I've been playing since the mid-late 90s and given my general lack of commitment and laziness, I would still consider myself a newb. I have no secret lists, although I did type "charred leather bracer" into Excel once. I forgot to save.

I think the attempt to steer CF away from powergaming is commendable and I'm sure it's difficult to balance the following:
1) Keep veterans engaged while giving new players a fighting chance
2) Reduce the incentives for players to solo their characters (statistics-based playing)
3) Provide incentives to RP without appearing to engage in favoritism.
4) Inject more realism into the game without making it a chore (see previous requests for defecate and urinate skills - I'm still in favor)

Valg's post above at least shows that changes are discussed before implementation, and not just on a whim. I think the only thing that could be improved at this point is perhaps (and when fitting) an explanation of WHY things are changing instead of just WHAT the change is.

Of course, we'll still whine and cry and 2 players from Omaha will leave. If 2 vets leave and 4 new players sign on for the long haul, I'd say that's a win.

Sorry for the rambling. Didn't get much sleep.

Feel free to use new threads to continue discussion on topics that are still active.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

1. More powerful items from area explore, often seen as secret and changed when it becomes common knowledge.

2. More limited items and fewer good unlimited ones.

3. It is more advantageous to solo or stop leveling to practice skills because my giant has easier to tank at low level than hero mobs. I can no longer perfect my skills on low level mobs.

4. RP/Role/Exploration/PK gives more advantages if you tailor them a certain way. If I want to play a simple son of a farmer that went to the big city to be a warrior and explore / rp as I go along I will most likely not get noticed. If I however plays a paladin that defended his village with his family's thousand old sword and it shattered; imbuing him with the souls of all his ancestors. Making him yell out things and seeking some Imm. Then I will get noticed and mechanically rewarded. If I run through htos for the 20th time I will get rewarded.

You don't HAVE to do that but a power gamer will do it and will get rewarded for it.

I feel the game is more steered towards the Immortals deciding who the power players will be.

The following is directly controlled by immortals:
1) Certain area access and thus access to gear
2) Quest forms
3) Necromancer becomings
4) Edges
5) Bonus legacies/dedications/etc

Changes in the game see to always steer towards more Immortal control over characters. It is not the player behind the character that decides the height ceiling for that character, it is the Immortals that decide it. I see them as out-of-control control freaks, trying to neutralise the playing field between grizzled veterans and newbies all the while allowing themselves to pick who who the apex predators will be.

It's their game. They can (and will) change it however they want. The only choice we get is whether or not we want to invest time playing their game.

>I feel the game is more steered towards the Immortals
>deciding who the power players will be.
>
>The following is directly controlled by immortals:
>1) Certain area access and thus access to gear

Like I said in another reply, one area. Just one out of the 250+ areas or 30+ explore areas.

>2) Quest forms

Correct. These are rewards that aren't meant to be a part of standard player expectation.

>3) Necromancer becomings

A) Anyone can attempt to initiate a Lich quest and in my time as an Immortal, every person who has tried has gotten one. The individual that did not had low hours, few accomplishments, and no follow through.

B) We added Mummies and Wights to address your concern.

>4) Edges

Mathamatically, edges are more in player hands than Immortals. Saying that edges are "directly" controlled by Immortals, at least in the sense of your access to them, demonstrates a gross ignorance of how this game works.

>5) Bonus legacies/dedications/etc

Correct. These are rewards that aren't meant to be a part of standard player expectation.
>
>Changes in the game see to always steer towards more Immortal
>control over characters. It is not the player behind the
>character that decides the height ceiling for that character,
>it is the Immortals that decide it. I see them as
>out-of-control control freaks, trying to neutralise the
>playing field between grizzled veterans and newbies all the
>while allowing themselves to pick who who the apex predators
>will be.

You're ####ing crazy, sir.

>It's their game. They can (and will) change it however they
>want. The only choice we get is whether or not we want to
>invest time playing their game.

That's a lame way of looking at things, but I guess it's true. No player the ability to make us do anything we don't want to do or to commit changes to the game themselves. So literally speaking, yeah sure.

But of course we do the best job we can as game designers and administrators and we hope we're successful in our endeavor to create a game that we both enjoy and are proud of and that will attract players who enjoy it too.

Sure - one area with some of the most 'powerful' equipment in it. Some of the items in there can STRONGLY sway PK fights.

THIS is the reason why so many people have a problem with the IMMxp requirement for ST.

It isn't about no acccess to 'one area'

it's about the IMMpets WITH access having gear that makes/breaks fights.

You truly expect me to believe that you don't understand how people could see the IMM's controlling who has access and who doesn't to an area containing some of "the best" gear in the game ripe for favoritism/abuse?

Let me follow up by asking - If everything I said in the prior paragraph is false, then why is this necessary? Why do IMM's need to control who gets to 'go' to ST and who doesn't.

at the end of the day, a spade is a spade sir. And this #### is a spade.

The rest of your points are fine, but ST is total ####.

ST is a subtle area and people would brute force it with throwaways if there wasn't the (easy) imm exp requirement.

Maybe with your 'circle' it is, I'm sure were I a member of that inner 'circle' still I would've been there and back again!

By the way to summarize your post:

"This has been answered, IMM's don't want anybody not on their "A" list to have access because they are afraid of brute forcing"

Well #### that. The funny thing is - even if I had access, I probably wouldn't go explore it - not my thing. The fact that I have to be an IMM sycophant suck-up to get access is the real issue at hand.

And your post has done nothing to discredit that. I am not the only vocal person about this, nor do I believe that I am the minority. I'd wager most folks would want this requirement lifted.

Toning down the requirements is what most would argue for, not removing them entirely. Some people know lots about the area, most people know squat, and going there can seriously F*** a char. (remember the lich that age died there not long ago?) If there are zero reqs to enter the place, how many power gamers would roll throw aways to learn the area, just so they could then gain a PK advantage with ST gear with future characters?

Per your own post, you still wouldn't explore it, so the PK inequities ST allegedly creates (nice gear is far less scary to me than a competent PKer) would only be more evident against the players who don't go there.

2000 might be a little high with the split off from Role xp, but that's not our call as players. If anything, it makes it all the rarer for people to go there, and then limits even more what people are using from there. Are you worried about the super elite RPers having ST gear? Usually, but not always, great RPers are less than stellar at PK. Giving them high end gear doesn't make them death machines.

From my understanding, even people who know the place die there. A lot. It has a lot of risk, even to experienced players. By making it be accessible to people who have invested in their chars, it means they aren't just running in and farming gear out of there, because they have a lot to lose potentially.

Question is, how does ST really effect you.
Sure, the few chars who have access might get gear.
Kill them, take it. It's just like hell gear.
The easiest way to get it, kill the person who has it.

And the Immpet classification of players?
Come on.
That shows your own bias.
Having Immxp is a function of playing CF, not a function of favoritism. Being any kind of net positive for the game gets you there. Imms don't hide the sort of things they look for or reward. If you choose to ignore all those facets of CF in how you play, that's more on you. It's the assumption by players that it is so blatantly ongoing with some sort of inner circle of players, without any real truth to it, that only furthers the divide between player and staff.

I've never had an issue gaining Imm xp. I know zero Imms. My chars usually have an Imm or three who pretty actively won't like them because of how I play or what I do IC. I've yet to experience any negative consequences IC because an Imm doesn't personally like my chars. I know I've annoyed Baer many times with silly IC stuff, and yet I know for a fact on any char I play going forward, if I had a reason to, I could visit her when she was vis and RP with her without any problems. Every player has equal access to the Imms. If a player refuses to play anything that makes use of that opportunity, but blaming others who do, that is on the player, not the Imm.

Some people see players that talk to Imms as working the system. Go spend an hour RPing with Ysal. Tell me it isn't one of the best experiences you have in CF. That's the reason people want to interact with Imms (a few people that do try to work the system can't be used to label everyone) They are great Rpers that are usually extremely good at the RP/immersion side of CF, that believe it or not, lots of players actually enjoy. I'd rather spend an hour in the Inn RPing with characters and Imms then hunting someone to PK the 1000th time.

And since 99% of the MUD is accessible without Imm xp, I fail to see this as such a blatant problem. How often are people really losing a PK solely because one guy had ST gear and they didn't?

"And the Immpet classification of players?
Come on.
That shows your own bias.
Having Immxp is a function of playing CF, not a function of favoritism. Being any kind of net positive for the game gets you there. Imms don't hide the sort of things they look for or reward. If you choose to ignore all those facets of CF in how you play, that's more on you. It's the assumption by players that it is so blatantly ongoing with some sort of inner circle of players, without any real truth to it, that only furthers the divide between player and staff."

This pretty much summarizes everything I felt that needed to be said. I could not say it with this level of decorum because as an individual, I am rapidly losing patience with certain members of the community for continuing to beat a dead horse.

Suffice to say that the particular attitude which some members continue to exhibit, even if linked to their own impassioned opinions (which I hope is the case, rather than just causing outright discord) is not going to be conducive to obtaining the best results from the staff, especially the staff who care about the game/community the most.

Awesome area.

Cool design.

Just doesn't work in today's CF.

Which means that people are more likely to get it closed* than to effect any other kind of change.

This would probably be to the detriment of players who enjoy exploration, and to players who are okay with the current system.

*Not meant as a threat, or whatever, and I wouldn't even begin to suggest what course of action Daevryn should, or would take. But if I was the author, having repeatedly explained the reasoning behind such a function, I think for lack of a better system I'd probably close it off again.

Honestly, is the hate you (the IMMs) and Nepenthe get even worth having the area?

I mean, don't get me wrong, I read people's goodbyes sometimes and they are like 'Awesome area, wish I hadn't lost so much con there'. However, those goodbyes are much less common than posts about "WTF IS UP WITH IMM XP SILENT REQUIREMENTS" or "WHY DID YOU CHANGE THE FOUNTAINS WTF?!?!?!" or "THAT GEAR IS ####, YOU'RE AN IMM PET!" etc etc.

I just harken back to a post made by Zulg (I think Nep or Ray chimed in too) where he talked about how area explores were going to move towards areas like the Dragon Lairs (which are ####ing awesome and exactly how I picture an area explore) because the time when Hell and Silent fit into CF had ended (ie, Silent and Hell are kinda like the Shadow cabal...it's awesome when the secrecy can be kept but guess what...in today's world it can't).

And FWIW I'm not a big fan of "getting an area taken out". Even though I agreed with my brother that Silent was ####, I still emailed Zulg to let him know my bro was about to dump all his Silent info to spite Nep.

'And FWIW I'm not a big fan of "getting an area taken out". Even though I agreed with my brother that Silent was ####, I still emailed Zulg to let him know my bro was about to dump all his Silent info to spite Nep.'

Good of you to let the staff know about that, because areas like ST must take a godawful amount of writing and code work (as well as thought) to design.

Regardless, some players (I am sure) DO enjoy ST, and no, they aren't likely to be in a cheat ring. This just simply boils down to variance in desires within a population. I do enjoy ST, but then I don't really play CF competitively. Rather than seeing the area as a mechanical advantage giving super-area, I view it as a puzzle to explore and figure out.

Judging from the rhetoric here though, I guess I am in the minority.

Edit: But we should make one thing clear here probably (not specifically for you Sam): If ST does get pulled, this is what the general tone of this conversation and many others like it were leading toward, it isn't on the staff that the area went out of rotation. The staff are merely responding to the (extremely impassioned/heated) feedback they were given, thus the players who have made this an enormous issue need to take the lion's share of the responsibility for the change.

(I say this because I just know that if the area goes out of rotation, I'll look over at the other forums and see threads and threads about how crappy we are etc. So pre-emptively it bears stating on record now. People need to be clear about what they want before they go on a personal crusade.)

An area is in and people are complaining about an aspect of it.

Admin says too bad.

Players continue to complain.

Area gets pulled

Admin says it's the player's fault?

Surely this is some form of logical fallacy. Pulling the area isn't the only option for assuaging player moaning, if assuaging player moaning is the goal.

I've never been in or plan to go into the place or know what comes from there. Just confused by the logic of what you're saying.

This issue has been hashed and rehashed ad nauseum. At some point the time taken to respond to the (repeated) cries to change the system are going to take a lot more effort than keeping the area in is worth.

No system is ideal. This current system is the best (general form of) system that we have to minimize the negatives which we see playing out in game. The reasoning has been explained.

If the shouting over the current state of affairs continues to get louder, the shouters need to assume culpability, especially if that shouting affects a change which they don't want. A change which, incidentally, is the easiest solution to avoid further administrative burden and not disadvantage any particular (group of) player(s) in other ways.

Edit: If it is purely mechanical advantages that the players are worried about, then this isn't an issue at all.

If it is just a case of people wanting an easier ride into the area, then they need to be careful to hide behind the "mechanical advantage" argument for that very reason. And that is the point I am trying to get across.

You folks control the game. If your choice is to remove it instead of find some other solution, that's up to you. I'd remove it myself. You just can't lay the blame the way you're trying to.

Just because it's the easiest route doesn't suddenly make it the whiner's fault.

Now, you can be sure a bystander will say "Now, look what you've gone and done idgit!" to the whiner. However, in reality, the person with their finger on the button makes the call. No one is forcing anyone to do anything.

I assume you folks have been around long enough to know that you can pretty much ignore certain names, because you're wasting your time discussing anything with them.

Sarien, Torak, Tsunami, Scrimbul, Eskelian, and now KaguMaru are all people you should probably not even bother responding to. They are all either bullheaded know-it-alls that won't budge no matter what logic is thrown their way OR dingbats that like to jump in on the really feisty debates.

With multiple infractions in game. Lots of negativity on the other forum and spillover affects onto this board.

I do understand that to most players, Immortals are names (or sometimes anonymous figures) who are just out to screw up their fun.

Unfortunately, the reality is, that there are people and personalities behind the name. Those people and personalities have real lives which include many responsibilities aside from hopping on whatever project players need doing at leisure.

