A few thoughts about village setup/powers and how they can be improved and more accuretly reflect their position. I won't comment on berserkers because I think they are fine as is.

The thought came to me that scouts and defenders are for the most part ill-suited for scouting and defending. First let me define my idea of scouting and defending so we are on the same page here.

Scouting is going afield to determine enemy positions, strengths/weaknesses and report these back to the village and potentially to strike when the occassion arises.

Defending is as its name implies defending the village and villagers from attack and hopefully killing/repulsing any attempts at attack.

Scouts only have one ability that is directly related to gathering intel and that is 'discern spell'. Outside of this, their abilities are primarily focused on offense (critical strike) and defense (spell evvasion). They literally are only scouts in name and RP - not in terms of their actual abilites besides discern spell.

Now - I understand part of this is likely so they don't end up looking overly like imperial shadows who actually do excel at gathering intel, but there are a few ways to structure their abilities so they can remain unique and more 'scout-like' than they are now.

Examining Scouts:

Villagers have to walk everywhere. Its part of their charm. No wording. No teleporting. The end result is most villagers don't tend to stray very far from the village for obvious reasons. By definition a scout should be far afield looking to report enemy positions so that other villagers don't need to either patrol eastern all the time or risk going afield without any idea who they will come across and an inability to escape the situation. Ideally a villager can go straight to where the enemy is, kill them, and get out.

So its pretty obvious that what scouts need is information and mobility plus a means to be self-sufficient while they are far afield. This lays the basis for the following suggestions.

1. Scouts need 'shortcuts' similar to those used by Outlanders. Former outlander turned villager what have you as explanation. This would give scouts the mobility they need to get around Thera to locate enemies quickly.

2. Scouts need a means to locate enemies. I like the idea of 'sympathizers' who act in the same capacity as tribunal informants. Discovering which mobs are sympathetic to the villagers war would be on the scouts, but once found they can ask these sympathizers if a specific target has passed by them recently. Would only work if the target is a mage perhaps?

3. Scouts should lose critical strike. More on this in a moment.

4. Scouts should gain poultice and field dressing. More on this in a moment.

The reason I believe scouts should trade those above abilities with defenders is because going back to the core function of a scout, they are the ones far afield, away from the village. They should be the ones trained to be self-sufficient and able to mend their own wounds (and others) because of all the villagers they are most likely (by design) to be at risk of being unable to make it back to the village and also as field medics (which defenders basically are now) fits better with a person who can move quickly the way a scout should (per suggestions).

Add all the above up and what you end up with is a scout who can traverse Thera fairly quicly (for a villager), who can use that speed to bring aid to villagers (healing abilities), and can cut down on the time required to find enemies by developing a network of sympathizers. For extra consideration though not as needed would be allowing scouts who can hide (thieves/assassins) to speak over CB without coming out of hiding. A last consideration is having 'spell evasion' also protect a hider from being brought out by faerie fog (if it doesnt already do this).

Examining Defenders:

As the name suggests, a defender protects the village proper and to a lesser degree other villagers (as evidenced by doubleblock). However outside of doubleblock they dont have a single ability which neatly fits into the idea of defense. What they are is field medics, which isn't truly a defensive role. Healing people in an indirect way of course aids defense but it isn't really an 'active' defense. It's more in response to damage thats already been done.

In my opinion defenders should have an array of abilities that are tied directly to being within the village proper and don't work elsewhere along with a couple abilities that work everywhere.

Examples:

Call Archers:

Defenders within the village can call upon unseen village archers who will fire upon any enemies in the same room as the defender (area attack) which can result in a variety of random effects (immolation, poison, bleeding).

Chaos of War:

While fighting within the village, a defender can randomly increase the amount of chaos on the battlefield to their benefit by triggering various room-dependent traps set inside the village. Also at times a village defender will come to a defenders aid and rescue/doubleblock for them. All of this would be auto and random. Possible effects could be smokebombs which temporarily blind the enemy, caltraps on the ground,log traps in wilderness rooms, etc. Basically while fighting there is a chance for any of this stuff to happen (or for none of it to happen).

