A skill, spell, power, ability, call it what you may.

I started playing again after a long absence. Rangers are my GOTO class for something quick and I'm about to play a couple. Having said that I'm surprised that after all these years they still do not have anything at hero but instead find their skill,spell limit at ~45, for all terrain,expertise combinations.

In the old days rangers were fun due to player numbers, not not so much IMO. The case can definitely be made that they are average at hero, even underpowered. Going purely by numbers, pbfs and hours played, using the lists at Dios, Nreisshe still reigns supreme after all these years and one can count the number of rangers that were scary at hero using one hand. All felar. All Outlander and one Scion. Chronologically, the top three come in on 2005, 2010 and 2012. All had some of the best items in the game. Al had extra powers, leadership, tattoos.

These are not numbers that correspond to a broken, overpowered, overabused at hero, class. Thoughts?

I've posted before on why I think rangers are meh. Lack of skills, having about half of other melee classes.

http://forums.carrionfields.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=6&topic_id=44760&mesg_id=44760

My easy(?) fix is to give them a second terrain at hero. I'd limit it to a related terrain, for example bedouin can go plains or mountain, marshdweller can go forest or mariner. And initial terrain skill/spell loses stick.

They just play a lot different to warriors. Besides learning how to
use your skills (which warriors have to do too) and combat tactics,
you need to develop an awareness about your prey that is unlike
anything else that other classes demand. Opponent habits,
favorite spots, effective traps, how he's going to try and escape,
ambush before snare and risk escape or wait until he's snared?
Maybe you don't ambush at all and open with murder, let him
beat up on you for a while, let him smell blood, build his confidence.
These are all factors that are present on nearly every fight at 51.

And since we're talking about skills, how about properly learning
to use snare/waylay/ambush? I've seen experienced CF players
not have a clue about snare placement or the mechanics of snare
lag and how it synergizes with waylay or when it's appropriate
to use ambush instead of waylay. Forget 'elite items', tattoos and
extra powers. If you can't take advantage of these basic skills
(not saying you can't) then you will never reach the power maximum
that the class offers.

== Addendum ==

If I was going to give rangers an extra skill at 51, it would be something
that plays into the hunting/trapping aspect of the class e.g. A skill
that takes away one of the directions that prey can flee to after
being ambushed, for 2exit rooms or more. So, laying a snare before
a 2exit room and using this skill successfully would guarantee that
your prey fled to the snare. A 3exit room trap would give you 50%
chance of snaring someone assuming direction one flees to is random.

Rangers as they are can be extremely deadly at all levels, and you have described exactly how to do just that.

Just isn't.

nt

It's just a slower playing class that performs much better if they take the time to setup their fights on their terms versus just running in and trying to kill everyone in their pk range where ever they find them. I think it is a game balance type thing that the classes that can be more survibable tend to be less lethal.

What types of rangers have you been playing? I am a very firm believer that ranger is 100% competitive at hero, and can even do it outside of the wilds. The big issue is that most people who play rangers aren't willing to step out of the wilds to go after those pks which leads to no fights since a lot of people wont actively go into the wilds after a pk on rangers.

>Having said that I'm surprised that after all these years they
>still do not have anything at hero but instead find their
>skill,spell limit at ~45, for all terrain,expertise
>combinations.

That's because when we revamped rangers we were of the mindset that by the time you're in the mid-40s, you've got heroes in range and it's okay if you have your full set of tools.

I guess we could move all those skills up to 51, but why?

But one reason to move skills up to 51 is to stop them being used against a level 33, say.

Don't forget that a 42 may not have to face heroes and will definitely have people below 42 in pk.

When this isn't the case, then it would be fair to discuss what new tools to make them more directly competitive they would need.

Right now finishing the last touches on shamans and revisiting thief skill point costs, levels, the function and cost of splashing hybrids for utility over raw power at the end of thief paths, without requiring devious versatility or level 42 to do so, and more explicitly explaining poison mechanics and how to compare ingredient power levels without concoction trial and error (no new edges, make thieves more versatile without going on an easter egg hunt or a ####ing lab experiment every time they haven't played a trapper or poisoner in six to twelve months) should be close to the top of the list.

Brainstorming to make cabal wars more interesting to participate in despite the inability to kill the inner would also be a higher priority, the veil doesn't count and Village has too strong an effect on it just by logging in and having a level over 40.