Furthermore, whereas players get to sling as much mud as they like on whichever other alternative "free speech" forum happens to be up at the time, the Immortal staff have to attempt to try and remain professional and polite (though I am sure it is hard) and take whatever abuse gets typed out.

Yes the staff tend to be headstrong and thick-skinned, that tends to be due to survivorship bias. Anyone who cares about how they are viewed either won't apply, or won't last long. But it affects a lot of the staff in smaller ways regardless. If, by joining the staff, you hope to improve the game for the players (my own personal motivation), and you are met by an endless stream of angry diatribe, does that really encourage the best results?

And on ST: I am not saying it will close. I am pointing out that it is an option. An option which would be on the table in a discussion, and a logical option at that, given the scope and magnitude of arguments.

On various names being ignored: I don't believe that people should ever be flat-out ignored unless they are not entirely functional (drugs, dehabilitating mental disorder etc.) It is dangerous to completely ignore players. It's not a mindset which should be encouraged, but some players* are making it increasingly difficult when they cannot look past their own personal wishes and desires, and step into the mentality of a game admin, especially when they have an increasing amount of information on hand about various game aspects. Also, as stated, people are busy. There needs to at least be a modicum of respect on that front as it is difficult to code up even logical and absolutely beneficial projects given resources, ie: something that everyone could unequivocally agree upon. Let alone suggestions which are grandiose in design and scope, to entirely redesign the game.

And yes, I get that you are attempting to inject a little levity here and I am taking you literally. But still, the above is worth stating.

*At least I assume these are current players, and not just disgruntled veterans who think that a relatively minor fix in the grander scheme of things (like removing the Imm Xp requirement to ST) is going to suddenly transport them back into the 1990s/early 2000s and usher in another "Golden Era" of MUD playing.

Because Nick Offerman is my new hero.

Sorry you guys are having such a bad week. You can all come to my place and we can sing songs of Matrikification. It's THERApeutic. Get it?

>With multiple infractions in game. Lots of negativity on the
>other forum and spillover affects onto this board.

Damn. Lots of criminals on the streets these days eh? I would not have guessed that. Is it because you opened Hell so the cheat rings came back? Sorry bro.

>I do understand that to most players, Immortals are names (or
>sometimes anonymous figures) who are just out to screw up
>their fun.

That's true. You know who they are though. It's a small community, so even if you don't, you can learn right quick. Ignore the saps.

>Unfortunately, the reality is, that there are people and
>personalities behind the name. Those people and personalities
>have real lives which include many responsibilities aside from
>hopping on whatever project players need doing at leisure.

True. It's unfortunate that we all are afflicted with the human condition. People suck.

>Furthermore, whereas players get to sling as much mud as they
>like on whichever other alternative "free speech" forum
>happens to be up at the time, the Immortal staff have to
>attempt to try and remain professional and polite (though I am
>sure it is hard) and take whatever abuse gets typed out.

You don't have to remain professional and polite. Everyone in the community (the forums) seems pretty brusque. I'd say jump in and have fun with it. I'd certainly welcome a good poo slinging match with any one of you, any day, any time. It's fun.

>Yes the staff tend to be headstrong and thick-skinned, that
>tends to be due to survivorship bias. Anyone who cares about
>how they are viewed either won't apply, or won't last long.
>But it affects a lot of the staff in smaller ways regardless.
>If, by joining the staff, you hope to improve the game for the
>players (my own personal motivation), and you are met by an
>endless stream of angry diatribe, does that really encourage
>the best results?

Headstrong and thick-skinned. Sounds like you could say the same about players. The entire game is in the imagination. It's no surprise that people imagine slights where there are none. In fact, reading Umiron V Sarien in this very thread seems like a strange escalation of anger between both, when neither one seemed intent on insult.

I'm a little uncertain as to why anyone expects CF-land to be full of anything better than the scum walking the streets in real life.

>And on ST: I am not saying it will close. I am pointing out
>that it is an option. An option which would be on the table
>in a discussion, and a logical option at that, given the scope
>and magnitude of arguments.

That's fine. Just don't blame the players. Daev is the only one that can move on that. Any excuse he makes beyond "I wanted to do it" will be rationalization. Regardless of how understandable that rationalization is.

>On various names being ignored: I don't believe that people
>should ever be flat-out ignored unless they are not entirely
>functional (drugs, dehabilitating mental disorder etc.) It is
>dangerous to completely ignore players. It's not a mindset
>which should be encouraged, but some players are making it
>increasingly difficult when they cannot look past their own
>personal wishes and desires, and step into the mentality of a
>game admin, especially when they have an increasing amount of
>information on hand about various game aspects.

I agree that no one should be ignored. I include the drug addled, mentally ill, and all manner of sub-humans. I also recognize that taking that attitude necessarily means that I will have to be willing to listen to a WHOLE lot of #### to get to the useful bits of human diatribe. I like that word, thanks for reminding me.

>And yes, I get that you are attempting to inject a little
>levity here and I am taking you literally. But still, the
>above is worth stating.

I'm not inserting levity. Only sweet, sweet Matrikisms. Listen and ye be wiser.

*How dare you edit sir.

>*At least I assume these are current players, and not just >disgruntled veterans who think that a relatively minor fix in the >grander scheme of things (like removing the Imm Xp requirement to >ST) is going to suddenly transport them back into the 1990s/early >2000s and usher in another "Golden Era" of MUD playing.

Boy howdy. You see how well remakes and rehashes are doing on the game market these days? It's a cash cow and I suckle on that teet allll day long.

I love you Dragon Quest and Baldur's Gate

I've never posted about silent IIRC

"Bull headed know-it-alls that won't ever accept they are wrong."

Has nothing to do with Silent tower. Also, I thought Sarien was TheForsaken and he isn't. He might not belong on the list.

In fact, I probably shouldn't be making lists like that, but it sure was fun.

>Regardless, some players (I am sure) DO enjoy ST, and no, they
>aren't likely to be in a cheat ring. This just simply boils
>down to variance in desires within a population. I do enjoy
>ST, but then I don't really play CF competitively. Rather than
>seeing the area as a mechanical advantage giving super-area, I
>view it as a puzzle to explore and figure out.
>
>Judging from the rhetoric here though, I guess I am in the
>minority.

I really like it. The problem is that people who play this game mainly for exploration don't have access to Silent.

>Edit: But we should make one thing clear here probably (not
>specifically for you Sam): If ST does get pulled, this is what
>the general tone of this conversation and many others like it
>were leading toward, it isn't on the staff that the area went
>out of rotation. The staff are merely responding to the
>(extremely impassioned/heated) feedback they were given, thus
>the players who have made this an enormous issue need to take
>the lion's share of the responsibility for the change.
>
>(I say this because I just know that if the area goes out of
>rotation, I'll look over at the other forums and see threads
>and threads about how crappy we are etc. So pre-emptively it
>bears stating on record now. People need to be clear about
>what they want before they go on a personal crusade.)

I think the overwhelming majority of players wants Silent to stay. Most of the critique comes from it being gated and only a select few players have access to it.

You turn in your own brother?

My brother did what he did regardless of what I was able/going to do (and, although I disagreed with his reason for doing it, I didn't necessarily disagree with the idea of knowledge dumping).

I wanted to give Zulg and Nep a heads' up. I love this game, I want it to succeed. That might get lost sometimes when I am snarky or argumentative, but it's still the truth.

PS This should let you know I hate cheaters more than you :)

Edited to add: Oddly enough, never had Silent info shared with me. I've had conversations about Silent (hence why I know about the fountains et al) but never once been inside or had anyone send me a log/info.

I didn't even look at the info my bro posted!

FWIW My favorite area is Eastern Road. No lie. It's got everything you could want. High traffic. Lots of through-fares (access to many different areas). Random mobs that MIGHT attack you depending. A couple secrets that offer no mechanical advantages (I wonder if I'm the only person who constantly looks at the lion corpse on the road or uses the shortcut into the Grove...though I hardly ever use the shortcut with a non-ranger).

>My brother did what he did regardless of what I was
>able/going to do (and, although I disagreed with his reason
>for doing it, I didn't necessarily disagree with the idea of
>knowledge dumping).

Siding with a game over your own flesh and blood. Tsk tsk Sam.


>I wanted to give Zulg and Nep a heads' up. I love this game,
>I want it to succeed. That might get lost sometimes when I am
>snarky or argumentative, but it's still the truth.

It's never been lost. It is quite apparent by your consistent return after numerous "I'm leaving" posts.

>PS This should let you know I hate cheaters more than you :)

Impossible.

Me and him never used to tell each other our characters (well...that's not true...he used to say he "quit" and I would tell him my char).

He's ganged me with Jerry.

He's been a lowbie I decked out (without knowing it was my bro) and then he deleted because he couldn't kill a RBW without ABS (thanks asshole for wasting my time).

PS I always take blood over the game, except for the game itself. IE If you (Matrik) piss me off in game, we might never talk again (I mean, I probably would still talk to you, but you get the point). Whereas my bro (and Kanye, and Quas, and many others) has pissed me multiple times and I always forgive him because he is my brother. Or, to put it another way, if they had Jindicho'd him (hahahaha) I would have quit in protest.

As it was, he was a ####. I told him he was being a ####. I told the IMMs he was going to be ####. He was a ####. Silent got closed. And c'est fini.

Any ####ty thread can be turned into a thread about how much someone loves their family/friends.

Damn. Finally beaten.

My child... surely you've seen?

>I just harken back to a post made by Zulg (I think Nep or Ray
>chimed in too) where he talked about how area explores were
>going to move towards areas like the Dragon Lairs (which are
>####ing awesome and exactly how I picture an area explore)
>because the time when Hell and Silent fit into CF had ended
>(ie, Silent and Hell are kinda like the Shadow cabal...it's
>awesome when the secrecy can be kept but guess what...in
>today's world it can't).

Yep. It's absolutely a relic of another time and I don't really disagree with any of that.

If I started writing it today (also about half my life later), I would produce a really different area, no question of that.

I get it now.

I have been to ST on multiple occasions. That is before I had communicated with Baer, which began in earnest with my heroimm application.

Furthermore I have had more than 2k Imm Xp on several characters which heroed*, even when negating role Xp. Also before I had ever communicated with Baer.

Thus your statement has been proven wrong by contradiction. Sorry chief, but thems the breaks: your statement is neither factual, nor accurate.

Edit: If the persistence remains within certain individuals to continue to mope and blame others for in-game woes, rather than at least shifting (part of) the blame to their own actions, they will not improve and remain in a position of arrested development.

It's entirely within your rights to adhere to this opinion, of course. And increasing time restraints as people continue to age, is an issue that I have tremendous sympathy for, but your statement is just incorrect. On that position I can empathize with folks who simply cannot (for whatever RL reason) become hugely invested in their characters.

*For what it's worth, I am a terrible CFer. I have minimal PK skill, I tend to be a meatshield, so don't take this as me speaking with an air of superiority.

There are 25+ characters on the MUD with enough Imm XP to enter Silent Tower. I'm going to use the top 25 as my sample.

7 of the 25 are Fortress. That's 28%. Fortress accounts for 21% of of caballed characters. Fine, small bias toward Fortress right now, but...

Let's look at those 7 characters:

#1 is not a Baer follower and has more Imm XP than anyone else on the MUD! They only received about 30% of it from Baer.
#2 is not a Baer follower and has ZERO Imm XP from Baer.
#3 is not a Baer follower and has ZERO Imm XP from Baer.
#4 is not a Baer follower and received roughly half of their Imm XP from Baer.
#5 is a Baer follower and received less than 20% of their Imm XP from Baer.
#6 is a Baer follower and received about 50% of their Imm XP from Baer.
#7 is not a Baer follower and received 10% of their Imm XP from Baer.

I'm not going to bother checking the other non-Fortress 18 characters but I think it's safe to assume they didn't make this list because of Baer.

Interpret that how you will.

Sidenote would be that (I assume) some of those 25+ characters are still working under the old RoleXP as IMMXP to meet the requirement.

FWIW we may not see eye to eye on everything but I have lumped you in with the Daevryn/Twist/Sacer/(Immortal formally known as Zulg) group of Immortals who are the life blood of this game.

Good. Neutral. Evil. All of them.
I'm not a wildly good rper nor pker. But I do play the game and make a few role updates here and there. I will interact with anyone in the same area as me, and that'll do it. Try it out sometime. Don't go ooc, don't be a #### to other players, or imms. Just do your thing and try to make the whole experience better for everyone. I suspect you'll have great luck.

If you play a decent, long-lived character you'll gather enough XP just from playing the game...

Participate in a global quest or two.
Sit at the Inn during one of their performances.

Basically, do something that contributes to the game itself instead of just "doing your own thing", and you'll get the xp

Example: Outlander Ranger. Sit in the Inn? No - doesn't jive with hating civilization RP. Global quest? Sure, if you happen to be online at the time.

Whole point of outlander ranger is for people to not know you are around. If a bunch of people are communicating with you left and right - you are doing it wrong.

This can be applied to most stealth archetypes.

Edit to add: RP'ing the stand offish evil murderous stealth archetype is completely valid RP. It just happens to not be the 'type' of RP that gets rewarded in the CF world.

This is one of the big issues I have with the concept of IMMxp. People can be RP'ing spot on, but unless its the 'type' of RP that is appreciated by various staff - that person is likely to get a whole lot of nothing. Nyst is a great example - stellar character...not even on the radar until 250+ hrs.

I will echo that I think IMMxp is net positive for the game. However, I think its no coincidence that per Umiron's stats fortress players lead the charge. that is the 'type' of RP that seems most appreciated.

Why would an outlander ranger go to the ST either, though? Doesn't jive just the same as sitting in the Inn.

I also want to say - from my *current* character. Sub-35 lvl. No role... Cabaled... 60 hours or so... I've received 1200 IMM xp without approaching a single IMM (outside of a global quest).

They're really trying to get more involved, I think. I'm not complaining one bit.