And as mentioned, I'd give defenders critical strike instead of scouts (and make the dispelling edge for it a normal feature) because critical strike is a means mostly to scare away people with big damage through their protections. Something more suited for a defender than a scout....assuming you want people who fight/defend rather than field medics.

Just a thought.

It has the richest history
It has the best cabal + NPC's inside of the Cabal
The Rites are awesome
Cabal powers fit just fine...

I really don't understand why you'd change any of it, I love it the way it is.

Destroy magic. Kill mages.

The other cabals are mucked up with complex rules.

1.

The vast majority of people who play Ragers want to be Berserkers.

This has always been a fact. When 'we' say the powers are just fine we are by our actions actually saying 'We like deathblow' so everything else is just fine. If this wasn't the case you would see a more even distribution of what type of rager people want to play.

What you get in reality is typically people wanting to be Berserkers with a few likely long-time Ragers like me who try and balance things out by being scouts and defenders.

That is the anti-thesis of a balanced set of skills. So I don't think the powers fit 'just fine'. I think they are 'just fine' for people who either don't play anything but berserkers (which I agree completely that berserker powers ARE just fine) or people who haven't spent much time playing every rager build.

Are there times when scouts or defenders slightly dominate? Yes. But when was the last time the cabal leadership literally had to send a note to everyone saying they were not accepting anymore applicants who wanted to be scouts or defenders or needed for those applicants to show something a little extra-special?

NEVER.

But it happens all the time in terms of berserkers.


We can argue about this but the proof is in the pudding and that pudding is called DEMAND. The highest demand by far goes to berserkers. So explain to me why you wouldn't want to change things up a bit and actually ADD abilities to scouts and defenders without actually taking away any - just move them around so they make sense in terms of the RP of a scout and defender?

2. I'm unsure what makes Battle NPCs more awesome than any other cabals NPC's. Unless you mean that to my knowledge many if not all of them were once players in which case I can agree. I get a kick every time I look at Rhuean (i think thats the spelling, arial whip/dagger) because I had a rager or two when he was around and he used to kick ass and take names with that whip/dagger combo.

3. I agree Battle has a rich history. Being one of the if not the oldest cabal it should.

4. The Rites ARE awesome. Totally agree.

I recently played Zeke

I steamrolled EVERY SINGLE villager I met with the exception of 1. Granted, The commander was harder to kill than your run-of-the-mill berserker.

Hexugar

Hexugar was a scout, and my main opposition. I never managed to take him down solo, and he is the only villager I did not manage to do so with. When played right, A scout is far more devastating to almost every mage class than a berserker. With my mage, I'd take a fight with ANY berserker, and I always smiled when I saw the old bloodthirst come up, because it was a death sentence - for them.

As you said, the proof is in the pudding.

Also, I've actually played as many scouts/defenders as I have berserkers (or very very close to it)

Your entire argument is based on fighting. Where was the scouting? To me if your argument rests on the fact you could steamroll people in PK then you completely missed the point.

What about your abilities make you better at SCOUTING. As in going around finding enemies. What about your abilities makes it any easier to scout than any other rager build excluding disern spell which gives you information?

The problem I am having in this post is that everyone seems to relate the effectiveness of a build to how many PKs that build can do. That is not my argument at all.

You could create a scout or defender build that generates 10000 PK wins at the end of the day and my argument wouldn't change because it isnt based on how many people you can kill but how effective it is at doing what the name of the build implies.

There is nothing a scout has that makes them better at finding people than any other rager build. There is only one skill scouts get that provides them more information than any other rager build. They have no skills that aid their mobility which as scouts you would think they would. At the very least more mv regen.

To me a successful SCOUT is someone who can say at the end of the day I supported the village by helping locate 10,000 enemies in far away places off the beaten track. Not by locating a few around Galadon, Eastern or the nearest cabal. A certainly not by pointing out a pile of corpses they created. Great PKing yes. But what about the list of people you helped locate and provide intel on?


