Currently the raiding/retrieval system by my opinion is out of whack. I had a view suggestions on changes and maybe other players can provide feedback.

1. How about add a feature where out-of-range players can somehow stall or even hamper raiders they can't touch. Like for instance, maybe every 24 hours in-game you can boot someone away from the guardian for a period of time? Maybe also a detriment to this affect is a negative penalty for the user?

2. Maybe make it so that when a out-of-range person comes to retrieve... as many defenders there are present, the guardian gets a damage bonus or a dam reduction bonus?

3. Lastly, the inner guardian can summon a low level mob to assist him? I mean I can't think of a situation in a similiar setting.. where a young raider comes to a house and raids it and all the high rank members of that organization just sits and watch.

I understand the biggest rebuttle will be that maybe you should hire more active players of all ranges. While that may be the case; we have to consider the smaller numbers and that everyone for the most part strives for Herodom for the action. Just my two cents..

Thanks,

>I understand the biggest rebuttle will be that maybe you
>should hire more active players of all ranges.

Yup.

I can't force people to agree with me that the game doesn't begin at hero, but I have no desire to encourage that belief either. If anything I'd be more inclined to give lowbies tools to slow raiding heroes down. :)

Is that some heroes take no risks for their cabal beliefs. Knowing that a lowbie can retrieve risk free is part of the reason for it. I'm not talking about suicidal attempts. I'm talking about 1 v 1 vs someone that can't permalag. Hence I'd like to see a morale pen when high levels let a lowbie do the work. It's a small prove to pay for having your cabal powers back without taking any risk at all, but it is a price.

It's the wrong dynamic I think that you're trying to enforce. Retrieving should be easier than attacking. Lowbies should have value in a cabal (or they'd be pressured constantly to power-rank). The side who outnumbers the other side should not be also given mechanical advantages as well - bandwagons are bad enough as it is.

If anything, I'd make it so that you can't have all your cabal powers unless you're holding someone else's item of power. Hence - mechanical incentive to raid. Simultaneously, I'd make it harder to gank lone defenders down (more no-summon rooms, maybe some kind of auto-word if your health gets too low...something to give incentive to try more than a superficial attempt to defend). Last I checked the typical dynamic was 3vs1 minimum to raid and defenders really just show their face for a bit to seem brave but it's such a bad situation most of the time that they don't hang around for a "real" fight. I don't think they're in the wrong...this is a game where depending on your class 3/4 of your power might be in your gear set.

>Is that some heroes take no risks for their cabal beliefs.

They are taking a risk: the risk that the opposing cabal will actually hunt them while they have no powers and are likely outnumbered, instead of camping at the cabal HQ and waiting for them to walk into a gang.

Only people who log off or switch characters when things get rough take no risk.

Taking someone's cabal item does give you a significant advantage; but it doesn't automatically entitle you to kill the opposing cabal's people on your terms.

I'm almost always the solo guy against many enemies. I don't walk into suicidal situations but I will make an attempt even if it is unlikely I will have the item back without being driven off with a very small chance of dying. Sometimes other chars who I can't permalag won't even attempt a retrieval one v one. You'll note that the suggestions I made about chamo are designed to reduce the suicidal situations frequently faced.

The hero in question is not taking a risk if he just sends lowbies to retrieve because the odds of him being found without cabal powers are negligible.

You'll note my suggestion doesn't say that the hero has to be the one to deal the killing blow. It is a morale penalty for not contributing at all.

A morale pen is a small penalty as an alternative to suicide. It is a more significant penalty as an alternative to attempting retrieval one v one, potentially with lowbies to finish the job that you helped them start.

You seem to think I'm advocating free frags for my benefit. Far from it. I'm looking to see people give something in return for cabal powers.

As an example there was a 2 (maybe even 3) virtued Maran leader that told an Invoker that they weren't going to attempt retrieval against a solo pre-lightning control ap of mine unless the voker would frost shield them first. The neutral voker was disgusted enough to tell me about the conversation. Realistically the paladins odds of success (defiance plus shield of light) were very high and chances of failure very low. What I expect is to see a downside to people not stepping up to their responsibilities. The downside is small and can be avoided in many cases (eg by starting the attempt if no one is around and getting out in time, but at least making a contribution to what lowbies are finishing, since a hero can do a lot very quickly. Could even post lowbies as scouts to warn when to run away.