>Sure - one area with some of the most 'powerful' equipment in
>it. Some of the items in there can STRONGLY sway PK fights.
>
>
>THIS is the reason why so many people have a problem with the
>IMMxp requirement for ST.
>
>It isn't about no acccess to 'one area'
>
>it's about the IMMpets WITH access having gear that
>makes/breaks fights.

If by "IMMpets" you mean anyone who is accomplished in certain aspects of the game, then fine, that's by design as I understand it.

If you are implying (as so many do) that "IMMpets" is some kind of Good Ol' Boys Club that requires OOC relationships and a secret handshake then you're wrong and there is a lot of evidence (both anecdotal and factual) that suggests you are wrong and furthermore, I'm simply not going to take you seriously anymore.

>You truly expect me to believe that you don't understand how
>people could see the IMM's controlling who has access and who
>doesn't to an area containing some of "the best" gear in the
>game ripe for favoritism/abuse?

See above, I guess. Sure, we "control" access in the sense that we're the ones (all ~15 of us?) that hand out the XP, but certainly everyone who is concerned about pillaging ST for its shinies is veteran enough to be on equal footing with regards to their ability (maybe not desire or motivation) to meet these requirements.

>Let me follow up by asking - If everything I said in the prior
>paragraph is false, then why is this necessary? Why do IMM's
>need to control who gets to 'go' to ST and who doesn't.

Daev has answered this question before, probably more than once. Personally and individually, his rationale makes sense to me, not that my opinion has any bearing on the subject.

>at the end of the day, a spade is a spade sir. And this ####
>is a spade.

Okay.

>The rest of your points are fine, but ST is total ####.

You're entitled to that opinion.

"If you are implying (as so many do) that "IMMpets" is some kind of Good Ol' Boys Club that requires OOC relationships and a secret handshake then you're wrong and there is a lot of evidence (both anecdotal and factual) that suggests you are wrong and furthermore, I'm simply not going to take you seriously anymore.
"

I am not saying that the 'club' is REQUIRED to meet ST requirements, I should have chosen my wording better. But it is a damn-good leg up

I had a long standing OOC friendship with a current member of the staff. I don't intend to go into specifics, but I can tell you that I can prove that as a result I was not only privy to info I shouldn't have had as a player. I have no intention of exposing the actual chat logs (but yes, I do have them). And this OOC 'circle' does VERY MUCH exist.

I wouldn't be so naive as to suggest that cheating and the kind of relationships you admit to having don't occur. Many of the people who join the staff have OOC friendships and perhaps despite their better intentions, sometimes those friendships get the better of them. Unfortunately, this kind of thing is very easy for people to conceal and very difficult for us to become aware of. At the end of the day we're faced with the choice of taking that risk and relying on our judgement or simply not having anyone around to contribute to the game. I hope the decision is obvious.

The fact that you are part of the problem aside, you seem to agree that while the way you cheat might give you an unfair advantage it's not inherently necessary. Furthermore, I think we've adequately accounted for the fact that this kind of thing happens on a very small scale in the way we've approached game design (e.g., how Imm XP works, transparency in PBFs, limiting access to information amongst immortals, etc.).

As long as players like you take the approach you do, the best we can do is trust our judgement and our staff and deal with bad behavior if and when we become aware of it.

I'm done with you.

"The fact that you are part of the problem aside"

What problem am I a part of? I'm part of the problem because I disagree with the direction that the game is being taken in, and I'm not afraid to put my opinion out there?

"cheating and the kind of relationships you admit to having don't occur"

I admitted to having 'had' an OOC relationship with an admin. Many others have had this same relationship, it isn't anything 'new' or 'unique'. Your prior post basically said "There is no such thing as an OOC club with our admins" which is not true, in fact from my DIRECT interactions and experiences it couldn't be more false.

For the record, I currently do not have an OOC communication with any staff members, besides the occasional empowerment meeting request.

"you seem to agree that while the way you cheat might give you an unfair advantage it's not inherently necessary"

I don't fully understand what you are saying to me. I don't currently cheat, nor do I have a OOC relationship with any IMM currently..I feel like you are labeling me a 'cheater'. Are you saying that having OOC IMM contacts "is not necessary to gain an advantage" in that case, sure..but you're still better off with the OOC hookup.

"As long as players like you take the approach you do, the best we can do is trust our judgement and our staff and deal with bad behavior if and when we become aware of it."

What the hell? My current char is just under 200 hrs in age, I've done nothing wrong and in fact, the only IMM interaction I have had has been positive, I have even made it a point to publicize the positive interactions.

This post was to talk about perceived IMM bias, which is a topic that every time it gets brought up ends with lines like "I'm done with you" from the staff.

It seems like you guys love criticizing others but can't handle it at all when it comes back in your own direction. I would LOVE to see you guys have an actual discussion with us in regards to IMM bias.

"I had a long standing OOC friendship with a current member of the staff. I don't intend to go into specifics, but I can tell you that I can prove that as a result I was not only privy to info I shouldn't have had as a player. I have no intention of exposing the actual chat logs (but yes, I do have them). And this OOC 'circle' does VERY MUCH exist."

This reads slightly different than your newest post:

"For the record, I currently do not have an OOC communication with any staff members, besides the occasional empowerment meeting request."

So now I'm just confused. Either you do or you do not have OOC communication with a current staff member.

that's what the grammar points to

"I _HAD_ a long standing (few years) OOC friendship with a current member of the staff. I don't intend to go into specifics, but I can tell you that I can prove that as a result I was not only privy to info I shouldn't have had as a player. I have no intention of exposing the actual chat logs (but yes, I do have them). And this OOC 'circle' does VERY MUCH exist."

Edited the above to emphasize the fact I used the word 'HAD' instead of 'HAVE' very intentionally.

I could have written it better, in retrospect. The point was "I once was a member of the very 'circle' you deny exists, I am no longer a 'member' and they took away my jacket" - Better?

Look, I don't know how I offended Umiron so much (sorry). But really, I think the 'cool kid clique' in CF is a very real thing, or at least it has been in the past. Its also something that at some point we as players/staff really should talk about without getting all uppity. Playing the "It doesn't exist card" doesn't cut it. Because enough of us are "ex inner circle" members. Other people have eluded to this having happened in the past, I chose to be more direct. I am sure JMC can chime in on this topic as well.

He said "had." That's past tense of have. Then he said "currently do have have" stating he no longer has what he had. If that's all it takes to confuse you...

He is asking questions that many players would like explained, and he is answered with "I'm done with you."

Is the the frustration players have on this topic really that hard to understand?

Characters who have a religion that follow an active god have an unfair advantage over characters who are less likely to recieve imm exp. I don't like how a lot of players will scream about how some petty thing is unfair at the drop of a hat. This is not one of those petty things.

Did you see what Cenatar posted just below. Funny how nobody has responded to him, right? Because he makes a good point about something the Imms won't ever talk about. You can say Cabdru didn't "technically" cheat all you want, and you'll be right. But "at the end of the day" as you imms love to say so much, we the players had to deal with that. It wasn't fun. A lot of good players left because of it. Was anything said to the players along the lines of a sorry?

It's not just the fact that we're told it's fine the way it is, it's that you act as if we have no reason to be complaining. It goes both ways.

I think that the whole argument that following a god automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly valid in all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher level of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god. Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault of the players is hard to say.

Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I don't think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for complaints. What I can say though is that in most instances we (the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our responses to you (the players) and we are often met with hate for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it works far better than most people give us credit for.

Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me (or the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a dialogue with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries from our players that they want to be treated fair, I think that its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also treated fairly.

>What I can say though is that in most instances we (the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our responses to you (the players) and we are often met with hate for it<

This happens to players too big fella. It's why the only posts I made on the "forum-that-shall-never-be-named-or-glorified" were straight info dumps or calling people out for being tools.

Usually, the most vocal people are also the most passionate. Passion does not equal reason :).

I don't hate any of the IMM staff (I actually like Valg in small doses!) but at the same time, I get sad (frustrated?) when you guys back yourselves into a corner in certain situations (like re: edge points...no sympathy for any of the hate you guys are getting).

Of course, in my "CF solution" I would be able to (hopefully) fix that, but it's something that won't ever happen so why bother.

tl/dr

"I think that the whole argument that following a god automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly valid in all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher level of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god. Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault of the players is hard to say."

It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point. The point is we're trying to help and we're met with "bu-bye."

"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I don't think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for complaints. What I can say though is that in most instances we (the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our responses to you (the players) and we are often met with hate for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it works far better than most people give us credit for."

Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the players are out of line for complaining. It's what is not said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's the attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone on the immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square one. If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come waving a white flag with their tail between their legs and had better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise they're likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always, but very likely.

"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me (or the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a dialogue with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries from our players that they want to be treated fair, I think that its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also treated fairly."

If anything, my response was returning fire to your potshot at Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of sarcasm and nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil dialogue. It goes both ways.

>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly valid in
>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because
>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher level
>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault of
>the players is hard to say."
>
>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point. The
>point is we're trying to help and we're met with "bu-bye."

You were met with honest answers and well said explanations. At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must say "ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it doesn't mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't need any more chiefs either, so deal with it.


>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I don't
>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>complaints. What I can say though is that in most instances we
>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with hate
>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it works
>far better than most people give us credit for."
>
>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is not
>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's the
>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone on the
>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square one.
>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs and had
>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise they're
>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always, but
>very likely.

There are plenty of examples on these very boards and even THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue with any of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If you feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining things or you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges because some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.

>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me (or
>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a dialogue
>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries from
>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think that
>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also
>treated fairly."
>
>If anything, my response was returning fire to your potshot at
>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of sarcasm and
>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil dialogue.
>It goes both ways.

It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not however. I too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did I read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god forbid, holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a text based game would understand how and when this sort of thing happens.

>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly valid
>in
>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because
>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher level
>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault of
>>the players is hard to say."
>>
>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point.
>The
>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with "bu-bye."
>
>You were met with honest answers and well said explanations.
>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must say
>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it doesn't
>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't need any
>more chiefs either, so deal with it.

Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The same "no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.

>
>
>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I don't
>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most instances
>we
>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with
>hate
>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it
>works
>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>
>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is not
>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's the
>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone on
>the
>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square one.
>
>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs and
>had
>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise they're
>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always, but
>>very likely.
>
>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and even
>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with
>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue with any
>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If you
>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining things or
>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges because
>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.

Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.

>
>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me
>(or
>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>dialogue
>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries
>from
>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think that
>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also
>>treated fairly."
>>
>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your potshot
>at
>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of sarcasm
>and
>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil dialogue.
>>It goes both ways.
>
>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not however. I
>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did I
>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god forbid,
>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a text
>based game would understand how and when this sort of thing
>happens.
>

Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he had a tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.

>>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly valid
>>in
>>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because
>>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher
>level
>>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault of
>>>the players is hard to say."
>>>
>>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point.
>>The
>>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with "bu-bye."
>>
>>You were met with honest answers and well said explanations.
>>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must say
>>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it doesn't
>>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't need
>any
>>more chiefs either, so deal with it.
>
>Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The same
>"no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.

What form of "no" would convince you (or Sarien) that you're wrong? Or are you saying that you refuse to accept you might be wrong? That seems like a pretty poor attitude to start from.

>
>>
>>
>>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I
>don't
>>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most instances
>>we
>>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with
>>hate
>>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it
>>works
>>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>>
>>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is not
>>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's
>the
>>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone on
>>the
>>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square
>one.
>>
>>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs and
>>had
>>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise they're
>>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always, but
>>>very likely.
>>
>>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and even
>>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with
>>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue with
>any
>>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If
>you
>>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining things
>or
>>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges
>because
>>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.
>
>Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.

You can be just like me if you want. Nothing stopping you. Well, there is that pesky delusion that everyone is out to get you. Medication might help. I'm not doing anything special or hard here.


>>
>>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me
>>(or
>>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>>dialogue
>>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries
>>from
>>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think that
>>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also
>>>treated fairly."
>>>
>>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your potshot
>>at
>>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of sarcasm
>>and
>>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil dialogue.
>
>>>It goes both ways.
>>
>>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not however. I
>>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did I
>>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god forbid,
>>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a text
>>based game would understand how and when this sort of thing
>>happens.
>>
>
>Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he had a
>tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A
>sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.

Whether or not he had a tone of anger was very relevant. He can't have a tone of anger and not expect a response bearing a tone of anger. Paid or volunteer, no one has to put up with some nancy's ####.

Furthermore, angry responses don't help anymore than sarcastic ones.

#rekt

PS: Thanks Rhlydarn. I use this all the time now "What's up dude? Pound sign WRECKED bro"

>>>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly
>valid
>>>in
>>>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially because
>>>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher
>>level
>>>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault
>of
>>>>the players is hard to say."
>>>>
>>>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point.
>>>The
>>>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with "bu-bye."
>>>
>>>You were met with honest answers and well said
>explanations.
>>>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must
>say
>>>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it
>doesn't
>>>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't need
>>any
>>>more chiefs either, so deal with it.
>>
>>Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The same
>>"no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.
>
>What form of "no" would convince you (or Sarien) that you're
>wrong? Or are you saying that you refuse to accept you might
>be wrong? That seems like a pretty poor attitude to start
>from.

I did not know this was a matter of right and wrong. I thought we're all trying to figure out a way to better the system the the imms love to say "isn't perfect." Saying "no" over and over without reason seems like the poor attitude.

>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I
>>don't
>>>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most
>instances
>>>we
>>>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>>>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with
>>>hate
>>>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it
>>>works
>>>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>>>
>>>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>>>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is not
>>>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's
>>the
>>>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone on
>>>the
>>>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square
>>one.
>>>
>>>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>>>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs and
>>>had
>>>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise
>they're
>>>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always, but
>>>>very likely.
>>>
>>>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and even
>>>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with
>>>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue with
>>any
>>>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If
>>you
>>>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining things
>>or
>>>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>>>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges
>>because
>>>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.
>>
>>Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.
>
>You can be just like me if you want. Nothing stopping you.
>Well, there is that pesky delusion that everyone is out to get
>you. Medication might help. I'm not doing anything special or
>hard here.