To me a successful DEFENDER is someone who can say at the end of the day I killed and/or drove off groups of 10,000 enemies who tried to kill the Destructor all on my own. This is because I believe since the village is the weakest cabal without the head their defenders should be among the strongest around when it comes to defending same.

That scouts are the only village spec that can call all of their powers without stepping out of shadows/camo/etc right?

And that my friend, is a HUUUGE bonus to scouting... not to mention it pretty much negates this sentence from your post

"There is nothing a scout has that makes them better at finding people than any other rager build. There is only one skill scouts get that provides them more information than any other rager build. They have no skills that aid their mobility which as scouts you would think they would. At the very least more mv regen."

Your posts tell me that you don't have the solid grasp on village mechanics that you think you do.

Was that all scouts were thieves, assassins and rangers.


This line here :

That scouts are the only village spec that can call all of their powers without stepping out of shadows/camo

Tells me you haven't paid attention to what type of builds alot of people use for creating scouts or why. The reason is because of how critical strike works. Right now of the only two scouts in the entire village one is a warrior and the other is a thief. So maybe you are half-right. And didn't you just point out that the kickass scout was Hexugar - a warrior.


Oh...and for the record...they can't talk on CB without coming out of shadows....just GREAT for someone reporting on an enemies location right?

Scout powers mesh extremely well with hiding classes, and spell evasion specifically is humongous when you're hiding and in the act of scouting.

Sure, some people will want to play warrior scouts or bard scouts and that's fine, a warrior acolyte or a thief trib don't really get the best-case-scenario out of their class/cabal choice either.

But that's okay.

can't talk on CB without coming out of shadows....just GREAT for someone reporting on an enmies location right?

That's pretty easy to work around.

Are you looking for powers that would allow BATTLE guys to show up where ever, when ever? That is supposed to be BATTLEs weak point.

Not wherever, whenever...but certainly easier for scouts to you kmnow...scout.

Seriously, what exactly makes a scout a scout? Think about it without thinking about your last kickass scout who could kill people. How many scouts actually go around scouting outside of noticing someone where they are and reporting it? Or scouting out who is at a cabal during a raid/retrieval?

Meaning...

What is it about scout abilities that makes them any better at the act of scouting than any other rager build specifically.?

What skill or ability do they have that makes it easier to find an enemy or groups of enemies, as in 'scout' ing for the enemies location?

What skill or ability underscores that scouts are better suited for loing-range excursions into enemy territory than any other villager build?

If we were talking about for example Navy Seals or somesuch (i dont know the military well) versus an Army guy who won't likely set foot on water i'd expect the Navy seal to be able to hold their breathe underwater longer than the guy whose training is meant for a different type of purpose. Who knows, maybe the army guy and the navy seal get the exact same type of training. I could be wrong.

I'm basing this argument on the notion that hiding classes synergize better with Scout powers much, much better than non-hiding classes. So...

>What is it about scout abilities that makes them any better at the act of scouting than any other rager build specifically.?

Spell evasion is huge here. I have evaded more than two dozen attempts to flush me out in a row, while reporting on enemy locations and what I was able to glean from discern while never stepping out of the shadows thanks to the fact that I was a scout.

>What skill or ability do they have that makes it easier to find an enemy or groups of enemies, as in 'scout' ing for the enemies location?

This is another where not stepping out is huge. It's possible for a hiding scout to use his network of friends and allies to find his prey without them even knowing he's awake thanks to this.

>What skill or ability underscores that scouts are better suited for loing-range excursions into enemy territory than any other villager build?

No Villager is really suited for this sort of thing, really, but again spell evasion and not stepping out is huge. The fact that you (unlike Outlander or Fort) can pay centurions goes a long way and things like insects are not as big a deal because you can't recall or teleport anyway also enter the equation. You're still susceptible to movement draining techniques, but at this point critical becomes a big part of your arsenal, because if they do catch you, a few ***DEMO***s through protection can often get them to run, though critical rarely will get you a kill.

I know a lot of scouts actually do engage in scouting behavior.
Here's what a scout for Battle functions as in my mind.