New area revamps that have occurred for older areas should also be critical so you can remove more nonsense we've taken for granted over the years like hidden containers in Ysigrath and southeast of Arkham.

Expanding bard instrument variety and tactics at all levels would also be more productive.

Rangers are annoying enough when you actually need to get at something they are guarding and already offer an extremely strong option for players who need to AFK frequently while still logged in (e.g. most of the older cohort) they don't need more ways to actively come after people. Leave that to druids. When they don't virtually require mark of the prey or maelstrom to hunt down, THEN you can think about making them stronger directly. While certain skills need to be looked at again with regard to their reliability and function (serpentkin and bearkin immediately come to mind) they should be largely left the hell alone. You obviously didn't see the recent imm-sanctioned perma combining a conjurer and pursuit mowing down every single fully prepared veteran on the MUD very very recently.

Another little tidbit is that evils need more access to readily available antipathy offensive options, severely reducing healing from external sources like coin spam and hero level heal spam (who have the mana to compete with a temporary heal nerf and would be forced to use lifeshield more often over sanc + rejuv) in order to increase overall action. If nothing else, to ensure a lowbie raider can actually make a raid and not spend two hours of playtime on a ####ing siege.

Focus on expanding options pre-35 so that gameplay is engaging enough to actually be able to find people who don't otherwise want to be found more easily and you'll have your key to quit the 'game begins at hero' problem.

Have to be crafty to do anything outside wilderness, or extra crafty to make people come to you.

Rangers are terrain dependent, yes. How is that relevant to my proposal? The class dynamics at hero with current playerbase beg for in my humble opinion updates to the class, to make it more competitive in cabal wars.

Are there counterexamples? Of course. I mentioned three of them.
Give a hero Outlander/Scion ranger insects, a full set of felar items, a cabal edge that gives ridiculous amounts of damage, a tattoo that muddles, whatever steaks Nreisshe had, strange bracers, immunity to fire and so on and they can be scary. Not so for the rest of us.

It isn't so much the gear. Isildur played one of those rangers and he boosted dam roll a lot with edibles etc.

Enough to kill my conjie masinger who was well geared before I came out of waylay lag. Think it was unspeaks and a few deva and game over. But the prepare added a lot to his gear. Any ranger can do that, if they can be bothered, because the preps are all just lying around in lowbie areas.

Did Isildur play Nreisshe, Paraloiut, Nyst? All cabal leaders, elite gear, extra powers.

You dying like that means that you made a newbie mistake, you were unprotected. Any ranger can kill like that. This is definitely not the rule at hero range cabalwars.

Take Empire or Scion vs any non-exceptional based on the factors I mentioned ranger. When was the last time any competent imperial hero was scared of a run of the mill hero ranger?

>It isn't so much the gear. Isildur played one of those
>rangers and he boosted dam roll a lot with edibles etc.
>
>Enough to kill my conjie masinger who was well geared before I
>came out of waylay lag. Think it was unspeaks and a few deva
>and game over. But the prepare added a lot to his gear. Any
>ranger can do that, if they can be bothered, because the preps
>are all just lying around in lowbie areas.

Competent imperial can face many things. Why would they not tactically face a 'run of the mill' hero ranger.

I don't understand your argument.

That is like saying a freshly ranked shapeshifter without gear, wands, and familiarity with their skiills/form combo should be able to compete with a developed battle rager.

It just doesnt happen.

I had multiple outlanders on me, preventing me from getting rid of spores and thorn heart. Everywhere I went they piled on me. So I went to khardraths sanctum to the fire plane. When I came out I suspected they might be waiting in hamsah for me to kill me in the portal lag, because they were all visible. I walked out as a result and the ranger snared me. When you walk out it strips you of protections. So either way I could have died without a chance to fight back. I also had twitchy edge but apparently the ranger knew how to avoid triggering it (which I also know, based on experience).

Ranger strength is learning the habits of the enemy and then using that to get the kill. No one will keep and up when just moving from a to b along a rarely traveled route. It's not like walking to fort. Also some rangers builds are a bit unbalanced. Like swamp explorer (particularly if they get outtie leadership)

nt

Isildur was sulye?

No.
Rangers are such an annoying enemy already. They are a hiding class so most of them shouldn't be overpoweringly strong.

If anything, I'd propose to add more high-level talismans, wands and scrolls.

nt

It is not "substantial and/or relevant". You are the one asking for opinions and opinions you got.