You're logic is the same as "I've never seen racism in America, so it must not exist." I don't want to be you. I thought you said sarcasm isn't the way to go, yet you continue to spread it on thick.

>
>
>>>
>>>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>>>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at me
>>>(or
>>>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>>>dialogue
>>>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries
>>>from
>>>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think
>that
>>>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are also
>>>>treated fairly."
>>>>
>>>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your
>potshot
>>>at
>>>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of sarcasm
>>>and
>>>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil
>dialogue.
>>
>>>>It goes both ways.
>>>
>>>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not however.
>I
>>>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did I
>>>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>>>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>>>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god
>forbid,
>>>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>>>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a
>text
>>>based game would understand how and when this sort of thing
>>>happens.
>>>
>>
>>Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he had
>a
>>tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A
>>sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.
>
>Whether or not he had a tone of anger was very relevant. He
>can't have a tone of anger and not expect a response bearing a
>tone of anger. Paid or volunteer, no one has to put up with
>some nancy's ####.
>
>Furthermore, angry responses don't help anymore than sarcastic
>ones.
>
>#rekt
>
>PS: Thanks Rhlydarn. I use this all the time now "What's up
>dude? Pound sign WRECKED bro"
>

Tone or not he makes a good point, and keeps getting swept under the rug. Who's the Nancey? The one who speaks up when something is wrong, or the one telling the loud guy to keep his head down and shut?

>>>>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>>>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly
>>valid
>>>>in
>>>>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially
>because
>>>>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher
>>>level
>>>>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>>>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault
>>of
>>>>>the players is hard to say."
>>>>>
>>>>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point.
>>>>The
>>>>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with
>"bu-bye."
>>>>
>>>>You were met with honest answers and well said
>>explanations.
>>>>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must
>>say
>>>>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it
>>doesn't
>>>>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't need
>>>any
>>>>more chiefs either, so deal with it.
>>>
>>>Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The same
>>>"no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.
>>
>>What form of "no" would convince you (or Sarien) that you're
>>wrong? Or are you saying that you refuse to accept you might
>>be wrong? That seems like a pretty poor attitude to start
>>from.
>
>I did not know this was a matter of right and wrong. I
>thought we're all trying to figure out a way to better the
>system the the imms love to say "isn't perfect." Saying "no"
>over and over without reason seems like the poor attitude.

Reasons were given. They weren't liked by the opposition. What more can you do? Sometimes when two people talk about something, they can't reach a consensus.

Israel vs. Palestine. They STILL can't figure that #### out. With full blown, real lives at stake.


>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I
>>>don't
>>>>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>>>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most
>>instances
>>>>we
>>>>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>>>>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with
>>>>hate
>>>>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it
>>>>works
>>>>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>>>>
>>>>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>>>>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is
>not
>>>>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's
>>>the
>>>>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone
>on
>>>>the
>>>>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square
>>>one.
>>>>
>>>>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>>>>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs
>and
>>>>had
>>>>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise
>>they're
>>>>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always,
>but
>>>>>very likely.
>>>>
>>>>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and even
>>>>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with
>>>>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue with
>>>any
>>>>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If
>>>you
>>>>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining things
>>>or
>>>>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>>>>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges
>>>because
>>>>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.
>>>
>>>Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.
>>
>>You can be just like me if you want. Nothing stopping you.
>>Well, there is that pesky delusion that everyone is out to
>get
>>you. Medication might help. I'm not doing anything special
>or
>>hard here.
>
>You're logic is the same as "I've never seen racism in
>America, so it must not exist." I don't want to be you. I
>thought you said sarcasm isn't the way to go, yet you continue
>to spread it on thick.

Then much the way you misread Umiron, you misread me. I'm not being sarcastic either. You really can let it go. You really CAN be wrong on something. My logic here is that I insult these people all the time. I'm just smart enough to know that they PROBABLY don't care enough about my one online persona to HATE me SO badly that they will track my IP down everywhere I go and #### on me. They have as much reason to do it to me as they do to you. Why don't they? Because it's your own paranoid nonsense brother. Just let it go.

It's not sarcasm when I say: Only I am always right.

>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>>>>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at
>me
>>>>(or
>>>>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>>>>dialogue
>>>>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries
>>>>from
>>>>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think
>>that
>>>>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are
>also
>>>>>treated fairly."
>>>>>
>>>>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your
>>potshot
>>>>at
>>>>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of
>sarcasm
>>>>and
>>>>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil
>>dialogue.
>>>
>>>>>It goes both ways.
>>>>
>>>>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not however.
>>I
>>>>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did I
>>>>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>>>>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>>>>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god
>>forbid,
>>>>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>>>>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a
>>text
>>>>based game would understand how and when this sort of
>thing
>>>>happens.
>>>>
>>>
>>>Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he had
>>a
>>>tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A
>>>sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.
>>
>>Whether or not he had a tone of anger was very relevant. He
>>can't have a tone of anger and not expect a response bearing
>a
>>tone of anger. Paid or volunteer, no one has to put up with
>>some nancy's ####.
>>
>>Furthermore, angry responses don't help anymore than
>sarcastic
>>ones.
>>
>>#rekt
>>
>>PS: Thanks Rhlydarn. I use this all the time now "What's up
>>dude? Pound sign WRECKED bro"
>>
>
>Tone or not he makes a good point, and keeps getting swept
>under the rug. Who's the Nancey? The one who speaks up when
>something is wrong, or the one telling the loud guy to keep
>his head down and shut?

Eh, look on the other thread bubba. I'm quite vocal about my feedback. Take a gander at my 10k posts on QHCF with TONS of examples of me "Fightin' the Powa' brutha." I'm almost never nice about it either. Guess what? I still understand that throwing a tantrum when I'm told "no" doesn't help.

Let's not forget the guy flat out admits to cheating (which you yourself admit that it takes 10+ years to outlive your cheating past right?). Why do you expect admin to bother with an admitted cheater that by your own definition shouldn't be forgiven?

Did he say sorry and I didn't notice?

>>>>>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>>>>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly
>>>valid
>>>>>in
>>>>>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially
>>because
>>>>>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher
>>>>level
>>>>>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>>>>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a fault
>>>of
>>>>>>the players is hard to say."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the point.
>
>>>>>The
>>>>>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with
>>"bu-bye."
>>>>>
>>>>>You were met with honest answers and well said
>>>explanations.
>>>>>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must
>>>say
>>>>>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it
>>>doesn't
>>>>>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't
>need
>>>>any
>>>>>more chiefs either, so deal with it.
>>>>
>>>>Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The same
>>>>"no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.
>>>
>>>What form of "no" would convince you (or Sarien) that
>you're
>>>wrong? Or are you saying that you refuse to accept you
>might
>>>be wrong? That seems like a pretty poor attitude to start
>>>from.
>>
>>I did not know this was a matter of right and wrong. I
>>thought we're all trying to figure out a way to better the
>>system the the imms love to say "isn't perfect." Saying
>"no"
>>over and over without reason seems like the poor attitude.
>
>Reasons were given. They weren't liked by the opposition. What
>more can you do? Sometimes when two people talk about
>something, they can't reach a consensus.
>
>Israel vs. Palestine. They STILL can't figure that #### out.
>With full blown, real lives at stake.
>
>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I
>>>>don't
>>>>>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>>>>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most
>>>instances
>>>>>we
>>>>>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in our
>>>>>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met with
>>>>>hate
>>>>>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that it
>>>>>works
>>>>>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though the
>>>>>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is
>>not
>>>>>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and it's
>>>>the
>>>>>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone
>>on
>>>>>the
>>>>>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from square
>>>>one.
>>>>>
>>>>>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better come
>>>>>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs
>>and
>>>>>had
>>>>>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise
>>>they're
>>>>>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always,
>>but
>>>>>>very likely.
>>>>>
>>>>>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and
>even
>>>>>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic with
>>>>>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue
>with
>>>>any
>>>>>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me. If
>>>>you
>>>>>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining
>things
>>>>or
>>>>>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>>>>>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges
>>>>because
>>>>>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.
>>>>
>>>>Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.
>>>
>>>You can be just like me if you want. Nothing stopping you.
>>>Well, there is that pesky delusion that everyone is out to
>>get
>>>you. Medication might help. I'm not doing anything special
>>or
>>>hard here.
>>
>>You're logic is the same as "I've never seen racism in
>>America, so it must not exist." I don't want to be you. I
>>thought you said sarcasm isn't the way to go, yet you
>continue
>>to spread it on thick.
>
>Then much the way you misread Umiron, you misread me. I'm not
>being sarcastic either. You really can let it go. You really
>CAN be wrong on something. My logic here is that I insult
>these people all the time. I'm just smart enough to know that
>they PROBABLY don't care enough about my one online persona to
>HATE me SO badly that they will track my IP down everywhere I
>go and #### on me. They have as much reason to do it to me as
>they do to you. Why don't they? Because it's your own paranoid
>nonsense brother. Just let it go.
>
>It's not sarcasm when I say: Only I am always right.
>
>>>
>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does it
>>>>>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at
>>me
>>>>>(or
>>>>>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>>>>>dialogue
>>>>>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have cries
>>>>>from
>>>>>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think
>>>that
>>>>>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are
>>also
>>>>>>treated fairly."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your
>>>potshot
>>>>>at
>>>>>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of
>>sarcasm
>>>>>and
>>>>>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil
>>>dialogue.
>>>>
>>>>>>It goes both ways.
>>>>>
>>>>>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not
>however.
>>>I
>>>>>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did
>I
>>>>>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>>>>>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>>>>>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god
>>>forbid,
>>>>>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>>>>>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a
>>>text
>>>>>based game would understand how and when this sort of
>>thing
>>>>>happens.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he
>had
>>>a
>>>>tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A
>>>>sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.
>>>
>>>Whether or not he had a tone of anger was very relevant. He
>>>can't have a tone of anger and not expect a response
>bearing
>>a
>>>tone of anger. Paid or volunteer, no one has to put up with
>>>some nancy's ####.
>>>
>>>Furthermore, angry responses don't help anymore than
>>sarcastic
>>>ones.
>>>
>>>#rekt
>>>
>>>PS: Thanks Rhlydarn. I use this all the time now "What's up
>>>dude? Pound sign WRECKED bro"
>>>
>>
>>Tone or not he makes a good point, and keeps getting swept
>>under the rug. Who's the Nancey? The one who speaks up
>when
>>something is wrong, or the one telling the loud guy to keep
>>his head down and shut?
>
>Eh, look on the other thread bubba. I'm quite vocal about my
>feedback. Take a gander at my 10k posts on QHCF with TONS of
>examples of me "Fightin' the Powa' brutha." I'm almost never
>nice about it either. Guess what? I still understand that
>throwing a tantrum when I'm told "no" doesn't help.
>
>Let's not forget the guy flat out admits to cheating (which
>you yourself admit that it takes 10+ years to outlive your
>cheating past right?). Why do you expect admin to bother with
>an admitted cheater that by your own definition shouldn't be
>forgiven?
>
>Did he say sorry and I didn't notice?
>

Reasons weren't given, it was brushed off like usual. 10k posts of you playing with your pud means nothing to me. Even if I was paranoid it wouldn't mean everyone wasn't after me.

Sarien and "Current Leader" in this thread have it right. You try to shush anyone who rocks the boat and you lumping them in with the worst vitriol spewers. It's almost as if you're paranoid of the paranoid.