You're the first one in to the battle, the last one out of a battle. You need powers that will aid you in being alone in those situations. Your legs, area knowledge and liberal use of the where command are how you scout (not some cabal power) for enemies.
So yes, you head to the enemy cabal first, see who is there. You don't need hiding/camo to do this, anyone can do this. That's like saying scouts need locate mark, detect hidden and acute vision to do their jobs. I don't need a power to make the act of scouting easier, I need powers that keep me alive so I can engage in the act of scouting.

How do current scout powers work with this?
Spell evasion is huge in you being able to stay alive when you do in fact go out scouting. I wish it allowed quicksand evasion, but that would probably be too good. Avoiding faerie fog as any hiding class is an amazing perk. Considering most mages that have them will use area spells to bypass spellbane on ragers, the scout eliminates that method of attack against them (and bloodthirst baning area spells is nowhere near the same thing)

Critical hit is great for getting a guy who engages you off your back, while not really being an effective tool to actually seal a kill. It makes you a lot harder to be killed against any class with dam redux, which means you don't have to worry as much about being far from the village. A full ABS invoker can and will kill most any defender or berserker rager solo that is away from the village, where as a scout they can virtually do nothing to you, except try to delay you.

And Discern spell is discern spell, and utilizing that and giving that information out to others is extremely useful.

You're viewing scouting as in an ability that aids in finding people alone.
The powers of a Battle scout are designed to help them survive when they are out alone looking for people. They may synergize more with hiding classes, but that doesn't mean they don't function with other classes. How you play the character is how you engage in scouting, not just calling certain powers.

You want to see what scout powers are capable of doing, there is a log of me in the frozen area north of udgaard falling into quicksand where Onya was waiting. I survived barely, and I'll say it was solely because I was a scout. Any berserker/defender caught in that area in that situation dies 100% of the time. And I was a bard, which I would argue is the best class to be a scout with, because you can be entirely self reliant to the point you CAN go out to places other ragers would never attempt because getting caught would be death. As a scout I was able to do what other ragers couldn't as easily. Go out and look in remote place for people, and survive/escape group engagements against me when caught out there.

And the funny part is you actually highlighted a couple of the points I made in terms of why 'all' scouts should have something to address those points - mobility (can refresh their legs), healing (can heal themselves) and multiple skills that can help them escape a bad situation (they can put enemies to sleep, can calm down aggro mobs, they can fight entire groups without a problem, and can make it so many skills don't land which combined with spell evasion means uits hard to land anything on a bard scout).


Thanks!

However I'm done. I get it. Battle is the greatest cabal in the whole universe and I am very very wrong. Their abilities are perfectly balanced and this is reflected by the great number of applicants wanting to be scouts, defenders and berserkers and not just berserkers. I shall sacrifice a goat at the altar to Thror and pray that He forgives my transgressions :)

damned imperial gangs!!!!

Scouts are not unique to the cabal, people act as scouts for all the cabals really, by virtue of class skills. The scout path in Battle just is intended to compliment a Battle character in engaging in those activities.

Rangers have camo, pathfinding and herbs. That's enough to escape most situations, since you have stealth and survivability.

Assassins have hide/sneak, blindness dust, bind wounds and vanish. Again, stealth coupled with survivability already built into the class.

Thieves can do any number of things depdning on their paths, but being able to flee and hide is great for stealth and survivability. Gentle walk, acrobatics, knock out. You get the idea.

Bards are bards. Enjoy being bashed into oblivion the second you make a mistake or watching everyone you fight just walk away from you because you can't hold them in combat when you take control.

So, that leaves warriors, which can be so varied based on specs/legacies that it is hard to gauge. But a defensive minded warrior can make as good a scout as any one.

So what is it scouts lack that you think they need, if a person were of a mind to play a scout as a person who focuses more on scouting Thera over PK.

Movement regen- at most ranks movement is never a problem. Take seasoned traveler, which is very cheap and does all you need and can be taken very early on. There are some easy gear pieces that enhance regen as well. A cabal power that refreshes would be all but irrelevant for most people by rank 35. Give them light pathfinding if you want to give them something.

