone used it, and I know."
3) "This new feature isn't as good as the old version. Of course, the old version isn't as good as the one we had back in 1995, when game balance and roleplaying were both perfect, and no one ever took anything from anyone's corpse."
4) "Blah blah blah nerfed blah blah blah."

If a game administrator takes the time to say, "Please do not be rude. Please be polite and reasonable," is that too much to ask? Yet, AMAZINGLY, players still use options 1, 2, 3, and 4 to make their points.

"You don't care what I think, though."

You are welcome to dislike Centurions or Manacles, and I defend your right to that opinion. I hated having to face them, myself. However, drawing out the same arguments repeatedly will just frustrate both sides.

Your opinion is welcomed, if you don't use 1,2,3, or 4 to get your idea across. Otherwise, we love player feedback/critique regarding any game concept. Why else do you think we are here? I really don't know how to be more clear about this point. Look at the Announcement Board, for example. What are these changes for, if not for the players?

In fact, there are even changes within the past few weeks that were directly made in response to a player post. Some examples:

Ghost movement points at death fixed (note the unappreciative nature of the post, and the problem was STILL fixed): http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=5628&mesg_id=5628
Energy Drain changed: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=5657&mesg_id=5657&page=
Offline helpfile/guide for newbies requested: http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=5&topic_id=472&mesg_id=472

Last but not least, look at the Bug Board. How many players take the time to say, "Thanks?" Instead, IMMs often get more of 1, 2, 3, and 4 above. Do you see why there might be a bit of a rift between players and IMMs?

Anyhow, I think we were on different pages. My post was not about you, or centurions/manacles. I am glad you still play the game and feel strongly about your ideas. In no way do I want to shoot down your opinions -- only to show a preferred way to present them... Nor did I say that you have committed 1 through 4. Simply stated: it is better to use the constructive style that Valg suggested. I hope this eases your feelings, somewhat.

I avoided posting any thank yous on the bugboard because I assumed imms would rather see only posts that reported bugs or might help fix them.

Me too, The nature of the bug board seems to be "Keep it short and sweet".

START
PLayer X: Report Bug A
Imm Y: Bug A (FNCR)
FINISH

Personally, I'd say thanks but I guess I don't because it's a moderated forum and I assumed that meant clutter free. Also, in order for the post to appear someone has to allow it.