>>>>>>>"I think that the whole argument that following a god
>>>>>>>automatically gets you piles of imm xp is not exactly
>>>>valid
>>>>>>in
>>>>>>>all cases. Yes, in a lot of cases it is. Partially
>>>because
>>>>>>>most characters who follow a god tend to have a higher
>>>>>level
>>>>>>>of RP than a lot of characters who do not follow a god.
>>>>>>>Whether that is a fault of ours (as the imms) or a
>fault
>>>>of
>>>>>>>the players is hard to say."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>It doesn't matter who is to blame, that's not the
>point.
>>
>>>>>>The
>>>>>>>point is we're trying to help and we're met with
>>>"bu-bye."
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You were met with honest answers and well said
>>>>explanations.
>>>>>>At some point "nuh uh, you" "nuh uh, you" one party must
>>>>say
>>>>>>"ok, im done." If you don't like the expalantion, it
>>>>doesn't
>>>>>>mean the other reasoning is wrong. We certainly don't
>>need
>>>>>any
>>>>>>more chiefs either, so deal with it.
>>>>>
>>>>>Honest answers and well said explanations? Where? The
>same
>>>>>"no" repeated in slightly different words doesn't cut it.
>>>>
>>>>What form of "no" would convince you (or Sarien) that
>>you're
>>>>wrong? Or are you saying that you refuse to accept you
>>might
>>>>be wrong? That seems like a pretty poor attitude to start
>>>>from.
>>>
>>>I did not know this was a matter of right and wrong. I
>>>thought we're all trying to figure out a way to better the
>>>system the the imms love to say "isn't perfect." Saying
>>"no"
>>>over and over without reason seems like the poor attitude.
>>
>>Reasons were given. They weren't liked by the opposition.
>What
>>more can you do? Sometimes when two people talk about
>>something, they can't reach a consensus.
>>
>>Israel vs. Palestine. They STILL can't figure that #### out.
>>With full blown, real lives at stake.
>>
>>
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Maybe its cause I'm still fairly new as an imm, but I
>>>>>don't
>>>>>>>think anyone has ever said that there is no reason for
>>>>>>>complaints. What I can say though is that in most
>>>>instances
>>>>>>we
>>>>>>>(the staff) take a very calm and collected stance in
>our
>>>>>>>responses to you (the players) and we are often met
>with
>>>>>>hate
>>>>>>>for it. Is our system perfect? Nope, but I think that
>it
>>>>>>works
>>>>>>>far better than most people give us credit for."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Like I said, nobody says it, but many acts as though
>the
>>>>>>>players are out of line for complaining. It's what is
>>>not
>>>>>>>said, it's the questions that are not answered, and
>it's
>>>>>the
>>>>>>>attitude we meet. Not everyone who argues with someone
>>>on
>>>>>>the
>>>>>>>immstaff hates them, but we often feel hated from
>square
>>>>>one.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If someone argues with the immstaff they had better
>come
>>>>>>>waving a white flag with their tail between their legs
>>>and
>>>>>>had
>>>>>>>better be ready to get their nose brown. Otherwise
>>>>they're
>>>>>>>likely to be dismissed or worse punished. Not always,
>>>but
>>>>>>>very likely.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>There are plenty of examples on these very boards and
>>even
>>>>>>THIS thread of cool-headed people discussing a topic
>with
>>>>>>civility. I argue with immortals the same way I argue
>>with
>>>>>any
>>>>>>of the players. I don't feel like any of them hate me.
>If
>>>>>you
>>>>>>feel like they hate you, I'd guess you're imagining
>>things
>>>>>or
>>>>>>you're a ####ing cheater. I've never been dismissed or
>>>>>>punished. Aside from losing newbie channel privileges
>>>>>because
>>>>>>some immortal is jealous of my cleverness.
>>>>>
>>>>>Good for you. Everyone else, is not you.
>>>>
>>>>You can be just like me if you want. Nothing stopping you.
>>>>Well, there is that pesky delusion that everyone is out to
>>>get
>>>>you. Medication might help. I'm not doing anything special
>>>or
>>>>hard here.
>>>
>>>You're logic is the same as "I've never seen racism in
>>>America, so it must not exist." I don't want to be you. I
>>>thought you said sarcasm isn't the way to go, yet you
>>continue
>>>to spread it on thick.
>>
>>Then much the way you misread Umiron, you misread me. I'm
>not
>>being sarcastic either. You really can let it go. You really
>>CAN be wrong on something. My logic here is that I insult
>>these people all the time. I'm just smart enough to know
>that
>>they PROBABLY don't care enough about my one online persona
>to
>>HATE me SO badly that they will track my IP down everywhere
>I
>>go and #### on me. They have as much reason to do it to me
>as
>>they do to you. Why don't they? Because it's your own
>paranoid
>>nonsense brother. Just let it go.
>>
>>It's not sarcasm when I say: Only I am always right.
>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"Your response to me is a perfect example of it. Does
>it
>>>>>>>actually accomplish anything when you take a potshot at
>>>me
>>>>>>(or
>>>>>>>the rest of the staff) when I am attempting to have a
>>>>>>dialogue
>>>>>>>with people over an issue? When we constantly have
>cries
>>>>>>from
>>>>>>>our players that they want to be treated fair, I think
>>>>that
>>>>>>>its only reasonable to ask that we (as the staff) are
>>>also
>>>>>>>treated fairly."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>If anything, my response was returning fire to your
>>>>potshot
>>>>>>at
>>>>>>>Sarien. It was clear what he said. A response of
>>>sarcasm
>>>>>>and
>>>>>>>nothing more is hardly attempting to have a civil
>>>>dialogue.
>>>>>
>>>>>>>It goes both ways.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>It was quite clear what he said. His tone was not
>>however.
>>>>I
>>>>>>too read his tone as escalating anger, though so too did
>>I
>>>>>>read Umiron's as such. I suspect neither really meant to
>>>>>>insult the other's sensibilities intentionally. I also
>>>>>>understand Umiron may have misread him slightly (god
>>>>forbid,
>>>>>>holy mother of god protect me from someone misreading my
>>>>>>post!) You would THINK that a bunch of nerds who play a
>>>>text
>>>>>>based game would understand how and when this sort of
>>>thing
>>>>>>happens.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>Yes, it was quite clear what he said, whether or not he
>>had
>>>>a
>>>>>tone of anger is irrelevant. There is no misreading. A
>>>>>sarcastic response did not help, it did the opposite.
>>>>
>>>>Whether or not he had a tone of anger was very relevant.
>He
>>>>can't have a tone of anger and not expect a response
>>bearing
>>>a
>>>>tone of anger. Paid or volunteer, no one has to put up
>with
>>>>some nancy's ####.
>>>>
>>>>Furthermore, angry responses don't help anymore than
>>>sarcastic
>>>>ones.
>>>>
>>>>#rekt
>>>>
>>>>PS: Thanks Rhlydarn. I use this all the time now "What's
>up
>>>>dude? Pound sign WRECKED bro"
>>>>
>>>
>>>Tone or not he makes a good point, and keeps getting swept
>>>under the rug. Who's the Nancey? The one who speaks up
>>when
>>>something is wrong, or the one telling the loud guy to keep
>>>his head down and shut?
>>
>>Eh, look on the other thread bubba. I'm quite vocal about my
>>feedback. Take a gander at my 10k posts on QHCF with TONS of
>>examples of me "Fightin' the Powa' brutha." I'm almost never
>>nice about it either. Guess what? I still understand that
>>throwing a tantrum when I'm told "no" doesn't help.
>>
>>Let's not forget the guy flat out admits to cheating (which
>>you yourself admit that it takes 10+ years to outlive your
>>cheating past right?). Why do you expect admin to bother
>with
>>an admitted cheater that by your own definition shouldn't be
>>forgiven?
>>
>>Did he say sorry and I didn't notice?
>>
>
>Reasons weren't given, it was brushed off like usual. 10k
>posts of you playing with your pud means nothing to me. Even
>if I was paranoid it wouldn't mean everyone wasn't after me.
>
>Sarien and "Current Leader" in this thread have it right. You
>try to shush anyone who rocks the boat and you lumping them in
>with the worst vitriol spewers. It's almost as if you're
>paranoid of the paranoid.

Except I have proof posted all over that I'm not after the status quo. That is a common argument for the people who can't come up with an argument though. Especially the cheaters that complain about cheaters. I can feel your drive to post in this discussion flagging.

At what point do you say "Matrik, I'm done with you"?

Won't that make you just like Umiron? Like the guy you're so hard up on proving is a ####bird for deciding not to take place in an endless argument where the two parties simply don't agree?

Or.

You can put your money where your mouth is and we can double that 10k posts right here in this thread.

Can you prove a point better than me? I don't think so.

Did you just play right into my hands like Sam?

I bet you'll deny it. I bet you won't man up and apologize.

You have proof posted? You have proof because you say you have proof, all over? I don't care about your past posts. Nor does this issue. You keep trying to make this about you and me, and I have no clue why. I'm trying to agree with some other people who I think have a good solution to a problem at hand. One was told no with no good reason, and the other one ignored.

Edit: I don't know why but this post won't go where it is intended. It was intended to be replied to Tsunami.

>You have proof posted? You have proof because you say you
>have proof, all over? I don't care about your past posts. Nor
>does this issue.

You keep accusing me of sycophancy. I'm just pointing out that I'm not. Your assumption is incorrect.

>You keep trying to make this about you andme, and I have no clue >why. I'm trying to agree with some other people who I think have a >good solution to a problem at hand. One was told no with no good >reason, and the other one ignored.

I disagree. I think it's a damn fine reason. You'll note once again above that I am not a sycophant (so please don't repeat that argument, again). I just happen to agree with him on this and think it's a good reason. You disagree. We almost certainly will not find a consensus between us. I guess we should keep posting endlessly and never say "Ah well, we gave it the ol' college try. I'm done with you."

Is any of it reason enough to be a turd? Angry? Sarcastic? Goonly?

From a third person standpoint, I'd say probably not. I'd also say you're probably better off listening to my third person than to me directly. But speaking strictly as Matrik: I don't need much of a reason to be any of those. I'm glad you chose to decide the same so far. Please stay around and continue being a scumbag with me.

>Edit: I don't know why but this post won't go where it is
>intended. It was intended to be replied to Tsunami.

I noticed. Kinda wonky. Who knows with this place?

While I do not agree with all of your posts, I am impressed at the calm, insight, and focus of this post.

You really hit the nail on the head here. It is also good to note that your own mood can change how you perceive something written in text. It is very different than having a face to face conversation. But I think all rational parties would rather have a civil conversation than a pointless flamefest.

In the wake of all of this arguing, I've yet to see an actual suggestion to fairly balance the distribution of imm exp from a follower to people not following a particular imm. Now, keep in mind they would have to "earn" it some how. As a player, I'd be totally for having different avenues for imm exp aside from following a particular immortal. This seems to be the root problem that I've seen from all these posts.

Maybe this would be in the form of a structured system that rewards RP in a better way or being more liberal with the amount of exp given when imms see something cool from a character.

I do not know what is the right answer or if the system will work out itself. I suppose an interesting question is, what do people believe imm exp should be awarded for and in what amounts?

I'm glad you don't agree with all of my posts. You probably shouldn't bother reading most of them.

I was being mean to Akresius yesterday because I like to add flavor to my criticism. But these people... It's like a surge of old-hatred vomit comes spewing up at random times. Best to cool the inanities for a while.

I won't say I'm sorry, because I was definitely right on with my feedback. However, I sure hope he can forgive me within the next DECADE.

We (they?) are supposed to forgive him for #### (cheating) he was doing 1-2-3-4-5-6? years ago?

When can you folks forgive Daev/Valg/whoever for their ####?

I love Daev and everything he does for the game. But I'll always hate when he cheats the entire playerbase, and then cut and run without anything as much as an "oops." And ever since anyone who brings it up is met with "get over it already." If it wasn't for him the game might not be around anymore, but does that give the right to cheat? Cabdru wasn't the only one.

I mean...

Dude brah...

You love Daev? Like... really? Do you like this guy? Do you think he is swell and has been a positive contribution to CF in general?

Don't you think you can give him one? Just one from a decade ago? That one time he accidently slapped your wife's ass? Are you going to give up a comrade for some #### like that? Who cares if he said "Oh, sorry bro" or maintained it was an accident/didn't happen when confronted?

I don't like the guy (read: he needs to be whipped into shape by hanging out with me for a couple weeks so he can deal with this cesspool of turd burglars without resorting to extremely rare posts/participation), but jesus I can give him one. If nothing else, he plays the same game I do.

If you think cheating is fine, good for you. It's not what I think.

>If you think cheating is fine, good for you. It's not what I
>think.

Where do you get that? I absolutely hate cheating. In fact, I suspect you are likely a cheater. You use triggers and aliases I can almost guarantee. My standards are WAY to high for you to live up to.

It's just sad that you can say something like "He doesn't play the same game" and "He's a cheater!" when your most recent example is from a decade ago.

Wow. I'm a cheater? You can almost guarantee? I'm sure you have a ton of factual evidence to base that suspicion on. Cabdru was not the last one, by far.

Please share your factual evidence of post-Cabdru cheating.

Put up or shut up my friend.

You're right. I'm wrong to assume you cheat. I can find out with a simple question though...

Do you use aliases or triggers? Yes? Then you're a cheater. No? Welcome to the Matrik-club.

The point was not that you're a cheater, but I'm not going to sit here and fume for 10+ years about your cheating even if you are the WORST of them.

No, there is no point with you, only post count.

I'm not the only one in the audience and you know that.

For shame. Copin' out like that.

Almost like not apologizing for Cabdru.

Maybe in 10 years I'll forgive you.

PS: There is no post count here that I know of. Let me know if you find it though.

If I ran a mud, I wouldn't implement special practice mobs, and then remove them when I'm done.

I know that's not the evidence you need, nor do I care. I must be coping out again. For shame. All hail Matrik, and let the Imms do whatever they please.

>If I ran a mud, I wouldn't implement special practice mobs,
>and then remove them when I'm done.
>
>I know that's not the evidence you need, nor do I care. I
>must be coping out again. For shame. All hail Matrik, and
>let the Imms do whatever they please.

Please tell me this isn't yet another example that happened a decade ago?

If I ran any game that had been around for 20 years, I'd just be hanging on for dear life and hoping the place doesn't burn down.

I know that's not the "no" you need, nor do I care. I must be making sense again. How embarrassing. All hail Matrik, and not let go of something that happened ages ago! So much so that it clouds our judgment on ever petty little #### thing that comes to mind!

Anyone disagreeing with us is most likely sucking momma's tit!

No, this happened a year ago. All hail Matrik's tit.

Mind sharing details for the audience at large? I hadn't heard of this one. I can't be the only one.

That might at least cure some of the supposed sycophancy that you preach about.

Best do it quick, because this thing is mucked up pretty hard. I'm sure thread lock is headed our way.

Was a pleasure doing business with you. I'll respond in the morning if it's still up. If not, post the evidence on QHCF so we can see.

PS: I'm still not sure what that has to do with whether or not Umiron's reason for not changing "the gate" was good. Thought you said that's what this was about...

You just might be the only one.

I didn't preach, I responded to you, so I can understand your confusion.

It probably is.

For you maybe.

The gate was the point. Cabdru was an example of how the players are just supposed to take it in the pants, turn the other cheek, and keep quiet about things that are obviously bad for the game. Like how the "gate" won't be changed because it's there for good reason because they say so because because because and we're not going to change it so there's no point in discussing it, however feel free and we'll continue to disagree with you. But since it happened so long ago, there's no point in bringing it up, and it's probably okay for it to happen again, because we can just wait another 10 years after and it will be okay again, because there are no consequences anymore. All hail Matrik's tit. Or is it all hail Tit matrik? Phuck it, who cares.

We are talking about someone who had to endure psychotics attempting to meddle in his family's personal life.

I think the debt has been paid, above and beyond.

Man, I hope I never do anything as heinous as use my knowledge as a game administrator to excel at my own free game. No tellin' what they'd do if there was a sub fee.

The guy is a decent imm. And I seriously, seriously doubt he cares to do anything like Cabdru again. That was his one silent wrecking ball, he made the area, he had some fun, he accidentally outed himself, people were pissed, there was a big fallout, and its over guys.

People need to stop bitching about Cabdru. Its pathetic, it was 10 years ago, and if you have to hold onto that, you're probably going to be an unhappy guy the rest of the time you CF, just let that #### go and concentrate on how to make the game better for the FUTURE.