Healing, most all rager classes except thieves have a manner of healing some amount built into their class abilities. Extra healing abilities goes to defenders, and healing does not equate to survivability for a rager caught in the middle of nowhere. To me, it adds up to delaying the inevitable in a lot of fights. People who spam heal in fights usually lose.

Situational utility- Scout powers definitely already provide this, but situations change too much to have powers that help in every scenario. I love critical for running off a prepped mage, spell evasion is an always on great defensive perk that I would probably take on any character I could.

All rager classes have multiple skills to use in most situations. Class skills are supposed to be primary tools, cabal powers are supposed to compliment but not take the place of those. You have to capitalize on your class skills to escape a bad situation, most of which all rager classes have built into the class, which spell evasion and critical compliment very well. They don't take the place of them, but they do aid.

When you look at how a scout functions in the way you want, all the classes ragers can be can do this very well without any cabal powers, with the exception of maybe warriors, and even then that would depend very much on the build.

Honestly, people playing scouts would be annoyed if their powers did things like movement regen, healing, locating people because those are things most players can already cover without cabal powers, and they'd probably do very little to make the actual act of scouting enemies very easy. Track would be neat I guess, if it worked.

I could see maybe scouts getting a narrow version of treeform, where they can conceal themselves in a room and spam where (with suitable lag on entering and exiting so as to not replace hide/camo), but can execute no other commands except maybe CB. Outside of that, I'm not sure what else a scout really needs to be effective as a scout that any scout doesn't already have through class skills and the rager powers they have now.

n/t

Your inherent argument is flawed. Deathblow appeals to the massess when they don't have a full understanding of the downsides of the berserker path.

I find that vets playing defenders/scouts are more deadly/scary more often than berserkers.

Seriously, just because something is "popular" does not make it "the best"

The.

Goat.

Has.

Been.

SACRIFICED!

We have thieves in CF too. How many of them are about thieving? Less than 10%? And I'd say that's a generous guess.

If they changed the name of scouts to "tacticians" would that be better?

And scouts have always been the ones that killed my fairly strong aps, or indeed defenders.

Scouts probably since they can tell how long to draw out the fight before turning on me, and defenders because it suits some builds well, like bard or Stsf warrior.

For example, it was yhorians defender bard that soloed my ap that had an 80 plus charge weapon, when gangs of zerkers died to her. Another ap of mine died to a cloud scout.

When played right, they are good. Just not every build can play to their strengths.

No matter how absurd, crack-brained, and difficult-to-code your ideas are sometimes, I can't help but be impressed by your dauntless determination to bring fresh, big picture ideas to the scene.

I reward you with the first and last annual Matrik's Player of the Year award.

I humbly accept this award on behalf of Dead Horses everywhere!

Thank you all!

Defenders are good at defending. You even have archetypal builds, like elf dagger defender warrior with striking legacy.

You must be able to see how evading area affects helps with scouting?

Basically scout lends itself to a stealth class, but still accommodates others. Think of it as a scout crossed with a hit squad.

Scout thieves and assassins don't step out of hiding when using village powers

Please explain how being able to avoid a spell helps with gathering information about enemy locations, strengths, and weaknesses. Also note that in my initial post I didn't mention spell evasion as something scouts shouldn't have. Specifically I mentioned that critical strike should be traded for abilites that help those who are going to be far away from the village survive better - like the field medic abilities of poultice and that other one.

I actually agree that spell evasion is good for someone who scouts and fits their core function esp. if it helps them avoid faerie fog and other things that can bring them out of hiding.

You can find out more about your enemy if he doesn't know you are there, and spell evasion helps avoid being spotted. For example, you can be beside them at their outer checking out their spell effects without then knowing, and likely hear a lot of what they are discussing in many cases.

Pretty easy to work out the benefits if you imagine how it would differ if someone flushed you out.

Also scout can venture into riskier areas without as much fear of being trapped by a gang. For example, my scout was jumped by magi a lot in Aran gird and they couldn't do much to me at all.

