So with Recuperate and Berserk...

Berserk only works in combat now... and it still heals?... and now they get an out of combat heal now too? ...this recuperate?

It has been a while since I have played a character that berserks. It was a 10% heal correct? With Recuperate they have the potential to heal instantly now what...another 10% out of combat... for a total of 20%?

A lot more warriors dead to plague and poison

nt

I use berserk to help with skill training. I will berserk to keep the skill % lower so the skills improve quicker and you get more "you learn from your mistakes" type improvements.

It isn't as vital with high int races as they get skill gains pretty quickly. It sure seems to help with low int races though. Now you can't do this as easily, mostly because you can't sleep between fights while berserked. You'd likely waste more time waiting off the berserk to sleep than you would trying for skill gains at normal skill % levels.

Personally, I think you should do away with int based skill gain rates, at least for martial abilities. I can see an argument for intelligence being a factor in learning a spell/commune because they are accomplished mostly with mental faculties. Martial based abilities are not so much. Getting good at a martial ability is a combination of strength, agility, hand-eye coordination and most importantly muscle memory. You don't need to be a genius to be a pro-athlete.

yeaaaah

I didn't do any exact analysis, but it sure felt like it that being berserk after a fight and healing without being able to sleep is now slower than before (on a non-high WIS char). Regaining hp by recuperating once every few hours seems clearly below what being able to sleep while berserk used to be. This leads to more down time between fights than previously, which certainly is no fun. Of course recuperate might get better as the skill % increases (both in effectiveness and failing less often), but IMHO hp regeneration by berserk+recuperate+resting should roughly equal the old berserk+sleeping even at low recuperate skill. So maybe tweak up recuperate a bit, please?

... wouldn't it make sense that there are some negatives as well, and that a small decrease to healing is one of them?

It seems that berserk is being tweaked to be a bit more tactical. We just have to adjust.

And added another skill to practice.

Hutto

Is there a reason that orcs don't get recuperate? Seems to hurt an orc now more then help. Orcs don't get a healer at there recall point they can use and they lose slaves if they sleep. They get blood skins but they are a pain to collect and add significant weight.

Are they different bonuses added for orc than what was already there before the change?

Part of being an orc that is lost is that the berserk provided an auto attack to catch sneaky elves. Now have to actually have been in combat prior in order for the berserk to be active.

Shig-ru especially will often want to be zerking before a fight starts.

Is there a reason that orcs don't get recuperate?

It doesn't fit the class RP/design at all.

All berserkers got enhancements to the base skill, which works significantly better than it would for warriors.

I don't think the class (including the Shig-Ru adaptation) needs more than that-- we're seeing plenty of PK-successful orcs.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

The changes seem mostly good and berserk makes much more sense now. What I don't like that you cannot prep with berserk before fighting any more, so would Valg & co. perhaps consider a small further tweak? Sort of in the vein of the old orcish version, where you gain more benefit if you do it in combat: so my wish and proposal would be that out of combat you just don't get the hp bonus.

Or maybe alternatively an edge that allows you to enter berserk state at will.

nt

gr

The skill got several significant upgrades, in addition to the drawbacks related to voluntary sleep and the requirement for in-combat use.

The design goal wasn't to make the skill much more powerful.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

gr

nt

I don't agree that the skill is weaker in its current incarnation, especially considering the addition of Recuperate. It's moved into a combat role, and even a low level of knockout resistance is a potential lifesaver.

If you have anything useful to add on this point, feel free to post it.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

just for me and mine this is my thinking about the new berserk.

The 100ish hp heal and the 100hp maxhp is much worse than being able to sleep afterwards, I know it has some other affects as you have said but in a normal fighting situation it is almost useless. In my pk fights since it has arrived I have seen no one use it, neither have I. My reasoning behind it is in the few tick I can rest and heal (sometimes with slow sometimes without) it is still a huge gain in hp being able to sleep for 5 of the 8 ticks you cannot with berserk, plus the lesser chance to flee. Especially with all the skills that cause bleeding now, having to rest for the 8 ticks even with recup (which is 28hp heal) being able to sleep much outweighs the benefits new berserk offers. Maybe in a ranking situation where you can fight the entire 8 ticks it could be useful, but honestly at hero I never see myself using it in a pk situation, the risks don't outweigh the benefits.