Anybody that thinks Daev didn't play Zorszaul as well is crazy, it's no secret who he was. I am not accusing Zorszaul of cheating (like cabdru was claimed to do by using abomination to drain mobs mana, instantly killing them when it ran out due to a bug). He was just a suped up lich with imm knowledge of parts of hell only an imm could have known of back then (other than the people that went on the istendil trip with him) Baalzebub has only been killed 3 times and two of those were his liches, one was my group. I wouldn't call Zorszaul a cheater, or Istendil, or any of his other probably 100 other characters that have had a positive impact on many people over the years. The only questionable one is Cabdru, and I think its time people let that crap go. Not everyone, but almost everyone that has ever played CF, has cheated in some way. Some big, some small, with the rare guy thats never ever even crossed the line once, but ####, everyones cheated to some degree over the last 18 or whatever years we've been rocking it. So don't chuck stones if you know you've been shady before too. I sure know I've been in trouble once or twice.


Yeah, so some imms have played some suped up characters. Did anyone actually interact with Cabdru? His roleplay was immaculate and he was REALLY fun to be around if he wasn't slaughtering you. And Zorszaul? Easily the best roleplayed character the game has ever seen, the mud was MUCH better when he was around weather or not you could kill him, his presence made #### fun. Istendil was just plain awesome, and my favorite character of all time. Did anyone read his series he put out a while ago, the story of Istendil? The writing was pretty sick.

Keep in mind, all this is like, 10+ years ago guys. Different game, different time. None of that crap is going on in todays CF, so why don't we worry about how we are gonna make the game better for today, instead of bitching about what people did 10 years ago like children. And Daev is no slouch, he is one of the best playerkillers ever to walk the game. Istendil was great. His conjie in scion was great. His rager was great. His elf warrior was great. Stop bitching everyone, because I would much rather Daev be running a mortal than not running one. And I seriously doubt he is suping his chars up. He's just a solid player with slightly more mechanic knowledge than we are gonna have. Perks of spending your life running a free game for other people to enjoy, you're gonna know more about it.

Daev is WAY more good for the game than bad. And trust me, me and him do not see eye to eye very often, I'm not even sure the guy likes me. If he could describe me in one word I'm not so sure he wouldn't use jackass as that word. So I have no reason to white knight him other than I think people need to stop crying about stuff from a decade ago.

So, after Dwoggurd's AP (Nabburak), a few AP changes were introduced.

I had played Kruuank starting at the end of Makholvek's reign, so basically my CF beginning was at the tail end of CF's glory days.

But when Cabdru was getting started, people forget Elhe's AP was the big dog on the block. I remember many times people telling me "Man, Greddarh is the nastiest AP ever" and me saying "Wait until you see Cabdru" because when I started hanging with him, he already had like 40 charges at level 37.

And then Kasty's AP gets Emp at 34, and people are going "OMG THIS NEW GUY IS GOING TO BE THE BEST AP EVER"...and I kept saying "Just wait until you see Cabdru".

It's just funny in hindsight. Until he had the Hell/Silent gear, Cabdru was mad under the radar. In fact, really only people who he killed or travelled with him knew how tough he was.

Also, Cabdru's RP was decent. It wasn't mind-blowing. It was certainly better than Elhe's (sorry Elhe) but yeah. On the other hand, ####ing RayBaer's RP with Vandrylon was just about the funniest and awesome RP I've ever seen. Still wish I could find a copy of her note to Scion (best note ever).

Almost everyone I know who played the game stopped playing mainly because of immortal cheating. Not just Cabdru, although that one was the final nail in the coffin. But it doesn't matter.

It doesn't matter if the imms cheat. I'm nothing but a crybaby with no point to make at all. I have no reason to complain and I've been wrong for all my gripe.

#### it, bye.

Sounds an awful lot like "I'm done with you"

All that sycophancy you were talking about.

Just as sad as the psychotics if you ask me.

Short of just not playing the game (which, actually, is where I'm at right now) there isn't anything I could realistically do to make you happy.

Every character I've played in more than a decade is, in one or more ways, dialed way back from what I'm capable of to try to keep it interesting. But you can only handicap yourself so much and still have fun with a partially competitive game.

I'm not playing now, so go nuts. Roll whatever you want. Nobody treating you like a speed bump will be me and you'll have to blame something else for your struggles.

1) I'm truly fearful of what sort of slaughtering I'll receive if Daevryn ever plays a character full-out.

2) Having killed Daevryn like...once...is totally going a few notches higher up on the "I did it!" list.

Random aside: I would totally pay to watch a Daevryn-Marcus-(maybe a few others) grudge-match Battle-Rites style to drool in awe.

...more than some of the better PKers in CF.

Personally, I'd just pay for a "5 to a side" 4 team Deathmatch.

Team One (The IMMs):

Nep
Twist
Thror
Thrak
####...I don't know who all the IMMs are anymore...um, Umiron? He seems like he's got coding down so I assume he was a solid PKer.


Team Two (Russians):

Elhe
Beront
Alex
Shaapa
Dervish


Team Three (Sam's fav's!):

Enbuergo
Jaguab
Shamanman
TPK
Bemused


Team Four (The Great in their own mind team):

Jerry
Funnyone
Chris Royse
Torak (sorry...had to)
Chris Warren


Man, I have no idea how that would turn out. And I didn't even include Marcus or several other badass ####ers!

Matrik the character.

Most killingest good/chaotic human uncaballed warrior on record!

Umi is a very accomplished PKer. Having him, Nep and Twist in the same team would be a little ridiculous. Team 3 does have TPK though so worth throwing a $1 on it :P

Personally I'd like to have had a Nep vs Challen in the Octagon.

...Jaguab grabbed the "championship belt".

And by Championship belt, I mean "Accused of being Nepenthe because he beat so much ass".

He made a gnome polespec be considered OP! GNOME POLESPEC!

And yes, TPK balances out Shamanman probably dying too much (because TPK will obviously be doing a Hammer Dance at one point).

I would include Challen but I never once had a character that interacted or got PK'd by him....whereas I know TPK killed me.

Honestly, Gareth would be right up there...damn, now I wish I had a second team of Favorites with Gareth + Balrahd + Jhyrb + whoever-the-####-else-I-want.

Our team would win on technicalities because we would all have talismans of ultimate evils and hybrid Mel-Kartha/Humansunder mix weapons from top secret corners of the world nobody has seen yet. Yep.


Just kidding. I can't pk my way out of a wet paper bag. Honestly, I really suck at pk.

I admit, I'm slightly disappointed to think you would pick Umi over me for a pk battle royal for team imm =(

Just not IMPRESSED.

And I'm guessing at who I think Umi is. I'm probably wrong though.

The only way I've ever given Nep problems is because he is rational in PK and thinks 'no one is stupid enough to try that' and then lo-and-behold, I ####ing do.

That said, I'm pretty sure Nep has pk'd circles around me far more often than I've gotten lucky against him.

Edited to add: The team you have me on is so vastly superior to me in everyday PK that I find it truly hilarious I'm on their team.

It'd be the 'carry shamanman' team. Unless you think that team needs some crazy added into it.

The rest of those players are relatively conservative. They needed someone to challenge their cojones.

Hey, don't sell yourself short.

Focus on sucking as much as I do, and everyone can be your Daevryn.

Give everyone a lvl 51 of the same build and have all 1v1s to see who comes out on top.

I can see things like not using preps. Are we talking serious flaws or do you not throw in the backhands between rounds to make it interesting?

It depends. Let me very explicitly say that none of these are an always and you can easily find a counter-example for each.

- I almost always am very low prep. You probably will never see me go round up shield or aura on a non-wand character, for example.

- I usually (not always) will avoid the high-end area explores, including the Tower, coming by that gear only by PK if at all. (This is largely futile in terms of public perception -- people have bitched about how much Tower or Hell gear I supposedly have on characters that have never set foot in either at all.)

- I usually choose to play through telnet rather than an actual mud client. (I am starting to get away from this one in my old age, and sometimes it's fun to build some kind of custom bit of client scripting. No, not chase triggers, Pro.)

- I pick flaws sometimes that are genuinely difficult for the character, mechanically.

- About every third character or so is a combination that people are saying is terrible at that time. I heroed d-elf a-p pre-edges and pre-any kind of int or wis advantage for the class.

- Sometimes I pick RP restrictions for a character that substantially limit what I can do relative to the norm.

- A few more that I'll keep to myself because they're odd enough to be obvious tells.

People can think any of that is significant or not; I'm trying to keep it interesting for me, not anyone else.

You need more Jerry-style bravado.

Hahaha.

Mostly joking. Mostly.

I'm curious if you played some of your more prolific characters through Telnet.

I know I started this game decades ago with telnet but with the complexity of some commands and speed of the game there's no way I could play with telnet today. But I'm not a person, like a programmer, with ultra fast typing skills. Maybe if I tried to get used to it I could possibly do it but honestly I still #### up my aliases.

No doubt you're a pk badass. There's no way I'd ever be able to take a rager 140-3. But I have to think that you've played a lot of unclaimed characters that weren't so off the charts.

Do the ones where you mess around, take flaws and telnet generally go unclaimed? While the ones where you give some sort of effort turn into the Aulrathdiens? Have you had characters that just didn't work for you and you got pk stomped a lot?

>I'm curious if you played some of your more prolific
>characters through Telnet.

Most, yes. Cabdru was telnet, for example. Istendil was telnet. (I was a caffeine-saturated college kid at that point and a lot faster than today, too.)

>No doubt you're a pk badass. There's no way I'd ever be able
>to take a rager 140-3. But I have to think that you've played
>a lot of unclaimed characters that weren't so off the charts.

>Do the ones where you mess around, take flaws and telnet
>generally go unclaimed? While the ones where you give some
>sort of effort turn into the Aulrathdiens? Have you had
>characters that just didn't work for you and you got pk
>stomped a lot?

Interestingly enough that character started 0-2, and I thought about giving up at that point. I knew *someone* would make a tough character out of that combo but I wasn't all that sure that I could.

I definitely have characters where the RP doesn't turn out as fun as I think it will, or mechanically something doesn't work out, or for whatever reason I just don't hit my stride and give up. I probably let more characters auto in the 20s and 30s than anyone. I've let a handful go at like 8-3 ratios, not terrible but definitely far from dominant.

Edit: Because it's topical I'd also like to comment that some characters just kind of luck into being at the right place at the right time. Sometimes that's about getting leadership or having just the right support characters on your side that you need to shore up your weaknesses without making people too overwhelmed to come at you. Sometimes it's getting a PK to go your way that maybe shouldn't and being able to loot exactly the piece of gear you really need to build up some steam.

In the case of Aulrathdien, one of the things that really broke his way was that I expected to have to gear a lot of STR/DEX and saves, but what actually happened was that there was an almost total lack of tough malediction characters in his range -- so with rare exception he was able to get away with gearing almost all damroll. The couple times I had to deal with a decent malediction guy and couldn't swap a couple pieces of gear ahead of time to shore it up were fights I was lucky to survive. Normally my experience is that gearing Battle warrior that way is tantamount to suicide -- you can steamroll some people that way, but lots of things just take you apart. In this case the meta of the time allowed it, which I couldn't have anticipated.

Seriously... I couldn't play on basic Telnet ever again! I think I'd go insane lol.

Damn... I should really stop reading the forums. I'm being sucked back in and getting the itch even though I just quit in rage!

Gear for dam and just bloodthirst to cover strength and dex loss?

I tend to agree with your position. Bloodthirst tends to kill me as much if not more than it helps me.

I played a wood-elf and looked to gear with some of the gear you wore with Aulrathdien. It drove me nuts because I couldn't find a bunch of it! Like those rings??? Where the heck are those rings?? Prior to playing the character I located the rings and saw the mob they were on but never managed to find the mob :( I've been playing this game for years (fought Istendil with a rager dwarf named Killian to give perspective) and still feel like I don't know where half the #### in the game is. That's mostly my fault though for having a short attention span when it comes to exploring, and a few other reasons.

>Gear for dam and just bloodthirst to cover strength and dex
>loss?
>
>I tend to agree with your position. Bloodthirst tends to kill
>me as much if not more than it helps me.

Yeah, I'm not great at minimizing the downsides of Bloodthirst. I have seen people who are but that's not me. I'd rather be able to soak it with gear and be able to choose to strategically Thirst or not for other reasons.

>I played a wood-elf and looked to gear with some of the gear
>you wore with Aulrathdien. It drove me nuts because I couldn't
>find a bunch of it! Like those rings??? Where the heck are
>those rings?? Prior to playing the character I located the
>rings and saw the mob they were on but never managed to find
>the mob :( I've been playing this game for years (fought
>Istendil with a rager dwarf named Killian to give perspective)
>and still feel like I don't know where half the #### in the
>game is. That's mostly my fault though for having a short
>attention span when it comes to exploring, and a few other
>reasons.

The funniest thing about that (and this is another one of those things I mentioned above about when you can catch lucky breaks) is that I was given just about all of the wood-elf gear I had. Two different higher level wood-elves randomly gave me each of the wood swords, for example. I don't remember who gave me the rest.

It's been like.....15 years. Any chance in hell we could get a clear yes or no answer to weather or not you played Zorszaul?

Zorszaul was never accused of cheating or anything other than being a genuine badass, with awesome RP and a lot of fun to fight or be around.

I don't think anyone would do anything but applaud you if they found out you played him.

I mean, there really isn't anyone else it could have been. There's like, 8 or whatever names on the inferno hall of fame on the first trip to reach satan. Due to area knowledge and armor Z had, I am 100% sure that he was on that first trip to Satan. Theres only like 8 people it could be, and there is only one person in that group that is badass enough to have done it. :)

Pretty please? We must have closure!

There were a couple badass PK/RP guys in AR or FL. Including one that was at least someone I thought could really be Z.

I mean, weren't there logs of Nepenthe (the IMM character) and Z on at the same time? So if Nep admits he played Z, wouldn't that be evidence of some terrible cheating?