Please explain to me in your own words exactly which abilities excluding doubleblock that a defender has that actually aids in defending? Not stock abilties that anyone gets but specifically abilties they get for being defenders.

No one else in the village can do more than heal blindness, poison and disease.

Defenders can heal all of those and more every 5-6 ticks.

It's the synergies. Resist to make it hard to drop them outright, and the ability to heal like a mofo with field dressing, and she'd maladictions with poultice.

All on a fighting class.

And you aren't using preps to achieve this.
Take elf dagger defender warrior with striking legacy...
It will be very hard to take you down fast because of resist. If you break off you can heal without cost (effectively) and resist synergies with your healing ability. Meanwhile you will be applying maladictions and your legacy charging up. If people try to gank you you have the edge that boosts concealed.

Your danger is getting entwined but even then you have striking and resistance going for you. Also being generally lagged is unhelpful if there is someone casting area spells but that can be addressed in several ways.

You can heal other ragers (obvious defensive use) and help them with their maladictions.

Synergies is a fancy way of saying that they don't actually have defensive abilities but you can create a build that's hard to kill. Which is fine. I'm not arguing that. I just believe there is a difference between being able to defend yourself and making a position or person defend-able.

To illustrate:

I take out a gun. I point it at your chest. What would you rather have right about now...a kevlar vest or a handful of band-aids?

OR

I take out a gun. I point it at you and start moving towards you. You have your hands raised above your head. What would you rather have... a secret trapdoor that opens up when you pull the hidden rope right above your hands which will plunge me into a pool of piranha ORRRRRRRR......a handful of bandaids?

Whoever created Defenders decided a handful of band-aids was better than actually making a person better suited to 'defending' a position.

This issue I believe was actually supposed to be addressed by the introduction of 'sappers' as another village choice but has never as far as I know gone beyond Thror and some titles for exceptional players.

Basically having a handful of bandaids is nice and can help keep a person alive but in terms of actual cabal warfare it is not very defensive.

As someone who has played more defenders than I can count over the span of over a decade I can say without question that field dressing/poiltice are very useful while raiding and when you end up in a fight far away from the village (which is why I say the skillset is better suited to scouts) but in terms of a sustained assault on the Big D - fairly useless due to the fact you can only use each ability once every few ticks...and you'll likely be dead way before that next tick comes around if you are already losing the fight. Plus the people you are fighting are used to people who can use heal potions, periapts, and actual healers. Defenders just don't stack up in the art of healing. It's niche.

Exactly why I'm sure most people in the above scenarios would rather have a kevlar vest or some sort of trsp or traps BEFORE getting shot in the first place.

A defender in my opinion should be able to fight groups of raiders. Their skills should reflect the intent to kill or repulse groups of enemies. What are you defending? The Village! From what? Invaders! Plural. Or singular for particularly tough necromancers/conjies.

Traps are defensive. Doubleblock is defensive. Critical strike w/the dispel thing is an example of 'defense through strong offense'. Maledicting entire groups of raiders is defensive because it forces them to be ON the defensive. Band-aids every few hours to repair the damage already inflicted isn't.

If you don't see how resist (Kevlar vest) coupled with a healing ability that ignores your protection, which both act to make fights last longer, enabling you to increasingly maladict your opponent's ability to fight while a legacy boosts your defense and attack and hinders the mobility of your enemy (deep breath) helps in defense then I can't see us finding common ground.

One of the biggest weaknesses of a villager is being battle ready. We often talk about CF PK with an underlying assumption that the only thing going on is the situation at hand. But villagers have incredibly low mobility.

Low mobility increases your likelihood to get stuck into a string of situations so rapidly you can't recover in between. This is one of the reasons that village powers can look so great in pre planned cage matches against lone folks but still put up epic number of deaths in reality.

Defending in the village can be a marathon cage match. Being able to unload tons of damage (berserker/scout) is not that great if you are dealing with three folks that can manage your damage output and have three times your HP. And out running 3 people when you want to retreat is a skill that really seperates the village vets from the rest.