The case you make of the class not being overpowered does not mean it is underpowered or deserving of attention.
There were a few rangers that I've seen recently that did quite well on their own.
For example, Iklahn who has the #5 pk wins as a non-felar ranger (if you sort it by rangers).
If anything, I would say it could be argued a human or halfie could use a boost to being a ranger.
But suggesting that a class needs to be rebalanced (adding skills) because there have not been
powerhouses since Nreisshe is not a very good argument. A powerhouse is a rarity.
If it were hard data that rangers were under performing every other class at every level, I would be inclined to agree with you.

It depends on the player as to how deadly a character is in general. Boosting rangers will not change that.

Spoils of hunt let Nreisshe make steaks with little stat buffs out of corpses of PC's Nreisshe had killed.

Ghost:cf-logs johnny$ grep -Ri spoils cf-nyst*

cf-nyst-01-11-2013.txt:Skill: 'spoils of the hunt' modifies damage roll by 20 for 6 hours.

plus stat boosts that are in no way minor ;p

I was extremely surprised when Lyristeon gave it to me and I didn't have
a lot of time to really work it, but it was well timed since I'd recently given away the
majority of my items and was fighting pretty much naked. This skill alone allowed
me to continue to be a menace.

As I said to tongni, I'd rather have pyromaniac than spoils of the hunt and was
angling for it in one of my role entries ^^ but we don't always get what we want
do we?

Rangers are brutally deadly at the low to mid ranks because people don't have damage reduction or massive hit points and are forced into the wilderness more often.

Unless you can stack lots of mechanical damroll boosting (felars have a leg up here) it's very hard to get the job done at hero in the limited opportunities you have.

They're certainly not competitive outside of the wilderness. You'd have to go afk to die to most rangers outside of the woods. A paladin has more offensive capability than a ranger outside of the woods.

I think it will be very very hard for non-giant ranger to kill
anyone who knows the game at 51, outside the wilderness.

What are the options? Unreliable bearcharge, spamming serpent strike
(hah), calling lightning for the finish, wasps/mosquitos (at 51? ####ing forget it).
I can see enlarged cloud/frost giant landing kills with bearcharge, but that is niche.

The ranger class is built around hunting and trapping, and these aspects
are completely lost outside the wilderness, unless you can bait your prey
to follow you there.

See my previous post for wilderness.

There are certainly ranger builds that offer essentially the same punch in civilized as they do in the wilds. They also just so happen to be some builds that most people do not consider 'good'. There are tons of ways you can pk people in civilized as a ranger.

Why build a ranger for civilized PK when you could build a warrior or an assassin?

It's true that if your goal is "kill in civilized" then warrior or assassin is better. However, if you want to be "god in wilderness" + "able to kill some in civilized" then ranger is the better option. I agree that many ranger builds can kill in civilized. As with everything, it's about picking battles.

Even Matrik has afk-killed people in civilized as a ranger! Well, basically AFK since I'm terrible. Don't bash a staff-wielding ranger when you're an orc I guess.

I've had great success killing in civilized as ranger pre-30, but we all know after 30 I'm basically a free kill.

NT

Bedouin def shines as a can pk in civilized. I have a couple of different hunter builds that I think would fit that bill nicely as well =P

But they can't lag in civilized.

Hunters, yes. Archery only requires open space to work, right?

At the end of the day a ranger has the better defenses than an assassin (shield block, parry, dodge, but wider range of weapon choices). And better passive offense for most expertise (third attack and dual wield but again with more weapon choices that lean offensive).

The thing that they lack is reliable lag, maldict, or burst damage outside of the wilds. But they also gain the ability to use scrolls/talismen.

It is certainly tougher to seal kills without burst or lag, or the ability to drastically affect the defenses of your opponent (maldiction) but you do have a mv speed advantage in most places, in general you have the ability to attack opponents mv's (entangle) and you can still use many of the tactics that human sized mid range warriors use to win fights (dirt/disarm, whittling damage with serpent strike) and you have the added flexibility of moving into cover if you get in trouble or using cover to help pick your fights.

Not sure if you were mentioning that as just a ranger tool to seal kills or were referencing it as part of your comments about rangers being fine in civilized areas.

tra-la-la

I don't know all the criteria, but I've herbed a few spots in Imperial Lands. Eastern Road. Civilized part of Ostalagiah.

Success rate sucks, but it can be done in a pinch. I'd guess my explorer had better success, but haven't needed to try enough to really tell.