It was a different game back then. I know (knew actually, this was years ago back in like, before Dangerranger was grummy and stuff. Glimo days) imms that would have their imm character wizi in the background for admin purposes, but would still play their mortals. Not saying that this is the case, but I know it has happened before. Pretty sure I saw Scarabaeus and Golmagus online at the same time once upon a time too, nobody really seemed to care.


Dude, were talking about a time so far back that it was only like a year or two before Zorszaul that people were asking for help with their algebra homework on the master Cabal channel.

Different time, Different game. And most of the other badass pkers that might have been able to be Z, like Challen, all fought him. Most were accounted for.

No big deal I guess if we never get an answer. I just always wanted to know.

the IP that Zorszaul used to post on QHCF was not an IP linked to anyone else at that time or within 2 years later. I know the location of that IP and therefore think I know the player but not even Dio could come to any sort of concrete conclusion who it actually was.

And The Arcane (Challen) in all his sleuthing (Hi Sebeok) never cracked that case either.

It could have been a few people, it could have been no one presently well known to the community.

CF Cold Cases. : P

Could we get a Daev's suggestions/tactics/tips/secrets for pk thing going and put it on facebook?.

I would definitely read it. And I believe it would be very interesting for the playerbase and even new players.

Maybe an interview format?, or just outright bullets?

Just saying. After reading how the players recognize Daev's pks and his statements about flaws and not going full forward, I am crazy with curiosity.

Jaeg

and that was brutal man. just brutal. i hadn't felt so helpless against a character since 1998 when i had really got into playing CF and scarab was just dominating for a season.

you knew all the breaking points and went full throttle

but hey, i will say this, i'd rather lose against you (and others) than not play against you (and others), so get your ugly butt rolling a new character.

Prior to that you couldn't get people to play wood-elf warrior on a dare. :)

Granted, some racial edges did come in like half a year before and some people were starting to run with it, but I came up with the role at a point when nobody would touch it with a ten foot pole.

Sorry about that, I was only talking about Cabdru specifically. See how I started the next sentence with "And ever since then." And when I said "Cabdru wasn't the only one" I meant to say Daevryn, meaning I was saying other Imms were doing shady stuff, not just you. I have no gripes with your other characters.

I feel like Cabdru was a huge slap in the face, no matter how long ago it was. And all I really want is for you to admit that it really was a nasty thing for the players to deal with, and that it was taking something too far. I have an internal conflict because the thing I want I won't ever ask you to do, its my own catch-22. If you did at some point admit that "in hindsight maybe Cabdru wasn't a good idea" then I'm a sorry ass for everything I complained about, because that's all the pissed off part of me wants, is just an acknowledgement.

Everyone says I'm in the wrong for how I'm perceiving this, and I understand their point of view, but I really don't understand how I'm 100% completely in the wrong. I wish someone would see it from my point of view but that's not happening.

I'm not trying to further any of this back and forth, I just want to explain myself because I think you got a slightly wrong idea of what I was saying. Please don't respond, and please delete all of my recent posts if it would help.

>I feel like Cabdru was a huge slap in the face, no matter how
>long ago it was. And all I really want is for you to admit
>that it really was a nasty thing for the players to deal with,
>and that it was taking something too far. I have an internal
>conflict because the thing I want I won't ever ask you to do,
>its my own catch-22. If you did at some point admit that "in
>hindsight maybe Cabdru wasn't a good idea" then I'm a sorry
>ass for everything I complained about, because that's all the
>pissed off part of me wants, is just an acknowledgement.

Here I have to draw a line, in that... would I do some things differently if I had to do it over again knowing everything I know now? Sure. But do I think I made pretty reasonable decisions at the time based on what I knew at that time? I still think I did. (And reasonable people can disagree about that.)

A question that I don't have an answer for that makes everyone happy is: what responsibility do game administrators, when they are players, bear for the game balance of items or area features that they were not in any way involved in creating? There are some people who could only have been made happy if I personally made sure everything in the game is as balanced as I think it could be before I ever touch it, but ironically that would require me to gather more information as an imm that right now I try to avoid, which would make other people unhappy.

I don't actually mind talking through this kind of thing when people can be calm and somewhat rational about it.

I'm not sure how many people were pissed about the equipment being unbalanced, because CF is about having powerhouses after all. There has to be that super hero/super villain to keep things interesting.

vs.

The reasonable availability; as in, even now that people know where to get half that gear they couldn't do it with any amount of resources or support, and you supposedly did it solo.

I'm in the second camp, hey, put all the super badass gear out there. But just make sure there are circumstances where people are actually able to get to that gear (if the planets and stars align). But when only someone who has inside knowledge and the ability to use a bug (that is later fixed) to get nearly impossible to acquire equipment solo... well you have to figure someone is no going to like it.

Kind of a segue..

If any admin/immortal wanted to play something badass to steer the direction of an in-game change, I think the entirety of the playerbase would celebrate it. As in, an Imm creates a character (custom race even maybe?), maxes out stats to a ridiculous (but believable level), pumps up skills, sets level, sets custom equipment, custom title to identify the fact that this is a special character. The caveat is that the characters con is set to something like 4 or 5, and it only has a limited amount of time to accomplish it's goals before eating a few deaths. Open the pk range so it is in everyones pk, but roleplay it very strictly that it doesn't seek out active pk (won't ever back down) unless it is at the strict adherence to the goal of the super character. As in, if you want to take down Empire, you will go after Empire leaders... fortress leaders etc...

I don't know, maybe some people wouldn't like it, but I personally think it would be a cool way to directly steer changes and keep everyone involved.

Also, no xp hole from mob deaths because some imm controlled mob wooped ass.

>>Here I have to draw a line, in that... would I do some things differently if I had to do it over again knowing everything I know now? Sure.

Thank you, this is what I am talking about. It's something I think a lot of players want to hear, even if they tell me to shut up because all this happened a long time ago. A simple "oops." That's all. I'm sorry to make such a big fuss, it's just that the principle means a great deal to me. You run my favorite game, but for years I've felt cheated by you, and I don't want to feel that way. It seems like people think I want to hate on you and that I enjoy bringing up Cabdru. It's the complete opposite.

>>But do I think I made pretty reasonable decisions at the time based on what I knew at that time? I still think I did. (And reasonable people can disagree about that.)

Although I've held on to my petty grudge, I also agree with you here.

>>A question that I don't have an answer for that makes everyone happy is: what responsibility do game administrators, when they are players, bear for the game balance of items or area features that they were not in any way involved in creating? There are some people who could only have been made happy if I personally made sure everything in the game is as balanced as I think it could be before I ever touch it, but ironically that would require me to gather more information as an imm that right now I try to avoid, which would make other people unhappy.

Although with my recent comments it may seem like I'm that guy who's always going to be unhappy, I am very much the opposite. I understand the job you guys have, and I'm thankful for everything the imms do.

Thank you, from the bottom of my heart and soul, thank you.

Things I don't Mind you Doing:

Creating edges than playing a character with those edges aka Mini-Playtesting (Aulrathdien)

Maxxing edge points/skills (I heard someone who was mad about this and laughed)

Playing PK intensive characters through all levels (I totally agree with you on two issues: Pre Hero PK is the best and "the game doesn't start at hero")

Having sick gear (well, to an extent, as I'll talk about shortly)


Things that piss me off about you:

Silent (It's just not fair. I know you say you still die there, but you wrote the area man! You know what EVERYTHING does. EVERYTHING.)

Your roles (seriously, they are great. That pisses me off :) :) :) hahaha)

You aren't the most "friendly" as in, I haven't ever interacted with a Nep character that was like "Hey guys! Want to explore and ####?". I remember wishing Cabdru would take me cool places but instead he just gave me wands :)

You perma just as bad as some cheaters some times. I understand why, but still.

You don't interact enough as your RP IMM persona. I don't think I've ever seen Daevryn more than 2 game hours and I've had 3 followers and been in your cabal 3 times.

Do you mean he and I? We used to roll stuff together but it's been probably at least six (probably ten??) years since we played anything that could be considered a "perma" and even then once I was on my own two feet in game we might have decided to roll same cabal at the same time but it wasn't really a perma situation. You can look at Andi's leveling, pks, etc, there's no Daev there. I think there is some Parv, ironically.

I mean, I loved Palmer and Vandrylon...but it's kinda funny you guys all ranked together quite a bit.

IMM PERMA FTW :)

Edited to add: And the Amaranda/Solasarath "perma" wasn't even bad.... Poor Nep was carrying you to all that gear and probably wishes he didn't have to heh.

PS I'll never forgive you for deleting Vandrylon.

So in that case you really should just get over it.

I did not know who Palmer was during any of that tine period, ironically.

I, too, miss that character. I'll roll another ho-baggin' male cow some day. Just cause it's fun to play.

Relax friend. Cheaters have been ruining CF and the CF community for decades. Shouting loudly about cheating, all the while cheating themselves.

Don't let it get to you big guy, plenty of fish in the sea and all that. It's a friendly game. Ignore the hub bub. Most of the cheaters are pretty terrible at the game anyway.

The administrator for a game adds an area full of some of the most powerful gear in the game. Not to mention practice spots, buffs and other things that makes it possible to perfect skills in 20 mins.

The administrator then changes the secrets again and again if they become too well known and adds a way to severely limit to chars that have access to it to certain imm approved chars (more or less).

And the players see this:

Cabdru is using:
<worn on finger> (Invis) (Magical) the ring of regeneration
<worn on finger> (Invis) (Magical) the ring of regeneration
<worn around neck> (Magical) an ivory amulet shaped like a troll
<worn around neck> (Magical) the Talisman of Ultimate Evil
<worn on body> hide armor from a yeti
<worn on head> (Glowing) the flaming crown of giants
<worn on face> (Magical) the copper mask of Anazu
<worn on legs> greaves of Elysium
<worn on feet> (Glowing) (Humming) a pair of darkened boots
<worn on hands> (Magical) a pair of gloves made of still-living lichen
<worn on arms> a plain phylactery
<worn about body> (Magical) a cloak of displacement
<worn about waist> a Girdle of the Anarchs
<worn around wrist> (Magical) a thick bracelet of burnished copper
<worn around wrist> (Magical) a thick bracelet of burnished copper
<wielded> the Axe of Mel-Kartha
<dual wield> (Magical) (Humming) Abomination, Axe of the Black Serpent
<tattooed> a disfiguring brand of a giant hand

and:

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=31&topic_id=10947&mesg_id=10953&page=

and from his wood-elf warrior MOB Death:

Nov 19, 2012|Lv 44|Nyathl Ikalith|a ghostly figure by knifing

And the thing is I'm ok with him using Silent for gear and practice but then adding a policy that severely limits other players ability to learn the same things that he uses again and again feels like ####.

It is like the world first raid achievements in World of Warcraft were all done by developers and their friends. People would get pissed.

Yep.

Are you ####ing serious?

From Cabdru PBF:

Wed Jun 14 23:26:21 2006 at level 51 (174 hrs):
Hero Delete

NINE years ago. 3285 days ago (not counting leap years). I think it's time you let it go. The game has evolved a crazy amount in that time. If you are going to try to make a point, at least use something temporally relevant.

Frankly, if I had to deal with some child bringing some #### up from nearly a decade ago... I'd just give up and program something to make it so I never see their posts. (Because banning is censorship and that's bad... I'm looking at you Valg. With the ol' stink eye.)

Smug are still viewed as rampant cheaters for things that happened last millennium. Not that I really give a ####. Just sayin..

Who the hell is Smug?

Scrimbul?

People must not be worried too much about him if I don't see anyone posting about him.

That's how I pronounced it.

It was a group o' mates from university in Aussie land who got a bad rap with the IMMs because of their (admittedly...though only after tickle fights with Challen) terrible cheating in the late 1990s.

Of which, Arolin and Palan are the two most famous (infamous?). Palan because he is awesome, Arolin because he is much less awesome yet not aware of the lessened awesomeness. Palan was once considered a peer of Nepenthe and Challen at PKing. Was killed by Zorszaul and lost a massive axe.

Eventually those two left (hahaha yeah right) after they got caught killing a Lich Scion Leader with some super cheesy bug exploits (and led to perhaps the greatest, longest-lasting conspiracy theory of all-time (other than who is in Shadow?) that to some STILL hasn't been suitably answered) and got Banzorred.

Apparently Arolin (aka mackle) says IMMs still hold a grudge. Who knew?

PS Ask anyone about ProudBlade. I dare you.

But now I'm extra confused why these people would be brought up as an example of someone who needs to be forgiven...

The only familiar name here (to me) is mackle and he JUST got caught cheating...

My god man. Every time this silly #### starts I feel a little bad for my inane ####. I certainly hope no one takes it that seriously.

If they do, just for the record, I am always armed. Don't stalk me.

I think a great many of us had Valg on ICQ back when he was proud blade. I certainly did back when I was known as Tweedster in the glimo days.

One thing you can say about him, is when he immed, he went all straight line and cut all contact with most of us that were still mortals, in the interest of being a fair staff member.

I almost wish he would stop censoring posts so I could like him.

Did the Imm staff come out and say "We avoid doing that these days"?

Is that something you require?

No offense man, but that seems like a really petty requirement.

>Is that something you require?
>

Of course not, that would be silly. But you cannot really use the "it was long ago defense" if it is seen as kosher today too?

>>Is that something you require?
>>
>
>Of course not, that would be silly. But you cannot really use
>the "it was long ago defense" if it is seen as kosher today
>too?

Ah. I hear ya.

Cheating at CF is the second highest sin. The first is censorship.

I totally agree if it's going on now, that #### should stop. I just think players should stop too.

I'm just sayin' bringing up something so long ago doesn't help your case. Bring up something more recent if you are convinced there is some #### going down.

>Nov 19, 2012|Lv 44|Nyathl Ikalith|a ghostly figure by knifing

Just to be clear, you're complaining about a character that got killed and looted by the area but took no gear out of it? :)

It's my turn. You and "immortal" go sit in the corner while I mediate.