A defender however can continuously replentish their HP. That allows them to be in a fight much much longer. Sometimes time works in your favor, especially when your opponents have a lot of timers on key things like damage redux.

If you think about it, the tough raids in any situation are the ones where a lone defender just won't go down, giving the inners more and more time to do their work or for a third party to maybe take advantage of your situation, or allies to arrive, etc. If you are up against someone who is just going to roll over you, you don't raid in the first place.

nt

nt

My point is that Moligant's comparison is silly in CF context. Most attacks in CF aren't single hit kill. Moligant is correct in saying that if he pulls a gun and shoots you in the chest, you should want the kevlar vest more than a bunch of bandages. But why should Battle defenders care about that? They aren't in that situation.

I'm unsure why we are even talking about resist.

The initial post and subsequent post both mentioned that this was strictly about defender/scout abilites ONLY not being very defensive or scout-like in terms of their overall usage.

Defenders get:

Field dressing
Poultice
Double-block

Scouts get:

Spell evasion
Critical Strike
Discern Spell

Of the above abilitiess and ONLY the above abilities....

I made the argument that only double-block is actually a truly 'defensive' ability because it is the only ability a defender has that prevnts harm from happening in the first place. That is what the entire 'gun' analogy is about. Bandages are something you apply AFTER damage has been done which means your defense failed.

If we are talking about a fort with high walls and the attackers are using cannons, then your defense is the walls not the bricks and mortar lying around to fix them. Your walls are what prevent damage from actually making it to you. Any defensive placements out there like fire pits, etc are also defensive placements because they also keep the enemy from getting to you before damage is done to whatver position you are protecting.

In terms of defenders I then went on to argue that instead of being field medics (which they are) maybe it would fit their role better to give them abilities that actually enabled them to defend a position better. By defending a position it is meant to allude to making it so that the enemy has a much harder time advancing on a point in order to inflict damage. In the village these points are the giant and Big D.

Things like traps and maladictions that can hit an entire group of raiders would accomplish this while actually making the idea of a defender fit the reality a bit better. As they are now defenders don't really defend a position. They allow themselves and other villagers to stay in the fight a bit longer yes...but defense isn't just about having your best tank stay in a fight, its about creating a situation where the enemy doesn't have a clear line of sight to their objective.

Healing people puts off the inevitable during a losing fight. My ideas would provide real defense options. And finally I didn't even say get rid of field dressing and poultice. I said give them to scouts who thematically fit the idea of being able to heal themselves and others better.

My gripe isn't with the abilites but the theme of a scout and defender and the abilites given to support that theme.

As for scouts I also mentioned I'd want for them to keep spell evasion and discern spell. The only ability of theirs that doesn't fit their theme imho is critical strike. I'd give that to defenders.

So in the end game you don't actually LOSE any abilities...they just get switched around a bit...and you GAIN some....so I am confused what the big deal is and don't see anything 'silly' about wanting titles and abilities in an RP game where you are trying to pretend to be something to actually fit together. Calling myself a defender simply doesn't make sense when the abilites I'm trained in make me a medic who should be kept out of a fight to better insure people are getting healed.

My ideas:

A dwarven figure surveys the enemy who is slowly approaching the huts of the village of Battle. To his right is the mighty Destructor. The dwarf's gaze switches to his left where a hidden group of archers awaits his signal. With a nod he steps forward and yells 'FIRE!' and instantly a swarm of arrows darkens the sky and descends upon the invaders setting some afire while others fall to the poison-tipped arrows.

Still the enemy remains undeterred and continues to advance. The archers needing more time to fire again retreat bacjk into the shadows of the huts.

The dwarven defender steps forward axe in hand and charges at the remnants of the enemy force. As he sprints forward he steps upon a plate only known to defenders of the Village which triggers a the release of heavy rocks from the hills surrounding the village to rain down upon the enemy force.