I also understand it helps with getting knocked out, but I have not had that come into play.

so the short list of why I won't use it in pk, no pk last 8 ticks and most fights are hit and run instead of stand there and slug it out. So better to be able to sleep than to have a small bonus.

A skill became more niche, and better in that niche, since you heal in combat better much like bloodlost, than something you use constantly out of combat...hm...

Its not better its worse, and you dont heal better in combat you heal exactly the same as before(if there is a change it is in the single percentile range and not noticable), there has been no change to the amomunt you get from berserk or the ammount you heal while fighting per tick... so not sure what niche your are talking about.

From a log posted, this guy is a hero at the time I am assuming.
wilderness <666/842hp 631m 897mv 26000tnl (-24.40%) 4 PM> Your pulse races as you are consumed by rage!
A massive giant is gushing blood.

wilderness <778/954hp 601m 847mv 26000tnl (-24.40%) 4 PM>
A black rhinoceros has fled!
He goes up 112.
I think it was 2 per level before, so 102.
Not that an extra 10 hps is a lot.

.

This is a very small counter-point in that it only affects 1 very specific build. That build is the Shig-ru Orc.

there are often times as a Shig-Ru that you want to be berserking before combat, for the DR benefit - which is pretty sizable.

Would you consider separating the DR benefit from berserk with Shig-Ru and maybe giving them some DR command that can be used pre-combat?

Or, maybe because Shig-Ru are "so good" at being pissed off they are the only build that can berserk out of combat?

While I think your change is good, you inadvertently changed the dynamic of one of the more popular Orc builds.

The lag protection from masochism is what makes it possible to even try to engage things like greeting giant/paladin teams.

On the other hand it's quite possible to just attack whatever's nearby and then start zerking, it would be an inconvenience but if you must be zerking before the fight you can make it happen.

And my bad, but I'm talking about the resist physical properties of Shig-Ru berserk.

Bigger deal than damroll, but still less so than masochism.

As I understand it now the positives and negatives of berserk (for a warrior) are (with the changes in bold):

+ hp
+ hp also added to max health temporarily
+ dam/hit
+ some resistance to spells
+ some resistance to being knocked out/slept
+ increased rate of healing during combat (I assume this is new)

- penalties to most skills/spells/powers %
- minor AC penalty
- vulnerability to mental attacks (removable with an edge)
- only usable in combat
- no voluntary sleep
- slightly harder to flee

+/- skill success impacted by morale (I assume this is new)

I agree that the upgrades are good, but my concern is that warrior (+berserker) has turned pretty much into the only class that has to do its class-based buffs in combat, when others get to prep beforehand and focus on other things during combat (warcry used to be in or out of combat too, and you could argue their "realistic" use either way).

So that is why I suggested a less beneficial out of combat use; actually I would be happy without even the knock out resistance besides the +hp, so out of combat berserk would be pretty similar to how it was before (when taking recuperate into account). I know my warriors will rather sorely miss the ability prep with some +dam/+hit/spell resistance.

typically happen before combat.
I.e. before you'll get a chance to berserk, unless you can be arsed to warm yourself up on a low-level mob.

This will only help with flee/knockout tactics.

You are both discounting cranial/choke/stun as well as ignoring the fact that you can go fight an easy mob, berserk, then head into a raid situation with some protection now. Let me know if I am missing something, but the skill has gained some interesting utility.

nt

Yeah, noticed that second time around. My bad ;).

Using a low level mob just to berserk has always seemed sort of bleh in an exploiting-mechanics kinda way, but I guess I'll have to just look to do that more.

As for the physical knockout resistance, it's certainly a nice addition to the skill, but in general the (sleep) spell resistance is more important, as getting slept by a necro/ap tends to lead to a much uglier result.

As for the physical knockout resistance, it's certainly a nice addition to the skill, but in general the (sleep) spell resistance is more important, as getting slept by a necro/ap tends to lead to a much uglier result.

From the helpfile: "Berserk fighters also have some degree of resistance to being knocked unconscious by physical or magical means."

It applies to most/all ways of being rendered asleep or unconscious.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

.

So, whatever chance a Berserk character had of being slept by a necromancer or AP before, they have less chance of being slept now.

valguarnera@carrionfields.com

...prevented berserk. Does it also prevent recuperate?

n/t

gr

Which called for a healing skill to compensate.
And berserk was 2x level in hp.