I am a lowbie and likely to be so for some time. Since I've never made a trip to a cabal to loot a hero as a lowbie, if anything I stand to gain personally if heroes do avoid even minimal risk and let lowbies cover for them instead.

"I'm almost always the solo guy against many enemies"

Thing is - that's the exception not the rule. There's a couple classes better suited to survivability (at offensive costs) but outside of that it's exceptionally rare - and the reason it's exceptionally rare is because facing off against an NPC + 2 PCs gives you a pretty good chance of dying when playing anything that's not swimming in damage reduction and lag mitigation.

In fact - if I'm a warrior and I've got a buddy and there's a retrieval...that's more often than not "easy kill" territory - not a viable strategy for people who have gear-based builds.

I'd argue it depends a lot on the kind of warrior you are, but against melee classes I'll grant you that you will potentially be able to deliver a lot of parting blows as a defending warrior, and with a shaman or paladin will probably be able to lag the other guy a fair bit too.

I've generally found though that you can very often retrieve before the cavalry turn up. If we are talking about situations with lowbies your lowbies can scout for you too. Numerous times I've managed to retrieve against big groups I couldn't hold the item against just before I was in and out before they got back. If you don't show right at the start, they often decide to take advantage of their big group to go exploring or grab some gear, and then often only one guy comes back initially to defend.

I'd like to see lowbies able to perform some minor functions during a raid on their cabal.

1) Inspire the guardians. No dad wants to get his ass kicked in front of his kids, so he'll fight harder - same premise here. If the lowbies are in the room, the guardian will get a bless or haste effect.

2) Supply the guardians. If the lowbie hands the guardian a potion or pill, the guardian will quaff or eat it during combat. This may be OP, I don't know.

3) Distract the attacker. By throwing eggs or possibly feces at the attacking party, the presence of the lowbies in the room will occasionally cause an attacker's attack (nice, I know) to fail.

Pfft. Come on man, it's all about offensive firepower in raid situations. It's not like Thorin would send in some snivelling inexperienced hobbit to raid a dragons horde instead of sending in an experienced fighter.

/sarcasm

That said, I would LOVE to see thieves have a shot at stealing a cabal item instead of having to straight up fight for it. I realize they can steal it shortly after someone else fought for it, but can you imagine how paranoid people would be if a thief could sneak past an outer guardian and snag their item back?

except that is pretty much the only think that drives hero pk.

As it stands now (well always), if you are vastly outnumbered, you get the added kick in the nuts of not having your cabal powers either. You can just quit, and have the 8 people opposing you talk about what coward you are, or try to retreive, and have those 8 people talk about how great they are because they killed you, or just try to hide for 30 minutes or so and quit off, none of which are particularly enjoyable.

Making it harder for a cabal to get it's item back (penalyzing out of ranger retreivers, etc) just hurt the cabals that are already hurting. If outlander was holding the scales 24/7 (I know impossible because they don't have Hughli anymore), I doubt this player would be making this suggestion.

It's certainly better than what you were used to at DM.

DM.. that horrible wretched game.. watered down version of CF.. tsk.

If someone lower level than you retrieved your item you get a big hit to morale owing to feelings of inadequacy, with a long timer (200 hours, say). Not stackable though, and if you retrieve any existing ones are cleared.

I would also make it so that it won't be applied if you were fighting the relevant outer within 2 ticks of it dying, nor will it be applied if you were a ghost within the last 10 ticks.

1. Outlander already has this and Tribunal does too if they are wanted. I do not think booting them for 24 hours makes sense and is entirely OP. I'm not really one that thinks we should hamper people retrieving any more than already.

2. Some cabals already have this, bard songs, frenzy, aura, etc. Support classes are amazing.

3. That is more of a balance for the inner guardian. I think the Tribunal guardian already does this. It is a higher level mob, I think.

My own Retrieval Idea:
I really think that there should be a reason/bonus to retrieve your item under bad circumstances.
Not just +morale when you retrieve. Maybe something like +1 dam +1 hit +10hp +10mp for being
in the party that gets the killing blow for a long duration. It doesn't have to be huge.
Although, alternatively it might be awesome for it to be something like a +10 dam +10 hit +50hp +50mp
for 7 hours or something like that. There are so many other temp bonuses that could take
its place not just +dam, +hit, etc. Could be cabal specific with cool names.
Like "Berserker's Fervor", "Stalwart Defender", and "Scout's Resurgence" for Battle examples.