As the brsve dwarven defender swings his axe at the brutish looking fire giant anti-paladin in front of him he notices the fire giant step through a small wire and ducks as a spear crashes through the air straight into the chest of the anti-paladin impaling him. As he ducks a drow leaps from the shadows to strike at the dwarf but a young defender leaps in front of him and blocks the first two blows before they can land giving the dwarf time to swing both of his axes together catching the would-be assassin in the chest with a spectacular spray of blood that leaves the drow incredibly wounded and open for the disembowlment that the dwarf delivers next.

Staring at the unharmed dwarven defender and seeing other villagers begin to arrive, the enemy forces retreat to recover from their wounds and plot anew upon slaying the Destructor.

Current:

A dwarven figure surveys the enemy who advances slowly on his position. To his right is the mighty Destructor. The dwarf readies his axes and shouts a warcry as the enemy forces engage him. A fire giant anti-paladin swings his own flaming axe and the cut bites deep but the dwarf is sturdy and returns with his own attack. A drow leaps from the shadows and attempts to plunge a dagger deep into his back but fails to hit anything fatal but does leave the dwarf bleeding heavily. As he prepares to retreat north to where the Destructor stands the anti-paladin mutters a spell and he feels very sick.

Managing to escape the first engagement, the dwarf quickly slaps on some field dressings and a poultice and he immediately feels better. The sickness is stopped and though he is still pretty hurt he can continue to fight. And soon he gets that chance as the fire giant and drow assassin quickly press their advantage. As the Destructor bellows and charges at the assassin who quickly perfoms a rising kick that manages to hit the Destructor and the dwarf the fire giant bashes the dwarf sending him sprawling to the ground.

The dwarf fights on bravely but it is a losing battle as for every blow he strikes the attackers merely retreat and switch positions and attack anew leaving little time to recover between bouts. Within a few hours the dwarf is simply too exhausted to even put another bandage on and soon after falls to the combined assault just as other villagers begin to arrive. As he loses consciousness he hears a loud thump and the head of the Destructor falls next to him.

My idea:

Thokmin was exhausted. He had been traveling for what seemed days seeking the enemies position so he could report it back to the others at the village of Battle.

He was currently in Seantryn Modan. He had been told by a sympathizer to the village of Battle that a mage he had been hunting had passed through the city recently.

After questioning a few other sympathizers, he was able to determine that the mage may have headed somewhere into the jade mountains. Taking a shortcut he knew of he first checked the elven vaults but did not find anyone there.

Then he headed into the Wastes of Non-Veil near the fabled mountains that shrouded the tower of Trothon. It was then that he heard the voices upon the desert wind. Speaking in low tones a trio of magi rested in a cave discussing how to best the yellow dragon who claimed the caves as its home.

Thokmin grinned and hid in the shadows of the cavern. Using his new training he sends a message back to the village without stepping out of the shadows.

However one of the magi, apparently a shapeshifter changes shape and suddenly roars a warning. Noticing that the other two mages bear the marks of the Nexuns, Thokmin assumes the other magi can understand the roar and prepares himself. One of the mages chants a spell and glowing purple fog fills the cave but as it reaches where Thokmin hides he quickly moves and manages to evade the spell.

The other mage chants and a wall of fire erupts in the cave managing to strike Thokmin and bring him out of hiding despite his best efforts to evade this new spell. Quickly the shapeshifter turns into a giant snake and leaps upon him burying its poisonous fangs into him. Feeling suddenly sickened and with all three magi looking at him with murder in their eyes, he retreats through the desert with the trio giving chase.

Reaching the jade mountains he looks over his shoulder then plunges through the same hidden shortcut that leads him through a tunnel that brings him to the foothills of the jade mountains. Taking a moment he throws on a poultice ans a field dressing just as an unnaturaly large falcon plunges from the sky at him. Feeling refreshed and ready to fight he quickly throws dust in the eyes of the shapeshifter, blinding it and follows that up with a few kicks.

As he fights the shapeshifter he can see the other two magi quickly approaching and wonders if he has time to finish the fight when from over a hill a couple of loincloth wearing berserkers run towards the advancing magi bellowing warcries and baring their swords and axes. They got the message! And thanks to that shortcut and the quick healing he was able to do upon himself he was able to stay in the fight long enough to see help arrive.

nt