I don't know what you did there because I don't know Silent as well as you do. It could be that you went in, tried to get something and failed. Or just wanted to try something. And it could be that you perfected all your secondary skills in 15 mins against some super practice mob (I doubt it as you soloed an elf and probably don't need to practice outside ranking).

I do now that CF has a history of pretty overpowered things that gets used by a small number of people (both imms and non imms) and then gets changed when it becomes too popular.

I really like Silent. I've died there tons and really tried exploring it solo. So maybe I'm just bitter that to be able to even look around there (me actually getting the powerful stuff is unlikely) I must play a religious char and kiss imm ass for a couple of hundred hours.

I must play a religious char and kiss imm ass for
>a couple of hundred hours.

I am sure imms are not looking to reward ass kissers, they reward people that try to give life to a char aka behave the way your char should behave when faced with the daily intricacies of life in Thera.

To give you an example, I recently made an assassin that after login in he would do some warm up exercises before doing his stuff (all through emotes). I did it because I wanted the immersion, and before I knew it I got my first ever lastname and this was at around level 25.

Like I said, imms reward those that try to bring life to a char.

All these screams are ridiculous. They are whines about imagined wrongdoings that end up being real in the whiner's mind after doing so much noise, and then the player feels hurt (even though he only hurt himself) and leaves.

I know what I am talking about, my business is in customer service, I face this constantly.

Jaeg

Like the strack. This dude is the man.

Silent Tower is one of the reasons I have a new found love for Sacer (unrequited as it may be).

Due to my petulance, even if I was to miraculously gain enough IMMXP to get the quest, I still wouldn't go there. Zero interest in it.

You remind me a bit of my elderly father who talks about the 80s as if they were a few short years ago. Anyway...

>1. More powerful items from area explore, often seen as
>secret and changed when it becomes common knowledge.

Eh, I guess this depends on what you mean by "now" versus when, exactly. Most of the really choice area explore gear has existed for over a decade, much of it close to two decades. Either way, I don't necessarily think that more gear (or more 'good' gear) actually "steers towards power gaming".

>2. More limited items and fewer good unlimited ones.

I can't easily verify this with hard numbers, but I can say that while we certainly have more items in the game (both limited and non) because we have more areas in the game, I don't think gearing has ever been easier. And I say that for pretty much any build at any level.

>3. It is more advantageous to solo or stop leveling to
>practice skills because my giant has easier to tank at low
>level than hero mobs. I can no longer perfect my skills on low
>level mobs.

Define low level? I have no problem with skills if I keep to razor-sharp mobs or better, which is relative. Like I said in response to you earlier, unless you're referring to puppy practice or arcane technique like that, I think you're way off base. Well, I think you're way off base anyway.

>4. RP/Role/Exploration/PK gives more advantages if you tailor
>them a certain way. If I want to play a simple son of a farmer
>that went to the big city to be a warrior and explore / rp as
>I go along I will most likely not get noticed. If I however
>plays a paladin that defended his village with his family's
>thousand old sword and it shattered; imbuing him with the
>souls of all his ancestors. Making him yell out things and
>seeking some Imm. Then I will get noticed and mechanically
>rewarded. If I run through htos for the 20th time I will get
>rewarded.

It's probably true that unique or interesting roles might do a little better in terms of XP than simple farmer, but I'm fine with that and I think it makes sense. That said, there is absolutely nothing stopping you from playing the simple farmer and having your role rated highly, assuming of course you're writing it well and covering all the basics (e.g., why is the simple farmer sphere chaos?!).

>You don't HAVE to do that but a power gamer will do it and
>will get rewarded for it.
>

>I can't easily verify this with hard numbers, but I can say
>that while we certainly have more items in the game (both
>limited and non) because we have more areas in the game, I
>don't think gearing has ever been easier. And I say that for
>pretty much any build at any level.

If you take in account relative power of those around you?

>Define low level? I have no problem with skills if I keep to
>razor-sharp mobs or better, which is relative. Like I said in
>response to you earlier, unless you're referring to puppy
>practice or arcane technique like that, I think you're way off
>base. Well, I think you're way off base anyway.

For example playing a giant axe warrior. If I want to get my defenses up it is way easier to do it at 15 than 51. Same with weapons and other skills (unless you find some nice friends that can tank for you).

I could of course be missing some tricks.

>It's probably true that unique or interesting roles might do a
>little better in terms of XP than simple farmer, but I'm fine
>with that and I think it makes sense. That said, there is
>absolutely nothing stopping you from playing the simple farmer
>and having your role rated highly, assuming of course you're
>writing it well and covering all the basics (e.g., why is the
>simple farmer sphere chaos?!).

English is my second language and I've never been good at writing stories so that limits me. So generally if I want a high rated role / chance at a role contest I need to have a very innovative role. I mean the only role I've had that placed high in a role contest did not even make sense to the characters alignment but it was cool. You guys have taken nice steps to limit the influence of the role writing though and I appreciate that.

But if I roll an explore character I probably still need to religious with it regardless if I want it or not just to be able to access some areas.

>>I can't easily verify this with hard numbers, but I can say
>>that while we certainly have more items in the game (both
>>limited and non) because we have more areas in the game, I
>>don't think gearing has ever been easier. And I say that
>> for pretty much any build at any level.
>
>If you take in account relative power of those around you?

We don't version control area files like we do the code, so none of us have any way of comparing things like item stats to previous version of areas like we can with code.

>>Define low level? I have no problem with skills if I keep to
>>razor-sharp mobs or better, which is relative. Like I said in
>>response to you earlier, unless you're referring to puppy
>>practice or arcane technique like that, I think you're way off
>>base. Well, I think you're way off base anyway.
>
>For example playing a giant axe warrior. If I want to get my
>defenses up it is way easier to do it at 15 than 51. Same with
>weapons and other skills (unless you find some nice friends
>that can tank for you).
>
>I could of course be missing some tricks.

I agree that generally speaking it is more convenient (and advantageous) to get skills up around 15. Short of some serious power-leveling though, I don't think any heroes skill should be all that bad even if they don't explicitly practice. If you want the advantage of high/maxxed skills ASAP then yes, it's going to cost you some wrench time.


>>It's probably true that unique or interesting roles might do a
>>little better in terms of XP than simple farmer, but I'm fine
>>with that and I think it makes sense. That said, there is
>>absolutely nothing stopping you from playing the simple farmer
>>and having your role rated highly, assuming of course you're
>>writing it well and covering all the basics (e.g., why is the
>>simple farmer sphere chaos?!).
>
>English is my second language and I've never been good at
>writing stories so that limits me. So generally if I want a
>high rated role / chance at a role contest I need to have a
>very innovative role. I mean the only role I've had that
>placed high in a role contest did not even make sense to the
>characters alignment but it was cool. You guys have taken nice
>steps to limit the influence of the role writing though and I
>appreciate that.

Roles and ESL don't mix perfectly, but again if your role covers the important stuff (sphere, class choice, cabal aspirations, etc.) then you're probably going to do okay if you can manage capitalization and periods as well.

>But if I roll an explore character I probably still need to
>religious with it regardless if I want it or not just to be
>able to access some areas.

One area. One of 250+ areas or one of 30+ explore areas. Anyways, that's not my call (or anyone's but Daev's).

Especially considering role exp doesn't go towards it anymore. 2k imm exp is not what most of the hero playerbase is going to be packing, I guarantee it.


I mean, I'm not complaining really, because I didn't bother writing a role on this character (that I am probably going to have to let go for RL reasons soon anyways, super sad face). But I'm an example of a leader with not 1 point of imm exp. And if a leader can go without getting a single point, there has to be half the heroes out there that don't follow a god that have a very small amount too.

So its either actively seek out imms and try and milk them for exp in some way, or not get to experience an area in the game (certainly one of the two coolest ones) because I like to be a loner, and may not get noticed as much.

I really think it needs to be looked at in the interest of fairness. Maybe not removed, but halving it is very, very reasonable. 1k would be more than fair I think. Remember, its just an area, in a game, that we play in our free time. I shouldn't have to have 300 hours and hope to have the imm experience by then since I don't really approach or deal with many imms to get exp. I understand not wanting people to roll throwaway explore characters for silent tower, but 1k exp would be more than enough to prevent that.

Just a thought from a current leader.

Maybe I am an odd duck but I know right now I am sitting with more than 2k IMMEXP, and I don't even know how to start with the area that we are talking about. Its not overly hard to do from what I have seen so far. Keep up a good RP, don't do childish OOC when you loose gear, stick to your role, and make an effort to be the character and not a skin of a character over yourself. The imms are watching and rewarding for good play, just enjoy the ride.

Though I will say this: IMMS! It seems like you have slowed down on snooping, please don't slow down on this! It is needed! You split the xp for roles and imm xp with the thought that you would increase snooping and rewarding for good play.

If youre an empowered character, the imm exp will come much easier. If you follow a god, same thing. Not just a little easier. MUCH easier.

If you don't and you just keep your head down and do you, chances are you won't have that much. You might get a 250 or something for a badass retrieval, or if you are lucky, a quirky tell. 2k though? Thats like getting random imm exp 8 times, good luck if you aren't following a religion, a major player in a cabal, or pking the #### out of everything that moves and making big, big plays on the pk field. Your average guy just isn't going to accumulate that much imm exp. And if he does, it is going to take half his characters life almost.


Pretty unfair that just because someone follows a god, they can go in a certain area, and pull out flasks that immolate people, items that make you resist things that are rare to resist, lifesurge, a MULTITUDE of the best staves and scrolls in the game, hands down without even a close second. That's me scratching the surface, at best. I almost had a heart attack identifying some of the talismans from that place. It's not even close to on par with the other area stuff.


The area creates a massive, massive, advantage to anyone that can get in, and I don't think it is fair that it is gated to such a large degree when it has such a massive impact on gameplay. I really didn't have a problem with the requirement before, but with role exp not counting anymore, it really made the whole entry system a chore.

I love the area. Love it. But id like to see it once in a while. I don't have the time I used to have gaming and i'm lucky to get an hour or two session in nowadays.

There is no way you will see a hero of mine that has the 2k imm exp without lifesurge or immolate flasks. And just those 2 things alone will swing most fights massively in my favor, most other things being equal.

If it is going to be a 'gated' area allowed only with IMM approval, then the items contained inside should be 'toned down'.

I have a log where I attack Voralia, and am not even directly targeted by her- and her ST gear beats the living #### out of me.

If the stuff in that area is really that powerful, then I am super glad it is gated so hard. In fact, I'd prefer it were gated even harder. So hard.

nt

Staves and scrolls are more or less meaningless in the context of an actual PK situation. The ones that do something interesting all have high enough barriers to farming that you just never really see them used in PK except in a blue moon and even then they rarely result in a corpse where there wouldn't be one otherwise.

Silent tower does have nifty gear but the stuff people can actually get their hands on reliably is more flash then impact outside of niche situations.

You are right that imm followers are more likely to hit that barrier but the biggest upside to getting into silent tower is the load of explore/observe exp you can harvest with little effort if you know how to navigate it, and the relative value of those xpads has decreased.

A more productive thread would be getting it acceptable for goodies to run through hell and maybe making some of that stuff not anti-good because that is a real treasure trove of game balance affecting gear.

Some of the stuff in silent is very easy to get for most builds and has a huge pk impact when used. Back when I had characters that were able to tank I had said things for every fight, pretty much. And they make a huge difference.

What you are describing is just not a standard case.

They could remove the requirement entirely and you are only looking at maybe 3 pieces of unique gear being in circulation more commonly which even then would at most benifit 3 characters at a time.

The overhead of stockpiling the consumables is pretty high I imagine it would be as common as using the aura potion

And when you're 4 rounding elves in darsylon for 700exp each in a group you can get levels faster than you get skill %'s in whatever you're 'spamming' (don't know if it's spam if you only get time to use the skill once or twice per battle)

If you're aiming to have everything you'll PK with at 100% the level you get it, you fight easy kill/no match mobs, preferably neutral ones. Razor and above give you way way too much exp. It's also inefficient if you're soloing because of the ratio of time spent in combat vs time resting. You'll probably get more skills gains in an RL hour of fighting things you can tank without issue and resting inbetween, even if the razor mob gives slightly more gains per minute of active combat.

I keep trying to explain these things to people in game but they just don't get it. I saw a dwarf take several RL days to perfect cranial because of this perverse insistence on soloing mobs you can't tank properly.

...I feel like there's some kinda gap between perception and reality. It's like the admins feel there's a mostly perfect product that needs minor tweaks - but the grind on this game so vastly overshadows the amount of time you can spend having real *fun* it's going to take a lot more than subtle tweaks to fix that.

CF has needed some big changes for about 10 years now. People directly state the reasons why they don't play and it comes down to the same stuff every single time. Time sink, reward policies, wand system, "exploration system", snarky playerbase/painful play experience. The admins tend to take a policy that makes sense - like reduce the edge gap - and implement it in such a way that you still need to grind out edge XP like a maniac to compete...it's like they can't just take the simple approach of boosting how much you get for natural leveling and aging while simultaneously reducing obs and comm. XP. It's like the playerbase has to be punished for stuff - like they're doing something awful by wanting to play this game.

Most gamers are not enthralled specifically with MUDs. They look at it as a general statement of "how much time do I have to have fun and how much fun can I have within that time period". And CF loses that argument more and more every year.

Combine that with a willful disregard for listening to what people are saying and you see where the exasperation comes in. I'll come out and say it directly - CF needs to require less time to play. Period, amen, stick a fork in it. And not a little less time, a lot less time. Like 1/3rd what it takes now. Because especially with less players involved, you need to be able to enjoy yourself more and grind less.

Which was an article about DnD that I thought perhaps had some CF correlation. It sparked a lively debate with no one.

This game has always changed and evolved. I remember when people were upset they could no longer charm X and make them remove all, drop all, sac all.

I promise everyone that imms do not spend hundreds if not thousands of hours just to piss off some of the vocal minority. They usually see the big picture better than the rest of us. Is there some differences between the rewards that different imms hand out-sure. It has always been this way, but I know the imms try to even this out.

Polmier